Sunday, 20 January 2008

"We were zealots"

A former WCG kid makes good - in Bermuda.

Newly appointed Senator Thaao Dill (Progressive Labour Party) is known for hosting a radio show on HOTT 107.5, and is a convert to the Bahai Faith. But he "was raised under an incredibly strict religious regime - no birthday or Christmas celebrations, and certainly no Hallowe'en."
Any guesses which incredibly strict religious regime that might be?

The family belonged to the Worldwide Church of God, which literally put God front and centre above everything else. "I didn't have a birthday party until I was 13 and we didn't do Christmas," Mr. Dill said.

"We were zealots. We were taken out of school a week before Christmas or Hallowe'en so we didn't get contaminated by these pagan celebrations," he laughed. "As soon as the pumpkin placards came out, I'd be like, 'you know you are going to hell, right?'"
Read the article in the Bermuda Sun for an engaging portrait of a young politician who breaks the mold.

49 comments:

PG said...

Oh great! Now you have done it again! Thiel will now go on one of his rampages about how TRUE COG members would NEVER become part of the political process. He is an apostate in Theil's 'mind' and and even worse will be said of him because he is interested in Baha'i.

Mike said...

That guy is full of soup. No one left school a week before halloween or christmas.

Anonymous said...

What a genuinely inspiring story of human growth post-WCG. The Bahai conversion is interesting--a different worldview and some new rules to follow, but from my encounter with Bahais one of the more peaceful religions on earth. It is is also refreshing to see Thaoo Dill's passion for social justice as opposed to e.g. the viciousness of a Dart toward civilian casualties in Iraq, and the rest of the COG's publications and leaders' usual right-wing American exceptionalist jingoism. Thaoo Dill represents an example of the better angels at work.

Pat said...

I attended WWCG and we did not take our children out of school for a week before these holidays and we did not teach our children that others were going to hell for observing them. It was something we did not want to participate in and I would still raise my children the same way as I did in this regard. It is everyone's free choice. Evidently this young man has made his choice.

MahonT said...

Pat said...

>>>I attended WWCG and we did not take our children out of school for a week before these holidays and we did not teach our children that others were going to hell for observing them.<<<

I also attended WCG and neither I nor anyone I met took their children out of school during these holidays. On occasions, and depending on the circumstances, I kept my children at home during the school's Xmas celebrations. But this was never done without discussion with the teacher concerned.

This young man is typical of a number of young people who were brought up in the church, and have rebelled against the beliefs of their parents. He some how thinks that becoming a politician, ridiculing the way he was brought up and making headlines grabbing statements about WCG, as a positive sign of his advancement in learning. Well, it isn't!

He may not be described as "a dog returning to its own vomit," as he was brought up in the church, but as a dog eating the vomit of other dogs, while embracing a false religion! What folly!!

BC said...

Experiences of children in the WCG varied wildly depending upon what the parents believed derived from their distorted view of the world influenced by the nutty ideas of Herbert Armstrong with his false man made religion, so it is likely that Senator Dill is telling the truth, rather than being a liar as the slanderer claims -- the slanderer who apparently isn't learning a single thing worthwhile.

Tired Skeptic said...

What with Mr. Dill being a genius, teaching himself to read by the age of two and skipping ahead two grades in school, it is natural that he would eventually reject the teachings of the Worldwide Church of God, founded by a man who didn't get past eighth grade. He has always been curious about the world around him, a truth-seeker looking for the facts behind what is.

Most religions want to kill a person's curiosity early on. The ideal candidate for a cult such as the WCG original or the spit-offs is one curious enough to find some reason to join, but not curious enough to keep seeking the truth to find the fatal flaws of the cult they just entered. All cults are curiosity killers by nature: They must be, because an intelligent curious person isn't going to stay in a metaphysical morass of distorted perceptions. They will go on to seek the realities of the universe rather than slumping into the rut of doing laps in the same old moral cesspool established for the aggrandizement and enrichment of the founder of a cult all full of himself. Mr. Dill's curiosity takes him on an interesting journey, one rich in social context because it is joined with a sincere desire as an activist to seek social justice -- something that Armstrongists can never understand because they are forever trapped in the sickly sticky amber of hatred of all mankind, covered over with the pretense of wanting the Kingdom for everyone while secretly wanting everyone but themselves to burn in a Lake of Fire as vengeance to those who do not share their belief systems.

Mr. Dill is only interested in the Bahai Faith, not a convert. His journey is not yet a destination. It's clear he will continue to turn over every stone to see what's at the bottom of it and see what's underneath, and not settle for lies and deceptions of a mind controlling destructive hate vengeance filled cult, unlike those here who keep beating the dead horse of failed ideas, who hold no curiosity except for when their revenge on the rest of the world is going to take place, invoked by a vengeful hate-filled god, made in their own image as idolaters of man-made religion and their leaders.

Let the cultists prove they have something real, stop setting a terrible example and leave the godly alone, lest they come to some unfortunate but justified end.

At the same time, let them stand and wonder at the wondrous and merciful works of God, shown through those He chooses as a witness to the ungodly of His Goodness toward all and let them understand they are deficient morally, spiritually and ethically as wicked children of someone who only wants evil upon humanity.

pat said...

Mr. Armstrong taught much truth, some error, of course, since no one has ALL of it correct yet, but I appreciate the solid truths that he did teach.

BC said...

Just as we can all appreciate the solid truths of Scientology from L. Ron Hubbard.

Lussenheide said...

The culture of the WCG was anti intellectual and demeaning in the educational sense.

This is true in most collective communist economies, that squelch freedom, and practice collectivism. The WCG was a Stalinist collective, where all assets and personal empowerment were controlled by the church state. Freedom and information is always the greatest enemy of such systems.

It is why the internet is also a tremendous threat to such systems.

I remember being frowned upon for attending "worldly college", especially when I lived only 7 miles away from Pasadena AC. A common question asked of me by others , was whether I was "rejected by AC", which was funny because I never even applied! I was brand new to the church as a young 17 year old, coming in as the only member of my family ever in 1974.

I attended Pasadena for many years, HWA would rail against "worldly colleges" in sermons and against so called "intellectuals" as enemies to the church, and as those who had "bad influence" on his son GTA. I suspect that much of this was actually directed against Robert Kuhn, as well as others.

The WCG literlly had articles saying that certain professions would have little use in the "World Tommorow" such as Doctors, Lawyers, Acccountants and such, and thus members seldom aspired to achieve such positions. I guess being a diesel mechanic was GREAT for the KOG, but being a pharmacist was not.

I feel the entire ministry resented anyone who was actually swifter than they were, insecure with their unaccredited "degrees" from Ambassador, and their 6 months "ministerial training" before making life and death decisions for the "poor dumb members" while the ministers themselves were still a tender 27 year old.

I still believe in God, and the core distinctives of the Sabbatarian church, but not because of conformity, or "group think" but because of my own research and conclusions.

A lesson learned from an old proverb: A mind convinced against its will, is of the same opinion still.

God is not interested in coerced conformity. He is interested in voluntary choice, and free will expressed in relationship with him, in a loving synergy. I obey God because I love him, not because of external carnal,social or organizational guilt pressure.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Byker Bob said...

Mr. Dill is a very courageous individual, and I wish him well. If I ever did become successful and noteworthy enough to be interviewed, I would be too ashamed and embarrassed of my Armstrongite past to discuss it with the interviewer. Yet, much like some of the activist rape survivors, Mr. Dill has chosen to use the supreme negative in his life to help others.

BTW, I do not believe he is misrepresenting when he states that he was taken out of school a week prior to Christmas and halloween. The WCG attracted people who were horribly off balance, and it is quite possible that his parents were extremely compulsive with their Armstrongism. Wives and children were often severely beaten "in the name of Jesus Christ" while in Armstrongism, so is it really so unusual that one family would take the kids out of school prior to "pagan" holidays?

I learned one principle of evaluation from politics and star ratings. There are two factors which are looked upon when evaluating an individual's success. One is how many people rate that individual highly. The other is the negatives associated with that individual. A very popular person could be unelectable, or fail as a performing artist based on the negatives associated with him/her. I believe that while Armstrongism had some positives and was popular, ultimately it failed as a religion because of the horrendous plethora of negatives also associated with it. Using Jesus Christ as a benchmark for comparison, in Jesus' case, you only have good fruits, no negatives.

BB

pat said...

Lussenheide said...

"I still believe in God, and the core distinctives of the Sabbatarian church, but not because of conformity, or "group think" but because of my own research and conclusions.

A lesson learned from an old proverb: A mind convinced against its will, is of the same opinion still.

God is not interested in coerced conformity. He is interested in voluntary choice, and free will expressed in relationship with him, in a loving synergy. I obey God because I love him, not because of external carnal,social or organizational guilt pressure."

I commend him for these wonderful statements in his comment. What more needs to be said after that?!

Tired Skeptic said...

Armstrong taught much truth, some error, of course

Isn't that just like mixing a healthy dose of poison with fresh pure spring water?

Tired Skeptic said...

I commend him for these wonderful statements in his comment. What more needs to be said after that?!

You can be sure that Tom will have something.

Anonymous said...

"Just as we can all appreciate the solid truths of Scientology from L. Ron Hubbard."

And of course just as we appreciate the solid truths of Sunday keeping trinitarian Orthodox Christianity...

Tom Mahon said...

Lussenheide said...

>>>The culture of the WCG was anti intellectual and demeaning in the educational sense.<<<

Would you like to rewrite this, for it is nonsense! But if you think that it is a skeleton, would you care to put some flesh on it. In what way was WCG anti intellectual and demeaning?

>>>This is true in most collective communist economies, that squelch freedom, and practice collectivism.<<<

This is more nonsense! But I suppose you mean communism enslaves people, as opposed to democracy and capitalism, which offer the delusion of freedom.

Little do you know what true freedom really is. Jesus told the people of his day, "If you continue in my word, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." And they replied, as you would; "We have democracy, what greater freedom could we want?" As though Jesus was talking about the delusion political freedom. True freedom is liberation from the bondage of Satan, who goads people into becoming liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers , extortioners, homosexuals, lesbians, fornicators, child abuser, traitors, disobedient to parents, vain, arrogant, aggressive, spiteful and vengeful. Has democracy liberated you from these baneful, destructive vices?

>>>I still believe in God,<<<

No, a thousand times no, you don't! If you truly believe in God, you would not be hostile to his servant, Mr. Armstrong. Your stance is similar to someone saying, I believe in God, but I think the Apostle Paul was a charlatan. Actually, this is what Dennis has said. But, then, Dennis doesn't claim to be a Christian. Anyone that has left WCG screaming that Mr. Armstrong was a false prophet or charlatan is not a Christian!

Tom Mahon said...

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>At the same time, let them stand and wonder at the wondrous and merciful works of God, shown through those He chooses as a witness to the ungodly of His Goodness toward all and let them understand they are deficient morally, spiritually and ethically as wicked children of someone who only wants evil upon humanity.<<<

These are just more sentimental platitudes, taken from Joe junior's Evangelical Alliance scrapbook of religious claptrap!

If you are ever going to break out of your Tired Skeptic cocoon of religious mumbo jumbo, you need to rid yourself Joe junior's scrapbook of religious humbug.

Come on, have the courage to say who you are. Are you sure you are not Keith Stump or his clone?

Lussenheide said...

The name "Mahon" literally means "descended from a Bear".

I think the name applies nicely to you Tom. Shouldn't you be hibernating this time of year?

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Tom Mahon said...

Lussenheide said...

>>>The name "Mahon" literally means "descended from a Bear".<<<

You can't defend your ill conceived opinions of freedom and belief in God, so you were goaded to post more nonsense! It might have been better if you had erected the usual wall of silence.

Corky said...

Tom Mahon babbles on again with, "True freedom is liberation from the bondage of Satan, who goads people into becoming liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers , extortioners, homosexuals, lesbians, fornicators, child abuser, traitors, disobedient to parents, vain, arrogant, aggressive, spiteful and vengeful."

Little does he realize how close to a perfect portrait of Armstrong and the cult of Armstrongism he has just described.

Further on does Tom Mahon babbles about, "Anyone that has left WCG screaming that Mr. Armstrong was a false prophet or charlatan is not a Christian!"

Since those things are true, how can they be judged as not being Christians for not putting up with the sinfulness of Armstrongism?

Nothing sounds worse to me than the hypocrisy and spiteful arrogance of Tom Mahon - unless it would be the sound of someone puking his guts out.

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>I still believe in God,<<<

No, a thousand times no, you don't! If you truly believe in God, you would not be hostile to his servant, Mr. Armstrong.


Herbert Armstrong was quite obviously in the bonds of Satan the Devil -- or at least morally reprehensible and corrupt.

Bill, as do I, believe in the Sabbath and Holydays and keep them to honor God and Jesus Christ [making Tom guilty of the terrible sin of slandering, thus disqualifying him of being with God for all eternity], but not because of following Herbert Armstrong's horrible example. Bill, I and others here do believe in God, but that's no big deal: The demons, according to James, believe in God, just as Tom claims to, and given the behavior of Tom, it's not hard to believe he is demon possessed, if there be such a thing.

It is Tom Mahon, the doubting Big Bear, who does not believe in the One True God, period. He will not obey.

If God exists and if He cares, eventually, Tom will either be severely corrected or punished. I would lean to his being punished for he has not exhibited one shred of Christian love nor a caring, loving spirit, neither is he repentant. He has all the attributes described in II Timothy 3:1-9. The Apostle Paul has this to say at the end of the analysis of the proud, blasphemers, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded:

But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all

This idolater has raised Herbert Armstrong to be at the level of Moses, but Herbert Armstrong did not even keep the laws of which he taught. He had coffee and donuts on the Day of Atonement to keep up his strength. He was a false prophet. He was also the very picture of II Timothy 3:1-9. In Herbert Armstrong's case, judgment seems to be rendered and he has proceeded no further and his folly has been manifest to all.

Tom offers no proof whatsoever that Herbert Armstrong was God's servant, and, in fact, has impeached his own witness a number of times. Tom can't have it both ways, unless he's just another psychopath playing games.

The best part of this is that we've all here testified to Tom, advised him to repent and have now discharged our duties and have need of doing no more [although it's kind of fun, actually, to point out his idolatry, his lies, his deception and his ungodliness].

True freedom is liberation from the bondage of Satan, who goads people into becoming liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers , extortioners, homosexuals, lesbians, fornicators, child abuser, traitors, disobedient to parents, vain, arrogant, aggressive, spiteful and vengeful.

Tom is about 80% of all these things and therefore is not free, but in the bondage of Satan, if there is such a thing, or just plain afflicted with mental disorders like being a sociopath, obsessive compulsive disorder or intermittent rage disorder.

At least someone puking his guts out has a legitimate reason for doing so, unlike Tom's rubbish.

Judgment, if any, awaits.

May God speed that day.

Anonymous said...

"Bill, as do I, believe in the Sabbath and Holydays and keep them to honor God and Jesus Christ..."

Here here !!!

Some of us still do this because Jesus did it, and NOT because of HWA.

Tired Skeptic said...

These are just more sentimental platitudes, taken from Joe junior's Evangelical Alliance scrapbook of religious claptrap!

Clueless Tom doesn't seem to recognize someone paraphrasing Psalms.

For shame.

In Tom's view, anyone who quotes servants of God are of Satan the Devil, except of course, when they quote Herbert Armstrong. It's tragically apparent that Tom has never read or understood the Bible at all and is unaware of his incompetence.

But then, it's just just taken from David's Evangelical Alliance scrapbook of religious claptrap as opposed to panicking and flailing about when your rubbish is exposed for what it is.

Byker Bob said...

Jared can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the RCC, the criteria for establishing sainthood involves, among other things, the performance of at least two verified miracles. So, we see that the Catholic church values "the witness of God" when evaluating sainthood.

What criteria or "witness of God" are present regarding HWA? His prophecies, or interpretations thereof, have all failed. So, you can't use prophecy. So much for Elijah! His so-called "18 Restored Truths" are all easily debunkable by more knowledgeable theologians, so you can't consider him to be like a modern day lawgiver, or Moses type.

At the end of the day, the people who consider HWA to be God's apostle only "know" this because HWA told them it was so.

If someone wants to keep the OT sabbath and holydays physically, in addition to understanding the spiritual expansion of them, Paul says we shouldn't judge them for this. But, emphasizing HWA above Jesus Christ, and actually changing the gospel message, is the worst kind of blasphemous idolatry imaginable. The fact that HWA actually encouraged this through all of his literature is proof that he certainly was no apostle.

BB

Tired Skeptic said...

But, emphasizing HWA above Jesus Christ, and actually changing the gospel message, is the worst kind of blasphemous idolatry imaginable.

Byker Bob, with all due respect -- for I do honor your observations and judgments greatly -- there is another blasphemy that Tom made which is equally disturbing and it would be a tough call which is worse:

>>>At the same time, let them stand and wonder at the wondrous and merciful works of God, shown through those He chooses as a witness to the ungodly of His Goodness toward all and let them understand they are deficient morally, spiritually and ethically as wicked children of someone who only wants evil upon humanity.<<<

These are just more sentimental platitudes, taken from Joe junior's Evangelical Alliance scrapbook of religious claptrap!


By making this statement, Tom is saying that God is not not wondrous and merciful. He has made similar statements when confronted with declarations paraphrasing Psalms about God's Power and Goodness.

This is out and out insulting blasphemy against God and transcends in my mind the blasphemous idolatry of emphasizing Herbert Armstrong above Jesus Christ.

It may just be a judgment call. A final judgment call.

As for sainthood, it's clear that Tom is going for making Herbert Armstrong greater than Moses. I would point out that maybe Herbert Armstrong did fly over the Red Sea in his jet, but he certainly didn't part it. As for making water come out of a rock, Herbert Armstrong did manage to turn wine into sewage.

Steve said...

Anonymous said...
"Bill, as do I, believe in the Sabbath and Holydays and keep them to honor God and Jesus Christ..."

Here here !!!

Some of us still do this because Jesus did it, and NOT because of HWA.

MY COMMENT: Jesus still DOESN'T. He only did those things when the Old Covenant was still in affect...but no longer.

Questeruk said...

Steve said...

‘Some of us still do this because Jesus did it, and NOT because of HWA.
“MY COMMENT: Jesus still DOESN'T. He only did those things when the Old Covenant was still in affect...but no longer.”'

Fine Steve – Jesus is quoted as saying ‘if you will enter into life, keep the commandments’, and when asked which, said ‘do no murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honour your father and mother – love your neighbour as yourself’

Presumably these also are also things that Jesus only did when the Old Covenant was still in affect…. But no longer.

jcooper said...

Surely this cannot be Tom Mahon, the SouthEast regional Director of the WCG.

Tell me it isn't so...

John Cooper

MahonT said...

tired skeptic said:

>>>The best part of this is that we've all here testified to Tom, advised him to repent and have now discharged our duties and have need of doing no more...<<<

This is more humbug, but you still have one more thing to do. Break out of your cocoon of anonymity, and say who are? If you dare! What are afraid of?

BTW, you and Bill would have been completely ignorance of the Holy Days and the need to keep them if God had not revealed that knowledge to Mr. Armstrong.

furthermore, the bible is a two edged sword. So be careful how you use it, as it tends to inflict a fatal wound to arrogant novices who think they know how to use it. Remember, Tkach senior died a couple months after saying, "God is not finished with me yet." Little did he know!!

Lussenheide said...

Tom:

Do you mean I would not be keeping the Holy Days if it wasnt for GG Rupert of the Seventh Day Adventists, who also wrote for the COG 7th Days "Bible Advocate" (circa 1880 to 1920) and John Kiesz of the COG 7th Day who died in the 1990s and knew HWA back in his early ministry?

Both advocated the keeping of the Holy Days in the COG WELL BEFORE HWA ever came along.

Quote from Kiesz: " I was keeping the Feast of Tabernacles even before I met Brother Armstrong", source, In Transition, circa 1996.

Source for info on Rupert and Holy Days : http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/GG%20Rupert/GG%20Rupert%20slides.pdf See especially Page 9.

So although HWA claimed to "reinstitute" the Holy Days, this is a falsehood. He took the idea from already existing Sabbatarians of the era.

I owe the man nothing.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

"I obey God because I love him, not because of external carnal,social or organizational guilt pressure."

Don't forget being executed in a Lake O' Fire. Does that factor in?


Paul

brave anonymous poster said...

Lussenheide said...

"I still believe in God, and the core distinctives of the Sabbatarian church, but not because of conformity, or "group think" but because of my own research and conclusions.

A lesson learned from an old proverb: A mind convinced against its will, is of the same opinion still.

God is not interested in coerced conformity. He is interested in voluntary choice, and free will expressed in relationship with him, in a loving synergy. I obey God because I love him, not because of external carnal,social or organizational guilt pressure."



I couldn't have said it better myself....if everyone took that attitude we'd all be better off (ok, so it won't happen this time around, but, eventually)

Tired Skeptic said...

furthermore, the bible is a two edged sword. So be careful how you use it, as it tends to inflict a fatal wound to arrogant novices

That would be Tom. He is an ignorant novice. Doesn't even appear to have studied the Bible. Probably just reads Herbert Armstrong and stupidly thinks it's the same thing. Haven't seen anything inconsistent with that view.

Tom cannot even begin to match a man like Senator Thaao Dill. In fact, he doesn't seem to be much a match for anyone here: A man who obviously never knew God at all.

Anonymous said...

Besides, should we really be thankful to a man who taught us to observe the holydays wrongly, as if Jesus hadn't fulfilled them?

HWA even got Pentecost wrong for decades, mixed up Passover with the first holyday of the Days of Unleavened Bread, sent his followers to Texas to observe the F/T instead of to Jerusalem where God intended, and invented the Last Great Day so there would be 7 feasts or holy days, and so they would conform to "God's Plan" that Herbert invented.

What a guy!

Just Askin' said...

"descended from a bear"

Did it descend in the woods?

Just Askin'

Tom Mahon said...

Tired Skeptic said...

TOM>>>furthermore, the bible is a two edged sword. So be careful how you use it, as it tends to inflict a fatal wound to arrogant novices.<<<

TS>>>That would be Tom. He is an ignorant novice.<<

Haven't you got any ideas of your own? Every time I make point, you pinched it and apply it to me. Would it not be a better strategy for you to raise your comprehension and intellectual skills, rather than requesting other people reduce their, so that you can compete on an equal footing?

Tom Mahon said...

Lussenheide said...

Bill>>>Do you mean I would not be keeping the Holy Days if it wasnt for GG Rupert of the Seventh Day Adventists, who also wrote for the COG 7th Days "Bible Advocate" (circa 1880 to 1920) and John Kiesz of the COG 7th Day who died in the 1990s and knew HWA back in his early ministry?<<<

That is not what I said. I said: "BTW, you and Bill would have been completely ignorance of the Holy Days and the need to keep them if God had not revealed that knowledge to Mr. Armstrong."

Are you denying that you learned of the Holy Days from HWA? You may argue that he didn't properly understand them, and you now have a better understanding of their spiritual significance. But that is not my question or issue the under discussion.

Now it would demonstrate a break through in intellectual honesty if you could either stop ducking the question or digressing from the topic, to bring up some irrelevant point. But I am not holding my breath!

Tom Mahon said...

byker bob said:

>>>The WCG attracted people who were horribly off balance,<<<

Which is very evident from the nonsense posted here. But "off balance" is to put it mildly, I could think of some much more severe, appropriate terms to describe those who have repudiated what they once claimed to have proved.

Tired Skeptic said...

Would it not be a better strategy for you to raise your comprehension and intellectual skills, rather than requesting other people reduce their, so that you can compete on an equal footing?

Why would I want to dumb myself down to someone who is obviously inferior?

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>The WCG attracted people who were horribly off balance,<<<

Which is very evident from the nonsense posted here.


By Tom.

pat said...

Tom Mahon said...
byker bob said:

>>>'The WCG attracted people who were horribly off balance,'<<<

"Which is very evident from the nonsense posted here. But "off balance" is to put it mildly, I could think of some much more severe, appropriate terms to describe those who have repudiated what they once claimed to have proved."

Everyone is off balance. That is precisely why we need God's word. It is the only way to keep us on sure footing.
I hope no one brings up that we don't have to keep the holy days, commandments and tithing ... because they were only binding in the O.T. Some of it was alluded to earlier. That is not freedom. It is slavery.

Anonymous said...

Tom the Terrible proclaimeth: "True freedom is liberation from the bondage of Satan, who goads people into becoming liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers , extortioners, homosexuals, lesbians, fornicators, child abuser, traitors, disobedient to parents, vain, arrogant, aggressive, spiteful and vengeful. Has democracy liberated you from these baneful, destructive vices?"

Tom,

Here is a bubble buster for ye: The old WCG certainly had its share of these type of people. I have no reason to believe that all of the splits are any different, so where is the freedom from this sort of thing you speak of? I also notice you left self-righteous bigots and racists off of your list of freedoms...You might also find the last five sinful things in your list of freedoms reflected in your mirror. (I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on the others...But I remain dubious about the child abuse part...Your children should be protected from certain viewpoints you hold but that is up to you.

Robert said...

>>>derived from their distorted view of the world influenced by the nutty ideas of Herbert Armstrong with his false man made religion.

Now if you think HWA was more nutty than a fruit cake you should start studying the Talmud and Judaism. You had it easy under Armstrong! You didn't have to circumcise your sons, keep a rigid kosher environment in your kitchen with three sets of pots and pans, wear a kippah to school, or have your tassels showing for the world to see. And you didn't have to justify the texts in the Talmud that attribute blackness to the sin of Canaan!

Robert said...

Steve,

Quit misquoting Jesus. You said:

MY COMMENT: Jesus still DOESN'T. He only did those things when the Old Covenant was still in affect...but no longer.

Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17).

All is NOT fulfilled. Jesus has not returned and heaven and earth HAS NOT passed away.

You folks twist the scriptures to your own destruction.

Robert said...

>> I also notice you left self-righteous bigots and racists off of your list of freedoms...You might also find the last five sinful things in your list of freedoms reflected in your mirror.

Perhaps Charlie you ought to get outside of the USA and spend some time in South Africa. In a country where there are 65 murders a day where the grace of our Lord Jesus is literally a licence for hijacking, rape and murder. They certainly are living the freedom of Christ.

Is this the freedom that you want for all of us? If it is, you know what you can do with it. Bring on Armstrong anyday!

Steve said...

Questeruk said...
Steve said...

‘Some of us still do this because Jesus did it, and NOT because of HWA.

“MY COMMENT: Jesus still DOESN'T. He only did those things when the Old Covenant was still in affect...but no longer.”'

"Fine Steve – Jesus is quoted as saying ‘if you will enter into life, keep the commandments’, and when asked which, said ‘do no murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honour your father and mother – love your neighbour as yourself’ "

MY COMMENT: He also said that if you will enter into life, "Go and sell ALL that you have and give it to the poor, and come and follow me". Have you DONE THAT yet? Then, how are you any different than the rich young man that Jesus was talking to? Jesus never told the rich young man that he WASN'T keeping all of those Laws. He just ADDED something else. Even His own disciples were astonished at this comment, and said, "Who then can be saved?". Sabbath and "holydays" won't cut it. I know how much that CUTS you sabbatarians and "holyday" keepers. (Same old Armstrong mentality...pick and choose from the OT.)

"Presumably these also are also things that Jesus only did when the Old Covenant was still in affect…. But no longer."

MY COMMENT: Notice, Jesus didn't mention the sabbath and "holydays" here. You can bet your bottom dollar that the rich young Jew was keepin' em all of his life! Did Jesus praise him for it? Did Jesus EVER once mention that keeping the sabbath and "holydays" would be the sign to recognize who His true followers are? Jesus was also circumcised, but He never told His followers NOT to be. Jesus sacrificed animals, but He never told His followers NOT to. Jesus wore a tassle, but He never told His followers NOT to. Did Jesus tithe on His money? The common purse was used to buy those things they had need of for the feast, as well as to give to the poor. There was no category of "tithes" in the common purse. So, Jesus did NOT tithe...because He had no animals or crops. But, those of you who follow Armstrong's teaching believe that you are finding merit with God by "tithing". Anyhow, back to the subject. How strange that the Gentiles needed no instructions, warning, or encouragement as to the keeping of the sabbath. They certainly needed reproof and instruction on nearly every other important matter. Why is sabbath-breaking conspicuously absent from the list of sins? There is no evidence of any sabbath conflicts. How can you use the "argument from silence" scenario. That'e all us "Israelites" ever heard in Herbie's church. "Sabbath" and "holydays", "sabbath" and "holydays", "sabbath" and "holydays". Like a broken record.


Robert said...
"Steve,

Quit misquoting Jesus."

MY COMMENT: Robert, stop following Armstrong's twist of the Scriptures.



You said:

MY COMMENT: Jesus still DOESN'T. He only did those things when the Old Covenant was still in affect...but no longer.

Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17).

All is NOT fulfilled. Jesus has not returned and heaven and earth HAS NOT passed away.



MY COMMENT: Jesus has fulfilled the Law. The Greek word means that He is the end of the Law, "be ended, fall, be finished". He is our rest...not some day. Regarding the sabbath, when Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath, He didn't say, "Hey, I'm not breaking the sabbath.". He said, "My Father is always working, and I work.(ON THE SABBATH)."

You folks twist the scriptures to your own destruction.

MY COMMENT: You folks think that YOUR works will save you...to your own destruction.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!

Steve said...

Ooops! I'm sorry. There WAS a conflict. To the Galations(Gentiles), Paul said, "You observe days, moons, seasons, and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored to you in vain...Tell me, you who desire to be under the Law." What Law? Some pagan Law? Nooo! Paul was talking about the "nomos", equivalent to the Hebrew, "torah".

To the Colossians, Paul said, "Then do not let anyone judge you...(who were the ones judging them? Read the context in regard to demanding the Gentiles to b e circumcised)...in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body of Christ(not the body of Jews)." Have you ever tried to step on a shadow, or chase a shadow? There's nothing there. Christ is the substance...the reality.

Stingerski said...

Robert said:

. . . didn't have to circumcise your sons, keep a rigid kosher environment in your kitchen with three sets of pots and pans, wear a kippah to school, or have your tassels showing for the world to see.

Well Robert, stupid is -- stupid does.

If certain sects of Jews want to knock themselves out with such pointless "morality" then let them have it. We had enuf of that type of crap under Armstrong. Maybe not as bad as these silly Jews practice, as you say. But enuf is enuf.

Stingerski said...

Righteous Tom saith:

Now it would demonstrate a break through in intellectual honesty if you could either stop ducking the question or digressing from the topic, to bring up some irrelevant point. But I am not holding my breath!

Saint Tom, I am still waiting for you to answer my question to you about you repudiating your past Protestant beliefs, while you adopted your current Armstrongology. Apparently you must think that your religious crap doesn't stink. But everybody else's does.

I see.

Ok, Saint Tom. No more dodge ball here. Before you keep mouthing off here about how people won't answer your questions, TELL US PLEASE HOW ONLY YOU CAN REPUDIATE YOUR BELIEFS, WHILE NOBODY ELSE CAN?

AND YES, I AM SHOUTING TO YOUR DEAF EARS, YOU HYPOCRITE OF HYPOCRITES.

You white washed tombs are all mouth and ear wax.