Wednesday, 19 March 2008

Redefining Morality UCG Style

The latest glossy issue of The Good News is out, and feature writer John Ross Schroeder introduces the keynote article with classic Spanky-speak:

Today the major English-speaking nations watch as a storm of problems draws ever nearer, a storm created by hostile forces that blurred and weakened their sense of morality. Does the Bible indicate where we will go from here?

Stirring stuff. But what about the non-English speakers John? The French, German, Dutch, Danes, Irish, Chinese, Lebanese, Swahili? Oh, sorry, they're not nearly as significant are they? That's because they're not subsumed into the racist doctrine of British Israelism (UCG Edition). Maybe that's their good fortune; after all whoever heard of morality problems in Copenhagen or Amsterdam?

And of course the article concludes with an offer of the UCG publication The United States and Britain in Bible Prophecy. That thing should carry a mental health warning.

But to return to John's rhetorical question: "Does the Bible indicate where we will go from here?"

Short answer: no. The Bible doesn't mention "the major English-speaking nations." The reason is pretty simple; there were no English-speaking nations back then.

Yeah, but what about prophecy? Some folk just salivate at the thought that the Bible set out a road-map for the future in the long-ago.

People like former UCG minister Ronnie Weinland. Need one say more?

Here's what one scholar has to say on that subject:

[M]any people today associate prophecy with predicting the future. It is true that the messages that prophets carried often did bear on things about to happen, but to think of their messages as predictions is to distort their character. Rather, what prophets typically did was announce God's verdict or judgment, to be carried out soon, if not right away. Indeed, one of the most characteristic sorts of messages that prophets brought had an altogether legal ring to it, in which first the offending party's sin was announced and then God's punishment... he was reporting on a decision that had already been made, announcing the sentence just passed on high. (James Kugel, How to Read the Bible, 440)


It flatters our vanity (and in the case of BI strokes our ethnocentrism) to imagine that the Bible lays out history in advance with guess who at its centre. Morality is a universal issue, and the kind of nonsense that confuses it with ignorant speculative fantasies is - to suggest something John may never have thought of - just plain immoral.

44 comments:

Lyle said...

I remember being in a bible study which had a guest speaker, who held to the idea that we were racing down to doom in the end-times express. So I challenged him to find any prophecy which was being fulfilled at this time. He was a bit stunned. Eventually he stammered and said that Ezekiel chapter 36 and 37 where being fulfilled in the creation of the modern nation of Israel. Unfortunately for him I was quite familiar with that section (unlike anyone else he would teach). I challenged him with what those verses really said, showing him that the state of Israel was nothing like what was written there. Boy oh boy that shut him up fast. Love it.

tkach's $wiss Banker said...

I just read the E-N-T-I-R-E--YAWN--GN article. This John Ross Schroeder is a real Gas-bag. The article states that one third of Britons avoid tax by paying (contractors) cash. This is nothing new. The cash economy was instrumental in causing the collapse of Britain's welfare state in the 1970s (APPLAUSE). But the prize goes to non-Israelite Italy which has Europe's biggest underground economy.

tkach's bear-stearnes banker said...

It's amazing to see them still pushing that tired old discredited British-Israel crap. Let's start a letter writing campaign to the GN challenging this racist theory with History, Archaeology and DNA evidence.

Byker Bob said...

The so-called churches of God, as a culture, define "proof" as reading what their leaders write, and agreeing with it.

The types of shallow articles which are regularly trotted out in the Good News could only exist and survive in an environment where independent research and thought are forbidden or discouraged.

How else could a person conclude that one melting pot of Picts, Celts, Anglo Saxons, and Normans is Ephraim, while another melting pot is defined as Manasseh simply because a fraction of its colonial peoples decided to migrate from the first melting pot? It makes no sense at all from a logical standpoint, racial/genetic standpoint, or historical standpoint.

Then there's the matter of the Germanic tribes and their origins in the first place. How one Germanic tribe ended up being defined as Assyrian, literally having become race shifters, just boggles the mind.

Sadly, the ACOGs will never repudiate or revise their teachings on British Israelism, because it is the doctrine which makes tithe slaves. HWA discovered an ironclad "hook" to leverage people into embracing his entire system of false beliefs, and all of the ACOG franchises model their little marketing programs after what their master taught them.

This stuff is self-obvious to all of us here. No way would I even bother committing this to blogspace were it not for the fact that I'd really like to shake some people up, and make them think for once in their lives. The theory of evolution is far more substantial and believable than British Israelism. Yet, look which one the ACOGs repudiate, and which one they embrace!

BB

Anonymous said...

The major english speaking countries. What about India? Our medical doctor who is from India told me that more people in India speak english than there are Americans. In fact english is one of their official languages. English is one of the official languages of the Philippines as well. English is the official language of Singapore. Pakistan has two official languages, english and urdu.English is the official language of Nigeria. All major players in the world. Well now, could be the GN was talking about them too but I don't think so. You can non Google this with the World Almanac.

ripley said...

Ya gotta love it: "The Good News..."

and then, right on the cover:

"Why a Torrent of Trouble Threatens to Engulf Us."

And the bad news?

DennisDiehl said...

The "Good News" reminds me of the sign on the convent:

NO TRESPASSING
VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW
St. Francis Sisters of Mercy

I don't personally believe that there is really any such thing as prophecy. It's just human to want to know what they can't. Seems contrived to keep the masses looking fearfully into the future and for ways to preserve themselves physcially.

It is interesting to me how people who intend to spend eternity ruling and being the chosen heavenly ones seem to go all out in this life to keep from going. It's why I never saw why the "Place of Safety" was necessary in the whole scheme of things.

Daniel 11 is so detailed due to being written after the events "prophecied" which makes them darn accurate. Daniel 12 more generic as they don't know the end of the story.

Other prophecies fulfilled such as in Matthew's account of Jesus birth, are taken completely out of context and the story is written around the OT scripture. Midrash.

Lussenheide said...

The way HWA used to thunder it out was "the WHITE, English speaking peoples of the world". Hence, the Phillipines or Nigeria or India wouldnt count. The Good News is at least somewhat "politcally correct" enough to realize that keeping that "WHITE" word in their article would be totally unacceptable in todays world.

Well, I personally dont need to worry much, in spite of the fact that these poor English speaking folks and their nations are going to have some problems according to John Ross. Im off the hook because I live in Southern California and the official language here is SPANISH!

Since it appears that being English speaking is the magic linchpin that causes headaches and problems, ...I now hereby advocate MORE not less, illegal immigration, more Spanish speaking, and an annexation of California by Mexico.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

DennisDiehl said...

Please ask for our free booklet,

"The United Emirates and Bahrain Sand Dunes in Prophecy."

Learn where God has placed his blessings and how it will affect your life.

Questeruk said...

‘The cash economy was instrumental in causing the collapse of Britain's welfare state in the 1970s (APPLAUSE).’

Not actually true – It’s a bit off subject, but just curious why ‘tkach's $wiss Banker’ feels it’s a good thing if things such as ‘free health service to all’ had collapsed.

Is it better to have a system where they check your bank balance before deciding if they can treat you?

Incidentally I have contributed more into the UK Health service than I received out – but that is fine by me.

Anonymous said...

"Incidentally I have contributed more into the UK Health service than I received out – but that is fine by me."

And I am sure that it is doubly fine to those who haven't contributed but could- and who have received the benefits of it. I have no doubt that they appreciate your hard work- unless they have an American mindset, for in that case, they see it as your duty to support them and their right to receive it.

Socialism rules!




Paul

Tom Mahon said...

From the GN

JRS>>>>Today the major English-speaking nations watch as a storm of problems draws ever nearer, a storm created by hostile forces that blurred and weakened their sense of morality.<<<<

Who are the "hostile forces" John is referring to? When faced with problems, the easy option is to blame other people!

Yet Hollywood, in particular, has been churning out, for years, thousands of immoral films, which have had a devastating affect on the culture of the non-English speaking nations of the world. So who are the "hostile forces?"

JRS>>>Does the Bible indicate where we will go from here?<<<

It certainly does! But since JRS is writing for an apostate magazine, God will never tell him what the future actually holds for mankind.

However, Gavin will not be surprised that I disagree with him about whether the bible foretells the future. Any serious student of prophecy knows that many OT prophecies have been fulfilled and are documented in the NT, not to mention credible historical records.

Moreover, it surprising, if not puzzling, that Gavin prefers to believe James Kugel's biased interpretation of Scripture, rather than objectively examine the Scriptures for himself to arrive at a balance view of what the bible actually teaches about prophecy.

There is an rather odd tendency for those who have exited the WCG, not only to repudiate their former beliefs, but to throw the bible out of the window.

Anonymous said...

Tom proclaimeth: "There is an rather odd tendency for those who have exited the WCG, not only to repudiate their former beliefs, but to throw the bible out of the window."

They may not necessarily throw the bible out of the window, but certainly do toss a literalist interpretation and definitely herbie's interpretation of it right down the loo where it belongs. The bible is still literature even to an atheist, in fact the bible is the best source to use to disprove claims of its inerrancy, you may be surprised to hear yourself someday admit.

Using your own words against you, herbie could not have been revealed anything by God since his own interpretation of biblical 'prophecy' has failed miserably, 'you may be trembling to realize.'

You have to love a magazine that calls itself the "Good News" and is filled with nothing but bad from the front cover to the back.

Anonymous said...

Saw the following recently. A somewhat different perspective:

'...he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation' (Acts 17:26)

The concept of the persistence into the modern world of the people of ancient Israel is widespread through many Christian denominations. For many it is known as 'British Israelism', and this has given rise to a narrow perspective bordering - if not, for some, actual - racism. The reality is far different.

.....Believe the Scriptures and it is an imperative that at the 'end-time' - and especially near the return of Jesus - the Israel people will be prominent on the world stage. The challenge has been to identify them, given they have - apart from the House of Judah - lost their identity and have new names [see previous MiniStudies]

.....True it is that the people of Israel on the strength of the faith of the patriarch Abraham inherited the special favour of the LORD. Abraham alone - like his forebear Noah in his time - of all earth's inhabitants was willing to fully follow God's guidance and thus received special divine blessings for his posterity. It's a positive illustration of the Law of Consequences - not favouritism

.....Those blessings included material prosperity the fruits of which were to benefit all mankind, all peoples, the blessing passing along through Isaac. Esau was the latter's first-born but he sold his birthright (Hebrews 12:16) which passed to his brother Jacob (later named Israel). Only human misinterpretation has distorted God's apparent bias towards Israel, for all peoples are welcome to participate in the blessings. Israel alone of nations preserved the true faith, recorded for us in the Scriptures

.....There is a 'brotherhood of man' - for every person, every nation, derives from one person, Adam. The genetic inheritance from him includes every shade of skin colour, and post-Flood the genetic lottery cast up three dominant traits - focused in the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham and Japheth. Each was assigned territory in which to '...be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth'\ (Genesis 1:27-28, 9:1, Acts 17:26). Each was equal before the LORD, free to worship and serve Him - or not. Some genetic studies suggest that our first parents and their descendants until after the scattering of the populace at Babel were 'mid-brown'. Differentiation occurred by in-born genetic variation in the scattered smaller groups

.....Note that 'nationhood' in Biblical terms is not based on inherited physical characteristics but on cultural and religious identity, coupled with a dominant forebear (eg Shem). (Arabs consider Abraham's son Ishmael as their 'father'.) The descendants of Israel include an admixture of various peoples (Hosea 7:8), resulting from marriages down the centuries with non-Israelites. Hence the variety of physical characteristics - shape, size, colour. Nations which have been isolated - eg in India or in China - are more homogenous. The prohibition in Israel of racial intermarriage focused on the dangers of contamination by alien religion - not physical characteristics. That danger will change when the LORD at His return re-gathers the various Israelite peoples and leads them back, united, to the Land of Promise, restoring to them the true faith

.....Israel alone of ancient nations embraced that true faith. But their 'Constitution' enshrined the right of any non-Israelite to share in their polity and their blessings. That right was balanced by the 'alien's' responsibility to embrace Israel's laws and religion - with the same blessings accruing. Genetic differences - including skin colour - were not a factor: '...One law [Heb. torah] shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you' (Exodus 12:49). There was no 'multiculturalism' - one law for all

..... Modern Ephraim-Israel's cultural identity derives from the Biblical faith - just as the Islamic world of widely diverse races identifies with their god, Allah, and the Koran. Israel by whatever name - while retaining elements of its ancient faith largely because of the influence of the Bible - has exchanged God for Baal and lost its identity (cp Jeremiah 2:11). Ephraim-Israel strayed from their God. They do not to this day worship Him in truth, and have become '...not my people' (Hosea 1: ), losing the Israel name and blessings

..... The New Testament in no way encourages racial disharmony or prejudice. James condemns discrimination and 'respect of persons' (ch 2). Salvation is offered to all mankind, and for those in Christ there are no racial or social barriers (Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:28). Paul, however - in an echo of the teaching of Torah - warns of the dangers for the Christian of marriage with one who is not '...in the Lord' (I Corinthians 7:39)

tkach's $wiss Banker said...

Questefuk said...

"Incidentally I have contributed more into the UK Health service than I received out "

Good for you , all those immigrant Muslims taking over the UK and working in the CA$H ECONOMY , Stiffing the system, thank you from the bottom of their overstuffed wallets.

After double-stiffing the UK taxpayers by taking welfare & working for CA$H, the next thing will be riots by all those hordes of Nigerians, Morocans and Pakistani's - just like France.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mel said...

Yikes!
Are implying that the Herbert inculcated a proclivity in his followers of "reading into things" erroneously, and that the proclivity included the fact that it's alluring to think of one's self as a holder(and dispenser) of special, God-given knowledge?

Reminds me of a gal I knew who used to find special meanings in all kinds of things, whether numbers on license plates, or writing on billboards and on the sides of trucks, not to mention rocks on the ground.

Hey, if the armstrongites and such persons want to be "rock"-stars, it's just a mental problem they have.

OOPS!
UPDATE!
The Bible said a person would come and lead His people with a STRONG ARM!

Holy Cow!
That's FULFILLED PROPHECY!
Now I can be better than almost everyone else if I only believe that HWA was the Fulfillment of that "Prophecy" and do not resist the very GOD ALMIGHTY who is behind the Herbalicious W's "work"!

Har har!

Now, I TRULY understand the TRUTH and I can be a RULER in the WORLD TOMORROW after understanding and accepting the teachings of the TRUTH-FILLED Herbalicious W!

Corky said...

There is an rather odd tendency for those who have exited the WCG, not only to repudiate their former beliefs, but to throw the bible out of the window.

Not odd at all, HWA proved to us that there is no immortal soul and there is no eternal hell-fire. So, without that scare tactic, who cares?

Plus, we know we don't have to worry about 1975 in Prophecy or a place of safety or the lake of fire, because all of that is HWA's interpretation and we know his interpretations are all bogus.

We know that the Bible cannot be understood by anyone by the fact of their being 34,800+ sects of Christendom all preaching a different interpretation.

Everything has turned out to have a natural explanation (even though it may not be totally convincing to everyone) so we don't need to call in the supernatural to answer any questions concerning our world or universe.

We know from geology that a worldwide flood never happened and really, people have known it for 200 years and that blows the book of Genesis all to hell. It's not that people are ignorant of those facts - it's that they are in denial of the obvious.

We now know from DNA that man came from Africa and was not created in Mesopotamia.

True that modern folks are twisting the Bible to make it all an allegory so that it is still relevant today but the thing is, Jesus thought it was literal. Then there's the fact that it being allegory is not what was taught for thousands of years - on pain of death if you didn't believe it.

For those of us who have thrown the Bible out the window, it is odd that anyone can seriously take anything a Tom Mahon or anything that the "scriptures" says as any kind of truth or evidence of anything.

Anonymous said...

swiss banker said: "After double-stiffing the UK taxpayers by taking welfare & working for CA$H, the next thing will be riots by all those hordes of Nigerians, Morocans and Pakistani's - just like France."

yep - Just like France and Germany, the British are now reaping the "rewards" of African and Middle Eastern colonialism.

Just as we Americans are feeling the effects of poorly applied hegemony.

Anonymous said...

"Just like France and Germany, the British are now reaping the "rewards" of African and Middle Eastern colonialism."

But the British spread freedom, just like America! What are you, a liberal commie? They riot because they hate the freedoms we have! Wait, I applied that talking point to the wrong situation.




Paul


Paul

Anonymous said...

Paul,

I think your response was tongue-in-cheek but to clarify; I feel we can do what we do, much better. That's all. There is a better way to go about spreading freedom. Democracy doesn't work on 500 calories a day. It requires self-sufficiency.

I very much doubt anyone has ever considered me a liberal (Though I am backing Obama so far) and I know for a fact no one has ever called me a commie....them's fightin' words!

Anonymous said...

Mel commented:
"Reminds me of a gal I knew who used to find special meanings in all kinds of things, whether numbers on license plates, or writing on billboards and on the sides of trucks, not to mention rocks on the ground."

Hey Mel, I can't help but wonder if she ever explained the number 69 to you? :-))

Anonymous said...

"I feel we can do what we do, much better. That's all. There is a better way to go about spreading freedom. Democracy doesn't work on 500 calories a day. It requires self-sufficiency."

Exactly. And spreading freedom cannot be accomplished by toppling the governments of sovereign nations and/or supporting/installing/bribing dicatators (who we topple depending upon the weather).



Paul

kiwi said...

To anonymous: with your "somewhat different perspective" - good post, you covered in more detail some points I made recently. Creation scientists (yes I know: gasp, shock, horror from the atheists here) state the different skin colours etc derive from natural selection genetic processes following migration round the world and the subsequent smaller gene pool of isolated communities. Whoever invented the concept of "race" should be held to account: there are no races, only families deriving from common ancestors.

lyle: I'm interested that you feel Ezekiel 36 and 37 can't be talking about the modern state of Israel - perhaps this is not the forum for it, but I'd be interested to know what arguments you advance to demolish that idea? Seems a whole lot more likely to me than having anything to do with Britain and America or a physical resurrection.

Finally why are there so many Anonymouses here? It's easy enough to pick a name and use it consistently, with no real loss of anonymity if that is important.

Neotherm said...

I know that many of you do not find the Bible authoratative, but I will strike a Bible note anyway. If BI is false, and it is, there is really no certain mention of the United States and Great Britain in the pages of the Bible.

The OT which contains most of the prophecies is a book principally, almost entirely, about the Jews. Some feel that in the Book of Revelation the references to Bablylon may point to the United States. The Tribulation is not about us, it is about the Jews. It is a time of Jacob's trouble. No doubt we will experience collateral damage.

The United States is just another Gentile nation from this perspective -- and Gentile nations and empires come and go. The US and BC are hardly important.

Moreover, the Celts have identified themselves as descending from Gomer, hence, Cymry. Hoeh claimed in the Compendium that Catholic monks altered genealogies to hide the identity of Israel. I do not recall any foundation for this. I think he just plucked it out of the air. His argument was teleological.

The Anglo-Saxons claim descent from Gomer and Magog.

There is hardly any mention of Gomer and Magog after the book of Genesis. As one Rabbi wrote, at the time of some of the early Biblical events, the Celts were just a bunch of wandering plunderers up around the Black Sea.

Morality among Armstrongists is also differently valued. For most of us in the Christian community, morality is a means of preserving community and treating others with dignity.

For Armstrongists, morality is a means of measurement. It is used to judge and condemn people. Morality is the stick that you use to batter others. It is just like Paul said of The Law, it was glorious but there was no life in it. Because of human falleness its only function came to be to point out sin.

But this all plays well in Cincinnati. It spins up the lay members and keeps the wheels turning and the lights on. This is their business after all.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

"Weinland Ueber Alles".

Or should that be "Rheinland Ueber Alles?"

Remember,there are only about 20 more shopping days till the balloon goes up, according to Ron.

Get those emergency supplies stashed away.

All have a Happy Oester(Reich)if you see what I mean.

Jorgheinz

Baashabob said...

Neo,
I agree with you that BI is false. While it doesn't take a lot of effort to disprove each of the multi-faceted parts of the BI argument, I like to cut to the chase and disprove BI, and much of Armstrongism with it, which just two or three scriptures and a few points of logic.

1. For those who look to the scriptures as an authority, I believe all will agree that the OC was an agreement between the Creator and the nation of Israel, and not with anyone else. Deut.5:3

2. Deut.28 lays out what would happen if they (Israel) kept their part of the bargain, and also what would happen if they didn't. Again, I think everyone would agree that they failed miserably and didn't keep their part.

3. Deut.28 says that if they didn't keep the agreement they would be scattered among all the nations, from one end of the earth to the other. (vs.64)

4. Other scriptures tell us that when Christ returns he will gather the Israelites from the four corners of the globe where they were scattered.

Now for any BI enthusiasts out there I challenge you to prove from scripture that God did not keep His word, and gathered the Israelites back into identifiable nations long before He said He would. If He has done that, then your God is a liar, and you can have no faith in anything that He says.

End of argument!

Bob E.

DennisDiehl said...

The alleged tribes of Israel are no more special than anyone else on the planet. That whole story has gotten way too much press the last 2000 years.

Tomorrow is the Equinox (equal night) so happy EASTER everyone. The Sun is on the cross of the celestial equator and ecliptic and comes up due EAST. The Sun has resisted the temptation to be lazy and taken away the darkness of the world! :)

I've heard that story somewhere.

Lussenheide said...

Some "GOOD NEWS" from the organization that publishes "THE GOOD NEWS"...

Just for your info...to those who are interested. Received info today
that UCG treasurer Tom Kirkpatrick has tendered his resignation.
Apparently this happened in December but has not yet been announced to
UCG personnel. It happened when the Regional Pastors were in Cincy for
a meeting. For some reason TK went ballistic with the RPs or some of
them at least. Jim Franks had to intervene and offer apologies. This
further angered TK so he resigned. And his resignation was accepted.
It officially takes effect end of fiscal year in June. So in the
meantime TK still comes in to the office and does his work. So I would
suppose that makes for an awkward, tense situation in the HO. Guess
things aren't too UNITED in the HO of United!!!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Neotherm said...

Bob E.: The problem with your argument is that the state of Israel exists and represents a gathering in of at least some of the Jewish population. At least, the Jews now occupy their homeland.
So if we interpret Biblical scripture in the manner that you suggest, there would be no nation of Israel.

It is an odd twist but the anti-Semites at Ambassador College used the in-gathering argument to prove that the people who presently occupy the land of Israel are really Gentiles. And by extension, most of the people who we know as Jews are then really Gentiles. And the real Jews, they believed, were some population located on the North American continent.

Crazy, huh.

-- Neo

Tired Skeptic said...

For those of us who have thrown the Bible out the window, it is odd that anyone can seriously take anything a Tom Mahon or anything that the "scriptures" says as any kind of truth or evidence of anything.

For those who haven't thrown the Bible out the window, none of us can take anything Tom Mahon says seriously: He misquotes Scripture, for heaven's sake! We sort of wonder what he might use a Bible for? Propping up a short leg on the coffee table, perhaps? Pressing flowers between the pages? Toilet paper?

As for the Good News, none of us should forget that it is the only CoG Magazine so far that had a criminal pointing a gun at the readers from the front cover.

And as for John Ross Schroeder, who can forget his Year 2000 article in, was it February 1999 Good News? The world was coming to an end. And we should blame the programmers! They were evil because they didn't plan ahead! So says your Bible... oops! Your Good News!

You know, the best thing United could do is just quietly chuck everything that Herbert Armstrong ever said and go forth without British Israelism, Herbert's false prophetic speculations of ill informed opinions turned into doctrine, walk away from the Classic WCG [as opposed to WCG lite] and concentrate on their gospel that there will be a second resurrection where everyone will get a chance.

Or they could just continue to have social gatherings devoid of spiritual meaning but rich with splendid potlucks on Saturdays and youth oriented... stuff for bored teens and young adults. 'Course, they already entertain themselves by going on cruises and out parasailing on the beach while the minister hides out in his ship's cabin. The UCG just needs to expand such things so they can fill up their "member" rolls with people having fun. An occasional prayer and mention of Scripture would be all that was needed to fulfill IRS rules....

Bamboo_bends said...

anonymous said...
"Just like France and Germany, the British are now reaping the "rewards" of African and Middle Eastern colonialism."

But the British spread freedom, just like America! What are you, a liberal commie? They riot because they hate the freedoms we have! Wait, I applied that talking point to the wrong situation.

Paul



Hey, you're ruining my dinner of freedom fries!

Lyle said...

In answer to kiwi's question, Ezekiel 36 and 37 does directly speak to a physical resurrection of Israel. Without going into too much detail, one can see it most clearly beginning at Ezekiel 37:11 where God begins to give His interpretation of the vision of the Valley of Dry Bones. Too many people try to interpret the interpretation, as if IT were also a vision. God's interpretation is the expected reality. Until we realize this we will be confused in our understanding of what the bible is saying.

To confirm this even more just a few verses later God gives another illustration with another divine interpretation in Ezek 37:18. Here God shows that that this Israel will be all of the 12 tribes reunited under one kingdom. This is as far from the current reality as you can get. Modern Israel has no distinctive tribes, and for that matter no theocratic government, as Ezekiel describes. Nothing today is as written. Ergo no prophecy is currently being fulfilled.

mel said...

I'm growing tired of hearing about Herb's racism!

Here's some Mormon racism:

The Mormon explanation of the Negro race is that there was an ancient battle between Jesus and Satan. Those who remained neutral in the battle were cursed to have black skin, thus creating the Negro race.

Those who fought most valiantly against Satan were given "white and delightsome" skin.

Mormons wear magic protective underwear.

Hmmmm....
Maybe the reason herbie didn't prescribe magic protective underwear for his followers is because the price of magic protective underwear might have put a dent in the offerings.

After all, magic protective underwear isn't free.

Neither are herbie's followers.

Anonymous said...

Tkach Bear Stearnes banker....

I sent some doggerel to our local banks headlined thus:

"Bare Sterns Bottom Out."

They were left very exposed.


"Kiwi"


Regarding Ezek 36/37,I have to agree with Lyle that what is being described here has nothing to do
with modern Israel.The Negro spiritual "Dem Bones" is taken straight from the book of Ezekiel.
Perhaps Creflo Dollar would like to sing it for us and Gavin put could put it on audio.


Seamus

mel said...

>>>Hey Mel, I can't help but wonder if she ever explained the number 69 to you? :-))<<<

Actually, for some reason she called 122 her "God number"

But since you ask about positions...
one day she came over with a stack of cards showing all different positions. I looked at like the top two and went "oh, nooo...", to myself.
Luckily her mouth was dry from the Lithium and while I was up getting her some water my cat Midnight hopped through the open window, into the room and onto her with a dead rabbit's head in his mouth, then deposited the head on the floor next to her.

I've never heard such a horrible scream in my life!

It saved me from having to try to contort to whatever all those cards showed...

Oh well, you asked.

Anonymous said...

Revised and enlarged edition

Tkach Bear Stearnes banker....

I sent some doggerel to our local banks headlined thus:

"Bare Sterns Bottom Out."

They were left very exposed.


"Kiwi"


Regarding Ezek 36/37,I have to agree with Lyle that what is being described here has nothing to do
with modern Israel.The Negro spiritual "Dem Bones" is taken straight from the book of Ezekiel.

Hallelujah,Praise the Lord.

Perhaps Freflo Dollar would like to sing it for us and Gavin could put it on audio.

It is rumoured that Worldwide in NZ had certain people who could give a reasonable rendition of "Dem Bones'.But,of course,their voice would be past the prime now.

Seamus

Thu Mar 20, 07:23:00 PM NZDT

kiwi said...

Lyle, thanks for your response. Your view corresponds to what I grew up hearing in the WCG, though they never did explain why a resurrection to physical life would occur for all Israel long before the "official timing" given for the GWT resurrection, post-Mill. Perhaps they hoped we'd never notice.

There are alternate explanations, however. Note that "tribes" are not in fact mentioned. Rather the two houses are, thereby allowing for the fact that tribal identity has been lost. Many take the view today that the regathering of the descendants of Jacob from "the north country" i.e. Russia, with others from the "east, west, and south" - western and arab countries - is exactly prophecy being fulfilled in the modern state of Israel today. That God "breathes" the nation back into life, something that was never expected to happen again, especially as Jews everywhere despaired of having their hope lost, and being cut off (Ezek 37:11). Some even propose that the "rattling of bones" (verse 7)was the shaking of WWI and WWII.

Sounds more plausible to me than what would otherwise be a "slow-motion resurrection" being described here: first a bone here and there, then a sinew, then skin, then breath. More plausible to think of this as a gradual nation-building, IMHO.

Note they receive the Spirit when they are back in the land. This can be seen in the number of Israelis coming to believe in Yeshua.

Whatever one thinks about the fate of Jacob's descendants (or whatever one thinks of prophecy theories in general), according to the Bible they simply cannot be a people who have formed their own sovereign nation somewhere else in the world (such as USA, Britain, etc). That would contradict biblical prophecy that they would be wanderers hounded from nation to nation until the regathering.

There may of course be many descendants of Jacob who have lost their identity, living in every country in the world. Perhaps one house (Joseph) has fared better by virtue of which peoples they are scattered among, than say Judah which has suffered much persecution.

The thing is, by no means has anyone put this prophetic business to bed, no matter how certain we once felt a particular interpretation was.

Tom Mahon said...

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>UCG should walk away from the Classic WCG [as opposed to WCG lite] and concentrate on their gospel that there will be a second resurrection where everyone will get a chance.<<<

Your "where everyone will get a chance," is pure heresy. Salvation is a gift of God, not a roll of the dice, you may be dumbfounded to discover, as you are incapable of learning the truth!

Questeruk said...

For those that consider the ‘BI’ idea to be racist, should maybe read through some of the racist and religious discrimination comments written in this thread, and written by those that reject the BI idea.

I find it interesting. So called ‘Armstrongism’ of fifty years ago would feel at home with these comments, but I find it a little distasteful.

Anonymous said...

Slightly off-message, but relevant re the EU/USA. Check out

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/12/the_new_european_union_the_emp.html

Baashabob said...

Neotherm remarked:
"Bob E.: The problem with your argument is that the state of Israel exists and represents a gathering in of at least some of the Jewish population. At least, the Jews now occupy their homeland."

I would reply that it was the northern 10 tribes that God divorced and then scattered. The southern tribes (Benjamin, Levi, and Judah) remained a part of the OC until the time of Christ's death. So even though scripture records that they were very bad boys, apparently in God's eyes it wasn't bad enough to dissolve the covenant between them.

Tired Skeptic asked:
"For those who haven't thrown the Bible out the window, none of us can take anything Tom Mahon says seriously: He misquotes Scripture, for heaven's sake! We sort of wonder what he might use a Bible for? Propping up a short leg on the coffee table, perhaps? Pressing flowers between the pages? Toilet paper?"

Well Tom could let his cat use it for a pillow, like your cat does :-)

Bob E.

kiwi said...

Seamus said: "It is rumoured that Worldwide in NZ had certain people who could give a reasonable rendition of Dem Bones. But, of course, their voice would be past the prime now."

We kiwis used to be able to put together a reasonable concert at the FOT. After all, we flightless birds have to be good at something else besides laying enormous eggs ;-)

We'll have to disagree about those dry old bones though... sounds more like a "dead nation" coming back to life to me than an instruction kit of how to reassemble a human being (along the lines of: if all else fails, read the instructions).
Oops, one spare rib left over....

Weinland Watch said...

To anonymous "Weinland Uber Alles" and Gavin and all:

The Church of God Preparing for the Kingdom of God has now issued an official response to the objection that the world wasn't shocked or in horror on the day the seventh seal was opened, as page 23 of 2008: God's Final Witness instructed us it would be.

The answer is very telling, and sheds more light on the fact that Weinland may indeed not believe his own prophecies, and may just be in it for the money.

The timeline has now been extended past April 17th: "1260 [days from Feb. 2 2008]:....It is not known how long this [the Great Tribulation] will take to be completed. It may take 6 to 12 months."

Wiggle room much Ronnie?