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Thursday, 21 February 2008

Journal & BAR online

The latest issue of The Journal has hit the presses, and a free download of front and back covers is available.

In a first for The Journal there's a feature on the COG fascination with the Two Witnesses by former WCG pastor Dennis Diehl - a name more than slightly familiar to AW readers ;-)

A report on the Big Sandy schism is extremely brief, but with the promise of more to come in the next issue. The suggestion is that John Warren's expulsion centered on COG-BS's sponsorship of the East Texas Women's Conference. Forget doctrine and scandal, this seems to be all about parish pump prima donnas. The 17 page (!) Connections advertising section features the usual bunch of wackos along with an occasional sane person. COGgism? Gotta love it!

Once you've cruised The Journal, you might like to cast an eye over the latest issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, which has provided free online access to all major content in its March-April Issue.

82 comments:

DennisDiehl said...

Bruce Chilton's article on "Should Palm Sunday Be Celebrated in the Fall?" is a nice admission that Gospel events are compressed to fit liturgical needs.

They also fit the astro-thelogical story of the Sun of God, i.e., the journey of the Sun through the 12 signs of the Zodiac more closely.

I believe I have said it is no concidence that the Forty Days of Lent leading up to Easter is a literalism made from the Sun's struggle to overcome February to Easter and be the Sun of God again.

In the Gospel accounts, of course, after Jesus, the SON was baptised by John the Baptist, he went immediately into the Wilderness to be tempted of Satan as he fasted for 40 days prior to crucifixion and Resurrection.

"In the Christian church, a period of penitential preparation for Easter, observed since apostolic times. Western churches once provided for a 40-day fast (excluding Sundays), in imitation of Jesus' fasting in the wilderness;"

It is NO coincidence that the literal SUN of God, leaves Aquarius, the "Waterman" in January-Feb and spends the next 40 days prior to the Spring Equinox (Easter) overcoming the darkness of winter and is tempted not to do so, by the darkness these forty days.

However, the SUN does overcome the darkness of winter, and the temptation not to do so, takes away the darkness or "sin" of the world and reaches the Crossification of the Spring Equinox (Equal days and nights) when darkness is defeated.

Easter is a defeating of the darkness by the Sun just as in the story of Jesus in Spring. The SUN then goes on to minister until reaching Transfiguration in June when it is the brightest and the days the longest (Peak of Jesus ministry when he shone like the sun on Tabor)and then it's all downhill from there into judging, betrayal, piercing and death in the grave three days before Xmas.

Sorry if this is repetative. It's simply fascinating and , to me the origins of the Old old story.

As above...so below. In the NT we see the struggle over whether Jesus literally came in the flesh, the as below part, or did not and only was a cosmic principle as Paul seems to dwell on and had no earthly presence.

I won't belabor this Spring Thing as I have spoken of it before on AW, but I HIGHLY recommend a tour through...

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm

...at this time of year, if for nothing else, then to ask if the two stories, Gospel and Solar Year are just a huge coincidence or did the sky story inform the story of Jesus as presented literally.

Rated OM (Open Minded)

Anonymous said...

Ha! Good ol' Tom Kerry. I am glad to see that he is keeping the Armstrong spirit alive and well down in NO.

Paul

Unknown said...

DennisDiehl said...

>>>Sorry if this is repetative. It's simply fascinating and , to me the origins of the Old old story.<<<

In what way is it fascinating, and to which "Old old story" are you referring?

Perhaps if you had discovered this fascination before attending AC, you might have been spared all the grief of fighting to expunge from you pure mind the doctrines of redemption, forgiveness of sin, baptism, resurrection, eternal judgement and the exceeding riches of God's grace.

Think of what peace you would have enjoyed over the years, if fate had been kind enough to lead you to this fascination! You would have been able to pass on that same enduring peace to that lady who recent asked you, what Gavin termed, "A hard question." Still, as they say, "It is better late than never." So, please continue to drink from the fountain of fascination, and in time all your concerns will be assuaged or should that be dispelled.

In time, I hope that the Delphic Oracle will judge it appropriate and fitting to repeat to you what is said to Socrates. Then we will all be able to ask you hard questions.

Lussenheide said...

Dennis Diehl's "must sing" at every Karaoke event that he ever attends...(usually, tho, after at least TWO beers!) and with 3 buttons open large collared shirt, and slight swivel hip action...

AGE OF AQUARIAS - By The 5th Dimension #1 1969

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
The Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! Aquarius!

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
The Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

"Think of what peace you would have enjoyed over the years..."


Oh yes, what a friend we have in Jebus! Let's take a look at the so-called "peace:"

1) God created a Law. If you break this Law, you are condemned to die by being thrown into a Big Lake of Fire.

2) Your ancestor, whom you have never met, also broke this Law, and the death penalty is passed on to you, free of charge.

3) If that wasn't enough, God created you with a dirty sinful nature which will always lead to Law breaking and the heaping of much death penalty on your head.

4) If you only accept this wonderful Creator and His Beloved Son as your Loving Master, He will erase this death penalty.

5) However, this is no guarantee that you will not incur the death penalty at some time in the future, so you spend the rest of your miserable dirty life constantly praying for forgiveness for breaking the Law which you can in no wise obey because God created you with a nature that cannot obey the Law.

6) Also add on the fact that this God may or may not spare you from all sorts of nasty situations from bankruptcy to rape to murder to burning car wrecks to incest to the End of the World; in fact, he may purposely put you in those situations depending upon His Plan For You.

Yes, what peace of mind we have in Jebus!

Paul

Anonymous said...

RECESSION = tough times for the Biblical Archeological Review - shifting consumer spending priorities (for things like food). Too bad.

Even tougher times for the Mormon Archeological Review. Pity, they were doing such fine work uncovering evidence for the colorful stories (sorry, revelations) by the dope smoking Joseph Smith

DennisDiehl said...

Lussenheide said:

"Dennis Diehl's "must sing" at every Karaoke event that he ever attends...(usually, tho, after at least TWO beers!) and with 3 buttons open large collared shirt, and slight swivel hip action... "

Aww Bill, I thought we had a better online relationship than that.

Tom Mahon said...

Paul said:

>>>God created you with a dirty sinful nature which will always lead to Law breaking and the heaping of much death penalty on your head.<<<

From where did you get this silly idea? Man was created perfect, but mutable. God gave him specific instructions on how to live a happy life, and warned him not to take of the tree of good and evil, else he would. Adam, influenced by his wife, as most weak men often are, disobeyed God's instructions, resulting in misery and death.

God's plan of redemption is designed to rescue some men from eternal misery, and it has nothing to do with man's ability to obey any law. The law was given so that man might recognise the wretched of his condition, and grace was given to deliver him it.

The day you come face to face with Jesus, I would hate to be there to see you beg for mercy, after having to admit you didn't know what you were talking about!

Anonymous said...

"From where did you get this silly idea?"

Romans.




Paul

Anonymous said...

"The day you come face to face with Jesus, I would hate to be there to see you beg for mercy...."

Bullshit. You would love to be there and you know it. Hypocrite! Your own imaginary Savior described you when he supposedly referred to whitewashed tombs. Typical Fundamentalist, describing the fate O' the wicked with a happy gleam in your eye all the while wringing your hands at how it troubles your loving heart to see it so!



Paul

Anonymous said...

Self Righteous Tom Moron said, "The day you come face to face with Jesus, I would hate to be there to see you beg for mercy, after having to admit you didn't know what you were talking about!"

MY COMMENT - Yeah, right. And pigs fly!

Richard

Corky said...

The day you come face to face with Jesus, I would hate to be there to see you beg for mercy

And we all know how much good it does to beg God for mercy . . . none, none whatsoever.

God was the one who supposedly put us in this "miserable condition" and then we must beg to be helped out of it?

That sounds just like a man stabbing you with a knife but if you ask real nice and love him he will give you a bandaid, otherwise he will let you bleed to death.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone received a picture of Tom?

Corky said...

God's plan:

1, He creates a man to worship him and kiss his ass 24 - 7.

2. The man disobeys God just like God knew he whould since God is all-knowing.

3. God condemns the whole race because everyone was still in this man at the time and knowing the end from the beginning, God already knew he would do this.

4. God reveals a plan of reconciliation so that man can go back to kissing his ass 24 - 7 even though God was the cause of the enmity between them to start with and he planned it that way.

5. This plan is that God himself will split into two people and have the one half die on a cross some 4,000 years later.

6. People who believe this bullshit will be saved and those who don't will be cast into the lake of fire.

Some plan!

Anonymous said...

Bruce Chilton's article on "Should Palm Sunday Be Celebrated in the Fall?" is a nice admission that Gospel events are compressed to fit liturgical needs.

It's not an "admission," it's an "assertion" or an "argument."

DennisDiehl said...

JP You're right. Picked the wrong word. I should have said "argues"
Thanks.

Baashabob said...

In a language that only Tom can understand he states: "The law was given so that man might recognise the wretched of his condition, and grace was given to deliver him it."

2 Tim.1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and love and of a sound mind.

Now let's see how he stacks up to what he claims to believe:

1. He says he would hate to be there when Paul has to beg for mercy, which implies he fears what will happen to Paul when he asks for forgiveness.

2. Any power Tom has is a figment of his imagination.

3. As shown by his statement about Paul he certainly is incapable of having, much less showing, any love for his brother Paul.

4. As shown by the quote of Tom above, he doesn't seem to have a sound mind either, as he can't even put a comprehensible sentence together.

Paul may indeed have to beg for mercy, as all of us, except Tom, will. Which brings to mind another scripture on which Tom obviously doesn't spend much time:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with HIMSELF, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all I possess.'

And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast saying, 'God be merciful to me, a sinner!'

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be abased, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Luke 18:10-14

Bob E.
"What difference does it make what you believe, if you're still a jerk?"

Anonymous said...

Self Righteous Tom Moron wrote on the BS Lemming Drive thread, "Still, according to Augustine, "God teaches some people, but deceives no one." Therefore, to the unwise, the wise are seen as arrogant.

MY COMMENT - Strange you would quote Augustine. I would have thought you would have quoted Proverbs 1:7 as the source of wisdom's foundation. You quote the words of man over the words of the Bible. No wonder you were so easily deceived by your idol HWA.

Self Righteous Tom Moron wrote:
Richard said:

>>>By the way, the reason this thread is of interest to me personally is because Dave Havir officiated my father's funeral in 1983. My father was a WCG member.<<<

Well, that does not mean that Dave Havir was ever converted. I was baptised by Arthur Suckling in 1975, and Melvin Rhodes officiated at my wedding in 1986. Both of these men are now with UCG. Need I say more?

MY COMMENT: Oh, that's right. I forgot you, Tom Moron, are the judge of a person's conversion. You know their heart and their most intimate thoughts as to whether one is "converted" or not. Typical Armstrongite self righteousness in its purest form.

Richard

        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

Anonymous said...

Ha! Good ol' Tom Kerry. I am glad to see that he is keeping the Armstrong spirit alive and well down in NO.

Paul



Would that spirit be called "hide the cash?"

Anonymous said...

"Would that spirit be called "hide the cash?""

Hide and Deny!


Paul

Anonymous said...

GRETNA MAN PLEADS GUILTY OF TO FEDERAL BANKRUPTCY FRAUD
January 23, 2008

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

THOMAS D. KERRY, age 55, a resident of Gretna, Louisiana, pled guilty today to bankruptcy fraud, announced U. S. Attorney Jim Letten.

According to documents filed in federal court, in August,2005, KERRY filed a voluntary Chapter 7 bankruptcy petition in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana, which generally liquidates a debtor’s assets to pay creditors thus giving the debtor a fresh start by discharging unsecured debts. As part of the process, KERRY signed a bankruptcy schedule, declaring under penalty of perjury that the schedules and financial statements were true, correct, and complete. KERRY also later testified under oath as to those same statements.

According to the factual basis, the Office of the United States Trustee Michael R. Bolen received information that KERRY had failed to include all of his assets in the schedules in that he concealed a money market account with a balance in excess of $50,000 which was funded from a 2004 sale of real property in Covington, Louisiana that netted KERRY approximately $154,875. The difference of approximately $100,000 has been expended by KERRY.

United States District Court Judge Helen G. Berrigan will sentence KERRY on April 30, 2008. He faces a maximum sentence of up to five (5) years in prison, a $250,000 fine, and three (3) years of supervised release.


The case was investigated by the Office of the United States Trustee with the assistance of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The prosecution is being handled by Assistant U. S. Attorney Jon Maestri.

Lussenheide said...

Dennis:

Yes we are online friends.

Yes I like you in some strange way. We probably agree on nothing, but you have a twisted sense of humor, who likes to laugh and so do I.

Please take the "Aquarius" post as a good natured "parody" or "satire" of your astrological speculations. . Much in the way all the guys would ROAST each other on the old Dean Martin comedy roasts.

It was just too ripe not to do some smart ass response to. Do not take personal, and if you step back a bit, I hope that you too can see that their is some humor there.

Luv & Peace Brother!
Bill Lussenheide , Menifee, CA USA

Lussenheide said...

INFO STRAIGHT FROM THE WEINLAND GROUP

From: Bill Lussenheide
To: thecofg@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:21 am
Subject: Johnny Harrell
To whom it may concern:

Is your US Evangelist Johnny Harrell , the same person as Johnny Robert Harrell?

Could you please provide biographical information about Mr. Harrell. Of interest is his age, work background, and religious/political history.

This will be used as press release material. Please advise.

Regards.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA

From: thecofg@aol.com
bill.lussenheide
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Johnny Harrell

Hello Bill,

This has only come to our attention concerning what someone with affiliation to Ambassador Watch wrote about Johnny Harrell, who was recently ordained as an evangelist in the Church of God - PKG. We are indeed looking into the material recently posted by this individual who is fully in error, and what he has written is fully slanderous in nature. There has certainly been no effort on their part to find anything factual about Mr. Harrell, but only a flimsy attempt to twist and distort an association with first and last names in an effort to slander the Church and Johnny Harrell, who is an evangelist in the Church.

There is absolutely no association between these two people and they are clearly different people (which wouldn't be too hard to verify if someone put the slightest effort into their fact gathering). Johnny Harrell has been in the construction business for 30 years with his own company in the construction of homes in the Macon, GA area. He has no political background at all and was a member of the Worldwide Church of God for many years before that church organization moved away from the teachings it had embraced for decades. Mr. Harrell then associated himself with the current Church of God organization that splintered from the WCG in 1995.

We would like to receive information from you as to what organization you represent and if you have any association with Ambassador Watch. What organization is responsible for such a press release and what is its purpose?

We await your reply,
the Church of God - PKG

2-21-08 To The COGFG@aol.com

To Whom It May Concern:

Ambassador Watch is a blog. It is open to the public for posts. I have written to you for clarification as to who your Evangelist Johnny Harrell is.

No one at Ambassador Watch has stated that the specific Johnny Harrell that is in your church, is guilty of anything or specifically has any connections or implications.

However, as was demonstrated at the site, there is indeed MUCH written about a Johnny Harrell on the internet (websites quoted at the site) , who is an individual who clearly has militia, and paramiltary connections, as well as End Time apocalyptic visions. These websites are not connected to anyone at Ambassador Watch, or the COG community.

I write, as a member of the general COG, in good standing and reputation, that is held in high regard by many in the online COG community. Thank you for your response, and I will be sure that your information provided will be posted widely for clarification purposes in regards to your specific Johnny Harrell, and his lack of connection to the Johnny Harrell that is found researching the internet.

Regards
Bill Lussenheide

DennisDiehl said...

Luss...People don't have to agree to be friends. That's a misconception for the old days. A good roasting is probably good for my soul.

Of course, some would say that a good roasting is what my soul is going to get. If I was genuinely worred, I'd genuinely do something.

In my experience, it's the most sensitive who, when hurt, dig deeper to find out what went wrong and why.

At any rate. Thanks for the comment. I take it as you meant it.
:)

Anonymous said...

The COGFG wrote to the Lussenheide:

"We are indeed looking into the material recently posted by this individual who is fully in error, and what he has written is fully slanderous in nature. There has certainly been no effort on their part to find anything factual about Mr. Harrell, but only a flimsy attempt to twist and distort an association with first and last names in an effort to slander the Church and Johnny Harrell, who is an evangelist in the Church."

Yikes! They sure are sensitive. AFAIK, the Lus was only trying to determine facts.

Speaking of "sensitive"....
DD wrote:

"In my experience, it's the most sensitive who, when hurt, dig deeper to find out what went wrong and why."

Well, the cofg could use a shovel, alright...because there's sure something piled high there!

Hmmm...the Church Of the Farting Gloryboys didn't mention the middle name of THEIR Johnny-on-the-Spot.

Byker Bob said...

It's good that Bill did what most of us probably could not.

Since COG members in times past actually have become members of the Christian Patriot Movement, there was indeed precedent, and the questions which were raised based on name similarity were quite legitimate.

Of course, with Weinland's response, it appears that the conclusions drawn by whoever first connected the names would not be unlike assuming that RCG David Pack had actually at one time been the leader of the elevator rock group "Air Supply".

The assumption might now become that everyone should be relieved by Weinland's response. Should we feel relieved? Seems to me there still is an awfully big element of weirdness. I don't believe that the militia was the only reason for concern here.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Oops, sorry. My bad. Pack was the leader of Ambrosia! Obviously, since neither group did any ass-kicking rock'n roll or barn-burning Country Western, I really can't be expected to know much about them!

BB

Corky said...

Can you imagine someone killing themself over Armstrongite doctrines? How about killing other people because of it? How about killing other people and then themselves over Armstrongite doctrine?

It has happened and it has happened more than once.

Tom talks of HWA as a prophet of God and a minister of the gospel but fails to see that the fruits are not there. In fact, the only fruits of Armstrongism is shown by many testimonies to be all bad.

Fear, anguish, poverty, suicide, murder, child abuse, spousal abuse, guilt, inferiority complexes, hate, arrogance, pride, adultery, unnecessary deaths, unlawful divorces, and . . . how many more can you think of?

Nightmares, flashbacks, doubt, alcoholism, quack medicine, uncaring ministers, scientific ignorance . . . I believe the list could go on and on about the drawbacks of Armstrongism, what do you believe?

Anonymous said...

'And we all know how much good it does to beg God for mercy . . . none, none whatsoever'

I forget who said this. But how sad! We don't beg. We get back in harmony with Him and receive mercy by the spadefuls. 'Go and sin no more'

Tom Mahon said...

Paul said:

TOM>>>"The day you come face to face with Jesus, I would hate to be there to see you beg for mercy...."<<<

>>>Bullshit.<<<

This is a public forum, so please be careful with your diction. "Nonsense," would not have been vulgar.

Paul>>>You would love to be there and you know it. Hypocrite!<<<

Actually, won't, you may be disappointed to learn! "For it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God," and "knowing the terror of the Lord, I persuade men," is Paul,s admonition to those who scoff at the things of God.

Tom Mahon said...

Corky said...

>>>Tom talks of HWA as a prophet of God and a minister of the gospel but fails to see that the fruits are not there.<<<

I along with others were called by God as a direct result of HWA preaching the gospel. So no one can you persuade me that HWA was not a servant of God.

However, there are many parables that teach, where righteousness is evil is there too. Lots of people were planted in WCG by Satan. His purpose was to undermine the peace and unity of the church, by planting false ministers amongst God's faithful flock. By flattery and stealth, these false ministers, whose god was their belly, and whose glory is their shame, got into positions of power and they abused the flock for the sake of "filthy lucre." But they were not converted.

The presence of and problems with false ministers and brethren are not new. The Apostle Paul had problems with false ministers in various churches under his dispensation, and he was accused by some of being in it for the money. He was also forsaken and betrayed by false ministers. Note his final words to Timothy: "Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world.." And later, "At my first answer" (that is, before Caesar)"no man stood with me, but all men forsook me.."

Paul, please note what he said: "I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge." The great Apostle had no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I suppose you will also accuse Paul of hypocrisy?

So, it is not surprising that HWA was surrounded by false ministers and brethren, who are now reviling him.

DennisDiehl said...

"Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world.." And later, "At my first answer" (that is, before Caesar)"no man stood with me, but all men forsook me.."

Of course, we don't have the other side of the story here. I wonder what Demas and "ALL MEN" would say about why they couldn't abide the man anymore.

Paul was evidently not the most likeable person himself. Four times in the NT he is forced to say "I lie not" because he was often accused of lying about something and it seems to have been connected to either his credentials or experiences he said he had that some doubted. Some of it was connected to the idea of "I really am an Apostle, honest I am."

In the NT, we only hear from those that got to write the text. How nice it would have been to know why Paul got left alone by all.

Was his personality too much to take?

Was his idea of himself to inflated?

Was he too independent of the origins of the Jerusalem leadership?

Was he duplistic in his "all things to all men" game?

Were his sermons to full of himself and too long?

Was his failure to quote Jesus real life, teachings, healings or example a bit too much for the group?

Did time not really being short become too evident?

Did the young single people who postponed their lives and relationships due to his sense of the return of the Cosmic Christ finally catch on to his being wrong?

Did they notice Jesus teachings on marriage and Paul's were opposite and that Paul seemed to feel avoiding fornication was the highest reason for relationships?

Did Gamaliel tell someone, "Saul who?"

There are reasons why the entire office staff and church leaves the leader that may not fairly be expressed by the leader himself.

Good reasons...

DennisDiehl said...

An example from Church History on one sided explanations for uncomfortable criticism.

"All through the Third Century there is repeated mention of this (Apollonius' teachings). But it was not until Hierocles in the beginning of the Fourth Century boldly charged upon the Christian priesthood their plagiarism of the teachings and works of Apollonius, that the latter found it necessary to set every means at work that could in any way help to conceal the great truth that Hierocles proclaimed with such portentous force.

It was true that no one knows exactly what it was that Hierocles wrote, for Eusebius, who took upon himself the task of destroying the testimony of Hierocles, took precious good care to destroy the work of his formidable opponent, and AND GIVE HIS OWN VERSION OF THE MATTER INSTEAD. (empahsis mine)

The reply of Eusebius to Hierocles has come down to us. Why has not Hierocles' arraignments of the Christian priesthood also come down to us? Let that priesthood answer." (J. M. Roberts -- Antiquity Unveiled)

Anonymous said...

Has anyone received a picture of Tom?

Byker Bob said...

Tom,

HWA was not only surrounded by false teachers (many of them his yes men), HWA WAS a false teacher. He did not have the faintest grasp of the New Covenant.

You say you were called to God's truth through the works of HWA. I'm not trying to go shot for shot with you here, but I believe that God, in His infinite mercy, came back for me and drew me to Him in spite of the horrible toxic faith and abuse that HWA introduced into my life. And this, after thirty years of my being one of the spiritually homeless.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Dennis,

I have to ask this, because I'm not familiar with the materials which you quoted. This Apollonius whom Eusebius sought to blot out, would that be the Apollonius of Tyana whom some have speculated was a prototype for Jesus? Surely all of us have read by now the speculation that there was no Jesus, but that a legend was created based on Apollonius of Tyana, and this legendary character was renamed Jesus, and his fame and miracles were widely disseminated by the proto-Catholics. Supposedly this became the basis for Catholicism, and by way of revisionism, also the Protestant religions.

It seems that a number of teachers suffered this "blotting out" during the dawn of Christianity. Simon Magus, a gnostic, had all but a few paragraphs of his writing destroyed. He's another character about whom many have speculated.

BB

DennisDiehl said...

Hi BB,

Here is a site on Appollonius of Tyanna.

http://www.geocities.com/nephilimnot/apollonius_of_tyanna.html

There is a lot on "Pol" who remains mostly unknown to most.

Anonymous said...

"Paul, please note what he said: "I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge." The great Apostle had no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I suppose you will also accuse Paul of hypocrisy?"

No, but I'll accuse you again- Hypocrite! Notice that Paul prayed that someone would not receive the penalty even though they had rightfully incurred the penalty. You, on the other hand, harbor no such sentiments. You would say, "I pray God that they repent when God rightfully punishes them for the charge that they have incurred due to their wickedness."

Tom, you should be very glad that your God isn't real.

Paul

Baashabob said...

"So no one can you persuade me that HWA was not a servant of God."

Another grammatically incomprehensible pronouncement from the Apostle Tom!

-=-=-
... The problem lies not with those who are mad and know it, but with those who are mad and don't know it.
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org

Anonymous said...


Weinland Watch is not affiliated with Ambassador Watch in any way, other than remarks I have made on the public comments section of the site.


As I stated on the other thread where Bill posted the results of his letter-writing to the CoG-PKG:

I never stated outright that Harrell had links to those groups; I always speculated that he might and asked if he did, which CoG-PKG could have emailed me about at any time (the email address for WW is pretty much plastered in six-foot-high letters across the "About" page").

Interesting to note that the well-established home construction business in Macon, GA, is not as easily findable, at least on a cursory search, as the information about one "Johnny Harrell".

The keen observer will also recognize the fact that they say nothing at all about Matthews, who has definitively been tied to Anglo-Israelism, as recently as 1998.

Weinland himself preaches about US&BC in the latest sermon posted to the website, "45 Days to the Seventh Seal" (assuming they don't edit that part out after this).

Anglo-Israelism gave the initial "push" to many CoG splinters, as well as to several christian identity and militia groups.

If the CoG-PKG does not want to draw undue attention or potentially awkward speculation to itself, it should not be promoting US&BC as the lost tribes of Israel.


I stand by these remarks.

Byker Bob says:


"The assumption might now become that everyone should be relieved by Weinland's response. Should we feel relieved? Seems to me there still is an awfully big element of weirdness. I don't believe that the militia was the only reason for concern here."


Correct. There is still a lot of weirdness about the CoG-PKG, not the least of which is the fact that Weinland seems to genuinely believe what he is preaching (as a brief listen to any of his sermons will indicate).

Bob also said:
"Of course, with Weinland's response, it appears that the conclusions drawn by whoever first connected the names would not be unlike assuming that RCG David Pack had actually at one time been the leader of the elevator rock group "Air Supply"."

Agreed. I am trying to provide a cautionary word of warning to any who might have friends and family members in the CoG-PKG, that things seem slightly amiss. I am trying to do this in as clear, rational, and unimpeachable a manner as I can.

I never made a solid "connection" between the two Harrells, I just asked if there was any connection, and further information seems to indicate that, even if it is the same Johnny Harrell (CoG-PKG has not revealed his middle name), he may no longer have evidentiary ties to the CCA, CPDL, and the CEDS.

Weinland, however, actively preaches US&BC. Matthews has been definitively linked to Anglo-Israelism doctrines.

Just because Harrell no longer has self-evident ties to christian identity groups, does not mean definitively that he did not.

So things stand at a stalemate at the moment: I can't prove any links between Weinland's evangelist Harrell and Christian Identity, and the CoG-PKG has not, as of yet, provided reliable evidence that there are none.

I also refuse to take the CoG-PKG's assertion that he's a home-builder in Macon, Georgia, as unimpeachable fact, until I have found verification for myself.

I am trying to maintain credibility here. I have cautioned people, both on WW and elsewhere, and I do so now, and here, publicly, that if their friends or family members are involved in Weinland's group, they need to get some advice from qualified exit counsellors.

Lussenheide said...

Weinland Watch and all:

Weinland IS dangerous.

Read page 101-103 of his book "God's Final Witness".
He claims that the KILLING of COG leaders is one of his "own choosing", that God has granted this to him according to God's will.

I say that such a nut is a potential menace, and in my opinion , that these statement constitute, in effect, murder threats!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

DennisDiehl said...

I wonder how Apostle Pack's brethren feel about sending him their 401K's and bucks for the "Clarion Call" of the end time work, only now to find he now has the money to build a Headquarters, brand new, (God would not have us do the work from someone elses second floor building,) Tv studio, Auditorium "maybe even a small sports complex."

Dave is recreating WCG 1968-72 on the bucks sent to "finish the work." Of course, now the brethren are tapped out, so we'll see how he squeezes them even harder in the future.

He'll be busy impressing himself for the next ten years, so he's safe.

Anonymous said...

Here is the exact quote to which Bill refers:


"#5 The Fifth Thunder is death."
------------------
"This Fifth Thunder is divided into three specific phases of death. (1) The first phase is death within the Church of God that was scattered. It will be specifically about a marked increase in the death of its leadership (the ministry).
-----------------------
"(1) This first phase of this Fifth Thunder has already begun in a very small way upon the Church of God that was scattered, after the prophesied apostasy (2 Thes.).
----------------------
"This phase of the Fifth Thunder is one of my own choosing, which God has granted me as part of His own will and purpose for the Church (this will be clarified more fully in the Sixth Thunder). The method of this one last great chastening, that is for the purpose of helping to awaken some from the spiritual coma they are in, is one that God has left for me to determine as one of His end-time witnesses, who will be given far greater power to pronounce plagues “as often as they will” (Revelation 11:6) in order to help humble mankind so they will repent and turn to God."


As with Weinland's proclamation that Satan will be powerfully influencing "a great religious leader" 25 days from now, he is just vague enough that these statements cannot be "interpreted" clearly.

Therefore I do not believe that this indicates Weinland is in any way making "threats" against the various splinter leaders.

I would also respectfully suggest that not everyone who comes onboard with Weinland Watch does so for purely compassionate reasons.

Indeed, I have one "supporter", from another forum, who appears to be using Weinland Watch to fuel their own evangelical Christian agenda.

I do not endorse this, nor do I believe it is ethical to use my cautionary expose of the CoG-PKG for any purposes other than bringing some of the more questionable characteristics of the church into the light and to spread the word about this closed high-demand religious group. (All of the CoGs fit this description, in my opinion.)

Anonymous said...

Tom Mahon said...

"I along with others were called by God as a direct result of HWA preaching the gospel. So no one can you persuade me that HWA was not a servant of God."

I whole heartedly agree with Tom's statement. God certainly did use HWA.

Anonymous said...

"I whole heartedly agree with Tom's statement. God certainly did use HWA."

Who in turn passed it on and used others.

Anonymous said...

Hey. God used the devil, too. That doesn't mean we should listen to Satan's preaching!

Anonymous said...

DennisDiehl said...
'"Demas has forsaken me, "

Of course, we don't have the other side of the story here'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wonder if Paul , the genius who started Christianity, was originally nothing more than a loner living in a rented room somewhere in downtown Jerusalem ?

Byker Bob said...

Let's assume for the moment that a well known "militia" figure "repented", and joined an ACOG. How would he be handled? How would his talents and resources be used? Would the so-called leader of the ACOG reveal the man's past, or would that be privileged?

The whole thing would need to be invisible! ACOG ethics universally use the paradigm "the end justifies the means". HWA once remarked that he would lie, cheat, steal, or do anything else he deemed necessary to get out the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't believe in slander, and I doubt that anyone else here does, either. But, I've simply seen too much. HWA and most of his little trainees and sychophants were totally devoid of ethics. Nothing any of HWA's franchisees would do could possibly surprise me! If HWA could meet and have a photo op with Idi Amin Dada, who drank the blood of white settlers during the Mau Mau uprising in Africa, would an HWA clone get in bed with a militia leader?

BB

Corky said...

Why does everyone think that God needs to "humble" mankind? Mankind is already so humbled that it is willing to worship gods instead of recognizing that mankind is the only ones who have ever accomplished anything worthwhile in this world.

Everyone already feels, from being bible thumped, that they are "not quite good enough". How much more humble can you get?

What does religion do other than create hatred and division?

Individually, one may get the "warm fuzzies" or a feeling of love and comfort and fellowship amongst "believers" but it is all emotion and nothing but emotion.

There would be absolutely no reason for a person to have to believe certain doctrines in order to be counted "righteous". A person is either a good person or a bad person - period. Beliefs cannot make a good person bad or a bad person good.

There is no "plan of salvation". If there's a God with a sovereign will, it's a guarantee.

Anonymous said...

"The reply of Eusebius to Hierocles has come down to us. Why has not Hierocles' arraignments of the Christian priesthood also come down to us? Let that priesthood answer." (J. M. Roberts -- Antiquity Unveiled)"

More dirty Christian tactics:
Eusebius also tried to suppress the intellectual Porphyry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_%28philosopher%29#Adversus_Christianos

Anonymous said...

Dennis Diehl wrote, "I wonder how Apostle Pack's brethren feel about sending him their 401K's and bucks for the "Clarion Call" of the end time work, only now to find he now has the money to build a Headquarters, brand new, (God would not have us do the work from someone elses second floor building,) Tv studio, Auditorium "maybe even a small sports complex."

Dave is recreating WCG 1968-72 on the bucks sent to "finish the work." Of course, now the brethren are tapped out, so we'll see how he squeezes them even harder in the future.

He'll be busy impressing himself for the next ten years, so he's safe".

MY COMMENT - WCG history seems to be repeating itself. The extortion tactics used on the brethren during 1968 - 72 were severe and borderline thuggery. People were told to go out and obtain second mortgages on their homes and send the proceeds into headquarters for the final push. People were told to forego health needs to finance the work. Peoples' personal salvation were linked with the amount of "giving" to WCG - remember "God's way is GIVE" as HWA would frequently remind us.

What we didn't know was how the money was being used. The corruption, greed and theft in 1968 - 72 WCG was enormous. For example, the GTA $50,000 gambling debt in Las Vegas. My brother, who stayed much longer in the Church than I did told me he had a contact in WCG Pasadena Accounting Department, who confirms that member tithes were used to pay the gambling debt. This is just one example. You can probably bet Dorothy was paid off with hush money to stay silent about the HWA incest somewhere in this timeframe. I am aware of a property bought for her paid by tithes and offerings of the brethren.

In retrospect, whenever I think of that time period, 1968 -72, it turns my stomach now - the corruption, creed, theft - all in God's name. I still remember as a young teen the trauma of looking out my house window on cold winter nights during the first week of January , 1972 - looking for the German attack on America in my own neighborhood and on my street just as I heard repetitively by WCG ministers and Armstrong himself since 1968. Boy, was I ever STUPID.

When I look back on 1968 -72 WCG, the words "fraud, big hoax, liars" all come to mind. Perhaps there will someday be a young teen from Dave Pack's fraudulent church who will someday say the same thing about Pack's religious business.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Hopefully after April passes without incident Weinland's flock will say the same thing. If they're around to say it.

Through all of the prophecy and misdirected funds and ministry misanthropy, it is clear that none of Worldwide's leaders really truly drank their own Kool-Aid.

Of those splinters which have existed, currently exist, and will exist, the only ones that have done the most irreparable harm, are the ones that have had true believers in Armstrongism at their helms.

Tom Mahon said...

Richard agonises over:

>>>What we didn't know was how the money was being used.<<<

At that time you didn't have much to give, so the "we" might be referring to your parents.

>>>The corruption, greed and theft in 1968 - 72 WCG was enormous. For example, the GTA $50,000 gambling debt in Las Vegas.<<<

No one can excused or justify GTA's behaviour. The people who were responsible for ensuring that the church's finances were not misused, acquiesced in covering up the abuses, this may have included HWA out of loyalty to his son.

>>>You can probably bet Dorothy was paid off with hush money to stay silent about the HWA incest somewhere in this timeframe.<<<

This, of course, is pure speculation!

>>>I am aware of a property bought for her paid by tithes and offerings of the brethren.<<<

Everything that the church bought was paid for out of tithes and offerings, as the church had no other income. I don't think it was a crime to buy a house the lady, if your assertion is true, as the same was done for ministers who have subsequently proved unworthy of living even on the streets!

The personal question you have not asked is, does anybody's sin or bad behaviour undermines the teachings of Jesus and God's promise of eternal life to his children? God forbid! What has happened in the church is confirmation of the teachings of the bible.

The tragedy for you and many who post here, is that you are all being consumed by anger and bitterness. But then I am only a moron!

Anonymous said...

A good example is ignored and falls short; a bad example is rich with emulators of every stripe to wreck people's lives in ways that transcend understanding: Because people with bad behavior oft have enormous resources derived from manipulating victims to support them as high maintenance, the foolish emulated them in their ignorance believing with blind stupid faith that they can achieve the same results, not realizing that their faulty distorted perceptions will end in unmitigated disasters.

Anonymous said...

But then I am only a moron!

Hardly anyone at this forum will disagree, except that perhaps fool may more appropriately apply.

Here is a person baptized in 1975, not having accepted the nuttiness of Herbert Armstrong for many years after first coming into contact with "The Work". By that time, it should have been abundantly clear that Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet, even if, one did not know that he predicted publicly that the United States and Britain would lose World War II as late as 1943. There are still audio recordings of Herbert Armstrong boasting, "You'll see these things come to pass, then you'll see who is the false prophet!". Not in his lifetime.

At the end of 1975, my wife and I looked at each other in church and knew what the other was thinking: "Shoot, what'll we do now?". Herbert Armstrong vigorously set dates, and as Richard pointed out, people were told to go out and obtain second mortgages on their homes and send the proceeds into headquarters for the final push; people were told to forego health needs to finance the work. It is also the case that Herbert Armstrong began the push to build more on the Pasadena Campus and set up to build the House for God, at a time we were all supposed to flee to a place of safety.

In recent times, I have asked many active ministers about the false prophecies and they don't have an answer. Herbert Armstrong set dates. He prophesied, not only by making specific predictions within specific timeframes, but signing the lies,"In Jesus' Name". This was blasphemy and idolatry at its worst. That it was used to Garner tithes for Ted to pay gambling debts is simply icing on the cake. There were far worse problems.

Herbert Armstrong was, if anything, manic: He'd go off to spend $68,000 at Harrod's in one day because HE JUST HAD TO HAVE GOLD AND SILVER TABLEWARE TO DO THE WORK and then send out a coworker letter to stir up those with little resources to pay for his profligate prodigal spending. The WORK WAS COMING TO AN END. Never mind the promises that Jesus would be with us to the end and that God would provide. It was like Herbert Armstrong realized just what he did in retrospect and panicked that he couldn't cover it up fast enough.

It's hard to say what Tom Moran gets out of this, or any Armstrongist for that matter. It is suspicious that he keeps mentioning that Herbert Armstrong was responsible for his conversion and so by admitting that Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet, he risks actually facing up to the fact that he isn't converted, as his behavior here so amply demonstrates objectively to the majority of people here of every stripe from the godly to the atheist. Anyone who has that sort of opposition ought to begin to look at just how silly they really are.

The other thing that he might get out of it is a sense of grandiosity by living Herbert Armstrong's life vicariously through proxy. That's the reason why we see such people as Roderick Meredith, Gerald Flurry and David Pack do what they do and the minor leaguers want to see themselves as winners as they live their pathetic lives of noisy desperation.

In the end, it's like trying to pay off your credit cards by using other credit cards: There's no reality to it and in the end, eventually, the whole thing will collapse, at which time those engaging in the practice will have to face painful realities, when they could have faced them early on and prevented the more massive tragedy later.

Neotherm said...

Tom wrote: "The personal question you have not asked is, does anybody's sin or bad behaviour undermine the teachings of Jesus and God's promise of eternal life to his children?"

Of course. Paul admonished first century church members that the name of God was blasphemed among Gentiles because of some of their practices. Clearly, Paul thought the teachings of Jesus were undermined. We are not to even give the appearance of evil for fear of impeding the spread of the Gospel which is, after all, what the Christian church is all about.

Does anybody's sin undermine God's promise of eternal life to his children. Of course. It depends on what that sin is. If adultery, it probably does not. But if it is the sin of heresy, it most certainly does. God's promise is still there, but heresy will interdict the access to that promise.

HWA ran a Jesus Plus cult. This is the idea that in addition to Christ's sacrifice, works must also be accomplished to receive salvation. This is clearly at odds with what the Bible states. Works do not produce salvation, they are rather a product of salvation.

HWA and his minions had it all wrong. One may argue that they really believed that Jesus was the one and only source of salvation, but this argument is easily invalidated. Ask any Armstrongite what would happen to them if they decided to discontinue ritualistic Sabbath observance. The answer is simple: the abstainer would lose salvation.

So it requires the sacrifice of Jesus plus Sabbath observance (and other works) for salvation to happen. In other words, Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient for salvation. To be sure, God expects a certain behavior of Christians (detailed in the Sermon on the Mount) but this behavior is not a cause of salvation but a symptom of salvation.

One may argue that the action of the Holy Spirit induces Sabbath observance. Therefore, it, too, is a symptom of salvation. (But this has never been how Armstrongites couch Sabbath observance.) To counter this mistaken argument we must get into the more exegetical, theological reasons why Sabbath Keeping is an Old Covenant ritual.

No doubt throughout history there have been organizations that felt that the works of the Old Covenant must be carried over and made a part of salavation. I can think of one branch of the Plymouth Brethren that came to this conclusion. But with the presence of the Holy Spirit, this error yields to good exegesis.

HWA developed a modern day Talmud because he wanted to control people's lives -- from how your spent your money to the food on your plate. Did he do it for personal reasons or did he think that this was the actual implementation of Christianity? Based on the fruits of his life in other areas, my guess is that he did this to control other people. But God is his judge, not me.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

Those here who are smarter than I am -- both of you -- can correct me if I am wrong, but it just seems to me that the product of repentance and conversion is accepting [and seeking] correction. Isn't the whole point making changes in your life? And to do that, you'd have to admit that the current practices are less than productive.

Even in business, it is easy to observe people who do accept any criticism: They have the very worst judgment of any one. In one case, a member of several international business organizations, president of one of them, a man with a PhD highly respected for intelligence, gave away $350,000 to a vendor because he didn't see a need to hold the vendor accountable and wrote off the debt without so much as "by your leave". Eventually, the company fired him outright, but not before the $85 million project he was working on collapsed.

It is my belief that the reason that we see in The Journal "Connections advertising section features the usual bunch of wackos along with an occasional sane person" [who would have to be actively pointed out, considering] is just because people have very poor judgment through the fault that they neither accept nor seek correction.

The Armstrongists came from the whole rich cloth of Herbert Armstrong's stubborn refusal to accept correction. Cowards were afraid to stand up to his obvious foolishness -- the hirelings were afraid of job loss and the victims of the environment were afraid of the lake of fire -- to put the fool in his place. He'd yell and shout and shake his jowls, accusing, threating anyone who had the audacity to oppose his silly opinions raised to doctrine. [Tkach had him beat in the yelling department after a poor woman victim was subjected to 5 hours of his abuse and was never the same afterward. Tkach was another one with terrible judgment.] Makeup bad. Anglo Israelism good. Sexism, racism good. Equality and service bad. Pentecost on Monday good. Pentecost on Monday bad.

Like a child in an adult body, Herbert Armstrong enforced his eccentricities upon anyone who would accept his "authority" based upon mostly mere personality and narcissism. In all of this, it's difficult to imagine a humble servant seeking the Will of God, let alone a man deeply converted: Just when did Herbert Armstrong accept any kind of challenge to his "wisdom" unless superior force was employed [and most of that after public exposure]? Recalcitrance does not inspire a vision of conversion in his case.

In some cases, people have been saved from dying from cancer and other malignant diseases because they caught it in time for treatment.

Then there are those who were in denial and died.

Is it any wonder then, the xCoGs are dying off? It is a product of their carrying on the heritage of poor judgment resulting from resistance to change and a lack of accepting correction. The short version: They don't listen -- they are fools.

Byker Bob said...

Good, accurate dissertation, Neo!

I've long argued that HWA presented his version of the gospel in such a way as to make it either difficult to accept, or absolutely abhorent. In practical application, the chief role of the Holy Spirit in Armstrong's church was to open or cause the human mind with any common sense, to accept and agree with ridiculous, self-destructive beliefs and practices. Of course, since the Holy Spirit would never be involved in that type of activity, and does not work that way, it's quite obvious that He was not involved in HWA's church in the first place.

The so-called bitterness, expressed on other websites, is Armstrong's legacy. A legacy of spiritual rape at worst, or, being kind, of a job poorly done. The good news is that God can and does really heal people of this legacy. And this time around, people really do get to have Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in their lives. All a person needs to do is sincerely ask.

BB

Neotherm said...

To Tired Skeptic:

You make some very good observations and I would like to add a couple of ideas:

1) On accepting correction: I believe that HWA was a contrarian. He looked into the Bible and, lo and behold, he found something totally at odds with mainstream Christianity. There are people who pride themselves in being different and poking fun at the big guys of religion--people who are little want to feel big. A bone may be thrown to self-correction, but it is never really in the game.

2) The Holy Spirit is real and it has a real impact on people's lives. The fruit of the spirit is cataloged in the epistles of Paul. When I was around many of the Armstrongite leaders in Big Sandy, I never felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. (As a Quaker this makes perfect sense to me but others may have a question.) I mostly felt authoritarianism, egocentrism and an desire to intimidate. I never felt that I was dealing with people who were led by the Holy Spirit. The problems at Big Sandy were legendary. The wave of egocentrism that hit you when you entered faculty dining was like a tsunami.

These authoritarians (commanders not leaders) will tell you that their authoritarian behavior is based on the idea of "standing strong for God and his Law." That is just a red herring. How does "standing strong for God" obviate love? It doesn't and they were "standing strong" for themselves.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

Neotherm,

And I couldn't agree more with your assessment. In fact, point #1 is rich with detail: Herbert Armstrong always wanted to be the "big man" [and he was, but only in the roly-poly sense sense of having enough girth to be both of the two witnesses combined into one]. He prided himself on winning arguments and boasting in his autobiography about making people "eat their words". He wanted revenge to be proved right. Being a chancellor of a college when he had no more than an eighth grade education is the ultimate for such a person.

By being contrarian, he had the option of not just being someone but being superior by being different. To be better than others was his goal. He certainly had his pride.

As for point #2, there are also the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like. I've seen your postings and it is quite apparent to me that you experienced that at Big Sandy campus -- as have others of my acquaintance. In fact, so little of the fruit of the spirit seemed to present that one would need some sort of quantum detector to measure it, if it existed.

The problem extends to so many just like a poisoned spring. The stress of having to live in a dysfunctional environment unable to measure up to its promises because it did not have the appropriate spiritual resources drove people to do things which, under normal circumstances, would be abhorrent, but because of the venue became a matter of practice to attempt to live up to the magnitude of the lies.

Tom Mahon said...

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>It is suspicious that he keeps mentioning that Herbert Armstrong was responsible for his conversion..<<

If you are going to quote me, please try to be accurate. For I have never said that HWA was responsible for my conversion. I said that God called me as a result of HWA preaching the gospel.

I may be a fool, but I not so foolish not know that God is responsible for the calling, repentance and conversion of his children.

BTW, the rest of the contents of your post, indicate that you went to the keyboard and stated typing without thinking. So as soon as you are able to focus on the topic under discussion, instead of digressing to mention unrelated matters; and to marshal a logical and coherent argument against the ideas I have posited, then, they my be scope for a meaningful discussion. But I am not holding my breath!

Anonymous said...

Yet another example of poor judgment because of a rejection of correction.

One should bring forth fruit of repentance before expecting to be considered godly.

Making empty statements and threats do not make them so particularly when the facts are unanswerable: When a person can't answer, the best thing to do is to perform a magic act of deception to ignore them so they won't have any affect in causing them to the truth: Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet and there's no magic which can make that go away. Yet, the author of this supercilious rubbish wants all of us to ignore the facts, but impeaches his own false prophet and attempts to distance himself from obvious cognitive dissonance. None of us here are fooled by this foolishness, but it is instructive to observe the methodology for future reference. Particularly interesting is the stupid proposition that it was merciful for Herbert Armstrong to pay GTA gambling debts. God wouldn't do it. If Jesus Christ gambled away $50,000 in Reno, wouldn't God make him face up to the consequences? Or is there so little knowledge of God that a person wouldn't know?

If you are going to quote me, please try to be accurate.

Why bother to play the games of a gamesplaying psychopathic hypocrite who doesn't even keep his own rules... the paraphrase was close enough....

Tom Mahon said...

Neotherm said...

>>>Tom wrote: "The personal question you have not asked is, does anybody's sin or bad behaviour undermine the teachings of Jesus and God's promise of eternal life to his children?"

>>>Of course. Paul admonished first century church members that the name of God was blasphemed among Gentiles because of some of their practices.<<<

Firstly, unlike TS you are at least trying to stick to the subject. However, the argument you are making is against something I did not say. Paul told the Jews in the church at Rome, that boasting about the law while breaking the law dishonours God; and as a consequence, the name of God was blasphemed among the Gentiles because of them. This is similar to what Nathan told David, after his seduction of Bathsheba and the murder of her husband. The words of Nathan are these: Howbeit, because of this deed thou has given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme." So both Nathan and Paul are saying, that the sins and bad behaviour of Christians can lead to non-Christians dishonouring God.

But it does not say that the sin or behaviour of anyone can undermine the teachings of Christ or the promises of God. On the contrary, Jesus taught, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled," and Paul was inspired to write: "For all the promises of God in Him are yes."

So whether it was GTA, HWA or any other creature that misbehaved, the teachings of Christ and the promises of God remain steadfast.

Anonymous said...

Relentless Pursuit

Even amidst revisionist history in the form of "I never said that" [and of course the "I never said that" was never directly said, just stated in various forms], there is progress as yard by yard, foot by foot, inch by inch, millimeter by millimeter, Tom must continue to compromise his position to lose more and more ground. He started out, as everyone well remembers, staunchly supporting Herbert Armstrong. Little by little, he's had to divorce himself further and further from the loser false prophet end time apostle: This forum has had an impact. One could hope that the correction can take hold and repentance would ensue, but I'm not holding my breath because, just like anyone else, I would turn blue and pass out.

This is all on topic because the issue is The Journal with all its nutty contributors and an occasional sane person. Pursuing the reason why things are the way they are: Just how did people get so obsessed on the Two Witnesses or divisions within a CoG?

The answer seems like it should be clear enough: Armstrongism is about Herbert Armstrong. Pretty much everything associated with him ends up as really bad fruit. Pretty much.

Discovery of the core of the real problem can be used to bring an explanation to those seeking it with resolution, closure and finally, peace.

Oh, and besides, the Biblical Archaelogy Review is interesting too, what with the discussion of Jezebel's seal and all.

Anonymous said...

So whether it was GTA, HWA or any other creature that misbehaved, the teachings of Christ and the promises of God remain steadfast.

Just not among those who were so warped by Herbert Armstrong and what he created who came as believers and left as atheists, which certainly does not excuse GTA, HWA or any other creature that misbehaved.

But then, this is soooooo off topic.

Corky said...

Tom Mahon said...
Jesus taught, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled,"

But it all was fulfilled:

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Byker Bob said...

Speaking of the Apostle Paul, I've been studying 1 Corinthians 12-16 today. Paul stated that amongst the gifts of the Holy Spirit, love was the highest on the hierarchy.

He also stated that he wished more of the brethren had the gift of prophecy, because prophecy was a church builder. Even so, prophecy without love was of no value, according to Paul.

I just couldn't help but wonder what might have happened if Paul had come into the AC gym one sabbath, like an angel unawares, oh, say about 1966. He probably would have totally freaked! Because, standing right in front of him, speaking in a big booming radio voice, would have been this little white haired false prophet, with NO love whatsoever, using the false prophecy to extract whatever little amounts of disposable cash his followers had left after the false tithing teachings had taken the rest.

Shoot, we would have been better off going over to GTA's house for a poker game. We know that GTA did have an occasional bad night gambling, so we would have had a fighting chance to keep some of our money!

BB
He prob

Anonymous said...

"Paul stated that amongst the gifts of the Holy Spirit, love was the highest on the hierarchy."

Yes, but according to Armstrongism, what is the definition of love? Keeping God's commandments. Therefore, if you are keeping the Holy Days and the Sabbath and refraining from unclean meat, you have "love." This is the primary reason why many Armstrongites are callous, cold, and unfeeling towards humanity in general. This loophole gave the ministry and the members a reason not to have to actually care about and have compassion for other human beings.


Paul

Anonymous said...

Yep. Keeping the law. I'm sure the Pharisees would agree that legalism was love.

        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

Byker Bob said...

I just couldn't help but wonder what might have happened if Paul had come into the AC gym one sabbath, like an angel unawares, oh, say about 1966. He probably would have totally freaked! Because, standing right in front of him, speaking in a big booming radio voice, would have been this little white haired false prophet, with NO love whatsoever, using the false prophecy to extract whatever little amounts of disposable cash his followers had left after the false tithing teachings had taken the rest.

Shoot, we would have been better off going over to GTA's house for a poker game. We know that GTA did have an occasional bad night gambling, so we would have had a fighting chance to keep some of our money!

BB



You know after a hard day of gambling 3rd tithe money, via poker chips purchased on his corporate AMEX card, flying church jets fueled and leased with 3rd tithe money to Vegas and who knows where,
shooting moose in Alaska from airplanes (highly illegal)
no wonder he needed a good rub-down now and then!

I just pity the poor therapist that had to work with that energy!

Neotherm said...

Tom:

This is a semantic issue that pivots on your use of the term undermine. Undermine generally means to impair the operation of something or to erode the basis of something. You were using it to mean "to negate".

The absolute promises of God cannot be negated but I would assert that their execution or application can be impaired.

So my argument addresses what you said. You just did not say what you meant.

Like HWA, when it comes to really critical exegesis, you need to look Webster's dictionary.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

And also be able to quote Scripture accurately would help a lot.

Tom Mahon said...

Neotherm said...

>>>This is a semantic issue that pivots on your use of the term undermine. Undermine generally means to impair the operation of something or to erode the basis of something. You were using it to mean "to negate".<<<

If there is a question of semantics, the question is for you to pose and answer. The truth of what I said is confirmed by scripture.

Tom Mahon said...

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>Tom must continue to compromise his position to lose more and more ground. He started out, as everyone well remembers, staunchly supporting Herbert Armstrong. Little by little, he's had to divorce himself further and further from the loser false prophet end time apostle:<<<

This is yet an other distortion of the facts. I have admitted on several occasions on this forum that HWA made mistakes and was guilty of sins! But what I have constantly affirmed is, that it is ill-logical to argue, as many members and ministers do, that HWA was a false prophet, but their baptism and ordination is valid. God does not called people to be baptised or ordained by false prophets!

For example, Joe junior has taken the lead in denouncing HWA as a false prophet, yet, according to him, he was baptised and ordained a minister under a false prophet's ministerial dispensation. Why has he not repudiated his baptism and ordination, and sought to be baptised and ordained by a true prophet or minister? The answer is very simple to those whose minds have not been warped by anger and bitterness.

Anonymous said...

it is ill-logical to argue, as many members and ministers do, that HWA was a false prophet, but their baptism and ordination is valid. God does not called people to be baptised or ordained by false prophets!

Acts 8:9-20

Simon the Sorcerer was the obvious exception.

It should be noted that the curse of Peter [from anger and bitterness] that "thy money perish wish me" was fulfilled: Herbert Armstrong died with all that money....

And not to put too fine a point on it, Tom's baptism must have not been valid, for he was baptized by a hireling of that great false prophet.

Anonymous said...

One further update to Bill Lussenheide's assertion that Weinland's book contained "murder threats" against RCM and others. The excerpt he quoted from the book neither confirmed nor denied that Weinland said definitively they were going to be murdered.

However. A quote from Weinland's Interview Comments page:

"As the leader of the Living Church of God, Roderick Meredith is mentioned as one of many ministers who will die as a result of the prophesied Fifth Thunder."
--------------------
"Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leadership of Roderick Meredith, and the Church of the Great God will be two of the first that fall when the Fifth Thunder begins to sound in the Churches of God that have failed to repent from God’s correction."

So Weinland is hoping Meredith will die, but not taking any credit for it (even though in the book Weinland claims he will be able to strike plagues on whoever he wants), and makes the point that these two churches will fall. Not necessarily the leaders.

Question: Why is Weinland so uptight about Rittenbaugh? I know Meredith was the one who kicked him out when PKG split from Living, but what did Rittenbaugh do to Weinland to deswerve such bile?

Weinland Watch said...

"deserve" Ugh. I hit publish instead of edit. :P

Anonymous said...

Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leadership of Roderick Meredith, and the Church of the Great God will be two of the first that fall when the Fifth Thunder begins to sound in the Churches of God that have failed to repent from God’s correction.

Well, see, now: Wade Cox declares that just silly -- LCG is Sardis because it has a name that it is "Living" but is dead, and, so, it must continue until Christ returns!

See now. Isn't that just neat, simple, logical? And wrong?

It doesn't look like the cows show the slightest hint of an indication that they are coming home. Messers Meredith and Ritenbaugh will be dead a long time if and when Christ returns.

Byker Bob said...

This is not funny any more. Weinland is apparently claiming to have the powers granted to the two witnesses. Some of the ACOGs have been playing a silly game for years, calling one another Laodecean. But, it's beginning to sound as if Weinland plans to use his witness powers to punish other ACOGs, who as Weinland puts it, fail to repent.


Ah well. Apostle Dave will straighten him out when he trains him.

BB

Weinland Watch said...

Yes, none of the members I'm engaging in public debate will answer whenever they are asked why Weinland does not bring plagues down on people like he claims he has the power to.

Personally, I'm hoping Rod Meredith is in good health, and can at least hang on till March 2; maybe then Weinland will be proven as a false prophet, without the members of the CoG-PKG having to wait for Armageddon to descend on April 17th.

Presuming Weinland and his BI-spouting evangelists don't have something up their sleeves that they can point to, and say "Prophecy fulfilled!" after the fact.......

Anonymous said...

Well, of course the members don't! They see Weinland as a type of Christ, and go to Jesus' examples of how to respond to Pharisees, unbelievers, and others who would question. It's all a part of the "game of Bible" anyone plays when they insert themselves personally into the book, rather than using it as an edifying resource for life.

BB (sorry, didn't have time to sign in)

Weinland Watch said...

In other news re: The Journal, I notice they published WCG's membership stats, but they failed to state the fact that at least three different sources from the same organization yields different data, as was pointed out on AR.

So much for impartial "Journal"ism.

And did you see the Connections advertising section?

[oldgeezer]
Pffffft! Back in my day, we argued about the timing of Pentecost, not Passover! What's the world of legalistic Armstrongism coming to?![/oldgeezer]