Tuesday, 1 January 2008

Clever Gerry


In case you missed it, there's a new COG publication which launched in December. This one hails from the fringes of Armstrongism, the PCG. Of course, fringe is a relative term; compared with some of the others out there I guess Flurry is inner fringe.

In any case, The Trumpet Weekly joins the PCG stable, and it's a clever concept.

For starters it's available online, not in print, so no mail-out costs. In exchange for shelling out for an easily edited design template, PCG gets to produce a nice looking newsletter with few ongoing costs.

Clever Gerry.

Next Gerry elevates his "Young Turks" (son Stephen, Brad MacDonald, Robert Morley and Joel Hilliker) as columnists, complete with by-line and picture, giving the impression that they actually know something about what they're writing. Add in a slop-bucket full of fear and loathing-style political commentary, and there's a guaranteed knee-jerk from the target readership who have both their insecurities and prejudices stroked.

Clever Gerry.

Of course, by huffing, puffing and pouting, Gerry and his protégés then give the impression that they - and they alone - are in the know. Build up the straw man then knock him down.

Clever Gerry.

But you have to wonder at a headline like German Fascism Is Conquering Kosovo! After all, the author is Gerry himself, a supreme spiritual führer in his own bailiwick surrounded by obsequious, goose-stepping lieutenants: pot and kettle stuff.

A PDF of last week's Weekly is available for those with an iron constitution, a perverse sense of humor, or a world-view somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun.

109 comments:

Tired Skeptic said...

The article on the Pope declaring martyrdom as an act of love was interesting.

It should be noted that for all the talk, not a single leader within the churches of God has died as a martyr yet.

Flurry, Pack, Meredith and all the others can redeem themselves now if but they die as martyrs: Let them all die for the good of us all as an act of love.

DennisDiehl said...

I believe Gerry is more the Flurry with the fringe on top :)

DennisDiehl said...

I am going to start the Astro-Church of God this year and get back into the money. The Lord knows I need it.

I will have 12 disciples beginning with Aquarius the Waterman and having such intriguing names as Pices the Fisherman, Taurus the Bull, Aries son of the Lamb, Gemini the Twins, Leo of Judah, Crabby Iscariot, Cancer Tobehealed,
Virgo the Unmarried, Libra-rache, Scorpiolis, Saggitarius the Crest Fallen, Capri the Corny One.

THey will will revolve around me the Narcissistic Sun.

Doctrines:

No bad news,

Only good news.

Love like you never loved before

Keep your money

Send for our free
booklet, "Prophecy Sucks"

We don't have gun laps because we are not gun friendly

Free Booklet; What's the Point of Celbrating Jesus Circumcision?

stuff like that~!

I will be called Mr. Marduk and we will celebrate the Equinoxes and Solstices as they should be celebrated...

I am looking for a few Young Turks to help me out.

Lussenheide said...

FLASH FLASH!!!
THE LATEST POST ON GERALD FLURRY'S BLOG...

In case you missed it, there's a new COG publication which launched in 2006. This one hails from the fringes of Armstrongism, the "Ambassador Watch" . Of course, fringe is a relative term; compared with some of the others out there I guess Gavin is outer fringe supreme.

In any case, "The Ambassador Watch" joins the "former" WCG stable, and it's a clever concept.

For starters it's available online, not in print, so no mail-out costs. In exchange for shelling out for an easily edited design template, "Ambassador Watch" gets to produce a nice looking newsletter with few ongoing costs.

Clever Gavin.

Next Gavin elevates his "Old Turks" (Lussenheide, Diehl, Becker and Byker Bob) as columnists, giving the impression that they actually know something about what they're writing. Add in a slop-bucket full of negativity and loathing-style political commentary, and there's a guaranteed knee-jerk from the target readership who have both their insecurities and prejudices stroked.

Clever Gavin.

Of course, by huffing, puffing and pouting, Gavin and his protégés then give the impression that they - and they alone - are in the know. Build up the straw man then knock him down.

Clever Gavin.

But you have to wonder at a headline like "Armstrong Kookiness Is Conquering the COG!" After all, the author is Gavin himself, a supreme spiritual nutcase in his own bailiwick surrounded by other obsequious, "whack cases": pot and kettle stuff.

A website of last week's Weekly is available for those with an iron constitution, a perverse sense of humor, or a world-view somewhat to the Left of "The Marx Brothers".

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Tired Skeptic said...

One wonders if Bill is bucking to be the first martyr.

Bill, here's a news flash: Your martyrdom will count for nothing, since you are not in the power structure of the churches of God.

Wonderful satyr though.

Tired Skeptic said...

I will be called Mr. Marduk and we will celebrate the Equinoxes and Solstices as they should be celebrated...

What?! No vegan postponements!

Philistine!

DennisDiehl said...

Geez Luss, didn't realize your were such a sarcastic and AW unfrienldy guy...

Learn something new here.

Lussenheide said...

Dennis & Tired Skeptic and all:

Skeptic wrote: "One wonders if Bill is bucking to be the first martyr.

Bill, here's a news flash: Your martyrdom will count for nothing, since you are not in the power structure of the churches of God.

Wonderful satyr though".

RESPONSE: I would propose that those who regularly write and post on the net, or in "The Journal" are more well known and influential than most local ministers, and DO influence decisions made by those in the "Power Structure". I am amazed at how much influence can be achieved simply by sitting at your computer in your boxer shorts.

Also, I believe you meant to say that you enjoy the SATIRE not as you put it, which was "SATYR". A Satyr is the male equivalent of a nymphomaniac. However, if "Satyr" was your intent, I appreciate the praise in either case.

As far as martyrdom, I cannot be killed as I am not a real person. I am just a computer generated BOT, with a COG programmed algorythm. An advanced "Max Headroom" if you like.

RESPONSE TO DENNIS:
A little "grab ass" bench jockeying amongst our own is fun. When I was a teen playing on ball teams in East Los Angeles, nothing was sacred, even guys on your own team! You teased about each others looks, sisters , moms, clothes et al.

One of the problems in the COG was that it was very humorless. A little self deprecating humor is good. It shows that you are not stuck up, or full of your own importance.

In case you missed the "satire" Dennis, the header was "THE LATEST POST OF GERALD FLURRY"S BLOG". IE, this is how Gerald Flurry would respond to Gavin's original post. With that caveat, I hope you see the ironic wit.

PS- Your Mom wore Army Boots, and dressed you funny!

Luv & Peace
Bill Lussenheide , Menifee, CA USA

Tom Mahon said...

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

>>>Next Gavin elevates his "Old Turks" (Lussenheide, Diehl, Becker and Byker Bob) as columnists, giving the impression that they actually know something about what they're writing. Add in a slop-bucket full of negativity and loathing-style political commentary, and there's a guaranteed knee-jerk from the target readership who have both their insecurities and prejudices stroked. etc., etc.<<<

The whole of your post is absolutely superb. Talk about being hoist one's own petard!

On this post alone, I believe you should be allowed the become a member of of that elite group of satirists, who have mastered the art of deconstruction.

Anonymous said...

Bill...don't mind me, it's early. I understand. :)

Dennis

Anonymous said...

Dennis,

Be careful of trademark infringements with Major League Baseball if you launch a local congregation in Houston.

It would be known as the "Houston Astro Church of God".

Richard

Anonymous said...

The WCG ministers, including Mike Feazell are still still trying to figure out what is the Gospel over on http://thesurprisinggodblog.wcg.org/

Mike seems to have the answer for all the guys. They just aren't reading the right books Mike recommends and can't even talk about the topic since it depends on what "is" is until they read the books. Mike's not real big, nor are any of them, on quoting the actual Bible these days.

One minister is trying to figure out why Paul gets to write most of the NT and the disciples don't and Paul doesn't seem to quote Jesus or anything about his life in the Gospels.

Should I clue him in?

Dennis

Anonymous said...

Richard, you are right, and I'd have to be careful about Astro-Turf patents! yikes. Ok, maybe I'll skip the whole thing.

Den

Anonymous said...

Dennis,

Clue them in, and then send them a bill for consulting services rendered.

By strange coincidence, you bill should be equivelent to the retirement package you should have received from the WCG.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Oh Richard, thanks, however just to mention a retirement is to launch some like Tom on some "the fallen sons of Satan deserve only the lake of fire" It makes me feel bad all over again for ever having heard of the WCG.

I bet Tom can't resist.

Den

Tired Skeptic said...

Bill, I know exactly what I am doing and really did intend Satyr. I'm afraid you have missed the joke... which makes it even more funny... at your expense.

And, say, wasn't Max Headroom martyred? Electronic versions are not exempt. You are so dead! As are we all.

Have you ever thought what would happen to the CoGs ever there were real martyrs based on belief [not on cleaning out the shallow end of the gene pool, which might be a good thing]? Imagine half the Council of Elders of United being martyred publicly for their beliefs... well, not beliefs exactly, just their teachings. What would happen to the UCG membership?

Mere smarmy weekly fellowship associated with vacation planning for the faithful would empty out both the coffers and congregations quicker than the speed of light.

And Flurry? From a secret location in an undisclosed country... A PLACE OF SAFETY for PCG leaders only....

Cowards all -- a sure indication that Tom was right about "The Pride of Life".

Boxer shorts indeed -- you dress in that for your briefs?

Lussenheide said...

Tired Skeptic:

I know that some post here annonymously or use "pen names" for certain legitimate privacy reasons. I appreciate that in any who post here. This post is not aimed at you in any fashion.

However, there is a certain irony to me that someone who is using a "pen name" would call others "cowards" or "fearful of being martyrs".

May I inquire to you "Tired Skeptic" on just how the "powers that be" will find you so that you can be martyred for your sacred beliefs??

I tried looking you up in the phone book on Google, but nothing came up under "tired skeptic".

Agree with me, hate me, laugh at or with me, judge me, but you can say this much...Guys like Gavin, Becker , Diehl , Myself and others are willing to take the flack of being outspoken and in being known, and letting our full identity be out there.

It does come with a certain price. I have COG friends from years gone by refuse to speak with me, I am not welcome to visit any "org" church or FOT site for old times sake and this all the while still maintaining and actively promoting and practicing as a Sabbatarian and Feast observer in the general tradition.

I am a believer in a free press. There has to be a "checks and balance system" . I believe that analysis of failure is important for progress. I believe in "creative destruction" and I believe that the "customer" ie, the consumer of a product (in this case the COG) has right and duty to their opinion so that said operation can improve. There has to be a system of feedback and response in order to have progress.

This is why I have written across the internet for many years. I decided long ago to "man up" and pay the price for my opinion by always signing my name and location. Will you?

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Tired Skeptic said...

A choice for 2008. Just look for someone who doesn't post any more under their own moniker. Many know me. Call it "a year of release" if you must.

I have been martyred, it's just that I'm not dead yet. And also, the COE calling down fire from heaven didn't work because they don't have the faith....

Kscribe said...

I read this in Flurry's rag concerning the dollar: Even
rapper Jay-Z dissed the dollar in his recent video, “Blue Magic.” In scenes celebrating the excess of wealth in Manhattan’s shimmering glass canyons, the cameras cut repeatedly not to images of $100 bills—but
of crisp, 500 euro notes.....


The end for the American dollar is near! Flurry now quotes rappers as a authority on economics!

This jackass will pick anything out of the news and put a end time spin on it. Really a sick puppy. Someone take him to the vet!

See the proof Flurry offers here

Bamboo_bends said...

Lussenheide said...

.....A website of last week's Weekly is available for those with an iron constitution, a perverse sense of humor, or a world-view somewhat to the Left of "The Marx Brothers".

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA



I think this calls for a meeting of the Council of Elders at the New Zealand Home Orfice!

We certainly must question whether Mr Lussenheide was ever truly converted to Gavinism!

I call for his seat on the Council of Elders to be uprooted and cast into the Lake of Fire as an example to all those who would question the government of God and Gavin's calling as blog Apostle for this end time work!

Bamboo_bends said...

Kscribe said...

I read this in Flurry's rag concerning the dollar: Even
rapper Jay-Z dissed the dollar in his recent video, “Blue Magic.” In scenes celebrating the excess of wealth in Manhattan’s shimmering glass canyons, the cameras cut repeatedly not to images of $100 bills—but
of crisp, 500 euro notes.....



What Flurry omits is the fact that there IS a 500 note in Euros and currently no 500 note in Dollars available makes it the defacto choice among drug dealers when they have to ship gobs of cash around the world.

Robert said...

Just checking in to wish you a happy new year and all the best for the months ahead.

Regarding PCG, I once was going to join the group back in the 1990s. I had a visit with a deacon who asked me if I believed HWA was the Elijah to come who restored all things. Suffice to say I said to him that I didn't think HWA restored all things. I had a few calendar issues at the time after receiving James Russell's booklet on Postponements: Another Mystery of the Ages.

The deacon told me to come back when I was convinced that HWA restored all things. The funny thing is that the deacon has since left Flurry's group.

I think God gave me a lucky escape!

Bamboo_bends said...

Dennis said...

One minister is trying to figure out why Paul gets to write most of the NT and the disciples don't and Paul doesn't seem to quote Jesus or anything about his life in the Gospels.

Should I clue him in?

Dennis



The old stacked deck at the Council of Nicea.

Its hard to admit the obvious when you are so wedded to it being the "word of God". Conservative theologians have that so drummed into their heads it becomes a mind block. They'd be better off sticking to the idea of inspiration rather than literal or incarnation word of God for the book.

They're not going to see it until they get over Bibliotry. Stop worshipping a book and it'll become clear.

Kscribe said...

Lussenheide said...
I know that some post here annonymously or use "pen names" for certain legitimate privacy reasons...

Some of us have a reason the keep our names secret. We have children who are at risk if exposed to mentally unstable people in the COGlets. Also I might add, if I wish to attend/spy on certain events in one of the COGlets, I wish to be welcomed and trusted with all information that I may acquire. This of course is not true in Gerrie's little cult of horrors. For the God awful church it is, expect their demented vision to appall the general public even more in 2008. There are tapes of his sermons and I must say he is as downcast as Wild Bill (Faithful Flock.) But Bill has one up on Gerry. Bill is sane! (Well as much as any herbalite can be!)

Lussenheide said...

Bamboo---HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY GAVIN LOYALTY!

I read every post ever by Gavin, I took and graduated with a DOCTORATE in his AW Correspondence course, and was baptised personally by Gavin in a sulphur pond at New Zealand headquarters itself!

I have been a leading Evangelist for Gavin for many years now, and I also was the "Gold Gloves Champion" in Menifee as a youth, and I have tithed faithfully all of my "M&Ms" to Gavin to further this glorious work.

I believe that you are using this controversy to further YOUR OWN AMBITIONS in Gavin's Called Out Work, using the same dastardly methods as STANLEY RADER!

Taking advantage of Gavin as he works on Ambassador Watch "OVER 300DAYS A YEAR" and ages with mild senility.

I call for a "sit in" to STOP BAMBOO at Ambassdor Watch Headquarters by all TRUE GAVIN SUPPORTERS starting January 3rd,2008 the 29th anniversary of the sit in at Ambassador College. It should be noted that this is "Prophecy In Action" as 29 years equals EXACTLY 1.5263157 19 year prophetic time cycles!

I am also announcing a 30 minute fast to support this cause.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Kscribe said...

Robert said...
Regarding PCG, I once was going to join the group back in the 1990s....

Even if you had joined, your bright enough that you would have figured it out. All it would take is that old coot Gerry calling himself "That Prophet."

There are few, of the young, who remain when they have the choice to leave in their power. It may take a few years of exposure to the real world to start thinking freely. This can be deadly for the cult long term. Gerry knows this, hence his goofy little un-accredited brainwashing college that serves up doses of fear to keep them in the fold of Satan!

Tom Mahon said...

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

>>>Agree with me, hate me, laugh at or with me, judge me, but you can say this much...Guys like Gavin, Becker , Diehl , Myself and others are willing to take the flack of being outspoken and in being known, and letting our full identity be out there.<<<

I couldn't agree more! Anyone who is afraid to sign his or her name to the comments they post are cowards, and are behaving like those ministers who were afraid to openly disagree with Tkach senior. Such people can never be trusted!

Gavin said...

Excuse me Bill, did you say "M&M"s?...

It is with deep concern and many tears brethren, that I have to tell you that NO M&Ms have been received here at headquarters. In view of this evident LACK OF FAITH and DISSIMULATION at the HIGHEST levels of this GRATE Work - and I do mean GRATE ;-) - I must regretfully SUSPEND Mr Lussenheide from all responsibilities. He will be taking a six-month sabbatical in Vegas: the ideal location to reflect and REPENT.

Now we will take a break before the main sermon while Mr Diehl leads us in hymn number 45, "Twas not a foe that did deride." This will be followed by a special Holy Day offering, so please have your M&Ms ready.

DennisDiehl said...

"I must regretfully SUSPEND Mr Lussenheide from all responsibilities. He will be taking a six-month sabbatical in Vegas: the ideal location to reflect and REPENT"

And even though, death shall them seize, and to the tomb... alive they shall go down....we wish him no ill will.

Don't forget that part!

Now let's sing out and SMILE brethren!

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Gavin,

I respectfully wish to respectfully withdraw from your Church. I am troubled sir, and I hope that you will bear no ill will toward me. It has come to my attention through Mr. Lussenhide that members are being abused and tithe money is being disrespectfully spent. I do not listen to rumors or read dissenting e-mails, but I have heard that you have used third tithe money to visit the Hobbit village set used in the Lord of the Rings. While Mr. Lussenhide tearfully admits to using tithe money in a similar manner, he is sorry and has repented and never will do it again. God wants us to continue this work, and after much long and tearful and respectful prayer, I believe that you are not carrying out the work as God intends.

With tearful, respectful love in Christ,

Paul Ray, Elder of The Lussen Church of God (Incorporated twenty minutes ago)

Anonymous said...

Never in the past hour has God worked through men with such POWER! The Luss Church of God (Incorporated twenty-five minutes ago) is unveiling a new media format to continue the Work. Tentative titles include:

Ambassador Scope

Ambassador Search

Ambassador Watcher

But brethren, Mr. Lussenhide cannot yet transform rocks into greenbacks! Remember Malachi! Do not turn your back on God, and do with his tithe what you please! The Work continues, lost and scattered brethren!

Paul R, Elder

Tired Skeptic said...

I hereby disfellowship myself from the Ambassador Watch Church of God where winter is summer and fall is spring. It's too bloody confusing....

...must be a first for someone to disfellowship himself, and being that I'm an apostle and prophet... well....

The Work continues, lost and scattered brethren!

But before I become an outsider looking in at the infidels, please correct the above which should read, The Work continues, to create lost and scattered brethren!

DennisDiehl said...

Dear Elder Ray,

Greetings here from Hobblotte...

Arwen
Barliman Butterbur
Beechbone
Beregond
Bergil
Bilbo Baggins
Fredegar Bolger
Tom Bombadil
Boromir
Meriadoc Brandybuck
Bregalad
Celeborn
Celebrían
Ceorl
Tom Cotton
Círdan
Denethor
Durin's Bane
Elfhelm
Elladan and Elrohir
Elrond
Éomer
Éothain
Éowyn
Erestor
Erkenbrand
Faramir
Farmer Maggot
Bill Ferny
Forlong the Fat
Galadriel
Elanor Gardner
Hamfast Gamgee
Samwise Gamgee
Gamling
Gandalf
Gildor Inglorion
Gimli (Middle-earth)
Glorfindel
Harry Goatleaf
Goldberry
Gollum
Gothmog (Third Age)
Grimbold
Gríma
Halbarad
Haldir of Lórien
Háma
Húrin the Tall
Imrahil
Legolas
Marhari
Mouth of Sauron
Old Man Willow
Orophin
Radagast (Middle-earth)
Saruman
Sauron
Shelob
Théoden
Peregrin Took
Treebeard
Two Watchers
Watcher in the Water
Will Whitfoot
Witch-king of Angmar

send their greetings here at Headquarters.


As you should know..Elders are a dime a dozen and we have plenty of Hobbits who can fill your shoes.

Even the Apostle Paul said, the the Jew I am a Jew, to the Gentile, a gentile. To the Hobbit, a Hobbit. Any visitation by Apostle Rumney, to the Lord of the Rings village, is in the spirt of doing the work.

Actually the Hobbits have a prophecy of a man in a white suit visiting them who will be a messenger to them from the true work. We are using some of your recent tithe money to provide Mr. Rumney with such a suit even as we speak.

A Greeeeeeeat door is opening for our work among the Hobbits and we wish you could see beyond your petty differences with Apostle Rumney and join in.

But if not, we do wish you no ill will but that rather you would repent and get with the program.

If you stay..we'll send you a genuine replica of the Lord's Ring of your very own. Hurry, quantities are limited and we can't make this offer to everyone.


In Him
Gollum
Lord of Stayput n Senditnow

Anonymous said...

Brethryn, it is with tears and sorrow that I inform you of Mr. Lussenhide's tearful prayer five minutes ago. Mr. Lussenhide, on behalf of THE LIVING GOD has ordered a pre-emptive disfellowshipment on one who is not among us, and now sadly, cannot ever be, Mr. Tired Skeptic. Mr. Skeptic has shown a callous (thought we love him in Christ) and frankly, demonic (may he repent so we can love him at a distance)attitude toward the Work of THE LIVING GOD. Therefore, brethren, we must shun him in love and pray that he can rise from the fetid pit of sin that he has dug for himself. Disfellowshipping him before he has a chance to join the Lussen Church of God will statistically reduce the chance that he may affect our minds with his Satanic thoughts.

In much weeping in wringing of hands, and above all, Love in Christ (a double portion),

Elder Paul R.

Anonymous said...

Brethryn, as of now all correspondence from any member of AW is forbidden.

Also, D. Diehl is pre-emptively disfellowshipped.

That is all.

With love and tears, ect,
Super Elder Paul R.

Anonymous said...

Dennis,

Sorry to make you feel bad.

If it is any consolation, I lost a chunk of my personal retirement fund from another set of corporate crooks in the WorldCom stock fraud. WorldCom corporate raiders used their bogus stock price to buy my company, and then bankrupt it in the financial fraud. But, at least in my case, I have the satisfaction of knowing the WorldCom white collar crooks are doing jail time, unlike the little Judas Joey Tkach in your case.

Knowing what I know about people of WCG background from the Armstrong 1960s and 1970s era, and reading about what subsequently transpired after the death of HWA, I believe Judas Joey Tkach can truly boast, "it was like stealing candy from a baby".

Richard

Anonymous said...

Dear Super Elder Paul

I know you are, but what am I.

Why has Satan filled your unsorry heart with sawdust. See the feet of your Lussmeister..well your stinky feet shall in likemanner be stinky.

Now go and sin some more. So let it be written, so let it be done.

I propose a conference of reconciliation. Seminar and break out sessions will cover the following.

Luss them and be healed...

Lussers shall not inheirt the Kingdom of God

How to Luss your soul and gain the whole world. (Did I say that right?)

Are we in the Luss Days?

Can anything Good Come out of California?

Is it Worth Lussing Your Soul Over?

and of course,

How to Save Second Tithe

Uses for Second Tithe. It's God's not yours.

How you Can help the church by Willing your Second Tithe Now

Send it In!

401K's Let 'em Luss

Suckering the Brethren in Love

How to Keep Your Best Jokes in 3x5 Card File

I think we can work thiS out. Wa$ there any praticular favor the AW COG could do for you to change your mind$

Gollum..Coordinator of Reconciliation

DennisDiehl said...

Oh no problem Richard. I have this example in our family of Eastman Kodak doing everything they said they'd do for Dad when he retired and they did. He has been retired 30 years and he worked there 45. He even buys Fuji Film and they still like him.

WCG on the other hand had this great miracle from Jesus, and they ran short of money they say. They don't like you to buy Fuji film.

I have my doubts about the poverty they say hit them. Personally I think that if Jesus knew he was tricking us all those years, he could he spoken up sooner and told Bozo the Pastor General to lay up in store such things as they had. I guess Jesus can't inspire you to lay up treasure on earth because that kinda breaks his rules.

Not to worry. The Maytag Refrigerator boxes are even stronger than ever and can last months under a bridge if you place them correctly out of the rain and runoff.

Besides, Joe, Bernie and Dan all said "be warmed and be filled" and that they were praying for me. Curtis May in the office of reconciliation even said "Good Luck Dennis." So...see, it's all good!

I once told Joe we needed a better retirement system than driving into a tree at retirement age. He laughed..gosh, I wish he hadn't laughed. He never said anything.

My brother in law saved them from having to help him and my sister after 40 years in the ministry. He , by his own admission, died of a broken heart well before the had to pay him a retirement. So it'a all good again see...for them.

DennisDiehl said...

PS
But again, I hesitate to sound too human here as it can stir up the "you were a son of a bitch minister and deserve what you get."
in some of our readers.

That's kinda sucky. But that which does not kill me, merely snuffs me out..

Tired Skeptic said...

Brethren,

Some time ago [several hours at least], I disfellowshipped myself to turn me over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh to save my spirit.

Unfortunately, it's not working, and I've been blessed more than ever.

Therefore, and in accordance with the Scripture, I now publicly mark myself for causing divisions. It's more than United ever did for me.

We shall see what will happen from this sad event and whether or not others will be spared further divisions.

I'm beginning to think the whole thing was a bad idea because, though I'm not entirely certain, I'm pretty sure that I'm not responsible for any divisions because they seemed to have happened without my help at all -- which really leaves me quite depressed, being so powerless and all.

Bamboo_bends said...

Lussenheide said...

Bamboo---HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY GAVIN LOYALTY!

I read every post ever by Gavin, I took and graduated with a DOCTORATE in his AW Correspondence course, and was baptised personally by Gavin in a sulphur pond at New Zealand headquarters itself!


I thought I smelled the scent of hell itself upon you!

I have been a leading Evangelist for Gavin for many years now, and I also was the "Gold Gloves Champion" in Menifee as a youth, and I have tithed faithfully all of my "M&Ms" to Gavin to further this glorious work.



Every true Christian knows no good thing has every come out of vile Lake Elsinore!


I believe that you are using this controversy to further YOUR OWN AMBITIONS in Gavin's Called Out Work, using the same dastardly methods as STANLEY RADER!

Taking advantage of Gavin as he works on Ambassador Watch "OVER 300DAYS A YEAR" and ages with mild senility.

I call for a "sit in" to STOP BAMBOO at Ambassdor Watch Headquarters by all TRUE GAVIN SUPPORTERS starting January 3rd,2008 the 29th anniversary of the sit in at Ambassador College. It should be noted that this is "Prophecy In Action" as 29 years equals EXACTLY 1.5263157 19 year prophetic time cycles!

I am also announcing a 30 minute fast to support this cause.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA



This is nothing but Diabolical mimicry!

While we hold no ill will towards Mr Lussenheide, we ask the membership of AW to join in prayer for his speedy repenentance and return to the flock.

The membership of AW is hereby warned that Lussenheide has been marked and that no AW member in good standing should have any contact with this man as he is in a spirit of rebellion....and we all all know who the father of rebelllion! God is not the author of confusion!

Don't be led astray brethren! You can lead a man to Rotarua but you can't wash the stink off him.

Kscribe said...

When resigning from a Church of Herbert entity, please use this form.

Anonymous said...

Tom the manhandler said..

I couldn't agree more! Anyone who is afraid to sign his or her name to the comments they post are cowards, and are behaving like those ministers who were afraid to openly disagree with Tkach senior. Such people can never be trusted!



Some of us leave such gigantic footprints on the Internet we find it best to be anonymous to prevent a flood hateful email to private email boxes.

At least here, you gotta say it in the open where everyone can see it.

Plus it also helps us maintain our sources confidentiality. I usually post under a psuedonym but thought I'd do anonymous this time just to irritate you.

Kscribe said...

The following is a paid advertisement
for Church of God Industries:

Greeting's Brethren,

As you may be unaware, the one church of God enterprise has been
accomplished already. C.O.G. Industries has been in business for some time
now. As President and Founder, my goal is a one world Church of God
enterprise! Foreign investors see the possibilities of a great and mighty,
not the least I may add, profitable church financial structure that is in a progressive expansion. By visiting the link I will provide, you will see the
FINANCIAL GROWTH that is EXPLODING! We are currently accepting applications
from Ministers within the Armstrong movement, as they are the only ones qualified to grow and preach the word of God. I may add that we at C.O.G. INDUSTRIES are simply a governing body that the various Churches of God pay dues to. These payments allow us to provide a valuable service!

If you can read my heathen friends you will see that we at C.O.G. Industries run the
church as Mr. Armstrong would! MY ADVICE TO THOSE SEEKING A TRUE CHURCH OF GOD, AND THE TRUE SOLUTIONS TO LIFE'S PROBLEMS, MAY FIND THAT THE TRUTH'S SPOKEN FROM GODS CHURCH ARE IMPECCABLE!!!
May I remind you my brethren that this is a WORK OF GOD AND NOT A MAN!
Now consider these facts:

WHY are only the very few -- women as well as men -- successful in life?

Just what is success?

Here is the surprising answer to life's most difficult problem, proving that
NO HUMAN NEED EVER BECOME A FAILURE!

All who have succeeded have followed these seven laws!

The only WAY to success is a copyrighted formula being sold for a price.
You can buy it! The price is your CHURCHES DUES and applying the seven
existing laws of SUCCESS!

DID IT EVER occur to that there might be a reason why so many
CHURCHES OF GOD fail?

IS YOUR CHURCH one who is wrestling with the problem of "making ends meet"?
Nearly all are. This problem need not mean failure --yet it often leads to
it.

It is a fact that the vast majority does wind up failing. Yet none need fail!

Take a look at all the facts.... then weep!

Rev. Kscribe
C.O.G. Industries
Founder & President.

*Proof read by my kat.

Anonymous said...

Sermon Transcript 1/1/08

By Elder Paul R.; Taped in his basement before a live audience (family and pets).

"...and furthermore, Mr. Lussenhide has assured me that all legal matters have been settled and that we can rent the crime scene, I mean the house where the crime took place, as HQ for this New Work that God is Working Through Mr. Lussenhide. *sips water* Now, this being the first sermon given in the LCOG, I want to adress the recent tragedy that all of us have tearfully been going through. That being the sundering of God's People. Satan loves division, doesn't he brethren? And he loves to attack God's True People. As you would expect, Mr. Lussenhide is Satan's most important target and let me tell you that I have seen some of the most FILTHY LIES AND ATTACKS on the reputation of Mr. Lussenhide on the so-called "internet." As most of you know, I do not spend my time dawdling on the internet. Lot of chaos on the internet. Lot of chaotic ideas floating around and we have to shield our minds against such ideas. But, it is a tool that God is Working Through, so I find myself rather distastefully having to look at some of these "web sites." Most of you could not mentally handle, like I can, some of the PEEVERSE FILTH AND TRASH HEAPED ON Mr. Lussenhide. Most of it, not all, but most, coming from our previous association. Some aren't satisfied with destroying God's Work and driving out His People. No, some, and I won't name names, have to PURSUE God's People after they have DRIVEN THEM OUT! Like the Egytians pursuing the Israelites. Mr. Lussenhide is a type of Moses you see; well, most of you don't understand that yet but you will if you listen. Mr. Lussenhide went before the seat of Mr. Gavin and said, "LET MY PEOPLE GO!" mr. Gavin didn' listen, his heart was hardened, and you know the rest. *sips water* But now the minions of Mr. Gavin, so-called "ministers" of God, just like the generals of Egypt, just won't stop at that brethren, no they have to pursue and mangle. Brethren, even I have come under attack. Many of you know a certain minister of the AW, his initials are "D. D.," uh, who was once a beloved co-worker in the Work, is now, uh, flinging this FILTH brethren, at me..wanting to get at Mr. Lussenhide but I am taking the bullet so to speak, serving as Moses personal guard, if you will. On one website Mr. D. says, and I quote:

"See the feet of your Lussmeister..well your stinky feet shall in likemanner be stinky."

*silence* Brethren....*sighs*...words just cannot describe the venom, the diabolical hatred that these people have for the Servants of the Living God. It saddens me. I once shared a bunkbed with Mr. D. at AW Camp back in 2000. Satan can take a loved one, a person you know inside and out, and pee-vert that person until you can't even recoginize them through all the satanic garbage in their minds and spewing out of their orifices, uh, and such. Mr. D. also says:

"I think we can work thiS out. Wa$ there any praticular favor the AW COG could do for you to change your mind$"

Many of you cannot read the sarcasm in this statement brethren, having not studied the human condition like I have, so I will tell you that the implication is that they can buy me with uh, money and the like. Let me state something here, and I am sure Mr. Lussenhide would agree with me. THIS WORK CANNOT BE BOUGHT! *feedback and pounding*
YOU CANNOT BUY THE POWER OF THE LIVING GOD WITH FILTHY LUCRE AND ANYONE WHO TRIES TO BRIBE A SERVANT OF GOD WITH FILTHY JUDAS MONEY IS GOING TO BURN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!
*dog whimpers in background*

I am sorry about that...is the tape still running? I get emotional and riled up. Needless to say brethren, Mr. D. has been uncovered. Yes, exposed. It turns out that he works at some kind of "massage parlor" or something, I wouldn't know about things of that nature. I don't know if there is drugs being taken there, or rock and roll, but it just goes to show the satanic corruption in our previous association. Thank God! Thank God that He used Mr. Lussenhide to bring us out! An EXODUS OUT OF BABYLON, AN EXIT OUT OF.....*tape ends*

Bob said...

Dear Gavin,

I earnestly plead with you, o grate one, to thoughtfully reconsider your disfellowshipping of our loyal brother Lussenheide. There has been an unfortunate misunderstanding about the missing M&Ms tithes.

Consider this: Brother Luss lives in California, a warm place. When he mails his tithes to you, they have to cross the equator, an even warmer place. Just like the tithes in so many cogs, those M&Ms just melted away, never to be seen again. So you see, brother Luss has been faithful to the end. The missing M&Ms are beyond his control. Please forgive him and reinstate him to the fold.

In the spirit of reconciliation, I beg of you.

Brother Bob E.

VonHowitzer said...

Hey KScribe!

Can I buy a 50% interest in the COG Enterprise? I'm willing to go as high as %1.50 US.

KMS

Sidebar to Gavin: Please don't banish Lussenheide to Vegas. It'll ruin the reputation of the city.

SmilinJackSprat said...

Cowards who refuse to sign their names to their writings: Moses (a third person witness attests to "this Torah" being written by Moses in Dt. 31, but there is no byline). A similar witness attests to Joshua's authorship of "these words" at the end of Joshua. Nor are there bylines for Judges, Ruth, Samuel or Kings. Ezra and Nehemia speak in the first person, but a third person witnesses Mordechai as the author of Esther. A story teller quotes Job speaking in the 1st person, but there is no byline. Finally, we reach the Psalms which provide several bylines: David, Moses, Sons of Korah, Asaph. Solomon takes responsibility for Proverbs, and indirectly for Ecclesiastes. Song of Songs is Solomon's. Thus far, bylines seem to emerge, including that of Moses, in the days of King David. But I'd not consider their predecessors cowards for leaving their signatures off works attributed to them.

Isaiah, Jeremiah & Ezekiel identify themselves. Daniel speaks in the first person, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Nahum, Habbakuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah are all identified -- but Malachi is a pen name; it simply means "my messenger," and cannot be pinned on anyone specifically. A targum adds "whose name is Ezra the Scribe," but who can say for sure? Perhaps the prophet known as Malachi thought it best to stay out of the limelight for the sake of his prophecy. Dare we call him a coward?

Who wrote the books attributed to Matthew, Mark and John? No one knows, except to say that the books almost certainly were not written by anyone with the names assigned to the books. Acts and Luke are written anonymously, but early tradition attributes both to Luke the physician. Neither book has a byline.

The Pauline epistles are boldly signed, Hebrews is anonymous, James, a descendant of King David, identifies himself forthrightly, as does Peter.

We don't know who wrote either the gospel or epistles of John -- and Revelation, which bears the byline of John, is so vastly different in style from the gospel of John, that its authorship must be considered as unknown as that of the gospel. The language is Greek, but far from elegant as that of the gospel; its syntax is strongly Aramaic, quite unlike that of the gospel. For Revelation the byline is no help at all.

So how do we explain all these neglected or arbitrary Bible bylines if cowardice is the only reason why an author might hide behind a pseudonym (Malachi) or leave his or her name off entirely?

I suggest that cowardice might be a motive on occasion, but by no means is it the only possible motivation, whether in this blog or in the Good Book itself.

Anonymous said...

Dennis,

Your last message inspires me to excerpt another portion of my unpublished essay, "My Worldwide Church of God Reflections - 1972 in Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?" here on the Ambassador Watch website. Besides, I have to help make one of Self Righteous Tom's 2008 predictions to come true:

What’s it all About, Alfie?

So, what was it all for? Certainly, the generation receiving Armstrong’s 1940s and 1950s end time warning messages is dying off very quickly. The generation receiving
Armstrong’s 1960s and 1970s end time warning messages is aging fast. And, the generation receiving Armstrong’s 1980s end time warning message is maturing. But, we were told this generation would NOT pass!

I have to conclude that it was all a waste – that Armstrong’s “Work of God” was the work of man - irrelevant to the real world and wasted peoples’ time and financial resources. While Armstrong was predicting that “time was very short” and the “end of world” is immanent, “time” actually ignored Armstrong and his 19 year time cycles, and marched right past many people caught in the church without any respect for Armstrong’s end time biblical prophecies. It’s as if church members were on one train, and reality, the rest of life and the real world was another train!

In my Sabbath Service notes, I found notes from Gerald Waterhouse sermons (4 hours long, no doubt) and other ministers’ sermons detailing now useless and meaningless dribble. For example, did you know “Waterhouse” means: “go Water the House of God and give it nourishment”? Nice words to re-enforce the Church’s grip on peoples’ lives and wallets, but completely useless words 30 years later.

What about the cornerstones of Armstrong’s “fear religion” business? What about the many hours of broadcasts and tens of millions of dollars spent on the Church’s massive media reach to warn the world? What about all those glossy Plain Truth magazines published monthly to millions of readers? What was it all for now that the people who heard the broadcasts and read the magazines 30 years ago are now dying off? Armstrong is now a long distance memory in peoples’ minds for those who heard him and remain alive.

What about Ambassador College? What about all the graduates over the years who now have a worthless degree (I’m sorry, but a degree from a defunct college is worthless on a resume). Ambassador alumni don’t even have a campus to re-visit the memories of their youthful college years. Were we so immersed in Armstrongism that we completely missed the conflicting statements of “building colleges” while at the same time hearing Armstrong predicting “time is very short”? If Armstrong really believed his own words, wouldn’t it have made more sense to spend the extorted member money on a massive final warning blitz right before the 1972 German attack - instead of spending tens of millions of dollars on college buildings, campuses, and college operations?

Certainly, other religions have established colleges. The Seventh Day Adventists have long standing educational institutions in Andrews University and Columbia Union College. I received my Masters degree from a private Midwest institution originally founded by the Church of Christ in 1881 – Drake University. Was Herbert Armstrong so selfish that he didn’t even think about an endowment for “God’s college” so it would live on in perpetuity? Apparently, he was!

Herbert Armstrong repelled as many people away from God and religion as he may have lead to God. Personally, I have no desire to attend any church or become involved in any organized religion. The Worldwide Church experience made me very disillusioned about God and religion. My whole concept of God is some being that is going to punish us for being human by causing Germans to attack America in 1972.

End of Excerpt

Richard

Anonymous said...

Mr. Lussenheide

I am sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way, though that is not a complaint I often hear.

I have sent a 25 lb sack of M&M's to Apostle Rumney in your name. I believe this will go a long way in restoring your previous status if it is the will of the Deity and you wash your stinky feet.

Gollum of SenditIn

Thomas Munson said...

That's it!!! I am with-holding my m&m's from any headquarters until I can personally sort this out. If I accumulate enough m&m's I may even just give them to the hungry I see on the street!

Bamboo_bends said...

Scene: A chalky rented high school school cafeteria/auditorium somewhere in mid America.

A well fed, water retaining, bulk of a man with bryclreem hair is introduced as the main speaker for the services. He looks like 1948 incarnate. He approaches the stage like a lion surveying his pride....

The crowd settles down, sensing a tense day ahead...


Ahachemmmm....(sips water)
Thanks you Mrs. Hornsby for that wonderful rendition of "There is a Bomb in Gilead"....how true that is these days in middle east, one can't go anywhere without some Islamic terrorist blowing up a bus or something....

Brethren, through our contacts we received the following sad news about brother Lussenheide.......
now many of you know Mr Lussenheide, and some of you may even think he rubbed you the right way! Do not be deceived! A deceived person doesn't know he's deceived! Unless I tell him he's deceived!

The minister ruffles some sheets of paper, the microphone squeals for a moment in a ear splitting bit of feed back in the PA system.

He opens folded piece of paper titled "MALNET" letter sent VIA AOL....(aka the Internets)....he begins reading.....


Most of you could not mentally handle, like I can, some of the PEEVERSE FILTH AND TRASH HEAPED ON Mr. Lussenhide. Most of it, not all, but most, coming from our previous association.


he stops, surveys the congregation, his eye glasses dropping to the end of his nose....in a deep south Texas accent he begins to speak...

Brethren, regardless what you hear about Mr Lussenheide, I can assure you that by his fruits he proves he never was a true FILTHADELPHIAN!

You know how Mr Gavin took us out of the SARDINE Era, a dead church brethren!

Those who remain true to the FILTHADELPHIAN church will be protected in the end times to come!

God will hold you accountable for where you send your M&Ms! Do not be deceived!

Thomas Munson said...

Memo from Headquarters:

There has been an abrupt halt in your shipment of M&M's to our office here in NZ, home of the last remnant of Hobbits. This has us somewhat concerned. Do not continue your errant ways of handing your M&M's to random needy people on the streets. They are needed here.

We have tried to keep our secret as long as possible, but the time to reveal to the members the urgency of the moment has arrived.

You see, we have assisted the last surviving Hobbits in the past and now must take care of all of their needs completely. We handed out M&M's to them thinking it was cute how much they loved them. Now we realize that they are addicted to M&M's!

We have even created an M&M based economy for them, with the brown ones worth the least and the blue ones worth a hundred brown.

In exchange, they grow us their peculiar "shire weed" which we sell to the heathen, to fund the work with Euros.

Remain faithful and keep sending those M&M's!!!

DennisDiehl said...

Children, children, come let us reason together and not splinter and sliver as some men count slivering and splintering. We can afford no Shits and Splisms in God's Holy AW Congregation. (OK, well I can think of one shit, but in general we are splism free and shitless.)

All the good splinter names are gone and we would only be known as AW-Wrong and AW-Right at best.

Sadly, and I deem this possible, Robert Thiel would have more hay to make of our demise and back munching. It only makes him more right in his own eyes and we must prevent this at all cost.

Let us bravely go where no group has ever gone before! Back in harmony and peace fulfilling our work here on earth before time is short again, times, time and half a time , 3-5 years, by 2012 Tops.

Let us all hold up our hands and get this work done! God knows we are not yet ready and has given us more time than ever. Let us use it wisely so we can go in and go out and find pasture.

I'm calling for a special M&M offering. Give as you are able, good measure, but no pressing down...ewwwwww. And see if the windows of heaven do not open and give you back more M&M's than you can possible imagine!

Give to get brethren. Send it in!

Pastard General
Dennis C Diehl
SC License 1889

Tom Mahon said...

Richard said:

>>>Your last message inspires me to excerpt another portion of my unpublished essay,...<<<

Oh no, not again! Haven't you got any new ideas? Apart from being bored rigid, I am now beginning to feel very nauseous.

Tom Mahon said...

SmilinJackSprat said...

>>>Cowards who refuse to sign their names to their writings: Moses (a third person witness attests to "this Torah" being written by Moses in Dt. 31, but there is no byline)....<<<

Who is going to attest for the seven paragraphs you have written, trying to justify your anonymity? Perhaps you could ask a member of your family to attest that you wrote them.

Tom Mahon said...

>>>Plus it also helps us maintain our sources confidentiality. I usually post under a psuedonym but thought I'd do anonymous this time just to irritate you.<<<

I suppose as you are a member of the CIA you have to be careful! When you retire, perhaps, you will deign to let us know who are, or should that be were?

Tom Mahon said...

Pastard General
Dennis C Diehl
SC License 1889

So you didn't rid yourself of everything, after all!!

Anonymous said...

Pastard General Diehl,

Don't forget my favorite Church corporate name is still available. Better get it before someone else does.

International Church of God, Garner Ted Armstrong Church Jet Stewardess and Masseuse United, a Worldwide Intercontinental Community (ICOGGTACJSMUWIC)

Did I forget to mention this Church, with a name this, would probably have a global reach? Add the Global reach part in as a subtitle to the corporate name, and you have all the best practices of Armstrongism embodied in your new corporate name.

Dennis, I am giving this corporate name to you. This is your big chance. I'm sure the tithes and offerings will come rolling in with a name like this. You will get your retirement fund back in no time that that little Judas Joey Tkach took from you.

You could play the GTA masseuse videotape for your first Church social movie night.

Richard

Jordan Potter said...

"German Fascism is Conquering Kosovo"?? What is this, breaking news from April 1941?

Jordan Potter said...

Smilingjack said: Who wrote the books attributed to Matthew, Mark and John? No one knows, except to say that the books almost certainly were not written by anyone with the names assigned to the books.

Just a few decades after the four Gospels were written, the belief was universal in Christianity that they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The tradition is so early that it is about as historically reliable as any fact of ancient history can be, and there was never any doubt expressed among Christians about their authorship, nor any rival claims of authorship. It's not that no one knows who wrote the Gospels, but that many don't agree with what ancient history tells us about their authorship.

By the way, Julius Caesar didn't sign his name to his De Bello Gallico, but nobody argues that he didn't write it, even though he never refers to himself in the first person.

DennisDiehl said...

Jordan Potter said...
"German Fascism is Conquering Kosovo"?? What is this, breaking news from April 1941?

Uh..tears in my eyes laughing. I thought I was the only one to wonder the same thing!

DennisDiehl said...

Trumpet Weakly? I thought PCG was supposed to cry aloud, lift of their voices and be obvious?

DennisDiehl said...

I know we are not used to mentally doing this but we have to remember that the gospel stories which brought Paul's cosmic Jesus down to earth and put him in the recent past before Paul, were all written AFTER Paul had lived, written and died. Paul's Jesus was Cosmic and in vision, not much of a figure in the flesh he knew anything about or ever met.

Paul knew NOTHING of the Gospel stories that came later. It's why he doesn't quote Jesus or use Jesus teachings to back his own when it would have been to his distinct advantage to do so.

Only AFTER Paul had written all of his Cosmic Jesus doctrines and Epistles did the story get literalized in the Gospels and then in contradictory and clumsy ways.

One has to ask how Paul, who was supposedly converted a mere five years after the crucifixion could possibly know the deep meaning of the New Covenant Jesus so soon, and so exclusively, and the Gospel writers later, did not.

Read your NT with Paul and his real or imagined writings FIRST, and then the Gospels and see the difference it makes in perspective. First the Cosmic Pauline Christ...THEN the Jesus come down to earth baby (Matthew/Luke but not Mark or John) and teacher.

It's all quite fascinating, but we get used to reading it reversed from what really happened.

Anonymous said...

"I know we are not used to mentally doing this but we have to remember that the gospel stories which brought Paul's cosmic Jesus down to earth and put him in the recent past before Paul, were all written AFTER Paul had lived, written and died. Paul's Jesus was Cosmic and in vision, not much of a figure in the flesh he knew anything about or ever met."

Paul never existed. He never lived. There are no secular historical references to Paul until mid second century. In fact there are no credible Christian historical references to Paul until mid second century.

Paul is a foil; he was created to change Jesus' teachings and to incorporate traditions from Roman mystery religions.

"The result, according to Loman, is clear: the existence of Pauline Epistles in the first and even towards the beginning of the second century cannot be proven beyond question. Even the Catholic theologian Justin in the middle of the second century mentions no Epistles by Paul. Thus the heretic Marcion remains (after deducting Clement's first Letter and the seven Letters by Ignatius, which Loman—with the majority of scholars in his day—regarded as falsifications from the middle of the second century) as the first and most important witness for the existence of Pauline Epistles. On the basis of this finding Loman deemed the presumption acceptable that the Pauline Epistles could have flowed to the Catholic side from heretical (Marcionite?) circles."

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/detering.html

DennisDiehl said...

Annon said:

"The implied theological level of the congregations of the Pauline Epistles assumes a longer period of incubation and could not possibly have been arrived at within two decades."

Good observations

I agree. That's what I meant by Paul's "sophisticated theology" arising so quickly out of thin air seemingly, or at least in his head only.

And I'm Dutch....soooooooooo :)

DennisDiehl said...

The "so and so never lived" theme is a difficult step to take and not just with Paul, but one that seems much more possible than I ever thought.

We tend to scoff at the antics of pagan godmen, but then ours really happened...really. The fact that already in 1 John "the Church" is being warned about those who say Jesus never came in the flesh, seems astounding so soon after "well of course he did."

Anonymous said...

There is a Christmas carol that is applicable to PCG.

"God Rest You Gerry Mentalmen".


Jorgheinz

DennisDiehl said...

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/jhcbody.html

Thanks Annon: That was a very interesting article from this site and I will study more on Marcion and Paul themes.

Nothing really is a simple as we all have been taught by the literalist church.

Corky said...

Jesus and Paul did exist in secular history, just not by those names. Jesus was a personification of the cosmic Christ from Alexandria Egypt based on the life of Judas of Galilee. Paul of Tarsus was really Apollonius of Tyana.

Jesus, in the gospels had 3-5 thousand followers. There was only one Jew who had that many followers in the early part of the first century - Judas of Galilee and his religion was considered as a fourth sect of Judaism by Josephus.

In other words, the whole story is made up from the god/man Horus and the teachings of Judas of Galilee and made to relate to Mithra by Apollonius of Tyana.

DennisDiehl said...

An open mind will have to admit that the God of the Bible was not so good at communicating the one true way to be and the one true things to believe since, for 2000 years, an entire Theo-industy has arisen to try to explain it or kill each other trying. In love of course.

Many of the early church fathers were little different than the goofballs we see in religion today that just know how it all is.

They had their agendas, egotism, quirks and secret lives just like everyone else.

The Second, Third and Fourth Century were not the highwater mark of the way it really was or is.

If we could see it all played back, we'd all die of shock and "you've got to be kidding."

Anonymous said...

Corky wrote

"Jesus and Paul did exist in secular history, just not by those names. Jesus was a personification of the cosmic Christ from Alexandria Egypt based on the life of Judas of Galilee. Paul of Tarsus was really Apollonius of Tyana."

Actually most scholars feel that Jesus was a genuine historical figure who lived at about the time assigned by most historians.

"There are passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Of the four, Josephus' writings, which document John the Baptist, James the Just, and possibly also Jesus, are of the most interest to scholars dealing with the historicity of Jesus (see below). Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions popular opinion about Christus, without historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. Pliny condemned Christians as easily-led fools."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

There are NO HISTORICAL references to Paul. Since "Paul" is actually the one who created modern Christianity, you would expect a contemporary historian like Josephus to mention him. But Josephus only mentions Jesus, James (Jesus brother), and John the Baptist.

There may well have been a genuine historical figure who worked against James, the leader of the movement in Jerusalem. The same individual or an entirely different person may also apposed Peter in Antioch.

James lead the Jesus movement in Jerusalem and Peter lead the movement in Antioch. Peter was actually the "bishop" of Antioch during the years "Paul" was supposed to have been in Antioch.

The stories in the book of Acts are almost a complete fabrication.

The work of the "Dutch Radicals" is extremely valuable in this regard.

DennisDiehl said...

Dear Refreshing Anonymous

Email me, it's in the profile. Let's chat. I won't deanonymous you!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jared Olar said...

The fact that already in 1 John "the Church" is being warned about those who say Jesus never came in the flesh, seems astounding so soon after "well of course he did."

What would be so unlikely about people denying or disbelieving the doctrine of the Incarnation in the first century A.D.? The Gospels present a Jesus who claims co-equality with God, a claim that gets Him crucified by those who did not believe that He, a man, could be God. If the original people to hear the message of the Incarnation in the 30s A.D. didn't believe it, what would be surprising about other people in the last few decades of the first century not believing it either?

As for the claim that Jesus had a few thousand disciples, just like Judas the Galilaean, I'd like to see some evidence from the historical record to support that Jesus' disciples ever numbered that large prior to His resurrection.

There are NO HISTORICAL references to Paul.

Wrong. What you mean is that there are no extra-biblical historical references to St. Paul that are contemporary with him. There are, however, quite a lot of historical references to him, in his epistles (and even mainstream, non-traditional Bible scholars admit that at least some of his epistles are genuine), in Acts, in the Letter of St. Clement of Rome to the Corinthians (circa 90 A.D.), in St. Polycarp of Smyrna's Letter to the Philippians (circa 110 A.D.), and in the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch (also circa 110 A.D.). Claiming that those references to St. Paul are not historical is the mark of someone with no business talking about what is and isn't historical.

Oh yeah, I forgot, there aren't any authentic Christian historical documents from the first and second centuries -- how convenient for the skeptic that every single historical document of early Christianity was forged decades later, or even centuries later by Emperor Constantine during the Council of Nicaea to trick people into thinking orthodox Christianity didn't appear in the 300s A.D. fully-formed like Athena from Zeus' skull. It's all a conspiracy, you see, and Da Vinci hid the truth in his fresco of The Last Supper.

The stories in the book of Acts are almost a complete fabrication.

And we know that how?

One has to ask how Paul, who was supposedly converted a mere five years after the crucifixion could possibly know the deep meaning of the New Covenant Jesus so soon, and so exclusively, and the Gospel writers later, did not.

Where do the Gospel writers and St. Paul present contradictory pictures of Jesus?

Read your NT with Paul and his real or imagined writings FIRST, and then the Gospels and see the difference it makes in perspective. First the Cosmic Pauline Christ...THEN the Jesus come down to earth baby (Matthew/Luke but not Mark or John) and teacher.

Well, if St. Paul invented Christianity and the Gospels were written later, how is it that they failed to agree with St. Paul? You'd think it would be easy enough for the Gospel writers to invent a Jesus right in line with the Jesus presented by St. Paul. And it should have been really simply for later Christians to bowdlerise and rewrite their scriptures to remove all of these alleged contradictions and signs of manufacture, if these conspiracy theories are correct. After all, we know Marcion tried to rewrite the New Testament, so how come the Church didn't sit down and fix all of their scriptures, creating a neat, error-free package. Why did the Church decide to canonise and exalt all of these writings that contain some many glaring and unsolvable clashes and contradictions?

Could it be the conspiracy theory approach to early Christian history is complete nonsense?

DennisDiehl said...

It's not conspiracy theory. It just is. Paul lived, wrote and died before any gospel, not mentioned until the second century, was written. Paul makes no reference to them or Jesus life or teachings much if at all and the Gospels never heard of the Great Paul even though written after. I doubt either group knew of the other.

The Gospels were original anonymous with the names being attached at a later time.

They aren't much on being eyewitness as Matthew quotes
92% of Mark and Luke about 54%. That's cheating if you are an eyewitness, which none of them were.

Mark knows nothing of Jesus birth and the accounts of Matthew and Luke were additions along the way to promote certain unbelievable doctrines and Make Mary certainly look more with it than the Mary of Mark who comes to get Jesus and take him home to get over his insanity. Mark's Mary had a short memory fo the things she "kept and pondered in her heart" at his birth.

The NT Paul is a somewhat implausible character. It is curious that no Jewish rabbinic writings of the 1st or 2nd century so much as mention a renegade student of Gamaliel who, having studied under the master and vigorously enforced orthodoxy on behalf of the high priests, experienced a life-changing vision on an away mission. Not a word emerges from the rabbis about the star pupil who "went bad", a heretic who scrapped the prohibitions of the Sabbath, urged his followers to disregarded Judaism's irksome dietary regulations, and pronounced the Law and circumcision obsolete. Surely such a renegade could not have completely escaped the attention of the scribes?

How likely is it that Paul really studied under the Pharisaic superstar Gamaliel? Paul clearly had difficulty with the Hebrew language and all his scriptural references are taken from the Greek translation of Jewish scripture, the Septuagint.

Without showing it all, I think the Apostle Paul would, in reality, remind us of Dave Pack..and he should not take this as a compliment. Paul was full of himself. Called from the womb like Jesus and Jeremiah. A chief apostle who also said he was born last but really first, but last, but first really.

Paul told no such tale of the Damascus road tale as Luke told it, nor did he, by his own admission in Galatians run on down to be friends with Jerusalem bunch. That's Luke's attempt to make them all look like they got along, which they didn't.

On the other hand, while the setting of Paul is before the Gospels, they seem to have been "discovered" by Marcion in the middle of the Second Century, which may account for their cosmic gnostic Christ feel.

I don't know how it all fits. But I do know, to my satisfaction, that the story of the who, how and why of the NT is NOT what I was brought up to believe.

It's all a great study. I suppose not being bound by a church or belief system that frowns on getting out of the box, I feel no obligation to defend the stories as told nor not see what I do see is suspicious in the text.

What others believe is perfectly fine too. I only have to live with myself and enjoy the search and not fear some imagined punishment for asking "how can these things be?"

I apply the same principle a CIA client told me about his observations during his career, to the Bible.

"Dennis..nothing in this world is what you are being told.."

Kscribe said...

Richard,

While the 7th day people had a real college and real teachers just remember what Herbie was. A huckster.

The equivalent to Armstrong would be a business man that expected only to make short term profits. This business man has no future vision for his company. He wants what he desires NOW! Ok, now the Herbster was that business man. He stayed profitable until he croaked. In the meantime he had the attitude of "fu*k'em" as far as the blue ribbon tithe payers go. Herbie was like some cheap company with only the vision of making money now and then close shop. This is what pink and bulletin board stocks do. Give a press release touting the company and as the price rises, slowly sell off millions of shares. Like religion it is legalized theft.

Anonymous said...

"Wrong. What you mean is that there are no extra-biblical historical references to St. Paul that are contemporary with him."

Right, there are no contemporary historical references to Paul. He never existed.

"Paul" was not a Jew nor was he a Benjamite. He was a fake, a fraud. And the record in the Epistles and in Acts is a pack of lies. Please note the following from the

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S&search=paul

"The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157). Nor is there any indication in Paul's writings or arguments that he had received the rabbinical training ascribed to him by Christian writers, ancient and modern; least of all could he have acted or written as he did had he been, as is alleged (Acts xxii. 3), the disciple of Gamaliel I., the mild Hillelite. His quotations from Scripture, which are all taken, directly or from memory, from the Greek version, betray no familiarity with the original Hebrew text. The Hellenistic literature, such as the Book of Wisdom and other Apocrypha, as well as Philo (see Hausrath, "Neutestamentliche Zeitgeschichte," ii. 18-27; Siegfried, "Philo von Alexandria," 1875, pp. 304-310; Jowett, "Commentary on the Thessalonians and Galatians," i. 363-417), was the sole source for his eschatological and theological system. Notwithstanding the emphatic statement, in Phil. iii. 5, that he was "a Hebrew of the Hebrews"—a rather unusual term, which seems to refer to his nationalistic training and conduct (comp. Acts xxi. 40, xxii. 2), since his Jewish birth is stated in the preceding words "of the stock of Israel"—he was, if any of the Epistles that bear his name are really his, entirely a Hellenist in thought and sentiment. As such he was imbued with the notion that "the whole creation groaneth" for liberation from "the prison-house of the body," from this earthly existence, which, because of its pollution by sin and death, is intrinsically evil (Gal. i. 4; Rom. v. 12, vii. 23-24, viii. 22; I Cor. vii. 31; II Cor. v. 2, 4; comp. Philo, "De Allegoriis Legum," iii. 75; idem, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 17; idem, "De Ebrietate," § 26; and Wisdom ii.24). As a Hellenist, also, he distinguished between an earthly and a heavenly Adam (I Cor. xv. 45-49; comp. Philo, "De Allegoriis Legum," i. 12), and, accordingly, between the lower psychic. life and the higher spiritual life attained only by asceticism (Rom. xii. 1; I Cor. vii. 1-31, ix. 27, xv. 50; comp. Philo, "De Profugis," § 17; and elsewhere). His whole state of mind shows the influence of the theosophic or Gnostic lore of Alexandria, especially the Hermes literature recently brought to light by Reizenstein in his important work "Poimandres," 1904 (see Index, s. v. "Paulus," "Briefe des Paulus," and "Philo"); hence his strange belief in supernatural powers (Reizenstein, l.c. pp. 77, 287), in fatalism, in "speaking in tongues" (I Cor. xii.-xiv.; comp. Reizenstein, l.c. p. 58; Dieterich, "Abraxas," pp. 5 et seq.; Weinel, "Die Wirkungen des Geistes und der Geister," 1899, pp. 72 et seq.; I Cor. xv. 8; II Cor. xii. 1-6; Eph. iii. 3), and in mysteries or sacraments (Rom. xvi. 25; Col. i. 26, ii. 2, iv. 3; Eph. i. 9, iii. 4, vi. 19)—a term borrowed solely from heathen rites."

Anonymous said...

Kscribe,

Agreed! You are so correct in your observations.

From a business perspective, I was fascinated to read the salvage value of a "dead Apostle's lifetime written work" from a business organization that spun off so many other religious business ventures to be only worth $3 Million - the settlement value of the copyright lawsuit that I read about between PCG and WCG.

I also find it ironic in retrospect that this Church of God, Seventh Day parent of the WCG which I remember Armstrong labeling Sardis era and being dead, is actually much more alive today than any of the Armstrongite parent and derivative Churches.

But, the kicker is that the lifetime written work, the cornerstone of the entire Armstrongite religious faith, was only worth $3 Million in settlement. That is a statement in and of itself.

Richard

Corky said...

Religion is legalized theft. There is no doubt about it!

From time immemoral, priests have taken from the common people and made their living off them.

Just because someone thinks those were false religions and that their religion the true religion doesn't change that fact.

The sleep of the blissfully and willfully ignorant is without a concern in the world about the reality and the plight of the human race and that is the cause of the shape the world is in today.

Bamboo_bends said...

DennisDiehl said...

Trumpet Weakly? I thought PCG was supposed to cry aloud, lift of their voices and be obvious?



Maybe them Okies confused oblivious with the word obvious?

mel said...

I wonder if anyone while searching about all this got mad at someone who didn't exist for not existing.

"Huh? Ive been betrayed! HOW DARE YOU NOT EXIST!"

A kind of a strange knee-jerk reaction from a person who, psychologically, largely hasn't been able to let go of a belief system he'd come under the influence of.

Oops, I ended with a preposition.
I'll pay penance with my blue M&M rosary and 25 'Hail Herbies'.

SmilinJackSprat said...

Dennis Diehl wrote that Paul "pronounced the Law and circumcision obsolete."

I think the reality is that Paul lived when there was great division between Pharisaical factions, one insisting that the next life was open exclusively to Jews, and the other insisting the opposite. One group was forcing conversion to Judaism (circumcision) on Gentiles, and the other was aghast at that faction, which seemed to be teaching more from hatred of their Roman overlords than from Torah-based reason.

Paul fully supported the Jewish obligation to live within the whole Torah, while urging Gentiles to ignore those who would make them Jews. Jewishness is not a superior lifestyle; it is a Jewish lifestyle, a unique culture required of the family of Israel by virtue of their own free acceptance of the covenant proffered to them by God at Sinai. If this were not true, Paul would not have acknowledged that "I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law."

I am convinced that the New Testament we have today is vastly different from its original documents, but despite the damage it has suffered, a great deal of it still rings true, including much of what Paul says to Gentiles -- or so it seems to me.

Robert said...

>>>I am convinced that the New Testament we have today is vastly different from its original documents...

Smily Jack,

You are right in your assertion as the original NT was likely to be written either in Hebrew or Aramaic. They were later translated into Greek.

Matthew as we know is said to have been written in Hebrew (as concluded by some of early church fathers).

I suggest you pick up a copy of The Jewish Roots of Galatians by Hilary Le Cornu / Joseph Shulam.

www.netivyah.org.il/Store/Netivyah%20Store.htm

You may also find the book Galatians by Avi Ben Mordechai useful to restore the jewishness of Galatians with his commentary. He also produces a handy pocket guide with commentary on each verse in Galatians to take around you to answer those critics who think the book frees them from the law.

www.m7000.com/StudyBooks.htm

Another interesting book is The Hebrew Yeshua Vs The Greek Jesus.

www.hebrewyeshua.com

I hope this helps your studies!

Anonymous said...

Smilinjacksprat wrote

"Paul fully supported the Jewish obligation to live within the whole Torah, while urging Gentiles to ignore those who would make them Jews. Jewishness is not a superior lifestyle; it is a Jewish lifestyle, a unique culture required of the family of Israel by virtue of their own free acceptance of the covenant proffered to them by God at Sinai."

What we have in Paul's epistles is a cleansing of the original works by later Catholic editors who made them more acceptable to Orthodoxy.

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/detering.html

"In a further chapter Van Manen finally justifies his theses and in the end develops his theories about the probable origin of the Epistles as well as their age. He transplants them in their totality into the first half of the second century and seeks their origin in a Pauline School, in Paulinism, fencing the latter off from Marcionism as a one-sided further development of Paulinism. According to Van Manen, Paulinism developed alongside and in reaction/imitation to Petrinism until it flowed together with the latter into Catholicism. The historical Paul himself was, according to Van Manen, probably neither the initiator of the school of thought named for him, nor the author of epistles, but only performed the duty of "patron" of that school. Paulinism only used his name to legitimate itself, and wrote under his name "Epistles," i.e., various didactic writings formed into an entity in which it explained its views and defended them against Judaism. After an initial period of skepticism "Paul" was also accepted by the Catholics (whose position lay somewhere between Jewish Christians and Paulinists). His writings were finally (after being essentially rewritten) recognized as authoritative and canonized."

Tom Mahon said...

Robert said:

>>>You are right in your assertion as the original NT was likely to be written either in Hebrew or Aramaic. They were later translated into Greek.<<<

The word "likely" does not denote proof. In fact, it doesn't even indicate probability. it posits a supposition, without any supporting evidence.

Anonymous said...

Here is a primer on the actual "hard copy" that we have of the NT. These are the only actual papyri that we have! This is it. Generally they contain only bits-and-peaces of the text of the New Testament.

A complete NT is available only after 325 AD, after the Council of Nicea.

The earliest actual document we have is dated by scholars at about 200 AD. We have NOTHING prior to 200 AD.

The details can be found on

http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html

(AD)...200...250...........300....350...450

Matt..........P45............B......Sin.....A
Mark..........P45............B......Sin.....A
Luke..........P4,P45,P75...B......Sin.....A
John...P66...P45,P75.......B......Sin.....A
Acts...........P45............B......Sin.....A
Rm-Hb..P46..................B......Sin.....A
James........................P72,B..Sin.....A
Rev............P47...................Sin.....A

My point, there is no hard copy of any epistles prior to the beginning of the 3rd century. There is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

We have to "take the word" of the good church fathers that "Paul" really said those things.

Anonymous said...

Saint Tom correctly saith: "The word "likely" does not denote proof. In fact, it doesn't even indicate probability. it posits a supposition, without any supporting evidence."

Tom, I submit to you that this is exactly what herbie did for far too many years. He posited many a "prophecy", with no supporting evidence and voila, nothing came to pass with the exception of the fleecing of the flock.

SmilinJackSprat said...

Dear Robert and Anonymous, it appears I'm in your debt, what with all the references you've provided. I intend to read them all. Thank you!

Gavin said...

Robert said:

>>>You are right in your assertion as the original NT was likely to be written either in Hebrew or Aramaic. They were later translated into Greek.<<<

Sorry but this is nonsense. For a start, there is no "original New Testament." The NT is a fourth century collection of earlier documents, and the textual evidence indicates that all of them were written in Greek. The only contender for a Hebrew original I'm aware of was Matthew, but that idea has been thoroughly debunked. The NT books are a product of diaspora Judaism, which is why Old Testament citations are overwhelmingly from the Greek LXX, not the Hebrew.

SmilinJackSprat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SmilinJackSprat said...

According to Hugh Schonfield, of Passover Plot fame and citing several credible witnesses, there was a fifth gospel, now lost, but fragments still exist. This is not the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew but another publication, the "Gospel of the Hebrews," related primarily to Matthew, but shorter, and also to Luke. Jerome says he made Greek and Latin versions of it, which would suggest that its original might have been in Hebrew. Some few think it might be the Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned by Papias, according to Eusebius. Jerome also references it in the margins of his Latin Matthew.

Anonymous said...

Here is a very good introduction to New Testament textual criticism; titled appropriately "An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism"

http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/intro.html#MSList

It provides a listing of the major NT manuscripts. For example here is their description of P46

"P46. Chester Beatty Papyrus II. Papyrus of the Pauline Epistles (with assorted lacunae; missing the beginning of Romans and all of 2 Thessalonians; includes Hebrews, but probably never contained the Pastoral Epistles). Usually dated c. 200, although much earlier dates have been suggested. The text is rather free, especially in Romans, and contains very many singular readings. It stands closer to B than any other manuscript, however, and the two probably form their own text-type or sub-text-type."

enjoy...

Anonymous said...

OK, one more thing...

Here is some additional detail in P46

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46

There is also a photo of the papyrus.

"Papyrus 46 (also referred to as simply P46) is one of the oldest New Testament manuscripts known to exist, with its 'most probable [creation] date' between 175-225[1]. It was part of the Chester Beatty Papyri. According to the website Bible Research, it contains (in order) "the last eight chapters of Romans; all of Hebrews; virtually all of 1–2 Corinthians; all of Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians; and two chapters of 1 Thessalonians. All of the leaves have lost some lines at the bottom through deterioration."

Bamboo_bends said...

DennisDiehl said...

Nothing really is a simple as we all have been taught by the literalist church.



I take it you disagree with the idea that a proof of God's True church is the fact that it has A) God in the name, and B) The word Church in the name?

Was that a lame proof or what? HWA had to have had a really low opinion of our IQs.

mel said...

While catching up on an email account I hadn't caught up with lately, I see that the Arts & Entertainment channel had a program on or about 12/02/07, entitled Mind Control, which focused on former WCGer, Buffalo Bill Hawkins-turned-Yisrayl Hawkins, head of the cult known as House of Yahweh, out of Texas.

I looked at A&E's site, and only see the program as for sale on DVD now.

Interesting that they picked a group led by a former WCGer to highlight, while focusing on the subject of cult mind control.

Anyone catch that show? If so, please comment if you can.

SmilinJackSprat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert said...

>>>Sorry but this is nonsense... Testament."

Gavin,

The idea that the NT was translated from Hebrew into Greek is an idea which is supported by the Jerusalem Perspective (www.jerusalemperspective.com).

They write about the book, Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus by David Bivin:

"Why are some of the sayings of Jesus found in the Synoptic Gospels so difficult to understand. Bivin and Blizzard suggest that it is because the original gospel that formed the basis for the Synoptic Gospels was first communicated, not in Greek, but in the Hebrew Language. This means we are reading an English translation of a text that is itself a translation. Many of Jesus' sayings contain Hebrew idioms that are meaningless in either Greek or English. When the Greek text is translated back into Hebrew, Hebrew idioms appear that illuminate the teaching. A 47-page appendix discusses 12 passages that are examples of the scriptures that are commonly misinterpreted due to a lack of understanding Hebrew idioms."

To order a copy of the book go to www.shop.jerusalemperspective.com

Robert said...

There are also claims made by the Aramaic Peshitta website suggesting the original scrolls were written in Aramaic (www.aramaicpeshitta.com).

See their article, Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek?

www.aramaicpeshitta.com/WastheNewTestamentReallyWritteninGreek1c.pdf

Now if you think it is wrong, tell me the reasons. Let us at least prove all things!

Tom Mahon said...

Charlie said...

Saint Tom correctly saith: "The word "likely" does not denote proof. In fact, it doesn't even indicate probability. it posits a supposition, without any supporting evidence."

Charlie>>>Tom, I submit to you that this is exactly what herbie did for far too many years. He posited many a "prophecy", with no supporting evidence and voila, nothing came to pass with the exception of the fleecing of the flock.<<<

I don't agree. HWA's timing of some prophecies was obviously incorrect, especially his 1972 to 1975 time period, but his broad outline of the end time prophecies are being fulfilled as I write.

For example, his booklet, The Middle East In Prophecy, is a seminal work, which outlines the sweep of history from Roman times to the present day and beyond. Also, his prophecies about the breaking of American and UK power are currently being fulfilled, as both the US and UK try to save face, while retreating from the quagmire in Iraq. Or should that be a debacle?

His prophecies about the break down of the family unit, rampant corruption in politics and government and the breakup of the church are continuing to be fulfilled, as what is laughingly called "civilisation" collapses around us.

Gavin said...

Robert

Here's a conservative critique of Bivin, plenty of reasons!
link

SmilinJackSprat said...

I may have seen part of the documentary that highlighted House of Yaweh. We were travelling, it was late, wife asleep in the adjacent room, so the volume was down and I only gave it part of my attention.

I remember a long interview and a walk around the disheveled home, or former home, of a former member of the group. There was also an unsuccessful intervention by a family concerned about one of their own who had become immersed in the group. She seemed to appreciate their concern but held fast to what she had learned in HOY.

Their leader lives well, and is especially fond of Cadillacs -- so an unusually large percentage of the members also drive Cadillacs.

That's about all I remember. The show piqued my curiosity at first, but failed to explain, at least to my satisfaction, why anyone would join such a group.

Anonymous said...

Saint Tom explains on behalf of herbie: "I don't agree. HWA's timing of some prophecies was obviously incorrect, especially his 1972 to 1975 time period, but his broad outline of the end time prophecies are being fulfilled as I write."

Tom, I don't agree. There hasn't been peace in the middle east for any length of time since time began, nor do I imagine as long as religion dominates that region that there ever will be, therefore it doesn't take a profit to predict problems there. Same thing with the family situation. Society's pendulum swings both directions and the nuclear family will grow apart and then back together as it always has.

Tom, you also seem to conveniently forget the very many prophecies that herbie made with regard to *specific* countries and actual named persons that failed miserably. You can beat around the bush all you want but the basic tenant of those "holding fast" to armstrongism just keep moving the dates every 5-10 years when actual events fail to meet their predictions. That isn't faith, nor religion. It is dishonest at best and it harms people! Whether or not you can admit that it up to you.

Here is a prediction for you: In the unlikely event that Gavin's blog is still here in 10-15 years, I predict that the tribulation will not have come, the Boche will still not have enslaved Americans, and Muslims will still be trying to kill all the Jews and killing other innocent people around the world...and we will all be 10-15 years older.

DennisDiehl said...

Gavin said:

"A PDF of last week's Weekly is available for those with an iron constitution, a perverse sense of humor, or a world-view somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun."

You know, that's a key isn't it? Our worldview. In WCG and really any Evangelical or Fundamentalist mindset or Meme (mind virus), the world is scewed by the following:

Time is short

Jesus WILL return soon

The Bible is true

We just happen to live in the last days.

Worldnews is all in the Bible especially Matthew 24 and Revelations.

We are not them.

God loves his church and will protect it.

When we do our part, then the work will be finished and Jesus, who doesn't know what God has in mind, will return. (Can the Deity be considered omnicient when # 2 doesn't know what #1 has in mind?)

Lay up your treasure in heaven.

It is Satan's world and he is angry at time being short.

blah blah....

You know, humans can blow the planet all to hell and still Jesus will forget to return.

There are other mindsets on the planet to partake in.

God doesn't need money to speak clearly

Humans must take responsibility

We are hairless apes with consciousness

We are spirits experiencing reality in a limited way by means of a mere five sensed carbon based wetsuit.

It's all good and all works out.

The goal in life is to be authentic and yourself.

Evolution is incredible and we have come via Australipithecines-Homo Erectus-Homo Ergaster-Homo Neanderthalis-Homo Sapien.

Israel is not more significant a country or the Jews a people than those from Uganda or Uzbeckistan.

We are all a small conscious part of the same one benevolent thing.

It's all good and all works out nicely.

Karma rules and no one looses.

There is no hell and no eternal punishment at the hands of a petty god. Everyone wins in time.

Ben and Jerry's Icecream is incredibly delicious....

Just a thought

Happy Sabbath and mindset.

Anonymous said...

Tom Mahon said,

His prophecies about the break down of the family unit, rampant corruption in politics and government and the breakup of the church are continuing to be fulfilled, as what is laughingly called "civilisation" collapses around us.

Tom - so you do acknowledge or claim that HWA was a prophet. The next step is to establish what kind of prophet he was - one of God or a false one. We have 50 years of his writings to review to prove the case one way or another. After the failure of his long-standing prophecy that the church would flee in 1972 prior to Christ's return in 1975, HWA immediately declared that he was not a prophet - never had been one, that wasn't what God had called him to do.

But it doesn't matter at all does it, because HWA was God's apostle. He (HWA) said so.

Tom Mahon said...

>>>Tom - so you do acknowledge or claim that HWA was a prophet. The next step is to establish what kind of prophet he was - one of God or a false one.<<<

We don't need to review 50 years of his writing. All we have to do is ask ourselves, does God call people to follow false prophets? When we find the answer to this, we would know whether HWA was a false prophet or not.

Kscribe said...

Tom, see Herbie the false prophet in all his glory here

Anonymous said...

No, God does not call people to follow false prophets. Therefore, since HWA was a false prophet it follows that God did not call HWA nor did He call people to follow HWA.

Anonymous said...

"Clever Don"
Seems Gerry has nothing on Alton Billingsley. A very interesting ad is running on the main page of Charlotte Online. http://www.charlotteonline.us