Gird your loins Philadelphians, it's almost that time of year again. Unleavened everything, at least for the faithful members of the various Churches of God. Necessity is the mother of invention, and creative cooks are dusting off the recipe books as April 1 approaches.
Which is where Mississippi Mud Cake comes in. It was a seasonal recipe in the Worldwide News, circa 1977 (I'm guessing). Being a bloke with extremely limited culinary talent, then or now, I was seduced by the Dark Side of my chocolate addition to give it a go... the prospect of a week of hard rations was motivation enough (the unleavened bread photograph is original "hard tack" from the Civil War. John Brown's body may lie a-mouldering, but that stuff looks as unappetising as the day it was baked!)
Some things never change. Crispbread begone! The good folk of COGdom are even now gathering ingredients to fend off the munchies. Here's one such temptation, from the Likeminds board.
UNLEAVENED BANANA BREAD
1/2 C. shortening
2 eggs
3/4 C. brown sugar
1 1/2 C. flour
1/2 tsp. salt
1/2 C. cream or evaporated milk
1 tsp. vanilla extract
1 1/2 Cup bananas -- cut up
1/2 C. nuts -- chopped
Beat shortening, eggs, and brown sugar. Add flour and salt, milk and vanilla, bananas and nuts. Bake in 10x6-inch pan at 350° for 30 minutes
Sounds almost within my competence. But so did the mud cake and, well, let's just say it didn't inspire me to give up my day job and open a bakery. Those of us outside the US would need to adjust those inches and degrees to metric equivalents - anyone got a slide rule?
79 comments:
"(Exo 12:15 KJV) Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel."
Not a nice thing to say about what God told Israel to do, not nice...
I'll pass on the hardtack and other unleavened products, but this raises an interesting topic! I recall as a young boy, being taught that the metric system was a profane method of measurement, attributed to Satan. WCG ministers stated that the American system was closer to God's way, according to the descriptions of the methods used by ancient Israel which they read about in the Old Testament.
In fact, some even stated that if the US went metric, it would be yet another sign of the end times (what wasn't such a sign?).
Jeez, we really learned some bizarre things at church, didn't we?
BB
I make it a policy now that I am out of Herbalism to make sure I eat a big fat doughnut or a sandwich every day during Armstrongism's foolish days of 'unleavened' bread.
PG said...
I make it a policy now that I am out of Herbalism to make sure I eat a big fat doughnut or a sandwich every day during Armstrongism's foolish days of 'unleavened' bread.
How much weight do you gain after all those fat doughnuts? :)
Kinda like cutting your nose to spite your face...
anoneemoose
How much weight do you gain after all those fat doughnuts? :)
Kinda like cutting your nose to spite your face...
anoneemoose
MY COMMENT: Huh? I never saw any unleavened Herbie eater lose weight. As soon as the "days of unleavened bread" were over, everyone would pig out at the nearest restaurant. Like, it really helped them get rid of any sins, or reminded them to get the sin out. What a vain religion indeed!
Steve K
Dear Ambassador College Letter Answering Department:
Do you get kicked out of Church during the "Unleavened Days" if one discovers that they have a YEAST infection??
Please also find enclosed a small offering and this letter sealed with a kiss!
Lussenheide
"Not a nice thing to say about what God told Israel to do, not nice..."
MY COMMENT: Anyone care to comment on cutting the foreskin of your penis? Any ladies care to comment? :-)
Steve K
Dennis,
What did you expect from the Armstrongites here, logic or something?
Speaking of leaven, I found after a short time (during my tenure as an Armstrongologist) that there was nothing more puffed up, year round, than some members of the Herbster's cult. Such an arrogant, spiritually proud bunch of semi-literate dufuses (or is that "dufii"?) was indeed a sight to behold on any of their Jewish holy days.
- Stinger
Dennis said...
"Could anything be more perverse than the permission to sell to the alien--any foreign born, unnaturalized resident--for food, the flesh of an animal that died of itself? Maybe road kill?
MY COMMENT: Kinda reminds me of church people giving their leavened products to their neighbors, then taking it back after the "days of unleavened bread". My mother-in-law gave us all of her unleavened products this year, as well of a can of clam chowder(what was she doing with a can of clam chowder??). She thinks us poor souls really went off the deep end.
And may we not conclude that it would be asking too much to expect an enterprising Israelite to give away what he might sell?"
MY COMMENT: That's a Jew for you.
Steve K
Why are you guys so hung up on the Days of Unleavened Bread? You eat a Triscuit or two a day and the rest is gravy (or something). Eating unleavened bread is not that traumatic!
re: Deut. 14:21
we did a very indepth study of that some years ago....and what we discovered was a gross mistranslation of the script.
it actually reads:
(Deut. 14, 21): "Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself, give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates that he may eat it; or sell it unto an alien."
the most common reference books miss it as well.....maybe I can dig out my old notes and post the references.
"Why are you guys so hung up on the Days of Unleavened Bread?"
Translation: Why don't you guys "move on," or "get a life?"
Paul
"Why are you guys so hung up on the Days of Unleavened Bread?"
Translation: Why don't you guys "move on," or "get a life?"
Not true. I understand how you might be thrilled to be able to do what ever you like on the Sabbath or other Holy Days. But the DoUB is not some great obstacle.
steve said... That's a Jew for you.
Are you a classic anti-semite steve?
Northerner
Anonymous said...
"Why are you guys so hung up on the Days of Unleavened Bread? You eat a Triscuit or two a day and the rest is gravy (or something). Eating unleavened bread is not that traumatic!"
Why are you "guys" so hung up on the Days of Unleavened Bread. You eat a Triscuit or two a day...why? Why not eat bread with your gravy? Why is eating leavened bread so traumatic for you? If you have to be reminded for a week to "get the sin out", then something is lacking in your "diet".
Steve K
Anonymous said...
"I understand how you might be thrilled to be able to do what ever you like on the Sabbath or other Holy Days."
MY COMMENT: It's called LIBERTY in Christ.
"But the DoUB is not some great obstacle."
MY COMMENT: It is if you're caught with leavening!
steve said... That's a Jew for you.
"Are you a classic anti-semite steve?"
MY COMMENT: No one can say anything derogatory about a Jew. If they do, then they are labeled an "anti-semite". Talk about traumatic!
Steve K
Most folks don't realize it, but, according to the legend, the Days of Unleavened Bread were simply part of the package of practices given to the Jews, to make them appear as a strange or peculiar people, reserved for Yahweh.
The harvest related festivals have no nature-related symbolic significance in Rio de Janiero, and keeping the Sabbath is a real bear in Greenland. Clearly, this stuff was all limited to the Jews in Israel.
Herb-a-doodle-de-de tried to make us all into the lost Israelites so that all of the weirdness would allegedly apply to us, but we all know about Herb and all of his theories, don't we now?
I wonder what Moses and the Israelites would have thought of the Northern Lights?
In regards to Byker Bob's comments re: the metric system being of satan,
Well, the French did invent it after all. So that might be the one and only facet of Armstrongism that had some truth to it.... ;-)
lussenheide said...
Dear Ambassador College Letter Answering Department:
Do you get kicked out of Church during the "Unleavened Days" if one discovers that they have a YEAST infection??
MY COMMENT: What if you find a cookie in the pocket of your suit coat on the last day of unleavened bread? It was there all week after you picked it up from the last Spokesman Club meeting. Do you eat it, or throw it out? Are you cut off from Israel?
Steve K
You can swallow a camel during the days of unleavened bread, as long as you eat it with FLAT bread. I know many who did and still do. :-)
Steve K
Brethren the spring holy days are almost here. Remember to eat only unleavened bread from the 14th, at even, until the 21st, as Ex. 12:18 tells us. Are you reading this? And as you read it you won’t know what it says UNTIL you read it.
Now count the days. 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th. That is a total of 7 days. Scripture tells us that for 7 days you eat unleavened bread. Not 8 days.
And you eat unleavened bread until, (or is it including) the 21st? If it is including, then it is 8 days. Never mind what it says in Mat.26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:1, Ex. 12:18, and Ezek 45:21.
Where did the doctrine come from and when did it begin that the first DUB is to be the 15th ? What method of counting did they use? In my King James it says the Passover day is unleavened. And the days are unleavened for 7 days. So doesn’t’ that make the Passover day the first DUB?
Did the old goat get by with teaching us some more of his false doctrine, as he did with tithing, holy day offerings etc. etc.? If so then his minions are still teaching that also.
In my first year of school as I remember, we learned to count to at least 10. You can search the scriptures and you cannot find where the 1st DUB is the 15th.
I also learned to read pretty good by the 5th grade.
What if you find a cookie in the pocket of your suit coat on the last day of unleavened bread?
Your comments are as one who has never attended a CoG, and maybe just read what someone else said about it.
If you find unleavened bread in your house or person during DB, you just throw it out (more than one minister inc. HWA has referred to such a situation). I've unthinkingly eaten bread and one time an ice cream cone during DB. Obviously one just needs to try to take care.
***** Northerner
"I understand how you might be thrilled to be able to do what ever you like on the Sabbath or other Holy Days."
Ahhhh. How refreshing to hear the same old parroted little sayings that I heard again and again in the COG-
"Do their own thing."
This is always used to demonize the non-Sabbath keeper. It's outlandish to even consider that the person came to the conclusion that the Sabbath does not have to be observed through a reading of the scripture, because everyone knows that the scripture ~clearly~ says that the Sabbath is binding, or at least the ministers and pamphlets say so!
So observing Sunday instead Saturday has to be due to childish, rebellious desires and wants. A non-Sabbath keeper refuses to keep the Sabbath because he or she only want to "do their own thing" on Saturdays instead of obeying God. That is how twisted and Godless they are.
There is nothing more comforting than predictability.
Paul
"Of course my point is that we are not endeavoring to provoke the Deity as in... "it's not nice to fool mother nature," but rather how we mortals got around UB or overdid it all and swallowed a camel in the process...ewwww"
Dennis,
So glad to hear you don't want to provoke "the Deity" and I'm glad to see you even capitalized "Deity", that shows at least some reverence.
Most on this forum do not appear to to have even that much reverence for the God Israel; who is also the God of the Gentiles.
This attests to the damage done by Orthodox theologians of the 2nd through 4th century. They created much of the NT; social engineering to get Gentiles converts. It worked.
And after some 1600 years our good Evangelical friends still buy into these fabrications inserted into the NT canon.
I had the pleasure of some cultural enrichment about 15 years ago, in the form of working with a colleague who was part of the Chabad movement, which is Hassidic Jewish in origins.
From my friend, I learned that devout Jews do indeed have one standard of behavior towards fellow Jews, and another standard reserved for non-Jewish (Goy, or Goyim). This is deeply rooted in the Torah, as exemplified by the scripture which Gavin initially quoted. It has been part of the basic understanding of Judaism for many centuries now.
My Jewish friend elected to treat me as a fellow Jew, because he knew that I had grown up observing the sabbath and holydays, and considered me, other than himself, to be the closest thing to a Jew in the office in which we worked.
I've learned over the years that the Jews have a much deeper understanding of their native customs and traditions. In the RCG/WCG, we really did not get into the laws of the Torah and TANAKH in any meaningful way at all. For Armstrongites, the concept of the "New Covenant" was basically used to allow us to pick and choose what parts of the 613 laws enumerated in Leviticus were still in force today.
Scripture says that the oracles were given to the Jews to preserve, so you'd think we would have looked more to the Jews for understanding. In fact, what we ended up practicing, in our limited understanding, was "Diet Judaism.", a patchwork of new material on an old garment. Tohu and Bohu. Confusion.
BB
Anonymous said... "Where did the doctrine come from and when did it begin that the first DUB is to be the 15th ? What method of counting did they use? In my King James it says the Passover day is unleavened. And the days are unleavened for 7 days. So doesn’t’ that make the Passover day the first DUB?"
MY COMMENT: Herbert used to write about this verse [v6], and emphasize the word
"until" by putting it in CAPS. This was to make the point that the lamb was to be kept "until the 14th arrived and no later". This placed extra emphasis
on the idea that the lamb was to be slain at the beginning of the 14th. This is "reasoning from English". The Hebrew text makes NO such emphasis. This very common Hebrew word for "until" has NO such strict connotation. The English word "until" may have that limitation but the Hebrew word here does not! Herbert taught that "beyn ha-arbayim" is the waning hours of the 13th transitioning into the 14th.
Beyn ha-abayim in the Hebrew text is always used in reference to the waning day. That is to say, the beyn ha-arbayim of the 14th *must* occur *as the
14th is waning*. If this simple fact is not true, then the Hebrew text is seriously wanting. But of course the Hebrew text is not flawed at all! The text in fact substantiates this truth. Also, it is important to realize that the Passover was not a DAY, but an EVENT, according to the original Hebrew language. The Passover, an event, was always slain on the 14th, the end of that day, then eaten on the 15th, the beginning of that day.
Steve K
Anonymous said...
What if you find a cookie in the pocket of your suit coat on the last day of unleavened bread?
Your comments are as one who has never attended a CoG, and maybe just read what someone else said about it.
MY COMMENT: I was in the cult from 1969 to 1995. I'm the one who had a cookie in my pocket. I discovered it after the last day of unleavened bread while eating out that evening with some "brethren". Should I have eaten it, or thrown it away? :-)
If you find unleavened bread in your house or person during DB, you just throw it out (more than one minister inc. HWA has referred to such a situation). I've unthinkingly eaten bread and one time an ice cream cone during DB. Obviously one just needs to try to take care.
MY COMMENT: A measuring stick of righteousness.
Steve K
Amazingly Polycrates and his many followers were keeping the Passover and the Unleavened Bread as late as 196 AD and because of his stance, one being tradition since the time of the Apostles and the scripture, he was excommunicated by Rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycrates_of_Ephesus
So, the Holy Days or at least one of them, was not 'done away with' for almost 160 plus years after the sacrifice of Jesus.
Did you know Patrick, the first of three of them, kept the Passover or Pascha? He was considered the founder of Celtic Christianity and a Quartodeciman by many and learned his doctrine from the disciples of Ireneaus. There are many websites that prove this, below is one.
The website: http://reformation.org/father_crowley.html shows that Patrick was a Quartodeciman. His ideology continued for over 200 years in England, Scotland, Ireland and France.
Did you know that it was kept by Adamnan, a Celtic Christian who finally accepted the Roman determination of the day as late as 686 where he attempted to convince his associates to do the same? http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/ADA_AIZ/ADAMNAN_or_ADOMNAN_c_624_704_.html
The controversy was also addressed earlier in 664, where Aidan defended the 14th observation since the time of Columba and the Apostle John. They were told that they need to follow 'Peter,' ie Rome. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc4.all.html
That the Celtic Christians kept the Passover as late as 696 is very telling. For over 500 years after the excommunication of Polycrates from Rome the days carried on and on with Rome's condemnation.
If you look at the article above about Polycrates he also mentioned the keeping of the unleavened bread literally.
Anonymous said...
Amazingly Polycrates and his many followers were keeping the Passover and the Unleavened Bread as late as 196 AD and because of his stance, one being tradition since the time of the Apostles and the scripture, he was excommunicated by Rome.
MY COMMENT: Hmmmm. It seems a little fishy that he would know the "truth" about keeping a Herbert passover, but didn't know the truth about "bishops", which is a Catholic concept, NOT anywhere to be found in the ORIGINAL Greek New Testament. Still couldn't get rid of those old Catholic Church terminologies? Something smells like fish.
Steve K
Just a question from one who wants to know: Victor in Rome excommunicated Polycrates? In the second century? Was the bishop of Rome already, at that period of time, authorized to excommunicate people in other parts of the world? Wasn't authority in the church still quite decentralized, although Rome was trying to make the case for supremacy? After all, as the centuries went by, the issue of papal supremacy over all other bishops and patriarchs finally served as a major cause of the Great Schism of 1054. The patriarchs of the eastern churches resisted the insistence from Rome that the pope was the sole "vicar of Christ" in the church, although they apparently were willing to consider him first among equals.
So again: how far did Victor's ecclesiastical authority reach, all the way back in the second century?
camfinch said...
"Just a question from one who wants to know: Victor in Rome excommunicated Polycrates?"
MY COMMENT: So we are told, but later reversed his decision.
In the second century? Was the bishop of Rome already, at that period of time, authorized to excommunicate people in other parts of the world?
MY COMMENT: A lot can happen in 190 years. :-)
Wasn't authority in the church still quite decentralized, although Rome was trying to make the case for supremacy? After all, as the centuries went by, the issue of papal supremacy over all other bishops and patriarchs finally served as a major cause of the Great Schism of 1054. The patriarchs of the eastern churches resisted the insistence from Rome that the pope was the sole "vicar of Christ" in the church, although they apparently were willing to consider him first among equals.
MY COMMENT: Not so in 196 A.D....so we are told.
So again: how far did Victor's ecclesiastical authority reach, all the way back in the second century?
MY COMMENT: He was pretty much the big cheese. He changed mass from Greek to Latin. He was later cannonized. He had a lot of pull. He was the "pastor general" of the 2nd century.
Steve K
Amazingly Polycrates and his many followers were keeping the Passover and the Unleavened Bread as late as 196 AD and because of his stance, one being tradition since the time of the Apostles and the scripture, he was excommunicated by Rome"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycrates_of_Ephesus
I just read "The Gospel of Judas and the Shaping of Christianity" by Elaine Pagels and Karen L. King. It provides an excellent history of the conflicts in Christianity in the 2nd CE.
Orthodoxy won. An ever so sad and fascinating story!
The authors point out on page 94 that
in the Gospel of John there is no
bread and wine. There is no Eucharist.
At Passover some early Christians
recited a poem called the "The
Round Dance of the Cross". It is
found in "The Acts of John".
This liturgy was used to commemorate
the evening Jesus spent with His
disciples prior to His crucification.
Regardless how it was done, early Christians
did celebrate Passover and did keep Days of UB.
One of the difficulties Armstrongites face stems from superimposing the Armstrong model for a church over the early Christians. In other words, "I am the Apostle, I preach the gospel that was preached by Jesus Christ, here are the doctrines, if you disagree you are disfellowshipped and are going to the Lake of Fire!"
The basic problem is that (assuming there ever was a Jesus in the first place) in the early centuries of the Christian era, most people were still attempting to discover precisely what was the meaning of Jesus Christ, and how to respond as humans/Christians. There were many people who taught many different things, and the NT chronicles disputes even among the disciples/apostles. Many of the beliefs which are generally assumed to be true today had not yet been formalized into orthodoxy in the early era.
We often bemoan the fact that there are so many churches or sects today. I believe this was always true, even in early Jewish times. It seems that humans are left to figure the whole thing out, and there has never been one nice neat package presented for believers to receive or reject.
Even if I happened to be a believer, this situation would leave me mostly agnostic. What is real, and what is Memorex? Can anyone be sure? People in the ACOGs speak authoritatively as if they are sure! Often, other more eloquent voices speak with equal or more compelling assurance.
BB
The Round Dance of the Gospel of John.
Enjoy!
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/actsjohn.html
94 Now before he was taken by the lawless Jews, who also were governed by (had their law from) the lawless serpent, he gathered all of us together and said: Before I am delivered up unto them let us sing an hymn to the Father, and so go forth to that which lieth before us. He bade us therefore make as it were a ring, holding one another's hands, and himself standing in the midst he said: Answer Amen unto me. He began, then, to sing an hymn and to say:
Glory be to thee, Father.
And we, going about in a ring, answered him: Amen.
Glory be to thee, Word: Glory be to thee, Grace. Amen.
Glory be to thee, Spirit: Glory be to thee, Holy One:
Glory be to thy glory. Amen.
We praise thee, O Father; we give thanks to thee, O Light, wherein darkness
dwelleth not. Amen.
95 Now whereas (or wherefore) we give thanks, I say:
I would be saved, and I would save. Amen.
I would be loosed, and I would loose. Amen.
I would be wounded, and I would wound. Amen.
I would be born, and I would bear. Amen.
I would eat, and I would be eaten. Amen.
I would hear, and I would be heard. Amen.
I would be thought, being wholly thought. Amen.
I would be washed, and I would wash. Amen.
Grace danceth. I would pipe; dance ye all. Amen.
I would mourn: lament ye all. Amen.
The number Eight (lit. one ogdoad) singeth praise with us. Amen.
The number Twelve danceth on high. Amen.
The Whole on high hath part in our dancing. Amen.
Whoso danceth not, knoweth not what cometh to pass. Amen.
I would flee, and I would stay. Amen.
I would adorn, and I would be adorned. Amen.
I would be united, and I would unite. Amen.
A house I have not, and I have houses. Amen.
A place I have not, and I have places. Amen.
A temple I have not, and I have temples. Amen.
A lamp am I to thee that beholdest me. Amen.
A mirror am I to thee that perceivest me. Amen.
A door am I to thee that knockest at me. Amen.
A way am I to thee a wayfarer. .
96 Now answer thou (or as thou respondest) unto my dancing. Behold thyself in me who speak, and seeing what I do, keep silence about my mysteries...
Anonymous said...
Amazingly Polycrates and his many followers were keeping the Passover and the Unleavened Bread as late as 196 AD and because of his stance, one being tradition since the time of the Apostles and the scripture, he was excommunicated by Rome"
MY COMMENT: People were excommunicated by Rome for many reasons. And, so what? Look at all of those who keep the passover and dub today, even the Jews. Does that make THEM right?
"Regardless how it was done, early Christians
did celebrate Passover and did keep Days of UB."
MY COMMENT: So, that makes it right and proper? Paul said, "You observe days, moons, seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain", then he goes on by saying, in the same thread, "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law...". So, what law is he talking about? In the same thread before this, Paul chided Peter for compelling the Gentiles to live as Jews. Do you think he was just talking about circumcision?(vs 14). Paul relates the incident at Antioch in which Peter had been bold enough to set aside the law and participate in table fellowship with Gentiles. But when his more conservative Jerusalem brethren who "came from James" arrived in Antioch, Peter broke off table fellowship with the Gentile brethren. His example influenced other Jewish Christians, including Barnabas, to do the same (Gal. 2:11-13).
Paul relates how upset he was over this hypocrisy and how he rebuked Peter to his face for a course of action when denied the gospel (Gal. 2:14). In this context of confrontation with Peter, Paul then launches into the theme of justification by faith apart from the works of the law. His point is essentially that the law cannot justify anyone before God but can only curse and condemn. If anyone relies on keeping the law for acquittal on the day of judgment, he denies the gospel and makes Christ's death of none effect (Gal. 2:16-21). There are two important things to notice in Paul's argument at this point:
1. He shifts his argument away from circumcision in particular to the law in general. All parties in the circumcision dispute well understood that circumcision was merely a sign or token of subjection to the law (Rom. 2:25; Gal. 5:3). The real issue was whether Gentile believers should submit to the yoke of the Jewish law.
2. The word law (nomos), repeatedly used in Galatians 2-4, is the Greek counter-part of the Old Testament word Torah. It does not refer exclusively to the ceremonial law or exclusively to the moral law. It means the entire law or legal system which was given to Israel through the Mosaic administration (see Gal. 3:10-13, 17, 19, 24,25; 4:21, 22, where it is manifestly impossible to restrict the term "law" to either ceremonies or ethical precepts).
Do you think Polycrates had it right? He sure didn't have it right about government in the church. He came from a long line of "Bishops"...a hierarchical government. So, how can he have any credibility?
When Paul said, Let us keep the feast, was he talking about unleavened bread, or something new? He said not with the OLD leaven, but with the unleavened of sincerity and truth."(the word "bread" is NOT in the Scripture. Maybe Polycrates added it. :-)
Steve K
"MY COMMENT: So, that makes it right and proper? Paul said, "You observe days, moons, seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain", then he goes on by saying, in the same thread, "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law...". So, what law is he talking about?"
Paul never existed. He is a literary creation of the Gentile Gnostic Christianity.
http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/detering.html
"In that case, Marcion would not be a pupil of Paul, but the figure of "Paul" would in reality be a creation of Marcionism, by means of which the Marcionites retrojected their theology into the apostolic past, in order to provide themselves with a pedigree and a precedent for their doctrines in the theological conflicts of the second century."
This is a long article, well worth
reading.
Anonymous said...
"Why are you guys so hung up on the Days of Unleavened Bread? You eat a Triscuit or two a day and the rest is gravy (or something). Eating unleavened bread is not that traumatic!"
Neither is not eating any bread at all! The thing is that the passover was when the death angel passed over the Israelites and killed the first born of Egypt. The bread was made in "haste" because they were departing Egypt.
What does that have to do with Gentiles? Not a thing.
No, Anglo/Saxons are not Israel, they are Gentiles as has been proven by mitocondrial DNA. The days of unleavened bread were only for Israel as a nation under the old covenant.
Supposedly the Israel of God (christians) are under the new covenant which is "not according to" the old covenant. Not even circumcision is required of the Gentiles, which is the very "sign" of the old covenant.
Further the "rest" is not a day, as in the sabbath day, but a rest from works of the law, i.e., the new covenant with the faith that one is "in Christ" and are free from the law through his death.
Well, that's what it says anyway. You are free to believe it or not.
"Neither is not eating any bread at all! The thing is that the passover was when the death angel passed over the Israelites and killed the first born of Egypt. The bread was made in "haste" because they were departing Egypt."
Hmmmm. So when it is mentioned in the NT that "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us....." how does that relate only to Israelites and Egypt and eliminate the Gentiles? Paul was writing to gentiles in Corinth when he said that. So, it was for the NT.
Anonymous said...
"So when it is mentioned in the NT that "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us....." how does that relate only to Israelites and Egypt and eliminate the Gentiles? Paul was writing to gentiles in Corinth when he said that. So, it was for the NT."
MY COMMENT: That's a little misleading. You're trying to put new wine into old wineskins. It states that Christ WAS sacrificed for us. He doesn't need to be sacrificed every year, year after year.(Heb. 9:24-28).
YOU are to be unleavened(I Cor. 5:7), not your bread, and YOU are to be unleavened all the time, not just one week out of the year. Israel needed to be reminded constantly year after year because they didn't have access to the Holy Spirit. I just don't understand why you think you need unleavened bread to remind you to "get the sin out". The Jews today do not have access to the Spirit of Christ, so they keep the Old Testament Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread, and the Old Testament Day of Atonement, doing penance to try to find merit with God. I Cor. 5:7-8 does NOT speak about using the PHYSICAL bread, which can never rid a person of malice and wickedness, but instead, promotes the use of the "unleavened( the word "bread" is NOT there) of sincerity and truth". Has it not become clear to you by now that we, as a group calling itself "god's church", hardly ever displayed sincerity and truth by the use of unleavened bread?
We should have total freedom from a sense of guilt, a freedom based upon the sacrifice of Christ, once and for all! There is no need to have to be reminded year after year by getting rid of physical bread, or by afflicting one's soul in repentance for past misdeeds again and again.
Jesus said, "I am the bread of life. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever." And, according to the book of Hebrews, Jesus has atoned for our sins once and for all. There is no reason to feel remorse and guilt any longer on the Day of Atonement, or to try to wipe the "sin slate" clean again and again at Passover. The reason it was repeated year after year bore testimony to the fact that the perfect, sin-removing sacrifice had not yet been offered. There was no reconciliation. Now, there has been. (Rom. 5:11). Jesus, through His Passover sacrifice, removed our sins, once and for all. We don't need to be constantly reminding Him, and ourselves, that He needs to be sacrificed. Once purified, there is no more CONSCIOUSNESS of sins(Heb.10:2). We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all(Heb. 10:10). For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified(Heb. 10:14). End of story.
Steve K
To Steve:
Now if you look at Anon's post, no one said that Jesus is sacrificed year after year. If you are a Christian still, most likely your church has a eucharist week after week, would that not be a symbolic ritual?
Paul in I Cor. said, so let us keep the feast. He did not qualify it by saying let us keep the feast spiritually every day of our lives in the spirit of keeping it spiritually. He said, so, let us keep the feast. Pretty simple.
Sorry Anon...Steve declared the story at an end and no further informatiion is being accepted at this time. Thank you for stopping in.
"Paul in I Cor. said, so let us keep the feast."
If you can find a single major commentary that agrees with you that Paul in I Cor. 5:8 intended to advocate a literal keeping of the DUB, please post it.
The fact is, when you read the whole book of I Cor. it becomes clear that this entire verse is meant figuratively, not just the parts about "the yeast of malice and wickedness" and "the bread of sincerity and truth" but the entire verse.
So if you can find a single major commentary to support you, please post it.
Anonymous said...
To Steve:
"Now if you look at Anon's post, no one said that Jesus is sacrificed year after year."
MY COMMENT: Then, why keep the OT Passover year after year? There is no such thing as a "NT Passover". Can you find that phrase anywhere in the Scriptures? When your "ministers" give their sermons this year, see from where they read to make their point.
"If you are a Christian still, most likely your church has a eucharist week after week, would that not be a symbolic ritual?"
MY COMMENT: They are doing it because Jesus said, "Do THIS in remembrance of Me.". And, Paul said "AS OFTEN AS you do this...", the same Greek phrase used here is only used one other time, and it means the same thing. Why do you counterfeit what Jesus said to do with the OT Passover?
"Paul in I Cor. said, so let us keep the feast. He did not qualify it by saying let us keep the feast spiritually every day of our lives in the spirit of keeping it spiritually. He said, so, let us keep the feast. Pretty simple."
MY COMMENT: Yes, it's pretty simple if you don't proof-text it. But, it's understandable, since you are probably in a COG.
Steve K
Anon said "So if you can find a single major commentary to support you, please post it."
Once again, "end of story" has been declared. There is nothing more to add. All truth on the matter is now known. We now lack nothing in the story, so the story has now ended. Nothing more entered on this post can be accepted once "end of story" is declared.
Please know...An "End of Story" declaration is a serious matter and stories can only be ended when one knows there can't possibly be anything left to add to the story. We now are at that point of the story.
If at anytime in the future, other endings, information or points of view that are more valid than that of the original story are found, we will contact you for your input...These additions to "end of story" must, however, be approved by the one who ended the story and the chance of that occuring is slim to none. Because..well, the story is ended.
Thank you for stopping by though....:)
Thanks Steve K.
I think you have clarified that even enough for COG members to understand - if they choose to understand it, that is.
"I think you have clarified that even enough for COG members to understand - if they choose to understand it, that is."
Thank you sir. Sorry if I overstated it. These people just need to realize that once the "end of story" is declared, it means that all future ideas, opinions, perspectives and keyboarding is null and void. I believe they now understand this, and it will not happen again.
Let’s all laugh at the Sikhs, who feel it’s mandatory to wear a turban.
Let’s all laugh at the Jews, who think circumcision is a requirement.
Let’s all laugh at the Muslims, who need to find out which way is Mecca in order to pray correctly.
Let’s all laugh at the Churches of God, who feel they shouldn’t be eating leaven for a week.
If your six year old child was saying things like the above in the school playground, don’t you think you would need to teach him/her that they should have a little respect for other people’s deeply held personal views?
So Steve K, Mr. End of Story.
It is kept every week, yet we do not need to do it. Do it as often, but there is no need. That is why the CoGers feel that churchianity arguments against the Holy Days are put up to ridicule. They ridicule us, we keep the day one time a year the same day he did, Paul says keep the feast, seems clear. So you say, 'no, it has been abolished, but you keep the ceremony every week.' Who can get stuff like that when the scriptures are pretty clear. Okay, we will shut up, not read here any more and you will lose any continued debate about the issues since we are the only ones who are supposedly close minded and you, the ones trying to get us to think, are not willing to debate nicely.
Debate closed, we will let you take your anti church of God hate speech with you too. We will pray for you and be in the spirit of forgiveness, and hope that your hatefulness toward anyone who thinks differently will shortly be overcome so that you can take your wafer the next week it comes around.
Thank you for the written abuse.
Steve said...
You can swallow a camel during the days of unleavened bread, as long as you eat it with FLAT bread. I know many who did and still do. :-)
Nice commentary, very well thought out and scholarly. We will keep the feast, you will not. Hope you do not choke on your camel.
Steve K "MY COMMENT: No one can say anything derogatory about a Jew. If they do, then they are labeled an "anti-semite". Talk about traumatic!"
I think it was the 'thats a Jew for you.' You were not making a comment about one Jew, you were making about a Jew and making a broad racist comment, or is it komment. Steve, is the K for Kommandant or some other Nazi racist attribute. Please let us know heer Steve.
"Once again, "end of story" has been declared."
Whew, what a lot of hot air just to tacitly admit that no one who understands the original Greek agrees with you.
My request for you to provide support for your position somehow got twisted into a demand that you shut up. What twisted logic, or maybe it's a fear of submitting your beliefs to a reasoned examination.
If you have something new to add, please do so. But don't expect anyone to sit up and pay attention just because your KJV tells you something in what you think is plain English. After all, HWA found support for keeping a Monday Pentecost in 49 English translations. It was only when he consulted a Hebrew scholar that he admitted he was wrong.
"Once again, "end of story" has been declared."
The above statement is snarkage..I agree with YOU. :)
Let's look at U.B positively.
How many of you out there need to lose some avoirdupois? Quite a number,I guess.It's only for a week, and you might find the waistline reducing somewhat.You might even be able to fit into some of those older but still wearable clothes in the wardrobe.
At least you can soak your dog biscuits(unleavened ones)in beer which is spent yeast, so we are assured.
Lussenheide commented on a yeast infection...take a toothbrush along to footwashing to remove any yeasts and fungi from between the toes.Then you can use it to clean those crumbs from the toaster.
Have a Happy Easter,oops, Unleavened Bread.
jorgheinz
Anonymous said...
"So Steve K, Mr. End of Story."
MY COMMENT: Are you offended?
"It is kept every week, yet we do not need to do it."
MY COMMENT: We are talking about two different things here. I'm talking about what Christ instituted to be kept often. You are cofusing that with the OT Passover. You think there is such a thing as the "NT Passover", but are unable to substantiate it, because it's not mentioned in the Scriptures. I understand why you would think that. You were taught that by your mentor.
"Do it as often, but there is no need."
MY COMMENT: But, there IS a need to do it and then call it the "Passover" at the time the Jewish calendar, and your "ministers", dictate? Hmmmm!
"That is why the CoGers feel that churchianity arguments against the Holy Days are put up to ridicule. They ridicule us,"
MY COMMENT: Oh, poor baby!
"we keep the day one time a year the same day he did,"
MY COMMENT: So, you admit that you still keep the OT Passover...as He did. Remember, you'll hear all those OT Scriptures this year in the old recycled sermons. Remember, you heard it first.
"Paul says keep the feast, seems clear."
MY COMMENT: You're being redundant.
"you say, 'no, it has been abolished, but you keep the ceremony every week.'"
MY COMMENT: You have a hard time keeping up, don't you? I never said that what Jesus introduced was abolished. Keep up!
"Who can get stuff like that when the scriptures are pretty clear. Okay, we will shut up, not read here any more and you will lose any continued debate about the issues since we are the only ones who are supposedly close minded"
MY COMMENT: So, you're speaking for ALL of the COGers on here? Do they have to follow your orders?
"and you, the ones trying to get us to think, are not willing to debate nicely."
MY COMMENT: Are you being accused of being lost, or threatened to be thrown into the lake of fire? I don't think so. I only see that type of diatribe from COGers.
"Debate closed, we will let you take your anti church of God hate speech with you too."
MY COMMENT: "If I can't win, I'm going to throw a fit and go home. Boo hoo hoo! Your church of god affiliation is showing.
"We will pray for you and be in the spirit of forgiveness,"
MY COMMENT: Please don't pray for me to YOUR god.
"and hope that your hatefulness toward anyone who thinks differently will shortly be overcome so that you can take your wafer the next week it comes around."
MY COMMENT: Why are you resorting to this accusation? I don't hate you. I never said that I hate you. Where did this come from?
"Thank you for the written abuse."
MY COMMENT: If you think THIS is abuse, how did you handle the abuse in the WCG? I think you need to grow some alligator skin. :-)
Steve K
Anonymous said...
Steve K "MY COMMENT: No one can say anything derogatory about a Jew. If they do, then they are labeled an "anti-semite". Talk about traumatic!"
I think it was the 'thats a Jew for you.'
MY COMMENT: Getting a little testy, aren't you?
You were not making a comment about one Jew, you were making about a Jew and making a broad racist comment, or is it komment. Steve, is the K for Kommandant or some other Nazi racist attribute. Please let us know heer Steve.
MY COMMENT: So, if I would have said, "That's an Irishman for you", you wouldn't have given it a second thought. By calling someone an anti-semite, you can get people to rally around you, because no one likes an anti-semite, except a Nazi, especially Cogers, "who say they are Jews, but are not".
Steve K
Anonymous said...
Anon said "So if you can find a single major commentary to support you, please post it."
Once again, "end of story" has been declared. There is nothing more to add. All truth on the matter is now known. We now lack nothing in the story, so the story has now ended. Nothing more entered on this post can be accepted once "end of story" is declared.
MY COMMENT: You're confusing this site with a "church of god" organization. Your "ministers" will give you all the "truth" you need for salvation, and anything else is considered Satanic literature. As one UCG member told me, "I learned all the truth years ago from Mr Armstrong and my "ministers". I don't need to learn anything else.".
So, she shut her ears and her eyes, and lives in her comfort zone. Remind you of anyone?
Steve K
From a COGer:
WE COG MEMBERS CHECK IN ONCE IN A WHILE BECAUSE ALL OF YOU ARE SUCH GOOD EXAMPLES TO US...AS WHAT NOT TO DO, AND HOW NOT TO BE...YOU PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ANSWER TO YOUR CREATOR FOR ALL THIS ONE DAY... I KNOW, ( WINK, WINK, SNICKER, SNICKER, GRIN. GRIN.) YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, BECAUSE YOU'VE FOUND SOMETHING BETTER, WELL YOU BETTER ENJOY IT WHILE YOU CAN...IF YOU EVER KNEW THE TRUTH AND TURNED FROM IT YOU'VE HAD IT!
MY COMMENT: See what I mean.
Steve K
ewwwwwwwwwwwww..Gaaaavin, saaave us my pretty...Change the posting topic...We're meeeeellllting......squish...
On reflection, my toothbrush method is definitely not suitable for removal of all yeast infections.
For a person who has EVERYTHING (i.e.all the yeast infections), a course of medication is recommended.I daresay you had one or two cases like this in Ambassador.And,of course, this type of yeast infection,if discovered during U.B.,could have caused expulsion from A.C.
At this time of the year when flagellation is performed, especially in the Philippines,I was tempted to pun on the drug "FLAGYL",which unfortunately can cause yeasts itself, but not necessarily eliminate them.Though, I daresay, some people in A.C. were treated with Flagyl.
In some churches, I understand,that no risings of any sort or kind are allowed during Unleavened Bread.
Jorgheinz
The COGs think they are God's ordained,sanctified and anointed, and that the only way to Eternal life is through them. Vain and arrogant !!
The disciples mentioned to Christ that people were preaching in his name and performing miracles.Christ said leave them alone...they are not against us; he allowed them free passage.
There are many vehicles for dispensing the gospel other than the COGs.Even,within themselves they seek exclusivity.
To any COGs who read this,your attitude is sickening.Hypocrites supreme.
What about the Jews,the keepers of the Law? God will not reject them,ultimately.I suppose the COGs would have us believe,that to be a Jew is to incur eternal damnation.
And another thing; COGS are hot on the giving of tithes: God said he would supply the need if they were/are truly obeying him.Stop flogging the members, COGs, and rely upon God to supply your needs.Don't be HYPOCRITES.
Just imagine what would happen if the COG hierarchies didn't flog the members for tithes.There just might be a trickle of tithe.
As I see it,COGs MOCK the creator they purport to serve.The trickle of tithe mentioned above could be God's response to their NEED or his response to their degree of "righteousness".Take it which way you will. I prefer the latter interpretation.
And so, when they flail the members for more money,they are, in effect,saying that God is not blessing them because of their perfidy.
Jorgheinz
I am profoundly overwhelmed by the intelligence of you smart people.
jorgheinz said
What about the Jews,the keepers of the Law? God will not reject them,ultimately.I suppose the COGs would have us believe,that to be a Jew is to incur eternal damnation.
______________
Were you ever in a CoG jorgheinz? Anyone who spent any time in one should know that we believe that those who have not been called in this age (which includes practically all the Jews) will be resurrected in the second resurrection and offered salvation.
It is Catholics and also most Protestants who believe that to be a Jew is to incur eternal damnation.
Steve said
MY COMMENT: So, if I would have said, "That's an Irishman for you", you wouldn't have given it a second thought. By calling someone an anti-semite, you can get people to rally around you, because no one likes an anti-semite, ...
_________________________
Substituting in "Irishman" would be similar in its casual denigration of an ethnic group, but perhaps since you have the liberty of Christ going for you, it doesn't matter!
You're a smart guy, steve, so you should have an awareness that posting anti-Semitic remarks will be strongly noted by some.
As for 'no one likes an anti-Semite', anti-Semitism is clearly on the rise these days, and your remarks about Jews might be quite popular on various Islamic and Leftist websites.
Saac's Son said...
Most folks don't realize it, but, according to the legend, the Days of Unleavened Bread were simply part of the package of practices given to the Jews, to make them appear as a strange or peculiar people, reserved for Yahweh.
The harvest related festivals have no nature-related symbolic significance in Rio de Janiero, and keeping the Sabbath is a real bear in Greenland. Clearly, this stuff was all limited to the Jews in Israel.
And salvation is of the Jews, as Christ said. What do the anti-Jews have then?
Gavin takes the lead - snickers, hoots, scoffs and all. And I can almost hear his equally derisive (translation: hopelessly bitter) gang or followers oblige to his baton.
Shucks! This bitterness is so comprehensive even biscuits fail to escape attention. What's next?
Northerner,
Yes, I was a COG member for decades.And yes, I am aware of what we were taught about the second resurrection.And yes,you are right,the dead of the world,including Jews,will be raised after the thousand years are over.
Yes,yes,Northener, we all know what you say, and you are correct.
I was indulging in some comparative hyperbole to hopefully prove a point about the "up-themselves" COGS but obviously it fell flat.
Some of those COGs feel so superior about their inside track to God,you would think,that besides them,the Jew, the preferred ones,rank insignificantly in the salvation stakes.
That's what I was trying to say.
jorgheinz
I'm not anti-Jewish. Jews and African Americans have made some of the best rock n roll since way back in 1955. Where would music be without the Brill Building in New York City, and the staff of very talented musicians of all ethnic backgrounds?
But, back around the first century of the common era, there was the church unto the Jews, and the Noachide church unto the Gentiles.
Part of the HWAcaca was the twisting Paul's words and teachings to make them appear to have conformed to Judaism. But, they didn't. No how, no way! There were always different standards for Jews, and the Gentiles who had seen the merits of the Jewish religion and wanted to participate. Basically, it involved avoiding lasciviousness, and not eating things sacrificed to pagan idols. The basic 613 never did apply to Gentiles, or Gentile converts.
All cultures survive, and their participants can be happy no matter what the native customs happen to be. A holiday, in or of itself, is not going to make you
happy or sad. I wouldn't want to observe a holiday involving human sacrifice, or orgiastic behavior, but beyond that, it makes no difference to me whether a person aspires to be a spiritual Jew, spiritual Mexican, Asian, African, or whatever. It's the concept of the transformed or circumcised heart that counts, and how one treats his/her fellow humans. If a church has intrusive Nicolaitane leadership, it's probably a Satan-influenced cult.
I almost share anons feelings:
Anonymous said...
I am profoundly overwhelmed by the intelligence of you smart people.
I am underwhelmed by the intelligence displayed here.
Anonymous said...
"And salvation is of the Jews, as Christ said. What do the anti-Jews have then?"
MY COMMENT: You are ignorant of the meaning of the Scriptures. Jesus speaking to the Jews, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me, but you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
Steve K
Anonymous said...
I almost share anons feelings:
Anonymous said...
I am profoundly overwhelmed by the intelligence of you smart people.
I am underwhelmed by the intelligence displayed here.
MY COMMENT: "And that's why I keep coming back for more!" :-)
Steve K
Northerner said...
Were you ever in a CoG jorgheinz? Anyone who spent any time in one should know that we believe that those who have not been called in this age (which includes practically all the Jews) will be resurrected in the second resurrection and offered salvation.
It is Catholics and also most Protestants who believe that to be a Jew is to incur eternal damnation.
MY COMMENT: How arrogant!Actually, we believed in our exclusivity. Our little "called" group was the only one that was going to be in the first resurrection. Any who left our exclusive group, including Joey Jr, would be in the "third" resurrection. All others, Catholics, protestants, 7th day adventists, Jews, all other COG splinters, would be in the "second" resurrection. Duh!
Steve K
steve said
MY COMMENT: How arrogant!Actually, we believed in our exclusivity. Our little "called" group was the only one that was going to be in the first resurrection. Any who left our exclusive group, including Joey Jr, would be in the "third" resurrection. All others, Catholics, protestants, 7th day adventists, Jews, all other COG splinters, would be in the "second" resurrection. Duh!
________________________
Pretty well my position, although regarding exclusivity, many in the world including Islamics, Catholics, many Protestants have a notion of their own exclusivity, and for many, their own exclusivity involves those excluded going to hell. Some like the liberal Episcopalians have a view of many paths to God.
So what is your view steve? Many paths to God, or hell for those who deviate a little too much from your beliefs?
Northerner said...
Pretty well my position, although regarding exclusivity, many in the world including Islamics, Catholics, many Protestants have a notion of their own exclusivity, and for many, their own exclusivity involves those excluded going to hell. Some like the liberal Episcopalians have a view of many paths to God.
MY COMMENT: Yes, they are as exclusive as you COGers, but why try to shine the light away from yourself? You believe that your little group is any different? Look at the strange belief system that you have. You believe in a third resurrection. Not even Biblical. This is your view of one path to hell.
So what is your view steve? Many paths to God, or hell for those who deviate a little too much from your beliefs?
MY COMMENT: Nope. I'm not in your Herbie church.
Steve K
DULB starts on April 1 this year? How appropriate! All Fools Day!
I'll make this final comment on this thread to say what I find to be transcendentally wonderful in what I believe:
I believe that those around me who lead wretched or meaningless lives, those out there without understanding or knowledge of what is true will yet have a chance to be a part of God's kingdom. This makes me glad, whereas my previous understanding of people in our world who haven't accepted Jesus as their personal Savior spending eternity in hell was disturbing to say the least. Things like tithing, having DUB, Day of Atonement etc. are ultra-minor issues in comparison to this one.
Northerner said...
I'll make this final comment on this thread to say what I find to be transcendentally wonderful in what I believe:
I believe that those around me who lead wretched or meaningless lives, those out there without understanding or knowledge of what is true will yet have a chance to be a part of God's kingdom.
MY COMMENT: That includes those of you who THINK you have the truth.
This makes me glad, whereas my previous understanding of people in our world who haven't accepted Jesus as their personal Savior spending eternity in hell was disturbing to say the least.
MY COMMENT: Did you REALLY believe that? I mean, deep down?
Things like tithing, having DUB, Day of Atonement etc. are ultra-minor issues in comparison to this one.
MY COMMENT: What?! I thought you Armstrongites believed that you had to have these "minor truths" in order to be saved.
Steve K
better recheck your calendar john b....
the days of unleavened bread begin at sunset on Monday, April 2....
but then, I'm sure you won't let the details get in the way ;-)
Hey Steve K, there is a new book out on Amazon written by Robert Sutton, Phd. Get it, it would be instructive for you on how not to live your life.
Cheers.
Anonymous said...
Hey Steve K, there is a new book out on Amazon written by Robert Sutton, Phd. Get it, it would be instructive for you on how not to live your life.
Cheers.
MY COMMENT: Does he promote COG dogma, as you do? How do you know how I live my life? :-)
Steve K
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