Monday, March 12, 2007

UCG packing for Dallas


The Journal has just released a newsflash. The Ohio-based church, largest in the ex-Armstrong stable, is about to relocate to sunny Texas. Details of the story, written by Dave Havir, are now online.

Several days ago a correspondent identifying herself as "Bible Betty" posted this message in several AW threads: Now that L. McCullough and C. Kilough were seen looking at land in Dallas to buy for a new headquarters and college for the United Church, their members in Texas will likely be excited to have the United HQ in their state. It turns out Betty was right on the money.

97 comments:

Anonymous said...

RCM used to say Pasadena was the West Point of God's work. Now he is somewhat East of Eden. UCG was the Mid Point of God's Work, but perhaps now will be the South Park of what God is doing today on earth. This leaves Dave Pack alone in Ohio...having gone a bit south of Eeerie...

Anonymous said...

The UCG brain trust shakes down the tithe payers for $250,000 placed in a dedicated fund for the media center, only to abandon the much touted infrastucture for "the work."
One now wonders if the proposed Dallas site will include lavish homes for the self appointed "in crowd" that can barely conceal their lust for the "top down" form of government.

Silly busy work decisions like this are indicative of men that have never had an honest job or business that required finacial or project managment.

The money that they erroneously think that they are entitled, which comes from the honest labor of UCG supporters, is being blown Pasadena style.

When did the UCG ask the finacial supporters about the wisdom of a HQ move?

Anonymous said...

Most things in a modern TV studio are actually portable.

I would expect it would all move to Dallas.

brave anonymous poster said...

while I've never been there, the home office looked like a very nice building......couldn't have been cheap to build.

so they're going to do it all over again?

Questeruk said...

This potential move is not a ‘done deal’. It needs to be presented to, and passed by, the General Council of Elders. The reasons for and against such a move will also need to be made known.

Anonymous said...

"The UCG brain trust shakes down the tithe payers for $250,000 placed in a dedicated fund for the media center..."

Another asanine post. United had an increase in income $2 million more than planned for last year and decided to earmark the $250k for that purpose. No one was asked for a penny. UCG does not beg for money or ask people to dig deep.

Steve said...

Anonymous said...

"UCG does not beg for money or ask people to dig deep."

MY COMMENT: Wait until their coffers run low.

Steve K

Anonymous said...

UCG does not beg for money or ask people to dig deep.

Really??? I seem to remember a member letter in the late 1990's from a certain Bob Dick that practically commanded members to give more in order to bail the church out of the financial mess that the COE had permitted in the first place.

P.S. Why is it that most Armstrongists can't seem to spell correctly or employ proper grammar? Truthfully this was my very first clue many years ago that I needed to reconsider my Armstrongist beliefs ... any concept that is usually defended by uneducated people should be thoroughly reconsidered.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if and when people are ever going to wake up and realize that all the COG's are alike, totally false, totally corrupt, and not a one of them are of God. It's such a shame to see people so willing to be deceived.

Anonymous said...

"P.S. Why is it that most Armstrongists can't seem to spell correctly or employ proper grammar?"

Look at any one of Dennis' posts. He is a great writer, not an armstrongist and has typos. You are a jerk.

Byker Bob said...

We should really refer to all of the splinters as placebos. It's been a belief of mine for some time that each person who is or was a stalwart ACOG member has an idealized concept of what a COG was or should be. Such a thing never really existed, mind you, but this does not keep people from trying to recreate it.

To access this inner church within, one must rely soley on HWA, not Jesus or GTA. Any sins HWA might have committed are totally repented of (in these folks' minds), forgiven, and fortotten. Not so for GTA, as ACOGgers remember these in vivid detail, and use them as a basis to totally invalidate GTA's work. And, nothing, absolutely nothing of any value could ever have sprung from anyone named Tkach.

So, you see, it really doesn't matter if one of the splinters uses members' tithes and offerings to move their headquarters, wasteful or not. The members are all complicit in creating and maintaining their little placebo. They may even honestly believe they are doing their own "end time" work. As long as the placebo appears to be working, who are we to take their collective Linus blanket away? OTOH, if some eventually see the light, and decide to leave, then maybe we can help them adjust.

BB

Dennis said...

"Look at any one of Dennis' posts... not an armstrongist and has typos."

Tpyos are an ipmorntat apscet in bineg hmuan. Sicnece tlels us taht it is not eevn ncseesray to sepll athnynig rgiht as lnog as one gtes the frsit and lsat lteter
of the wrod cercrot. The barin tekas oevr for us and flils in the rset of the wrod. Petety azinamg ins't it?

But I wlil be mroe ceraufl in the fuutre too. :)

Dennis said...

PS Deos Selplnig Ralely Mtetar? (Does Spelling Really Matter?)
Amy Venditta

"When children learn to read, they are told to sound out each letter as it comes. Therefore, they are told to pay careful attention to the order of the letters and the sound each makes. The brain then recognizes each letter and corresponding sound to create a word.

Why is it tehn taht you are slitl albe to raed tihs sntenece, ditsepe the fcat taht the wodrs are not sleelpd crercloty. Ecah wrod cteniuons to csnsoit of its oinargil leetrts, wtih the frsit and the lsat rnemiinag cstannot, and the mdldie lrttees in a roadnm jmeblud oedrr. This inspires the question of whether the brain takes each letter on its own, or recognizes the word as a whole (specific letters in no specific order)."

Gamaliel said...

There's an unwritten rule here. We only put up the (sic)s and point out typos and spelling errors when someone has just expressed an Armstrongite point of view. It becomes part of the total ignorance package. OTOH, if someone commits an error with an occasional comma while quoting Einstein, we give them credit for being able to think independently, as opposed to being a cult Zombie.

It's a fun game, and anyone can play.

Gammer

Kscribe said...

"P.S. Why is it that most Armstrongists can't seem to spell correctly or employ proper grammar?"

Well for most of us who have left the kingdom of the cults, we decided to get a REAL college education.
The world takes on a new and refreshing meaning when we are no longer caught up in the fantasy world of Herbert W. "H"armstrong!

Anonymous said...

Also in the 90's several ministers were asked to go on half time salary to help recover UCG. None of those at the top who were responsible for making that decision took a cut in pay.

Anonymous said...

The question is WHAT IS BEHIND this move that we don't know. There is something significant that we are not being told.

That is how these guys work.

It probably has to do with personalities; old friendships among the ranks of the leaders.

Anonymous said...

The question is WHAT IS BEHIND this move that we don't know. There is something significant that we are not being told.

UCG's wealthiest members live in Texas. There are a couple of millionaires in the Dallas and Houston congregations. Also, the local church populations in these areas tend to be more educated and hold higher-paying jobs than in other geographic locales. There's a lot of money in Texas. Plus there is no state income tax, although property taxes are horrendous.

Personalities no doubt played a role in this decision too. Jim Franks lived in Houston for many years before being transferred to Cincy last year. Doug Horchak, the heavy-handed pastor of Dallas and Tkach-son-in-law, is very good friends with Franks. Larry Salyer was a pastor in Dallas/Ft. Worth as well and really enjoyed his time there.

What is so very funny is that when the home office moved from California to Cincy, one of the biggest reasons given was that a high majority of church members lived within less than a 1-day drive from Cincy. Cincy is the geographic hub for the membership, just like it pretty much was in the days of WCG. Moving the UCG HQ to Dallas will definitely make it less accessible to most of the membership.

As usual we the members are left to "read between the lines" for the real reasons this move has been proposed. I am very curious to hear the video next week and get the "official" justification.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know how many council members live in Texas and how many top leaders that work in the HO are from Texas? I heard they were a few. Also who are they and what part of Texas do they reside? Who are the ones that have moved from Texas to the HO?

Just wondering.

Richard said...

For what it's worth: Chuck Swindoll relocated his "Insight for Living" media ministry from southern California to the DFW area several years ago.

So UCG certainly wouldn't be the first to move in that direction.

Anonymous said...

It might have something to do with the fact that there is a very large population of young and successful UCG members in the DFW area. It is no secret that the UCG ministry is aging as well as the general membership.

Anonymous said...

Isn't Tom Kirpatric, the church trearurer, from Texas? Does Les McCullough and Leon Walker also live in Texas? I have heard they are all good friends.

Anonymous said...

That is interesting about the young successful members in the Dallas area but ABC in Cincinnati has caused lot of young adults to move to the Cincinnati area and remain there.

Anonymous said...

"PS Deos Selplnig Ralely Mtetar?"

Dennis, this was not meant to be a slam against you if you read it carefully.

It is just that they forgive the failings of some and point out the failings of others when they have no other argument. Forgiveness is asked of you or u if you will or vill.

Very funny.

Anonymous said...

"I seem to remember a member letter in the late 1990's...."

Well it is the late 2000s and I don't know when the last demand on giving was made, do you?

Anonymous said...

United should move to Waco instead. Perfect place to have a headquarters compound and pack a gun arsenal built to survive the upcoming Great Tribulation...

Anonymous said...

see United News August 2004:

Media Center Restricted Fund Established
...

"It is for these setup costs that the restricted fund has been established, and any monies received need to be above and beyond the normal tithes and offerings of the Church's regular income. (In establishing the center, we don't want to impact other important budgetary considerations, but feel that this is a very worthwhile endeavor to which people may want to give special support.)

Goal of $150,000

The restricted fund has a target of $150,000, and once $75,000 has been received, the project will begin, provided a couple of other considerations in the Council's resolution are met. Regular reports on progress of the fund and the media center project will be given over the coming weeks and months, including reports in United News and home office e-mail updates.

Therefore, if you would like to support establishing the media center, please feel free to note on your contribution that it is for the "Media Center" or "Video Studio." The Council's resolution states that, in the event a shortfall is experienced in the Church's regular income, the construction and equipping of the studio will be placed on hold until projected nonrestricted income for the Church's regular budget is met."


United News Dec. 2004 reports:

Media Center Fund Complete

"The goal of $150,000 in special donations for the proposed home office media center was reached Nov. 29.
“In just a four-month time period the restricted fund reached its goal—much sooner than we anticipated!”said Peter
Eddington, Media and Communica-
tions Services operation manager.“We want to thank everyone for their generosity,especially for some rather large single donations and a large donation from one of the international areas!”

In January 2005, Church treasurer
Tom Kirkpatrick,will analyze the overall budget to ensure that regular income has not been affected by contributions
to the media center fund. If the financial guidelines in the Council resolution are met, then construction of the space at
the home office will begin, along with set construction and the purchase of the video, audio and lighting equipment..."

Anonymous said...

I understand that the members of UCG are expected to donate 1 Million $ each year (extra to their tithes and offerings, I assume) for the next three years to help move the Home Office to Texas. Can somebody confirm?

Anonymous said...

I told you in the last posting. I live in Cincinnati, and sometimes the winters here are brutal. No doubt the dear boys got tired of the cold, and headed south.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if this is a "Pasadena insider" type of deal, where a preferred church member is selling to the church. Suppose the land is bought at a premium price, and the persons who "found" the property are paid a finders fee .

Sorry if this disturbs people,but the secretiveness, the relationships of the players, and the vast distance of the HQ relocation encourages suspicion. A professionaly managed business usually tries to be closer in proximity to those it serves,not farther.

What would Stan Rader do?

Anonymous said...

"It might have something to do with the fact that there is a very large population of young and successful UCG members in the DFW area."

DFW was a popular destination for AU graduates (being 100 miles west of Big Sandy) and so it has a high percentage of young members, not all of whom will enjoy the increased scrutiny of having the bigwigs in town.

Rachael said...

I too will be curious to see all the official reasons for the move. However, those that I have been in contact with have said the main reason for the move is space in Ohio. The church needs to expand more and the building restrictions on the property in Ohio make it impossible to expand there.

I'm sure this will be bad news for all of you hoping that everything COG will blow up. As far as I know there is no intention to ask for donations from members for the move. In fact, the income for UCG has been doing quite well over the past year. The proposal for the move is to be done in phases over the next 3 years.

The GCE needs to approve it, so if any UCG members who frequent this board have issues or concerns with the move I encourage you to talk to your pastors about it. I also encourage everyone to actually listen to the video this weekend and not dismiss it out of hand. That is the only fair thing to do.

Dennis said...

Oh I didn't take the typo comment wrong at all. I have learned I tend to keyboard it all out of my head and then filter out my own mistakes. That's why someone else is looking at the book..ha. Actually we all tend to filter out our own mistakes..hey...a good sermon...doh...no one to teach it to!

Anonymous said...

Hello everyone,

I have received a question that would be good to answer for everyone regarding a detail of the relocation proposal. It concerned the budget item for relocation expenses and not being sure what I said on Sunday about how we arrived at that figure and what that would mean for each employee.

The budgeted amount was an approximation based on our HR policy – it is not a hard and fast number because the numbers would vary from person to person depending on a variety of factors. But we needed a fundamental base for estimating the budget. It was on the following basis for an estimate of what we should expect three years from now.

We used as a base number 30 employee “units” (husband and wife employees would count as one unit, since they only move one household). It is highly unlikely that number will end up being exactly 30 – it could range up or down depending on the number of employees we have at that time plus the personal decisions some might make on whether they could or would go. We might even have employees who currently work remotely who would want to move then to the new location. But 30 is a good approximation at this point. It is not the sole number that has been budgeted for, and we even added an extra $200,000 to the overall amount in order to compensate for any unforeseen costs and to just be on the safe side.

We budgeted for each “unit” the following:

• $5,000 relocation bonus per policy
• $2,000 for pre-move trip to search for housing (travel, motel, food – this is an estimate of costs based on past averages for pre-move trips, not a policy number)
• $10,000 for the moving company (again, just an estimate – the cost would vary widely from one employee to another depending on the amount of furniture and belongs that would be moved. For example, the cost for moving a single person in a small apartment would obviously be significantly different than the cost for a family with several children. This is a generous approximation based on past moves).
• $1,000 for miscellaneous

Total = $18,000 per employee “unit”

These were numbers used as an average only for calculating budget, not per person commitments (other than the relocation bonus), and especially not a commitment for 30 moves only.

I hope this clarifies any question or concern, and appreciate the question being asked.

By the way, the architect’s sketches arrived, and are on display in the conference room.

Kind regards,

Clyde Kilough

Neotherm said...

The move from cold Cincinnati to hot and humid Dallas is not an improvement. East Texas is one of the sorriest places I ever lived -- a seething cauldron of vermin, mold and jungle. But it does have the cachet of better times in the WCG, back when some Big Sandy officials could sit in private box seating at Dallas Cowboys football games. Back when GTA used to ride in on the wind in his Cessna Citation and wave his wings over the campus.

GTA blatantly waved his excess in the faces of the little people who were giving everything they had to support the work. Maybe that is what the UCG is up to. They want to Recapture True Values.

Tom Kirkpatrick is from Wichita, Kansas.

"No one was asked for a penny. UCG does not beg for money or ask people to dig deep."

Like the old WCG, the UCG will be on its "High Horse" during good times and will get Draconian during the bad times. But most of the time they will not have to ask because they rely on the now obsolete law of tithing. This is the oldest shuck and jive that they engage in. "We never pass the plate." But they do have burdensome giving engineered into the structure of the beliefs. In their eyes, this is one part of the Old Covenant that will never be done away, no matter what Christ said.

One could consider that there was a major rift between those who favored Pasadena (HWA) and those who favored Big Sandy (GTA) back in the old days. And most of the top players in the UCG now are Big Sandyites. Be true to your school.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

WOW! $540,000 tithing money (moving costs alone!)-- money that was given by church people who intended to support preaching the gospel around the world!

Anonymous said...

"THE ARCHITECT'S SKETCHES ARRIVED"

That did not come cheap either. Another ten grand?
I hope the tithe payers did not do without gloves or hats during this cold winter so that they could finance this secret spending spree.

Anonymous said...

Kirkpatrick might be from Wichita, but he received his Masters and PhD from the University of North Texas in Denton, a suburb of Dallas.

Leon Walker lives in nearby Big Sandy, as does Aaron Dean. If I'm not mistaken, Les McCullough might own a home there too.

I can't wait to hear what the official reasons are for this move. So ok, they've outgrown the facility in Milford, fair enough. But I can't imagine why they feel the need to leave Ohio and spend all that money for a move.

Ripley said...

So Cincinnati wasn't the promised land, after all. Didn't they give David Hulme the heave-ho for thinking that a few years back?

In fairness, the Cincinnati building is pretty tiny, according to those I've known who work(ed) there. The Olders must have concluded that: a.) Cincinnati wasn't the best choice, after all, and b.) if we're gonna move, we might as well own up to that and get outta Dodge while we have the chance.

A UCG member said...

I read your comments and y'all are so absurd! You instantly conclude that it's all from the worst motives without considering the possibility that it's from the best motives. I look at myself as a sort of share-holder in UCG. I believe in the work that UCG is doing. I feel like the people I go to church with are family. I believe (and I have some inside information) that the move is a long-term cost saving measure.

Anybody can do land cost/value comparisons for Cincinnati and Dallas, but none of you will because all you want to do is hate anyone associated with "Armstrongism" and blame them. We're all just "sheeple" being fleeced by the wolves, you know and we're just too stupid to know better.

To anonymous who believes no "Armstrongist" can spell or use proper grammar, I reply that anti-Armstrongists always resort to logical fallacies (such as the association fallacy) to support their beliefs, therefore they have no valid arguments. Further, let me postulate a variant of Godwin's Law, to wit, "As an online discussion involving anything to do with 'Armstrongism' grows longer, the probability of a mention of HWA's supposed pederasty approaches one."

BillyBob said...

>>>We're all just "sheeple" being fleeced by the wolves, you know and we're just too stupid to know better.<<<

Well you are! So what's your point?
Anyone that still thinks Armstrongism is the truth has a screw loose.

Anonymous said...

This is hilarious! I thought UCG was crazy when they moved to Ohio. I left UCG sometime ago because of tripe like this!

Anonymous said...

"Well you are! So what's your point?
Anyone that still thinks Armstrongism is the truth has a screw loose."

Hey BillyBob, prove all things hold fast to that which is good. We who are believers pray for people like you. Really, you need it.

Anonymous said...

"This is hilarious! I thought UCG was crazy when they moved to Ohio. I left UCG sometime ago because of tripe like this!"

I would imagine with the FACT that they are paying off the loan on the property early they can afford a move and a new location with the overall savings.

Cincy is impossible to travel to from almost anywhere in the country, having to almost always fly through Chicago which during both winter and summer has delays and cancellations. Being that Dallas is a main hub for travel, and in the center of the country, and connecting internationally, I would imagine the simple time and cost savings outweighs a move to a place with at least a more predictable climate.

United is growing, it has outgrown it's facility, it cannot build on the rest of the land without major additional costs. Sorry you left when you did, things are just starting to get exciting.

Think about it, a group of men from diverse backgrounds can come together and decide quickly to move to a warmer climate after one of the worst set of winter storms in the northeast in years.

Why would anyone want to stay somewhere where your work is constantly hampered.

These guys can even admit to making a mistake based on the other posts that find fault with changing minds. Well how about that?

Neotherm said...

"You instantly conclude that it's all from the worst motives without considering the possibility that it's from the best motives."

There is some substance to this. I tend to believe that there is a concealed motive behind most of the things that UCG ministers do. Why would this be?

I could say "Can a bad tree produce good fruit?" But that would be pre-emptive. Maybe, somehow, some way, this time the UCG is not being manipulative.

But the onus of proof is on the UCG. My conclusions are based on historical experience but granted history may not be the predictor of the future that I think it is in this case. But my expectation is that the truth will out. In a few months the internet will be sparking with the real reasons why the move was made and the UCG will take a black eye again.

The phenomenon that really slams Armstrongism is the fact that it is impossible any longer to conceal misbehavior because of the democracy of the internet. Armstrongism can only survive through careful information management and control.

Very likely, someone in the UCG in the future will simply tell us why the move was made, if the motives are not now being truthfully stated.

-- Neo

Neotherm said...

"To anonymous who believes no "Armstrongist" can spell or use proper grammar, I reply that anti-Armstrongists always resort to logical fallacies (such as the association fallacy) to support their beliefs, therefore they have no valid arguments."

Here we have the clash of generalizations, the former a cynical and humorous jab and the latter a serious but ill-informed response. Always is a big word. Like saying "HWA is always right." Just think how many times he was wrong, that even Armstrongites would agree to.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

If UCG needed more space, why not just rent another building close by and just move part of the operation into it? Why go to all that expense to move the whole operation?
I used to be with UCG and I saw the shenanigans going on then. I left.
They are getting a lot of money now, and they think they can do anything. The teachings of HWA and his tithing lies are still very much in use in the whole rotten system. And people think they are doing a work.They are doing a work alright, they are doing a job on the sheeple.

Kscribe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kscribe said...

a ucg member said: To anonymous who believes no "Armstrongist" can spell or use proper grammar, I reply that anti-Armstrongists always resort to logical fallacies (such as the association fallacy) to support their beliefs, therefore they have no valid arguments.<<<<

Let me restate this for you! "All the people (general term) in the Peoples Temple, run by Jim Jones are in a destructive cult." All the
anti-Jonesists, always resort to logical fallacies (such as the association fallacy) to support their beliefs, therefore they have no valid arguments.

All the:
anti-Mansonities (as in Charlie) always resort to logical fallacies (such as the association fallacy) to support their beliefs, therefore they have no valid arguments.

Point made!

Kscribe.

BillyBob said...

...Hey BillyBob, prove all things hold fast to that which is good....

I did that 12 years ago. Armstrongite mythology is easily refuted. There is nothing good about a corrupt immoral belief system.

Anonymous said...

It has become obvious from reading this discussion that many, many pro-COG people read this blog.

Now think for a minute about what this implies.

If you were a true god-fearing COG member, loyal to the core and rock solid in your faith, why would you feel the need to ever visit a blog which has time and again offered copious and overwhelming proof Armstrongism is a lie and COG leaders are corrupt?

Could it be because these blog-visiting COG members know better than to trust their own leadership (regardless of in which COG they claim membership)?

Could it be because they KNOW their leadership (regardless of COG) have exhibited such dishonesty, going back decades, that an independent source such as Gavin is necessary to validate claims made in official church communications?

The mere presence of so many pro-COGgers on this blog should be a clear indicator of just how little trust the membership has in their leaders to be totally honest and transparent.

Anonymous said...

"But the onus of proof is on the UCG."

To whom, you?

Really?

Wow, aren't you important?

Anonymous said...

"If UCG needed more space, why not just rent another building close by and just move part of the operation into it? Why go to all that expense to move the whole operation?"

Have you ever been to the operation in Ohio? If your answer is no, then you are not qualified to even ask a question like that.

Corky said...

"If UCG needed more space, why not just rent another building close by and just move part of the operation into it? Why go to all that expense to move the whole operation?"

Because the recipients of the money coming in will be the property owners and will continue to own the property after the payers of the money have departed.

If one day the UCG goes "plop" the recipients of the money will say, "oh well, we got the money and the property to fall back on until we can crank up the ole machine again".

Not a bad move - for them.

Mark Lax said...

Omnibus Comments:

“Cincy is impossible to travel to from almost anywhere in the country, having to almost always fly through Chicago which during both winter and summer has delays and cancellations. Being that Dallas is a main hub for travel, and in the center of the country, and connecting internationally, I would imagine the simple time and cost savings outweighs a move to a place with at least a more predictable climate.”

The cost of living and the cost of land are invariably tied together. As it stands, DFW is far more expensive than the Cincy metro area, almost 30% more expensive. That said, land values in Cincy proper are on an uptick, as it joins the rest of the rust belt by reinvigorating its downtown. (They are slow in Ohio.) Although the land is cheaper now, and will be for a time, it will eventually appreciate in value. The exact opposite is true of DFW, where land values are high now and about to recede. It is also far more expensive to do business in DFW. At best, the move is a wash and, at worst, counterintuitive. As for air travel, it may make some sense since the UCG is skewed south and east demographically. Even then, it doesn’t make all that much sense to simply move based on air travel costs. They’re in Cincy, not Washington State. So, no Virginia, there are no ‘simple time and cost savings’ involved to outweigh. The move is motivated by some other reason—and I can’t discount climate or general better conditions. In any case, it’s a wholesale upgrade for those involved and one which would cause a stretch in the imagination to state that it is being done for any tangible operational reason.

“United is growing, it has outgrown it's facility, it cannot build on the rest of the land without major additional costs. Sorry you left when you did, things are just starting to get exciting.”

Since when is United growing? It is not an organically growing organization, given that most members are over 50 and no new young families are joining. It is a defector organization which sponges up defections from other like-branded churches. Its only hope for ‘growth’ is through an LCG split or through picking off strays from Great God or the ICG.

By the way, isn’t the Intercontinental Church still in Big Sandy? As well as the Church of God International? Moving to DFW would make some sense if the overall strategy was to pick off strays from them. Not to give UCG any ideas…

“The mere presence of so many pro-COGgers on this blog should be a clear indicator of just how little trust the membership has in their leaders to be totally honest and transparent.”

The blog we are posting on is not anti anything. It’s supposed to be pro ‘accountability’. Pro-Cogers do not HAVE to be against accountability. In some splinters, obeying the Law of God does not mandate turning a blind eye to the activities and motives of men running churches.

--Mark Lax

Steve said...

A UCG "member" said: "I look at myself as a sort of share-holder in UCG. I believe in the work that UCG is doing. I feel like the people I go to church with are family. I believe (and I have some inside information) that the move is a long-term cost saving measure."

MY COMMENT: Do you have any choice? Did they ask YOU? Reminds me of the old saying, "If you can't beat 'em, might as well join 'em." Have you ever read the UCG by-laws? You are not even a member of the UCGIA, let alone a share holder. What "work" is UCG doing? They are doing the exact "work" that they did when they were in WCG, under the thumb of HWA. What happened to THAT "work"? They saw the unrest that Tkach was causing, and knew that their jobs and paychecks were on the line, so they had to make a move. MOST of them weren't going to make THAT move until they knew for sure how many sheep they could muster. I've got the "inside information" on THAT measure.

Believe me, I know from experience how the people you go to church with feel like family to you. Stop going. Then, see how much they seem like family.

Ok, show us the "inside information" as to how the move to Dallas is a "long-term cost saving measure".

Steve K

Dennis said...

"Stop going. Then, see how much they seem like family."

You go from of hundreds aquaintances, scores of "friends" and a few that "stick closer than a brother..." to zero real quick.

The best answer I ever got from an official WCG dept, and if you can believe this, the Reconciliation Dept (I told them them they are reconciling with the wrong folks), was that "we will pray for you."

Now if that isn't, "be warmed and be filled but give not that which they have need of," I don't know what is....

Besides the Reconciliation dept, I find the Fall Crusies with Jesus to be the most offensive when it's just a darn nice way to have you're cake and eat it too and probably free to the Cruise Meister to boot.

Hey I even gave my phone number to all you guys to give a friendly call...and guess what....?

Jim Butler said...

Let me say up front, at this point, my thinking is neutral about a move to Dallas.

As a few mentioned, obviously more reasons for the move will be brought out this coming Sabbath.

I am a bit surprised by the move, since I know before United moved to Ohio there was a lot of work done checking out a number of possible locations.

A bit of speculation, and it is simply speculatiion.

I think a main reason is a plan to start a college/university. Probably feel that the Dallas area is more conducive for this in a number of ways; weather, a more centralized location, the proximity to Big Sandy and nostalgic feelings might come into play.

A number of them, as mentioned, have a lot of history in Texas, and a few already have homes in the state.

I think the university is the main reason. Worldwide did not take off, in numbers, until the early 60's, a little over 10 years after Ambassador started. Actually, Ambassador didn't really get off the ground until the late 50's or possibly later, if one thinks about it.

If it gets to the point where United has a viable university it will be interesting to see how it is handled, how the ministry is trained, etc. Most now realize that hiring kids, into the ministry, right out of college was a mistake. Most now realize they were not mature enough to be pastors at this age, even though in the 70's and 80's most started out being assistants.

So my speculation; the plan is to have Ambassador revived.

Personally, I don't think we have that much time left. But who knows.

Having plans is exciting. I hope there have been a lot of lessons learned over the years, so, if it does happen, it will be done more maturely, with more wisdom, and true godly thinking.

Perhaps there will even be a real desire, and planned curriculum, to teach people how to think. (smile)

Jim

Neotherm said...

"'But the onus of proof is on the UCG.'

"To whom, you?

"Really?

"Wow, aren't you important?"

As far as my personal belief is concerned this is true. Is my personal belief important to the UCG. Not at all. I don't believe anybody's personal belief is important to the UCG, including the beliefs and concerns of its lay members.

The COG members who visit this site are probably atypical, fringey types. My guess is that the leadership of all COGs condemn the use of the internet. Once again it is a leak in their attempts to seal up and manage information sources.

When I was in the WCG, we were encouraged to immerse ourselves in only WCG literature. Little else was acceptable. Maybe the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin and US News and World Report. You can see why the internet would be problematical to this model.

I would also guess that most COG members are not hooked up to the internet and are not computer literate. In the WCG in the Seventies, Armstrongite lay members for instance, prided themselves in not having education. They were told by their leaders that the education of "the World" was wrong and to be avoided. This gave all the D+ students a new self-esteem. I would expect that this model has been transferred to use of the internet.

Part of the reason for the move to Dallas may be a simple as a desire to stir things up a little. When things are dead boring, why not manufacture some excitement? The grapevine will be crackling with energy for a few months. This is the creation of a false momentum that will be, in the last analysis, expensive and ineffective.

But for all their trouble, they should have moved to Albuquerque or Phoenix. Dallas is such a yucky place. Big on crass and little on culture.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

Here is something for all of the loyal COG folks out there to consider. No matter what group you are with, you believe in tithing, right? How much have you heard in the sermons lately about tithing? Probably not much.
If you go into Fred Coulter’s web site, you can download over 20 hours of information about tithing. “God requires you to tithe” Coulter says. You should all listen to what he tells you, things you never heard or thought of before. Then after listening to his over 20 hours of blather, ask yourself, “who should I tithe too?” I am sure Coulter isn’t going to say you should tithe to United, or Flurry or etc. etc. Now, who are you going to believe?
There is loads of information on the internet about tithing. If anyone wants to know the truth from the scriptures it is available. Tithing is not applicable in the NT.

Anonymous said...

Here is something for all of the loyal COG folks out there to consider. No matter what group you are with, you believe in tithing, right? How much have you heard in the sermons lately about tithing? Probably not much.

interesting - but very wrong. we had a great sermon recently on tithing. very biblical and insightful.

Anonymous said...

Then if it was Biblical, you won't be tithing anymore, right?

Corky said...

It's God's fault. He made us this way. He could flood the Earth a million times and get the same result:

After the Flood, in Genesis 8:20 he says: "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth..."

Why is man's heart evil from his youth? Go back to Genesis 2:26 he says: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

Now that explains a lot! That explains why the god in the Bible is so evil; he's just like us.

Anonymous said...

"There is loads of information on the internet about tithing. If anyone wants to know the truth from the scriptures it is available. Tithing is not applicable in the NT."

This is pretty funny if you think about it. I was listening to a protestant preacher on the radio (you would think they were new covenant) who said that tithing was commanded by Jesus when he said 'this ought you to do...' when talking about tithing of mint anise and cummin. He used this one scripture to prove his point, why not condemn all the tithe paying churches?

But alas, you guys will only condemn the churches of God groups. Besides, if this one scripture could be used to prove tithing, all of what Jesus said could prove the Sabbath is still in effect. No one thing he said did away with it. Not one.

As far as Neo's feelings that people in the CoGs who post here being fringey types, that is doubtful.

Some of us have fun listening to the 'tripe', to use someone elses phrase, coming out of sites like these.

Others will attempt to see what they can do to make a difference in assuring that mistakes of the past are not repeated.

And still others are willing to attempt to get 'you' to think just like you attempt to get 'us' to think. It really tests our ability to defend our beliefs in a very safe way. For that we are thankful.

Sincerely, the non-fringey church of God attendee.

Steve said...

Some of us have fun listening to the 'tripe', to use someone elses phrase, coming out of sites like these.

MY COMMENT: We all have fun listening to the dumb sheep of the COGs defending their pet doctrines tooth and toenail.

Others will attempt to see what they can do to make a difference in assuring that mistakes of the past are not repeated.

MY COMMENT: Too late!

And still others are willing to attempt to get 'you' to think just like you attempt to get 'us' to think.

MY COMMENT: Sorry, but you DON'T think. You just believe what your "ministers" tell you to believe. You can't con me. I was there for 30 years.


It really tests our ability to defend our beliefs in a very safe way. For that we are thankful.

MY COMMENT: I haven't seen any ability here. You're welcome.

Steve K

Andy Nonymous said...

Well Betty, I hope you're happy with the prophetic announcement!
It appears that UCG will get the college, the media complex, the farm and probably another star on the Texas flag.
Can you spell Imperial Schools?

You have to wonder, though... what would RCM have done with all this loot?

Rod2?

Neotherm said...

"As far as Neo's feelings that people in the CoGs who post here being fringey types, that is doubtful."

I would expect that there are no ministers and no leaders in the UCG who would access the internet to see what critics of Armstrongism might be saying. But I cannot take a survey so I really don't know. I do know what Armstrongism is like and I know Armstrongite leaders would like to control everybody's access to information if they possibly could. This is based on historical experience. I stand by my belief that it is a fringe element within the xCOGs that would access proscribed information sources on the internet, likely in contravention to what their ministers have said from the pulpit.

People who are smart enough to futz around with computers but cannot parse through a few theological articles and see that the Old Covenant, with its tithing laws, is obsolete form a special paradoxical and inexplicable class. I assume that they resonate with Armstrongism for reasons other than logic and rationality.

Does it cause any stir among xCOGers that the man who laid out what was done away and what was in force from the Old Covenant and advised Herbert on this later renounced this model and became an orthodox Christian? That was Herman Hoeh.


-- Neo

A UCG member said...

neotherm & kscribe, you missed the joke!

Anonymous said...
If UCG needed more space, why not just rent another building close by and just move part of the operation into it? Why go to all that expense to move the whole operation?


Have you ever tried to work in that sort of situation? I have at a previous job and it's a stop-gap measure. It doesn't work long term for any type of business.


Steve said...
MY COMMENT: Do you have any choice?


Yes, I do. I can discuss it and lodge my concerns with my minister and other local elders, with whom I have very good relationships. And if I decide that what they're doing is wrong, I can stop sending in my tithes and do something else.

Stop going. Then, see how much they seem like family.

I did for awhile and all my friends were still my friends. I still see lots of people that I knew from WCG quite regularly. My best friend goes to Living. I'm still friends with people who quit going to any church. I've been to a lot of gatherings of former WCG members.

I can address it even more to the point than that. My in-laws quit UCG. People at church keep in touch with them. People at church invite them to gatherings.

And should you expect people to want to stay in touch with you if all you do is insult them and their beliefs?

Anonymous said...

Will the Living University have a gun safety course for its students?

kscribe said...

A UCG member said...
neotherm & kscribe, you missed the joke!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
Can you give yourself a name on this blog or are you one of those anonymous's that were named by their dope smoking hippie parents in the 70's?

Ripley said...

This has become a pretty pointless thread, with a lot of the classic "You're a weenie," "No, you're a weenie" chatter.

I can't really blame people who believe in the UCG for defending it.

I also can't blame people who suffered needlessly at the hand of the COGs for calling them out.

Honest discussion leads somewhere. Ex-COGers have difficulty stifling their emotions over what they saw and experienced. Current COGers have difficulty imagining that things aren't as they believe them to be. And so it goes, and always will, I would imagine.

At any rate, the fact remains: It appears Cincinnati was a mistake.

lussenheide said...

EXCLUSIVE FOR AW BLOGGERS FROM THE LUSSENHEIDE!...

Video clip from the UCG Homeoffice DVD to be shown to the brethren this coming Sabbath about the move to Dallas, It shows how quickly and dilligently they will be applying the logistics and equipment in physically making the move speedy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_HIBmbiGE

COPY THE ABOVE LINK INTO YOUR BROWSER AND THEN PRESS ENTER.

Lussenheide

Anonymous said...

"We all have fun listening to the dumb sheep of the COGs..."

You see this CoGers, he has no other thing he can do but ridicule. No argument, just attack the messenger.

Anonymous said...

Great tone to your email Steve K. You sound a bit huffy.

Humph....

Anonymous said...

"Current COGers have difficulty imagining that things aren't as they believe them to be. And so it goes, and always will, I would imagine."

Hey Ripley, believe it or not (just joking here you know). I think the in denial thing is really kind of silly.

Anonymous said...

Then if it was Biblical, you won't be tithing anymore, right?

An honest reading of the scriptures reveal that tithing part of the relationship that one has with God. If you choose to believe that it does not - that is your choice. But you are not being honest with the scriptures or with God. (And spare me the comments from those of you who do not believe that God exists.)

Trader with Style said...

Neo said: "Does it cause any stir among xCOGers that the man who laid out what was done away and what was in force from the Old Covenant and advised Herbert on this later renounced this model and became an orthodox Christian? That was Herman Hoeh."

Having known Herman Hoeh (like many others) for nearly 20 years and worked for him for part of that time, if someone had told me that he had adopted elements of the edicts of Zarathustra, I can't say I would be surprised. An intensely private man, Hoeh was an enigma in the truest sense of the word.

If he was anything (and I actually write this with respect), he was an apologist for whomever was in power at the time in WCG.

1) For example, when HWA announced in the 1950s/1960s that the Egyptian pyramids couldn't have survived the Great Flood, Hoeh responded by simply rewriting history. Borrowing heavily from Immanuel Velikovsky's controversial work, Ages in Chaos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_in_Chaos), Hoeh reworked traditionally accepted Egyptian and Babylonian dynasty chronologies so they fit HWA's Flood scheme. He subsequently published them as "new truth" in the first volume of his legendary Compendium. When HWA later allowed for the pyramids to actually have "survived" the Flood, Hoeh looked like an idiot.

2) The "theology" for HWA's title and rank of "Apostle" came directly from Hoeh. HWA actually initially rebuked Hoeh for calling Armstrong an Apostle, but as we all know, gradually accepted it (although HWA didn't use the title openly for nearly 20 years).

3) In the last months while HWA was dying, Hoeh basically either flat-out hand-wrote sections or heavily edited prior HWA works for the book that became Mystery of the Ages. (Sheila Graham also played a significant role in the production of MOA, which should give Flurry fits). Mystery of the Ages would be more appropriately title "Herbert Armstrong's Greatest Hits," edited by Herman L. Hoeh.

4) Hoeh heavily edited HWA's original Authobiography after Armstrong's death (again with aid from Sheila Graham), adding in HWA letters and the initial pieces about Joe Tkach. The result was a politically tinged tone that produced a quasi-"balanced" view of WCG's founder and made it seem like the selection of Tkach as successor was an orderly process (which it was anything but same).

I had a great deal of respect for Hoeh (particularly in how he and his wife were true servants of humanity), but truly to really understand what he "believed" at any given moment was like trying to nail a wet noodle to a wall.

Trader

Anonymous said...

Thank you Bill,

Here is where this whole train of thought is going:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_sY1I5o-TY&NR

charlie kieran said...

Anon: Tithing was an agrarian tax that was paid directly to the Levites for their service in the temple. It was never a monetary levy, you only tithed on every tenth of your livestock / Produce(IOW you had to have ten of something before you had to tithe on it) and there was a respite every seven years.

The COG leaders are not levites, nor do they serve in the temple...Yet they levy on you three tithes, on your monetary income, with no seventh year break.

Jesus himself did not accept tithes because he was not of the tribe of Levi and would have sinned had he accepted tithes. Jesus' ministry was supported solely by free will offerings...As was Paul's. Did your COG leader mention any of this in his sermon???


Expected Red Herrings:

- We are not an agrarian economy today: Big Deal, There were more workers on the lands of Israel then there were land owners...IOW Not everyone was a farmer. There were smiths and tradesmen of all types, including women who performed beautician services as well as tax collectors for the King of Israel.

- The Leaders and Ministry of the (Enter COG here) are the modern priesthood: No they are not. Jesus' sacrifice did away with the need for a physical priesthood, gave us a direct line to God, and there is no way in hell that the minister's in your COG can claim descendancy from the Levites unless he can credibly claim the name Levine, Levi, Levy, or some close fascimile. I think we'll see a Pope named Samuel Rabinowicz first.
- Tithing is mentioned in the New Testament: Sure, to the Hebrews, not the Christians. Stoning is mentioned too - For a good many sins that the COG leaders are guilty of. Really want to go down that road? There are also exhortations to put people to death for all sorts of silly offenses. How is that for God breathed??? Heck, in the NT there are leaders of the church that claimed to have killed people for some odd offense...Are you ready to absolve your leaders for murder?

I think maybe you are...That's sad.

I could go on but I'm tired and going to bed.

Anonymous said...

I could go on but I'm tired and going to bed.

This is all that you have? Once again we are treated to the same ol' anti-everything-proto-protestant-agnostic-postmodern-'enlightened' reading of the scriptures.

charlie kieran said...

Well anon... - Where in the bible is a tithe anything but an agrarian tax? Where are tithes paid to anyone but the Levites for their service in the temple? Why did Jesus and the disciples not accept tithes and only free will offerings - Same with Paul? Why do armstrongists not follow the seventh year rule?

Easy answer: Because it is all bovine excreta.

At least one of the apostles claimed to have killed members of the church - Is that something you would give >Enter COG Despot Here< a pass on today?

Steve said...

charlie kieran said...
"Well anon... - Where in the bible is a tithe anything but an agrarian tax? Where are tithes paid to anyone but the Levites for their service in the temple? Why did Jesus and the disciples not accept tithes and only free will offerings - Same with Paul? Why do armstrongists not follow the seventh year rule?"

Anon:
"This is all that you have? Once again we are treated to the same ol' anti-everything-proto-protestant-agnostic-postmodern-'enlightened' reading of the scriptures."

MY COMMENT: Answer the questions above first, then I'll give you more. Why do COGers pick and choose what they want to obey out of the Bible? Oh! I forgot. Because their "minister" tells them to. Do you think the "minister" might have an underlying reason why he has to keep that dead doctrine alive. ;-)


Steve K

Byker Bob said...

Well, here we go again! Most of us who have left the ACOGs have done research, looking objectively for truth (as opposed to being spoonfed somebody else's "prooftexted" answers).

I've noticed over the past few years that, oddly enough, some of those still in the ACOGs want to be spoonfed our new answers. If we do this for them, one thing virtually never happens! They just never do seem to buy into it in any way, probably because it totally disagrees with their decades long programming. In fact, sometimes such an exchange results in them becoming more deeply entrenched in Armstrongism.

I've come to the conclusion that we should let the Armstrongites do their own research, assuming they want or need new answers. We did it, so why should we participate in "enabling" them by allowing them to be lazy and sloppy in their study techniques?

Bottom line is that we cannot know anonymous people posting on forums and blogs. There is and was a certain percentage of people who needed Armstrongism, or some kind of highly structured philosophy in their lives, or they would have run completely amuck. Most people thrive as independent thinkers, but it would be wrong of us to dismantle the support system for a truly weak individual whose life might very well go to hell without their Armstrongism.

BB

Dennis said...

isn't it a disconnect to argue FOR giving 10-20-30% of your income to a church for whatever. Stoning is very Biblical as well, but I doubt someone who is about to become the victim of it should argue for it.

Anonymous said...

"to argue FOR giving 10-20-30% of your income to a church"

Dennis, you are well respected on this blog for your insight and feeling about what happened. But the numbers above simply do not add up to the truth.

One thing that gets me is that we hear on blogs and anti-Armstrongism articles about giving 30% of one's income. I think anyone would have to admit it was 10% and offerings that we gave every year. At most, even still too much to this writer, 25% was given to the church on third tithe years, but we always had 10% for the FOT which was a vacation for most.

The argument of members 'giving 30%' really hurts those of you who hate armstrongism. It becomes a straw man for those who disagree with you. Most people who are tithing would look at that figure and say, 'that is a lie.'

Really, 10% gross income was too much. I believe in tithing, but 10% of one's increase is far different that 'income.' That is yet for another time.

charlie kieran said...

Anon,

Not sure where you were taught tithing in the WCG but I was taught to tithe 1 & 2 Tithe as 10% each off the gross for years - starting with my paper delivery route as a boy. It wasn't until several years later that tithing was allowed off the net. I tithed faithfully until I left the WCG...Although I never did get to my first third tithe year as I left two years after baptism.

Excess second tithe was not to be taken back home and used for next year or deposited in the bank, it was to be sent in to HQ...And let us not forget the 'tithe of the tithe'.

holy day offerings and special pleas for other funds were on top of that...So the 10-20-30% claim is valid.

Steve said...

Anonymous said...

An honest reading of the scriptures reveal that tithing [is] part of the relationship that one has with God.

MY COMMENT: Where can I find that...apart from the Old Covenant?


If you choose to believe that it does not - that is your choice. But you are not being honest with the scriptures or with God.

MY COMMENT: I have honestly proven from the Scriptures that God does not require a tithe...especially a "money tithe". Money was never tithed upon. So, help me out here. How is "money tithing" being honest with the Scriptures, or with God? And, how does paying a "money tithe" to YOUR church give you a relationship with God? Be honest now.

Steve K

Ripley said...

I wish I could find an email with which to write to Gavin, because from time to time it would be nice to suggest topics.

In this case, the tithing doctrine rears its head and leads to a bigger issue. The question, "Why didn't Jesus require it," or anything close to that, is quite valid. That tithing is an agrarian principle intended for an agrarian time seems inexplicably lost on people who seem intent on forking over their own money for the sake of identifying with, and therefore needing to "prove," someone else's theological interpretations. We all did it at one time or another, so please, let's resist the temptation to hurl stones, as if those of us who have come to disagree with the practice are idiots. Enforced anything, as opposed to that which comes from the heart, should be suspect.

Tithing, like virtually everything else in the historic Armstrong system, is directly tied to British-Israelism. Take that away, and it's tough to promote most of the teachings. Food laws? Check. Sabbath? Check. Holy Days? Check. Ministers NOT tithing because they are "Levites"? Check. What's the underlying "proof"? WE'RE ISRAELITES.

Huh? Just for the heck of it, could we please discuss "tithe of the tithe" with a straight face?

Of course not.

That you can do those things without doing harm is not the issue. But being told -- required -- to do it at the risk of one's "eternal life" is something altogether different.

The COGs are ripe with story after story of people who tithed for 30, 40, 50 or more years, and had little to show for it -- certainly not the "real, abundant living" so often touted. Why? I believe it's because of an egregiously overlooked principle of ministry: That those involved in ministry should be, toward their fellow Christians, "helpers of their joy."

I'm sorry, but that was, by observation as well as anecdotal evidence, not the case on a consistent enough basis to merit the addendum "of God." I say that haltingly, because even I know it's best to let God be the judge of what's of him and what isn't. But I also have come to the conclusion that he expects me to think -- by God!

Like so many others, I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears the telling of people that they "stink" or were "filth." I don't think that's "of God." People were required to be baptized and rebaptized, and rebaptized after that, because they presumably didn't have the Holy Spirit. (We'll leave alone the presumptuousness, not to mention the violation of the blasphemy clause, of telling someone that). I don't think that's "of God." Confused and dazed true believers were told they were demon-possessed and rebellious, and in danger of the "lake of fire" -- and for what? Not wanting to sleep with the number two guy? Less? I don't think that's "of God."

And on and on it went.

Meanwhile, numerous Teflon "clergy" were trotting around under the cloak of the cloak, flaunting a "you can't touch me because of who I am" mentality that further alienated and confused people. It was insidious, not to mention just plain wrong.

You want to split hairs over doctrine? Fine. If you hold a sincere theological position, whether it agrees with mine or not, that's no problem. But don't try to justify a system that sought to hide such nonsensical, often deviant behavior as that which I've outlined from careful scrutiny. And don't try to kid me or anyone else who lived it and breathed it and once even sought to support it that this kind of stuff wasn't prevalent, and too often the norm.

There were, among the thorns, some roses who sincerely sought to conduct themselves differently. But one must look at the whole picture. What was the fruit? A fractured, contentious organization that produced many more of the same. A worldwide clique of people with a shared heritage who refuse to acknowledge their brotherhood, and therefore can't (or WONT!) bring themselves to treat one another with dignity, respect, and true compassion. An assortment of self-proclaimed apostles, or relative equivalent, who practice pronouncement and draw to themselves those who apparently crave abuse in order to somehow validate their proclivity to piousness.

"Helpers of their joy." If only. So much of the dissension would disappear into thin air. That that would not serve the purposes, or uphold the teachings, of many of today's organizational leaders should give one pause, at least.

Steve said...

charlie kieran said...

"The COG leaders are not levites, nor do they serve in the temple...Yet they levy on you three tithes, on your monetary income, with no seventh year break.

Jesus himself did not accept tithes because he was not of the tribe of Levi and would have sinned had he accepted tithes. Jesus' ministry was supported solely by free will offerings...As was Paul's. Did your COG leader mention any of this in his sermon???"

QUESTION: If Jesus didn't accept the tithe of produce and animals, nor did the original apostles, nor did Paul, how can "ministers" today justify accepting, demanding, and oppressing their followers with the doctrine of the "tithe" of money?

Steve K

Libro said...

If you hold a sincere theological position, whether it agrees with mine or not, that's no problem. But don't try to justify a system that sought to hide such nonsensical, often deviant behavior as that which I've outlined from careful scrutiny. And don't try to kid me or anyone else who lived it and breathed it and once even sought to support it that this kind of stuff wasn't prevalent, and too often the norm.

Well said, Ripley.

A UCG member said...

kscribe said...
Can you give yourself a name on this blog or are you one of those anonymous's that were named by their dope smoking hippie parents in the 70's?


Is "A UCG Member" any less nominative than "kscribe"? My parents smoking pot? Ha! That's like Dave Pack putting up a christmas tree! No, my real name is very plain and boring.


neotherm wrote... I would also guess that most COG members are not hooked up to the internet and are not computer literate.

Most UCG members I know are.

He also said People who are smart enough to futz around with computers but cannot parse through a few theological articles and see that the Old Covenant, with its tithing laws, is obsolete form a special paradoxical and inexplicable class.

I'm a software engineer, so I guess that makes me smart enough to "futz around with computers", and I've read enough of the Bible to see that tithing predates the Old Covenant and that Paul specifically discusses this in Hebrews 7. Abraham wasn't tithing on fruit and vegetables when he tithed to Melchizedek.

charlie kieran said...

A UCG Member:

You are using the usual armstrongist twisting and stretching of scripture tactic!

The account in Genesis 14 which is repeated in Hebrews 7 is a singular event: Abraham gave a tenth of the war spoils to Melchizedek and gave the remaining 90% away. He kept nothing for himself. There is no mention of Abraham ever giving a tenth of his own personal property nor was this act repeated again.

I suppose you'll want to bring up Jacob next. First Jacob struck a bargain with God, setting all sorts of conditions. If God would meet those conditions, Jacob would give back a tenth of all that God gave to him. (Gen 28).

Oddly enough: Jacob's tithes (food & animals) were brought to the same place as the burnt offerings where it was used in a big feast also for the benefit of the fatherless and widows (Deut 14) You won't see Flurry or Pack doing this.

What was to be tithed on? See Lev 17. Tithing was only on the products of the land; Animals, Fruits, and Veggies. Not the birds in the air, nor the fish in the sea. This chapter also deals with how the tenth was determined for flocks and herds by what passed under the rod...Every tenth animal whether good or bad. If someone only had nine of something no tithe was paid.


The armstrong tithing system is a scam, unholy, and a sin. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and with that, the mosaic laws. Jesus bound us to a higher standard in the new covenant with the moral law.

More later.

Steve said...

A little more on tithing:

Let's not forget the incident in Numbers 31. If tithing was something that God required, or commanded, before the Israelites received FREE land from God, then it surely would have applied here. There is no command to tithe or a regular practice of tithing mentioned from Adam to Sinai. To say that tithing was commanded prior to the giving of the covenant is to read something into the text that is simply not there. Also...the law regarding the redeeming of tithes(Lev. 27:31) proves beyond a doubt that the tithe could only be paid with agriculture, and prevented greedy Levites and priests from replacing the agricultural tithing system with money.

Steve K

Anonymous said...

Ok, so I listened to Clyde's sermon today. It was just another example of a 10 minute sermonette stretched into an hour-long droning. What a waste of time.

Maybe the upcoming video being sent to the elders will provide a little more reasoning why they have decided to move and why they picked Dallas of all places.

Richard said...

By the way, the first DVD shown Sabbath had NO request for extra $$. But in terms of current finances, Clyde Kilough emphasized several times: "We're not in survival mode anymore."

lussenheide said...

All:

What I dont understand about the COE meetings, which are sent out in transcript form and reported on in the United News, is that NONE of this move to Dallas was mentioned AT ALL in any of these (so called) press releases of COE meetings!

This is not transparency.

It is the result of "backroom" politicing, with no open discussion, with the results then DUMPED onto the regular ministry and membership. A propoganda film was also produced secretly to "seal the deal" and to make anyone who would demand alternative views appear as "not with the program".

If I were a voting member of the United Ministry, I would vote against the whole project simply as a statement AGAINST the Due Process of decision making that has now occurred in UCG. Members in the Council are nominated by the Council, and no true debate or political platform is allowed in the elections at UCG anyway. It is sort of like the elections that occur in Cuba or something. Handpicked candidates with "confirmation votes" from a terrorized electorate.

So use this proxy, by voting NO, to "open up" the political process of UCG.

Bill Lussenheide , Menifee, CA USA

LCG MEMBER said...

One Anonymous said...
It has become obvious from reading this discussion that many, many pro-COG people read this blog.

Now think for a minute about what this implies.

If you were a true god-fearing COG member, loyal to the core and rock solid in your faith, why would you feel the need to ever visit a blog which has time and again offered copious and overwhelming proof Armstrongism is a lie and COG leaders are corrupt?.....WE COG MEMBERS CHECK IN ONCE IN A WHILE BECAUSE ALL OF YOU ARE SUCH GOOD EXAMPLES TO US...AS WHAT NOT TO DO, AND HOW NOT TO BE...YOU PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ANSWER TO YOUR CREATOR FOR ALL THIS ONE DAY... I KNOW, ( WINK, WINK, SNICKER, SNICKER, GRIN. GRIN.) YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, BECAUSE YOU'VE FOUND SOMETHING BETTER, WELL YOU BETTER ENJOY IT WHILE YOU CAN...IF YOU EVER KNEW THE TRUTH AND TURNED FROM IT YOU'VE HAD IT!

2Pet2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it , to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. I THINK MOST OF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT LATTER END IS...FUNNY AIN'T IT???