The Oracle speaks:
The Living Church of God has more than one hundred and forty elders around the world. Over the last two years or so, about a dozen elders have decided to leave the Living Church of God—some over doctrinal issues and some for personal reasons—to start their own organizations or to join someone else. This is hardly the “mass exodus” that some Internet sites want to assert. What has been encouraging is that few people have followed these departing elders. In fact, some who have left are also beginning to trickle back after seeing the lack of fruits in other organizations. Overall, most congregations around the world are positive and focused, while here and there some few individuals are confused and negative—especially if they spend a lot of time on the Internet. Most of the brethren in the Living Church of God see where the Work is being done, and are grateful to be part of the team that God is using to do His end-time Work.
(Winnail's weekly update, March 15)
Translation: Nobody PANIC!
Doug has a lot in common with ancient King Canute who commanded the tide to turn back. The old 1970s strategies that worked so well for the Armstrongs are redundant in the 21st century. The Internet isn't going away, no matter how much Doug pouts, so he'd better get used to it. More and more members are no longer happy to be treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed on effluent... or tossed an occasional plastic bone to gnaw on (the mirage of an accredited sect-run university for example?)
Of course, Doug didn't resort to the cry "God is on His throne brethren!", so things can't have hit critical just yet.
Oh, wait, there is more:
Pre-Passover Trials: Jesus told His disciples at the Passover, “In the world you will have tribulation,” but said that with His help we can overcome through these trials (John 16:33). The Apostle Paul reveals that Satan will try to use personal crises, or attempts to disrupt or divide the Church, to undermine and shake our faith in God and leaders He has chosen (I Thessalonians 3:1-5). Satan seems to be most active in his efforts to confuse and discourage people just before the Passover and other Holy Days. The Bible clearly reveals that personal trials and Church disruptions are to be expected by Christians who are called to be part of God’s Church (I Peter 4:12). One of the keys to enduring trials and overcoming difficult circumstances is to exercise patience—trusting God to sort out confusing situations (James 1:2-8). God is on His throne. He is still guiding His work, as He has down through the ages. We cannot afford to let Satan get our minds off the meaning of the Holy Days that picture the plan and purpose that God is working out on this earth. We need to keep pre-Passover trials in proper perspective.
Translation: more of that effluent is about to hit the fan.
43 comments:
As usual, LCG and their surrogate mouthpiece Robert Thiel are playing loose with the facts, i.e. bearing false witness, i.e. lying. They claim a dozen LCG elders have left the past two years. Make that at least a dozen men are no longer in their ministry since the past six months! I think that would qualify as an "exodus." But, don't confuse them with the facts as they remain in their delusional spin zone.
The rate of elders leaving equals 4.3% annually. (12 gone out of 140 in 2 years).
At that rate HALF would be gone in a mere 14 years!
A far cry from "30% annual growth" that the "Philadelphian Work of the 1940s to 1970" achieved, is it not??
Lussenheide
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the legend say that King Canute did the "tide commanding" thing to demonstrate to his subjects that there are things that are completely out of the control of human leaders?
The LCG Yahoo forum had a comment yesterday that there is a group in Canada that is leaving or has left LCG. The implosion of the cult is happening.
Dennis said...
"I don't understand how the rising and falling back to earth of the planet Venus can attack the minds of the brethren at Passover."
MY COMMENT: Man, Herbie's lies and manipulations left you star-gazing! :-)
Steve K
You simply know a church by its fruit. In addition, even if the fruit is plastic it is still empty on the inside. Doug is just doing what any major/minor corporation does when it is falling apart, put your best false face forward.
The internet is a serious issue for all Armstrongite leaders everywhere. One of the principles of Armstrongism is the control and manipulation of information for expedient purposes. Back in the pre-Internet days, this is why ministers railed agains the mighty Grapevine. It represented uncontrolled information, never mind that it was usually accurate. The Grapevine conveyed valuable information that Armstrongite leaders wanted to suppress.
The internet may convey news and information that must be checked and verified, but how much worse can it be than the carefully configured news that comes from official Armstrongite media sources?
I am reminded of an incident that occurred back in the early Seventies. An AC graduate just happened to get a job with IBM. Soon Rod Meredith was spreading the idea that IBM was so impressed with AC that IBM wanted to hire as many AC grads as it possibly could. A different AC grad that I knew visited with Meredith and told him that this was a misrepresentation, that he knew the guy hired by IBM and that AC was not a factor in the hiring. He further advised Meredith that AC needed to have some kind of
"placement program" for its graduates. The idea that AC would need to market its graduates was not well received by Meredith.
We all have a wealth of WCG anecdotes that demonstate a clear principle. Spinmasters want to hype things of little significance and neglect actual responsibilities.
-- Neo
Here is how the "Remnant" Church of God will evolve.
Demographics show that about half of all the brethren will be deceased within 15 to 18 years.
Most of the "iconic" leadership of the COGs ie, Meredith,Hulme, Rittenbaugh, Flurry et al will also be deceased.
The iconic groups will be scattered and split apart, as all groups that rely on iconic leadership do when their "guru" dies leaving a power vaccuum.
The survivor will be UCG, as it does have in place set succession plans and its leaders or "the 12" do not necessarily have too much personal draw or personna to matter much if they die or are replaced.
UCG will pick up a good percentage of the remnant parts of the other deceased COGs, however, will probably only be in the 7 to 10 thousand member range and 80% of it will be concentrated in the 20 largest US markets, (equivalent to where there are Major League Baseball franchises.)
Some evidence of this trend can be found in FOT attendance of UCG, which is around 20,000 as opposed to their weekly attendance of around 12,000.
The 7 to 10 thousand UCG attendees 15 to 20 years from now will be basically very senior "senior citizens".
That is how the dice is rolling out for the COGs unless they can come up with a new and cutting edge way to convert the under 40 crowd. Attempts are being made, but results are still yet to be determined and are questionable.
Lussenheide
On one hand, I look forward to the demise of the ACOGs, because they will no longer be a force in ruining peoples' lives.
But, on a very real level, I feel for the members whose entire lives will be disrupted, their minds in a complete maelstrom as they adjust to the realization that whatever number of years they have invested in these organizations has been based on lies, and has largely been wasted. As all of us know here, it's a horrible process than one must undergo to get back to any kind of reality, or normalcy.
Some of the very aged, who became involved during the 1950s, have now lost decades of their lives to Armstrongism. I hate to say it, but it would almost be better for such people if their beliefs were not disrupted, and their Linus blanket remained in place to assist them into death.
Armstrongism is yet another gift that just seems to keep on giving.
BB
Better now for them to lose their worthless Linus blanket, and be saved - than keep it and be damned!
"But, on a very real level, I feel for the members whose entire lives will be disrupted, their minds in a complete maelstrom as they adjust to the realization that whatever number of years they have invested in these organizations has been based on lies, and has largely been wasted."
But most will never come to that conclusion. Many can never leave the COG mindset. In the event of a organizational meltdown, they will simply migrate to smaller and smaller groups, the more traditional, the better. Holding fast to God's Truth in the midst of Satan-inspired destruction of what they hold dear Little flock, indeed.
Paul
Jared is completely correct in his assertion that Canute or Knut demonstrated that there are some things that even a ruler cannot perform i.e. turn back the tide though some less enlightened mortals might try.
Should we tell these COGs to get KNUTTED.
jorgheinz
Dennis,
Perhaps you could enlighten the armstrongist's here on the blog with a unleavened sermon!
Day one: Start with a "bread" joke where everyone is (behaves like the joke is funny) in stitches! Then work up to how they should feel guilty for their sins that cause Jesus to hop up on that cross for them, JUST BEFORE the money changers pass the plate!
First day afternoon service: With the crowd of happy feast goers now half inebriated, tell them how the average offering is up from last year at this time! Most of the uneducated crowd will be too ashamed to remove their shoes (exposing toenail fungus) in order to do the math!
Kscribe.
Good Gavin writes
"Doug has a lot in common with ancient King Canute who commanded the tide to turn back. The old 1970s strategies that worked so well for the Armstrongs are redundant in the 21st century. The Internet isn't going away, no matter how much Doug pouts, so he'd better get used to it. More and more members are no longer happy to be treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed on effluent... or tossed an occasional plastic bone to gnaw on (the mirage of an accredited sect-run university for example?)"
But the fellowship can be very nice. It really is a lot more satisfying then the bellyaching that one finds on the web.
Real people...
Real Christians...
Ok, a bit quirky at times...
But I deal with all kinds of quirky people at work, so I am use to quirky. Our culture is full of quirky.
Most of these folks are OK with me. :)
"Demographics show that about half of all the brethren will be deceased within 15 to 18 years."
Great stats Luss, with thos numbers in mind, it would mean that basically everyone on this blog will be dead or near death. Really, time to get on with life, eh?
"Really, time to get on with life, eh?"
Sigh. I wonder, at Nuremberg, did any Nazis tell the court, in the face of recorded facts, that they should "move on?" To quit beating a dead horse?
"Herr Hitler is dead and we have lost the war. Now let's move on. Those of you who continue to disparage Herr Hitler need to get a life. He made mistakes, no? Everyone does. It seems that many here are bitter against the Nazi Party. This is understandable; many were hurt by the Nazi Party and are probably bitter and confused. But this is no reason to continually re-hash old pithy little grievances! You people need to get a life! Let us look foward."
Paul
"It's the theology, stupid."
With all of their focus on numbers...I would love to see the various COGs' list the percentage of congregants that were born or grew up in any xcg, not of their own choice, that still attend in their mid to late twenties.
***
charlie kieran said...
With all of their focus on numbers... I would love to see the various COGs' list the percentage of congregants that were born or grew up in any xcg, not of their own choice, that still attend in their mid to late twenties.
***
I doubt they would publish such numbers because they would paint a troubling picture. Over the years it's been my experience that kids growing up in "the Church" nearly always get out of Dodge as soon as they're old enough to make their own decisions.
Very few stick with it. Although once in a while someone who grew up in it comes back after 10-15 years.
At a guess, I'd say 95% leave and never come back... and that's being generous.
Sigh. I wonder, at Nuremberg, did any Nazis tell the court...
Sigh, Godwin's law proves true again. If you can't muster up real arguments, just call `em Nazis!
Can't muster any real arguments? Against Armstrongism? Number one, an argument does not have to be constructed. Just let the historical record speak for itself. But I guess that is the problem. It is similar to trying to convince a liberal that Bush isn't evil and stupid, or a conservative that Bush is evil and stupid. All facts which may support either viewpoint are either ignored or ridculously downplayed to the extent that they no longer have any bearing on the subject.
Paul
to the UCG member: Are you aware that when UCG started they were going to be so good, each local group would keep their money, pay their own expenses, then send the excess into headquarters, we would have a local board, everyone had a say about how things were going to be run, etc, etc. How much say did you have about going to Dallas? How much say did you have when electing Kilough or any other of your great white fathers? I know, I was there. Needles to say, I am not there anymore.
charlie kieran said...
"With all of their focus on numbers... I would love to see the various COGs' list the percentage of congregants that were born or grew up in any xcg, not of their own choice, that still attend in their mid to late twenties."
I can only speak for the LCG congregation in New Zealand. Of those young folk who grew up in WCG and who are old enough to decide for themselves; 77% are now baptised and others are still attending. We are talking about 13 children. (Before the gainsayers leap in, I admit we are probably an exception.)
BTW, lussenheide, we have a great bunch of "under 40" members. Let me pay tribute publicly to Elijah, Leata, Roini, Michael, Travis, and Janelle who, in their teens or very early twenties, are wonderful examples of young Christians.
Incidentally, two-thirds (about 50) of those attending in New Zealand had no dealings with WCG but have been called by God through the work of LCG's broadcast and publications.
kinnear
I think the question is what does the fact that "God is on his Throne" have to do with the decisions and actions of a bunch of Armstrongites?
And I am not sure what god they are referring to. As you know they believe in a god that has a body and sits on a throne literally(I guess because he needs a rest).
They have taken the anthropomorphic langauge of the Bible and used it to construct the concept of a humanoid god.
I recall talking to a WCG Pastor one time about the Mercy Seat. He said that it was described in the Old Testament as a throne and is a kind of replica of God's throne.
Then later, I was disillusioned to discover that the Mercy Seat was not a "little model throne" at all but referred to the lid of the Ark. The whole mistaken throne imagery of the Mercy Seat came from the word "seat", which in modern English may mean a chair, hence, the throne idea. But in Elizabethan English "seat" simply means place. It survives in such terms as "county seat" for the location of the headquarters for a county government. Or the expression "the seat of my senses."
This is an example of how someone can take a misunderstanding of language and spin it up to create a mistaken concept. While this is a simple observation, Armstrongism is rife with this kind of error, including, unfortunately and chillingly, the erroneous way in which they identify their god.
Armstrongites would be the first to tell you that they do not worship the same God that Christians do. No words could be more truly spoken.
-- Neo
"Seat" refers to the location where a ruler or judge dispenses his authority. It originated that way because the judge would literally have a seat in that location where he (or in rare circumstances, she) would sit as he issued his judgments or presided over his court. Therefore it was reasonable to conclude that "mercy seat" was meant literally, not just figuratively. ("See," from Latin sede meaning "seat," as in "episcopal see," has a related origin -- the bishop's cathedra or chair is literally placed in his main church, hence "cathedral.")
Okay, etymology lesson over . . .
In the area i attended for over 30 years, only ONE kid grew up and still is a part of the church, outside of WCG. In WCG now only about thirteen of those kids and young adults are still around attending with any of the splinters. That is very telling and after i made it known to Dave Pack, that HWA did not seem to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, he really let me have it, all 6'6" of him. He knew i was correct in the numbers, as he should have.
rod 2
On the numbers thing, there are probably any number of demographic factors which would influence whether "second generation Christians" would remain in the church.
Several which immediately come to mind would be how violently or mildly the church's child rearing principles were applied in the individual families, whether the local minister was even handed or Hitlerian in the management of the local congregation, the quality of education which the young people were receiving in their local school system, the effects of the practicing of the doctrines on the family, (e.g. tithing causing horrible poverty, or the medical doctrines causing the loss of a family member), the influences of a spouse or his/her family on the second generation Christian, and finally, just basic personality and attitude.
It would be interesting to know if children's ages at the point when the parents joined the cult had an influence on that child leaving. Some kids knew no other way of life from birth. Others were well rooted and possessed a sense of normalcy before their parents took the plunge. Frankly, I've known people in both categories who left.
My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, because I was one of the ones who was dragged along by my parents, and can't for the life of me understand how any clear thinking adult could make a rational or conscious decision to become part of an ACOG.
BB
Dennis,you might have an ADVERSARY in Gavin when it comes to receiving tithes and offerings.
Word has it that Gavin, the HIGH PRIEST of ex-COG-DOM, is about to reveal his recent ordination and details of where all that lovely lolly can be sent.Of course,it will be sanctified and used for holy purposes only.
Jorgheinz
A UCG member said...
"Sigh. I wonder, at Nuremberg, did any Nazis tell the court...
Sigh, Godwin's law proves true again..."
Unless you have Mein Kampf in your top desk drawer! The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler youth group. Remember, they were to be the standard for all the youth in the church, just as the young Aryan blond hair and blue eyed youth were the hope and goal of Adolf for the future of his unhappy regime!
In the video "Birthday Bash 05" we see Adolf meeting with the Hitler youth group in the same fashion as Herbie did, also made plain in the same video.
The young ambassadors WERE Herbie's version of the Hitler youth group!
So as you can see, using uncle Adolf as a comparison to the false prophet of your religion (that being Herbie W. Armstrong) is justifiable in every sense.
Happy Trails....
Kscribe.
"My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, because I was one of the ones who was dragged along by my parents, and can't for the life of me understand how any clear thinking adult could make a rational or conscious decision to become part of an ACOG."
BB
MY COMMENT: I was in the Navy when I started attending "the true church". None of my family was a part of it. I always considered myself rational and clear thinking, but then again, I swallowed everything that Herbie and Teddy taught hook, line, and sinker. I never read anything to counteract what I was reading, nor was I ever a religious type. Anyone who spoke against "us", I considered a dissident, demon-possessed, in a bad attitude, and/or never really had the Spirit of God in the first place. I was either taught this from the pulpit, or I heard it from other "christians" in the church. After all, "we" had the "truth", and all others were deceived. We were keeping the sabbath and the "holydays", which were the sign that we were the true church. It took me a long time to finally wake up completely, although there were red flags that went up through the years. It wasn't until I realized that UCG was going the same way as the old WCG(hierarchical government, tithing, "ordained ministers", ministerial control of the money, sabbath and the Jewish holidays) that I finally decided to split. To make a long story short, I have proven that all of these are false doctrines, and are used by the greedy organizations in order to maintain control of their followers.
Steve K
"I wonder, at Nuremberg, did any Nazis tell the court, in the face of recorded facts, that they should "move on?" To quit beating a dead horse?"
Nuremburg did peter out within a few years. Paul, think about it, you are acting like 'Hitler is still alive' just like the PT stated in the 1960s. Which as about 19 years after the war. Isn't that a time cycle (really just kidding.)
Nuremburg did not go on and on for that long and you have a verdict out on a dead man and a dead church.
"The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler youth group..."
You are a knuckle head. DOH.
"The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler youth group..."
I always knew there was something creepy about Big Beak
Get therapy
The fact is, the Mercy Seat may have meant a chair figuratively, but there was no literal tiny throne on the top of the Ark. It meant just the lid of the Ark.
It is a wild stretch to believe that the Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler Jugend. They were intended to project the fresh, youthful image of true happiness, as defined by HWA.
The fact is that they were just kids who could sing and dance and had a good appearance. I knew one of the guys in this group and his behavior was reprehensible.
This is an example of managed information, managed by Armstrongite leaders. The Young Ambassadors, like the Young Republicans and the Young Democrats, have a political profile and a propaganda value.
But, then again, this is what the Armstrongite lay membership wanted. They wanted the fantasy of Armstrongism to be true. There are many ex-Armstrongites, some of my relatives and friends included, who are disaffected because Armstrongism was not true, never mind that Christianity is a much better deal. If they can't believe in Armstrongism, they won't believe in anything.
-- Neo
My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, because I was one of the ones who was dragged along by my parents, and can't for the life of me understand how any clear thinking adult could make a rational or conscious decision to become part of an ACOG.
BB
BB,
It is because we didn't know what we know now.
No internet was available for my research.
I was seeking for answers and at that time WWCG seemed to have what I had started studying on my own.
And I didn't live close to HDQ to check them out personally.
Thankfully, my children have not felt 'dragged' but are now very carefully and cautiously still seeking answers and have not given up on God because of the mistakes of WWCG doctrine.
And we openly discuss issues and share info we may come across that is helpful. And we are trying our best not to 'fall' for false doctrine again, but keeping an open mind to possibilities.
One thing we have agreed upon...there is more to learn and God is greater than HWA taught.
a forum friend from over yonder :)
Young Ambassadors ...
Did you ever notice how the women selected for the Young Ambassadors all had the same exact hair style? Long, layers, soft curls.
I always enjoyed looking for the woman whose hair didn't completely conform to God's approved hairstyle.
Did you ever notice how the women selected for the Young Ambassadors all had the same exact hair style? Long, layers, soft curls.
The Farrah Fawset look....all the highschool girls had it too.
Look in old year books.
Me thinks some are seeing things that aren't there..what with Nazi talk etc.
I heard Ted compare the YA with the Mormon choir. It was just another way of looking good and wholesome..at least wcg didn't make the women wear top knots like some extreme churches did in those
days.
Anonymous said...
"..at least wcg didn't make the women wear top knots like some extreme churches did in those
days."
MY COMMENT: No, but they made damn sure that the women were treated like second-class citizens, had long hair, measured those skirt lengths, and checked them out for no make-up, or make-up, or no make-up, or make-up. Don't you just luv "christianity"? Hey, at least we get the bread(sin)out, and sacrifice Jesus once a year.
Steve K
The YA were just another propaganda tool invented by HWA. They were used to project what the "ideal" WCG youth should be like. Did you ever see a YA that was chubby? Or ugly? Or have anything other than a million-dollar smile on his/her face?
The YAs were set up as a standard to which all youth in the church were expected to measure up against.
"Paul, think about it, you are acting like 'Hitler is still alive' just like the PT stated in the 1960s."
Hitler left no legacy besides brain-addled Aryan gangs. The Armstrong is legacy is alive and well. When I was in the COG's, HWA never really figured in to my criticisms, besides the obvious. It was because the Trooth did not come from HWA. The Trooth came from the Bible. But when I discovered that there is no Trooth, HWA began to figure prominently in my criticisms because he is responsible for all of this. He created it all. The theology, the mindest, the lifestyle.
The original point was that any time valid criticism of HWA is made in the context of the current COG situation, I hear, especially from the more moderate COG'ers, to "just move on," or "get a life," as if those who make such criticisms sit at home, weeping with rage over HWA and lashing out like an obsessed maniac. This is not the case. It is valid criticism of a legacy that continues to this day and will continue. A legacy that continues to hold people in bondage. To tell one to "move on" is to deny that there is a problem. I think mostly it is that it makes COG'ers uncomfortable to hear and see the facts, the reality, because their faith in God is linked to the COG theology, which was created by HWA. To criticize HWA is to attack their faith and religion.
Anonymous said...
To criticize HWA is to attack their faith and religion. I hear, especially from the more moderate COG'ers, to "just move on," or "get a life," <<
How sad but true! Words that insult like "Get therapy"
I guess there is something "wrong" with I, the Scribe? I criticized the herbster! Yes there is something wrong with me! I should accept the herbal solution and just "accept" what was/is puked from the pulpit! That is objective thinking, right? Think not!
You may say: "I know, just go away and allow me my fantasy that herbie was Gauuds one true apostle." Or.. "You threaten my belief system! Stop or I will drink kool-aid and then you will know I am serious Sam!!!"
Purge and puke at the thought of lying to oneself in order to AVOID ADMITING that all your time and $$$(life)is wasted on herbie and his stolen religion.......
Kscribe.
Dennis, you wrote
"actually, and tis just my opinion...The YA's were more modeled after Up with People which was very popular then and did not have sinsister undercurrents."
On the Orange Papers site, there's a chapter on "Up with People".
Here's the addy if you'd like to check it out:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot720.html
~Mel
Actually, this was a fairly common model of the day, the squeaky clean young singers, who entertained by harmonizing on the classics, smiling all the while for the audience.
There was a dinner theatre down in Huntington Beach called "Tibby's". The main attraction was such a group, who functioned as waiters and waitresses during the dinner hour, then got up on stage and entertained the audience.
There was even a spoof of such people on one of the very early "Saturday Night Live" programs. Ray Charles was the musical guest, and the cast was in the background backing him up on one of his songs, dressed and groomed as what could easily have been recognized as YA. Dan Aykroyd was acting as front man, and suddenly said, "Hi, Mr. Charles! We're the Young Caucasians, and we'd just like to say that we really loved your song, 'What Did I Say?'
We bikers used to group such squeaky clean individuals under the general derisive term "Citizens".
BB
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