Big Sandy is without doubt entitled to be regarded as the Lake Wobegon of COGism. The recently departed splinter group there (see earlier item) are apparently calling themselves Texas Fellowship (not to be confused with this Texas Fellowship.) Attracted as moths to the flame have been a number of big to middlin' speakers from days of yore: Wayne Cole, David Antion, Jim Ussery.
No Board will be elected to reign over these independently-minded Texans. Anyone want to give them more than 12 months before the first big stampede?
94 comments:
I dont know Gavin...
Case of the pot calling the kettle black?
Texans are a unique independent bunch, with probably more guns per capita than anywhere else in the country. Descended from some real renegades, they were a country in their own right BEFORE the Mexican war, and then volunteered to join the Union, before renegading again within a decade and a half to join up with the rebellious Confederacy!
So there is obviously a very independent streak.
However, you New Zealanders and Aussies aint a whole lot different IMHO! The settlers of these countries (as I was taught), were a bunch of whores, thieves, drunks convicts, bankrupts, brawlers and general rift raft as well too!
So, you , our Southern Hemisphere English speaking friends aint a whole lot different in social demeanor as our Texas brethren in the end!
Luv
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Anybody remember high school Chemistry or Physics?
The ACOGs are similar to the proberbial box of marbles, turned loose in the old Chevy station wagon! They are gradually assuming a totally random pattern. Some of the marbles initially remain as groups, but as the experiment continues, they split off and diffuse, until no two marbles are even close to one another. Totally random pattern!
HWA is dead, so there is no dictator to keep the ACOGs together, and God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit never were a part of them, so will not be guiding or holding them together either.
It'd be nice for some of these folks to be able to obtain their spiritual guidance from somewhere, but it's just wishful thinking to believe that anything other than further splintering will be occurring within the ACOGs from this point onward. Unfortunately, that includes Texas, lovable as our former brethren from there might be.
BB
A Lone Star will appear in the East [from the perspective of Southern California] and [British] Israelites will fly on the wings of an Eagle [airlines]. Remember the Alamo [rent-a-car, upon landing].
We're waiting to see which way Dixon goes before committing to one group or another in this Journal of activities Deep in the Heart of Texas.
Truly, Texas is a Place of Safety [inspections].
Truly Texas is The Promised Land [of past potential Presidential Candidates].
Expect Animal Sacrifices [at the next barbeque -- and say, last week was Scout's week at the Church of Big Sandy!].
It's so hard to keep track of what State the Churches of God are in these days.
Get a rope....
There is one thing that all members of the Churches of God should be really good at: Math. Particularly division tables.
Gavin,
Perhaps before you create more stereotypical scenarios, you might consider contacting a few reputable sources...even Dixon for that matter, to find out what's going on in BS.
It's no lemming drive to be sure. Unless you consider passengers on a sinking ship searching for a life boat to be lemmings. At least that's they way they view it. Those people have had enough of big names and big egos. The way I see it, they're just looking for some peaceful meetings. They're the least likely of all the COG refugees to be swayed by some VIP from the past.
Those of us who believe that the WCG was a sham religion should be very slow to criticize anyone who jumps the "corporate church" ship for freedom. The farther they get from the corporate legacy the closer they get to true freedom.
Bravo to Lussenheide! The most hubristic people I've ever met were Brits and NZ's.
Some thoughts on getting together:
What Do You Do When You Meet?
' Don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together'
There are as many Christian meeting formats, it seems, as there are denominations. From the heavily formal 'high church' through to the 'happy-clappy' informality of modern evangelicals there is infinite variety. Do the Scriptures provide any fundamental guidelines?
...It may surprise readers to hear that the New Testament in no way suggests that the prime purpose of assembling together is 'worship'! That goes counter to the generally held belief that we come together primarily to 'worship the Lord'. It shapes the form of our assembly. The magnificence of worship in a great cathedral echoes that of the Temple in Jerusalem. More appropriate, however, is 'the synagogue model'. Temple worship was a rare experience for the Jews - maybe once a year, while the synagogue was frequently visited
...By definition worship is grateful man's expression of praise and thanksgiving to his Creator for all His blessings. But isn't that the whole of the Christian's daily life? Certainly our meeting together will include such - but it is not the prime function. We don't need to 'call Christ down' to our assembly - he is here, indwelling his brethren, as is our Father (John 14:23). We simply give thanks for their continued presence among us (Matthew 18:20)
...The apostolic model must surely be the most effective: '...they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching (Gk: didache), and fellowship (Gk koinonia: interaction), in the breaking of bread (Gk klao: sharing of food - cp v. 46) and the prayers' (Acts 2:42, Acts 4:24-30)
...The emphasis focused on the apostolic teaching. The brethren met primarily to learn and to share insights. Sound teaching was a sure defence against heretical teaching (cp I Timothy 1:3, 6:3, II Corinthians 11:4). Paul instructed Timothy: '...Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine [teaching]' (I Timothy 4:13)
...Indications are that the brethren - though all 'one church' - assembled in 'house-sized' groups (see Romans 16 etc), coming together only on special occasions (eg I Corinthians 11:18). It provided opportunity for mutual support: '...let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another' (Hebrews 10:24-25). Activities that are only possible with intimate interaction. In this way the brethren learned of each other's battles and victories and needs, and could unitedly pray for one another - and provide assistance as appropriate
...In this context the use of 'spiritual gifts' (Gk pneumatikos) (eg I Corinthians 12, 14) is more readily understood. While meetings were conducted '...decently and in order' (v.40) yet there was ample room for spontaneous participation and expression of these gifts
...So every church meeting is a 'business' meeting. We meet to hear what God is saying to us through the 'prophets' (speakers). We meet to cement and make friendships, to learn our brethren's needs, to pray for those needs, to supply those needs. We meet to share our food in a comfortable and relaxed and spiritual context. And every meeting is a '(Father's) business' meeting in which we learn to be'...witnesses unto [Jesus]...unto the uttermost part of the earth' (Acts 1:8) - and plan the ways and means for our assembly to fulfill that mission
"The way I see it, they're just looking for some peaceful meetings"
Would that not be a wonderful paradigm for group of spiritually minded souls, free of the drama and personalities of religion.
Within us should always be that Peace which is forever listening and open-minded. When this is missing, there is nothing but drama and personalities.
After due diligence and research,
Members came together in a church,
But some wanted revisions,
Which caused the divisions,
Now they've left their brethren in a lurch.
Gavin said: "Attracted as moths to the flame have been a number of big to middlin' speakers from days of yore: Wayne Cole, David Antion, Jim Ussery."
Caraid de sith pompousized: "Those people have had enough of big names and big egos."
One of these things is not like the other not like the other not like the other...............
One of the brands of anonymous said: "...In this context the use of 'spiritual gifts' (Gk pneumatikos) (eg I Corinthians 12, 14) is more readily understood. While meetings were conducted '...decently and in order' (v.40) yet there was ample room for spontaneous participation and expression of these gifts."
This brand of anonymous would be Quaker, if I don't miss my guess.
(Er, anonymous is not promoting the non-theist variety of Quakerism, that's where my spiritual interest resides right now.)
Dennis said: "Within us should always be that Peace which is forever listening and open-minded."
This comment also aligns closely with what I understand non-theist Quaker beliefs to be.
From Big Sandy to Abilene,
Church members tough and lean,
From disagreement there's grown a seed,
Over doctrine and who will lead,
Where they will go remains to be seen.
Texans live life bigger than large,
Sorting out who'll be General and Sarge,
Rank and file brethren are battered,
And will soon be quite scattered,
While leaders sort out who's in charge.
MAMA TOLD ME NOT TO COME
(Adapted for the COG)
By Three Dog Night -1970 #1
Want some lemon in your water
Sugar in your tea
What's all these crazy doctrines they teachin' me
This is the craziest church there could ever be
Don't turn on the lights, 'cause I don't want to see
Mama told me not to come
Mama told me not to come
That ain't the way to have church, no
Open up the window
Let some air into this room
I think I'm almost chokin'
From the smell of stale perfume
And that "end time stuff" you're touting
'Bout scared me half to death
Open up the window, sucker
Let me catch my breath
[Refrain]
Mama told me not to come
Mama told me not to come
She said, that ain't the way to have church, son
That ain't the way to have church, son
The minister is a blastin'
Im thinkin of splittin early out the door
I'm lookin' at my children
They're passed out on the floor!
I heard so many things
I ain't ever heard before
Don't know what it is
I don't wanna hear no more!
[Refrain]
Mama told me, mama told me, mama told me
Told me, told me
That ain't no way to have church, whoah, yeah yeah
Mama told me not to come!
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee CA USA
The learning curve will undoubtedly be steep,
As people to a new leader leap,
After all that is said and done,
It hardly matters who has won,
Pardon me as I go back to sleep.
After awhile it gets really funny,
As people jump church as quick as a bunny,
Not to sound to officious,
But aren't you suspicious,
It might be about showing the money?
I think Max in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe was right: After it's all over, it hardly matters.
The situation in Big Sandy is reminiscent of the scene in The Magnificent Seven when someone tells the time he took off all his clothes and jumped into a cactus patch: When his listener asked him why he did it, he said, "It seemed like a good idea at the time".
I am a Quaker of the Theistic variety. I am not sure what a non-theist Quaker is. This is like saying a non-theist evangelical.
Why don't they just separate themselves from the term Quaker completely and, since they focus on the "natural", call themselves a coven.
-- Neo
Os Cresson's article, The Roots and Flowers of Quaker Non-Theism suggests non-theism (or deism) may have been present in the RSoF as early as a hundred years after its founding.
It must also be noted that evangelical Quakers are a different sect from liberal Quakers, who are a different sect again from universalist Quakers.
The thing that strikes me as peculiar about the RSoF on the whole, is that generally members who ascribe to the theologies of these various divisions do not appear to have great animosity or even antagonism towards each other (as for example members who belong to various CoG splinters do).
Gavin, I'll leave my comment as it stands, but wholeheartedly apologize for the barb at the end. What a terrible guest I was at your table of commentary. When feeling under the weather, my dark side often gets the best of me.
Let's get to it then -- right to the core of the matter.
BS CoG -- the worst acronym since HAG-CoG -- is typical of what Armstrongism is all about: Adrift, trying to stay afloat, but silly, disfunctional, delusional, divisive and having the least reason to exist of nearly anyone or anything:
1) Based on British Israelism by Herbert Armstrong;
2) Victim of false prophet Herbert Armstrong who failed spectacularly with his predictions about 1975 -- building the campus at a time when it was to be abandoned for a Place of Safety which has as much chance as a snowball in a blast furnace;
3) Victim of a densely hierarchical power structure ungodly and self-centered consisting of narcissistic leaders all the way to the top positioning for better advantage, exhibiting little or no care for the congregations that served them;
4) Ill taught and ill prepared for the realities of life and succession;
5) Betrayed by a deliberate plotting and scheming by a fifth column which gained ascendancy by craft, taking over and changing every last thing in the escatology;
6) Victims of a bad example of avarice and creature comforts within an environment of the pride of life;
7) Exposed to obvious cognitive dissonance which can only be navigated by extreme compartmentalization to avoid the inevitable insanity which would ensue if they all weren't in denial;
8) Unprepared for the extreme stresses of the extremes to which everyone was subjected for no particularly good reason;
9) Openly betrayed by broken promises and broken covenants which were never even entertained in reality -- not to mention the unfulfilled promise of a tribulation, return of Christ and the millennium everyone was expecting;
10) Obsessing on things which do not matter in order to keep their particular cult alive -- a proposition doomed to failure in the long term....
The whole venue has a surreal "Twilight Zone" unreality about it which no sane rational person can begin to penetrate.
Now it may well be that this current schism may not be all that large or will have that much impact, but be warned, it is the inevitable consequence of people attempting to deal with impossible things and continuing to fail.
It is also not unexpected, because Wayne Cole is involved.
Does anyone know what in the bloody hell is going on down there?
Mr. Cartwright, could you fill us in? This disturbs me. I always felt that COGBS was one of the last hopes for COGdom.
Paul
Garner Ted Armstrong has been resurrected and is in full control.
Here's what I have planned for my newspaper, "The Journal: News of the Churches of God," as far as coverage of the situation in Big Sandy is concerned.
In the current issue, which we plan to print any day now (maybe Tuesday, Feb. 19), The Journal will carry a brief article reporting on the expulsion, by the board of the Church of God Big Sandy, of a board member.
That article will also announce that fuller coverage is coming in the subsequent issue, which we hope to have out within three weeks. For that article I have invited representatives from both sides of the conflict to submit statements of about 1,200 words each in which they can tell the story in their own words. Those statements would run under an introductory article that would briefly outline the pertinent events.
As much as I am able, I am not taking sides. I have close friends -- even on my immediate volunteer staff -- on both sides of the Big Sandy situation.
Dixon Cartwright
Thanks, Dixon.
Paul
caraid de sith said...
>>>Gavin,
Perhaps before you create more stereotypical scenarios, you might consider contacting a few reputable sources...even Dixon for that matter, to find out what's going on in BS.<<
If Gavin is right and Wayne Cole is involved in the division, we have once again come full circle. In 1979 Wayne was also involved in the division and conspiracy to bring about the premature destruction of WCG, in support of GTA and Ron Dart. A leopard can't change its spots!
The question now is, how reputable a source will be Dixon? For he is bound to be torn between his loyalty to his "friend," Wayne, and Dave Havir, who is a resident columnist in The Journal. Time will tell.
>>>Those people have had enough of big names and big egos.<<<
They all have big egos! Some are much more skilful at hiding their until the time is right to strike!
>>>The way I see it, they're just looking for some peaceful meetings.<<<
Sadly, the semblance of peace won't last very long. For unless Christ is in them, there won't be any peace. "Man," as Saint Augustine observed, "is gregarious by nature and quarrelsome by perversion." Unless people can overcome the perversions of sin, there will never be peace in cog-land.
Tom quoting "Saint" Augustine? How very, very strange!
Tom mis-saith:
In 1979 Wayne was also involved in the division and conspiracy to bring about the premature destruction of WCG, in support of GTA and Ron Dart.
Well Tom, you got that typically bassackwards again. I was there for that whole sorry back stabbing episode. And your lousy drunken "apostle" did most of the back stabbing, even as he was hiding out in Tucson like the coward he was. Wayne Cole was the patsy, the fall guy. He never knew what hit him.
Later on, after your lousy drunken "apostle" came out of hiding, because the wusses in the attorney general's office chickened out of bringing him to justice for his high crimes against us brethren, Armstrong used Wayne Cole as a fall guy again. Only this time it was long after Cole was gone when Cole wasn't around to defend himself.
The Herbster decided he had had enough of his "rebellious" new wife and her heavy use of makeup. Or at least that was one of his pretexts to divorce her. Yes, he started setting all of us up for this divorce. And he blamed his 1974 "revelation" about makeup being Ok (again) on Wayne Cole. I still have his letter on disk.
Tom, you are following a bum, who had a bum theology. And it smells like a bum -- a drunken bum in an alley way. And it must be a real bummer for you to have to continue to live the lie that you do. How you can face your lying mug in the mirror every morning ye gods only know.
Synopsis of Big Sandy board meeting
The following synopsis of the board meeting on Monday, Feb. 4, was submitted by secretary Neil McIver.
The minutes of the Dec. 17, 2007, meeting and the Jan. 22, 2008, meeting were approved unanimously. Jim Wilkins made a motion (seconded by Karl Wilson) to fill the vacancy on the board with John Bearse. The motion passed unanimously.
John Bearse made a motion (seconded by Ron Avey) to give John Warren another 48 hours to communicate a request to the board for an appeal of his removal. The motion did not pass, 4-3. Voting for the motion were Ron Avey, John Bearse and Karl Wilson. Voting against the motion were Don Mischnick, Bernie Monsalvo, Jim Wilkins and me.
I made a motion (seconded by Jim Wilkins) to adopt the 2008 budget submitted by the Budget Committee. The motion passed unanimously.
Next came some updates about items of old business. Dave Havir mentioned that he was closer to beginning work on the Governance Committee. Karl Wilson gave a few comments about the Election-Procedure Committee and distributed a draft copy of a potential handbook. Karl Wilson gave a few comments about the Web site.
Bernie Monsalvo gave a report about the two meetings of the Dispute-Resolution Committee that he chairs. Ten people have volunteered to serve.
Bernie Monsalvo mentioned that the signatory cards at the bank had been updated and that the filings of the DBA (county and state) are current.
In the pastor's report, Dave Havir mentioned the following five items: (1) Some youth workers and parents in our congregation went to hear Josh McDowell give a presentation about relationships at LeTourneau University. (2) The teen dance class had a good beginning. Some older members of the congregation joined the teens. (3) We are planning to have a Kids' Camp this summer. (4) Since Mr. Havir has not been traveling as much recently (to give some extra attention to the congregation), the requests for church visits are piling up. (5) Mr. Havir reported that negotiations for two additional Feast sites (beyond Big Sandy, Destin and Myrtle Beach) are continuing. He hopes to finish the process soon.
"The question now is, how reputable a source will be Dixon?"
Very.
'Mr. Cartwright, could you fill us in? This disturbs me. I always felt that COGBS was one of the last hopes for COGdom'
BGO - as long as there are people in the church there will be trouble. Once numbers in a group increase greatly so does the trouble. The NT pattern was for small 'house groups' - independent of one another but working together for mutual support.
The Churches of God Outreach Ministries (founded 1996) is trying to model this. People and groups come - and go. The structure ensures no individual dominates but each of the brethren contributes his or her skills and talents. Each in his assembly is nourished towards becoming Christ-like in character.
It isn't perfect but it is practical - and seems to work.
BGO - 'blinding glimpse of the obvious'
"The NT pattern was for small 'house groups' - independent of one another but working together for mutual support."
In my personal experience, "where two or three are gathered together, someone stages a coup, someone is the follower and someone gets dismembered."
:)
Actually just kidding. However that pattern seems to be true if the small group has the RCG Apostle in attendance.
The larger the group, the more control it has to exert over itself. Thus the "leaders" and thus the "problems."
Pastors and Priests of huge churches come into the hospital all the time to see parishoners, and they can't come up with a last name so we can actually find them to visit. They end up on the phone calling someone who knows "the lady that had the stroke" and get a last name.
One minister type stormed out last week when I could not help him and would not just reading names to him on the 8th floor where he thought they might be. It was hilarious. The little assistant he had with him looked mortified. The minister wanted to be ministerial but couldn't take the time to know the actual name of the person that would making him feel as such by gracing them with his presence.
I enjoy watching ministers get angry and raise their voices on the phone when they feel they have been misinformed or sent on a wild goose chase.
The only thing better is listening to them demand "ministerial parking" because they are very busy and I get to tell them we save those spaces near the door for those that can't walk or breathe and that sometimes we just have to ask ourselves, "where would Jesus park." :)
These are actions and reactions of many ministes in ALL denominations.
"(4) Since Mr. Havir has not been traveling as much recently (to give some extra attention to the congregation)"
You mean Havir is trying to hold together his little theocracy with loud prayer and the judicious application of barbed wire to those who would question his authority. Correct?
One Board Member?
Church of God Big Sandy is the least unhealthiest of the churches of God. They have been watching and listening and learning from the lessons of the past. They've been through the WCG and the UCG experience and gained a depth of wisdom denied to less alert fellowships.
The Church of God Big Sandy has an impressive number of programs to serve their congregations for young and old and the in between: Senior Groups, Singles, Teens, even Boy Scouts are but a part of a full program of diversity.
So when we come to one -- count them, one -- board member goes off on his own, it is hardly a cause for invocation of hyperbole to attract conspiracy theorists. If anything, cleaning out the shallow end of the gene pool is a good thing. If, indeed, Wayne Cole, David Antion and Jim Ussery are involved, a few leaving isn't entirely a bad thing.
For those of you who may have forgotten, Jim Ussery had those full page ads in The Journal for the Feast site for those who did not keep postponements, up until the time that the feast site pretty much got wiped out by a hurricane.
This whole topic is rather rabble rousing with a rather disturbing emphasis on an unfortunate minority which may very well be best divested.
Back when we were all on that fun Jihad forum, one of us became an apostle of the ULC. In due time, Ron offered me the right hand of acceptance as an apostle. For some time, I had a 2ndApostle website, in fact. Our goal was to make all those abandoned by the WCG apostles so there would no longer be any special significance to the office of Apostle, except, of course, an apostle is one sent forth, and those of us who have become apostles certainly know what it is to get kicked out of various groups, thus being, "One sent forth".
Now it just turns out, concerning Wayne Cole, it all depends upon your point of view. If you believe that undermining Herbert Armstrong in his madness is a good thing, then, yes, Wayne Cole did a good thing, betraying his own boss. The proof, though, as they say, is in the pudding, and that, after you eat it. The fruit of Wayne Cole and the rest of the six conspirators was less than impressive: It caused great disruption for awhile, and ended up putting Tkach in power. So you might say that, yes, Wayne Cole did help initiate something that toppled the Armstrongist Empire, only to have it turn around and bite the majority of the innocents.
Wayne Cole has not been limited to causing disruption during the Herbert Armstrong era. Those of us in Redding at the UCG Feast clearly remember his watermark sermon at the time just before a man denying that he was accepted as the new president of United was looking for a house in Cincinnati. I believe the term used by one member concerning Wayne Cole was "snake", but what with an imperfect memory and all, I could be mistaken.
The point is that Wayne Cole comes across as oh-so-innocent with results that are far less so. It wouldn't be so bad if he were straight out straight arrow, but he is not -- he's down right devious.
So it may well be that he attempted to do the right thing to take down Herbert Armstrong beginning at December 1978, but if he had succeeded, then what. A moot point. He didn't succeed. He's a failure. He ended up that his wife had to support him as she went forth in her Realty business -- a position of a lot of past CoG leaders having their wives support them, even Wade Cox. He also failed to gain ground in the UCG. If he was a part of the Church of God Big Sandy, based on his past history, he will be a failure at that, and if he goes off with a different group, they won't last and he will be yet another failure.
It just seems to me that the man is in the spirit of a true Armstrongist but he will always come to failure, based, at least, on his past record. Anyone who joins him with knowledge of his history is going to end up looking like an utter fool, because it's clear that Wayne Cole will never come up on the winning side, whatever that is.
"Church of God Big Sandy is the least unhealthiest of the churches of God."
I agree. I can't help but think (once again) that this is a situation involving legalism. Last time I visited, COGBS had a very diverse crowd, and Havir liked to concentrate on what I would call a mainstream Christian focus rather than the typical COG BS (tee-hee). I wouldn't be surprised if this all came out of a disagreement on The Law and basic Armstrongism in general.
As far as Havir goes, I will never forget his sermon, "What Is A Minister," a sermon that is probably banned in the other COG's. It opened my eyes. After that sermon, I never viewed a minster as a superior figure in any way at all. Servants indeed. In my opinion, Havir is one of the few in the COG's.
It's unseemly to slap around figures like Wayne Cole, David Antion, et al. Goodness, they were reared, spiritually speaking, in a ridiculously disfunctional organization. At least they showed twinges of conscience, even if they have chosen to continue the oddball legacy of the parent organization. Tom M's comments about Cole are simply absurd, born of ignorance, nothing more. Anyone around the campus at the time knew that whole charade stank to high heaven. Then "yet another apostle" chimes in (a most unenviable position to take) and hammers Cole for an alleged transgression at a UCG Feast site. Well, boo-friggin'-hoo.
On to Big Sandy. Look, this kind of thing is inevitable when you allow people some freedom. Myopes like Mahon & Co. prefer lockstepping, and are a thing of the past. While what's transpired in Big Sandy may seem unfortunate, I've got my own things to worry about.
I'm with Dennis on the Cartwright credibility factor. Imagine, a COG publication willing to offer both sides. Would that such an approach had existed during the age of the Armstrongs.
Lessons Learned
Some of these sentiments echo those of Felix Taylor, but have a different focus. If Churches of God want to be viable, they will do the following as a minimum:
1) Leave Herbert Armstrong behind.
The rest of this follows that one premise alone.
2) Make up your own songbooks: No more Dwight Armstrong hymns and, I'm sorry, but even Ross Jutsom's songs have to go [the most painful removal will be Psalm 1]; it will be painful, but much better in the long term.
3) No more British / Anglo Israelism. It has been unhealthy from the start and has produced absolutely no good fruit.
4) No more speculative prophecy beyond Jesus Christ returning: No more death, doom, destruction, devastation, disturbing visions which will give children nightmares into adulthood, and, particularly, no place of safety for the elite.
5) No more hierarchical authority from the top down. Consensus is more than a nice unrealistic theory. It not only works, it produces better results than a heavy handed top heavy autocratic governance where people panic and take control at the drop of an hyperbole.
6) Abandonment of sexism, racism, agism and all those other isms effectively banned in today's business world by government regulation.
7) Concentrate on your own group and taking care of the members rather than finding out what you think is wrong with everyone else and publishing it to the world in order to gain dissatisfied disgruntled mentally unbalanced conspiracy theorists.
8) Keep the Sabbaths and the Holyday Feasts in their apparent rich meaning if you must, but don't obsess on them as if they were the be all end all of all things: After all, the world is coming to an end [if the eschatology has any merit] but the really good news is not the temporary millennium or the briefer second resurrection, but the glorious good news that every problem will expunged and there will be no more disease or problems where everyone will be happy.
9) Don't sweat the small stuff and major in the majors.
10) Forget personalities. They come and go. Mostly go, especially among the seriously geriatric group.
To the credit of Big Sandy, they've adopted some of these but there is still room for improvement.
At least they showed twinges of conscience
A most uneviable position to take.
They sat there for years in Pasadena, knowing full well what was going on, and did nothing. They knew what was going on. They did not have twinges of conscience. At best, it was revenge -- a position reasonable to those in a dysfunctional [not a disfunctional] environment, but one which has no viability.
they were reared, spiritually speaking
Not exactly. They obsessed. They sat around in confused unfocused apathy for years until they had the gumption to do something, and by that time it was the wrong thing. It produced bad results. If you are going to take a paycheck, then be a hireling. If you want to protest, then quit, stop taking a paycheck, and, for heaven's sake, don't try to appear to be the good guy by playing both ends against the middle so you can end up to be the end time apostle if things work out.
Wayne Cole certainly wanted to be in charge, or at least control and manipulate things to his advantage. I was there. I heard his sermon at the end of 1978 in Seattle in December as he told us that we needed to "leave the old man behind" and go on, because we walk not by faith but by sight. If you are going to do something by stealth, it's unhealthy to telegraph your intentions because you have to know with the gossip news network in the WCG, news of the sermon and its implications had reached Pasadena by 9 PM that night after sunset. If you are involved in a conspiracy, at least be smart about it. That's part of the reason for the failure: Pure arrogance -- yet another fruit of Armstrongism.
No, it was not twinges of conscience which drove them. At best, it was disgust with the immorality and laxness. At worst, it was avarice and revenge. The most likely, it was an unholy admixture of the three.
Discussions of the WCG and Herbert Armstrong of the 1970s always invokes the vision of Dominick Dunne's Power, Privilege and Justice series, without the murders. Mostly.
ripley said...
>>It's unseemly to slap around figures like Wayne Cole, David Antion, et al.<<
If Wayne Cole had left WCG and stayed at home, instead of supporting GTA and Ron Dart in promoting CGI, your assertion that he was hammered might be worth exploring to see if there is any truth to it. But Wayne was well aware that GTA was guilty of a number of grievous sins, including the premeditated sin of adultery.
Anyone with what you called a "twinge" of conscience or biblical understanding would have realised that GTA had fallen from grace. For it is an absolute fact, that no genuine minister of Christ could ever be guilty of adultery.
So your feeble attempt to defend Wayne, is about as effective as the defence of the Boston strangler.
>>>Tom M's comments about Cole are simply absurd, born of ignorance, nothing more.<<<
You have not posted anything to support your assertions. Shouting abuse is not a reasoned argument, you might be surprised to learn.
>>>I'm with Dennis on the Cartwright credibility factor.<<<
Dennis' judgement is probably on par with Wayne's. And as for Dixon credibility, one wonders if he has ever heard of the word. For how a man of any credibility count Wayne Cole as a friend? Does he not know that "virtue is the parent of friendship," as Cicero has observed. And the sacred bonds of friendship cannot subsist amongst men who are fickle minded.
BTW, earlier today I dug out my 1981/2 photo album of WCG ministers, and both Dennis and Dave Havir are there.
Dennis displays a mop of untidy black hair, a slight resemblance of Gregory Peck and a smirk with says, "I am only here for the beer."
Dave looks very young and fresh- faced, with a receding hairline and inscrutable expression, which to some degree betrays his manipulative tendencies, as is evident from his column in The Journal.
Implicit in a number of statements in this thread is the idea that Armstrongite organizations exist in a kind of spectrum and some are better organizations than others.
Somehow Havir's church is not supposed to be nearly so bad.
I find this a little amazing. No doubt there is a spectrum but I don't think it is really significant. If at one end of the spectrum you have intensely heretical and at the other pole modestly heretical, we are still talking about heresy. Out there in the great suckscape of
Armstrongism, there probably are some brighter spots.
But it is easy to understand, whether you believe in Christianity or not, that these Armstrongite religions are not Christian. Armstrongites, being true to their brain-washing, would be the first to tell you that, they will just apply the term "Christian" to themselves and the term "pagan" to others.
I see no reason to have hope for any of these organizations nor do I see any reason to want to have hope for these organizations.
-- Neo
Well, another apostle, its a good thing we got rid of Cole in favor of, say, Meredith and McNair.
EVERYBODY knew what was going on. It was a bizarre phenomenon that people were paralyzed by some odd mixture of fear and loyalty, unable to bring themselves to act on evidence that was right before their eyes. To one degree, I regard them as accountable, sure. But then again, I signed the employee document when Rader's "corporate sole" scheme was hatched, something I wouldn't do today.
You mentioned you were in Seattle. Were you living up there at the time, or in Pasadena?
Traveling Dave Havir covered the Big Sandy pulpit only 35 of 52 times in 2007, but every Sabbath in 2008 so far (except one).
Bernie Monsalvo covers for Havir a lot. BS sermonetts can be special music interludes, instead of one boring bible verse mind-numbingly quoted after another after another.
Wayne Cole substituted for Dave Havir in 2007, giving seven total sermons for Havir in 2007, but none in the Q4 2007, and none since then.
West Brom Tom wrote:
"Dennis displays a mop of untidy black hair, a slight resemblance of Gregory Peck and a smirk with says, "I am only here for the beer."
I wouldn't call Dennis's hair "untidy", maybe just wavy. He did/does have a slight resemblance to Gregory Peck. Smirk? How about just an innocent wink-of-the-eye smile? That would be the Dennis Diehl that I remember from his senior year, my freshman year, in Pasadena. And from the tone of his postings to this site.
What's wrong with being "here for the beer"? If the old WCG ministry hadn't taken themselves so bloody seriously, and lightened up, the church would've been a far better place to be, back in the day.
I plan to have numerous pints of the best beer in the world (cask-conditioned ales brewed in the Black Country, including the scrumptious libations rendered at the Old Swan/Ma Pardoe's in Netherton) once again come the high summer. That's like holydays for me!
"He did/does have a slight resemblance to Gregory Peck."
I look like my mom. It's a genetic thing. The smirk is from my Dad, "M. T. Hall".. a name he used when he wrote Joe Tkach to point out the ever dwindling attendance at his local church under the Tkaches.
BTW Tom, have you picked up a copy of Anti Semitism and the New Testament, by Freudmann yet? Or if you don't wish to do that, could you send Gavin a picture of yourself, preferably from the 80's to post so we can take a look and see what we think? Come on, be a sport. Send it in......
Oh the hair thing. GTA called me out of Freshman bible once to his office to ask me "why do you hate me" and "you need to get a haircut." It was the sixties after all and it was obvious that hair over the forehead somehow diminished the seat of intellect behind the eyes.
GTA had gone ballistic the previous sabbath yelling at someone in the congregation he did not name that "if you don't like it here, you can just get out!" Whoa...we all froze. I was still just 18 and basically Presbyterian. At any rate, on Monday morning, GTA said to me....
"Did you know I was talking about you this week in church?" Thus the "Why do you hate me?"
I was naive then and had no clue as to what the hell set that off in him with me. It took a few more years to realize that he was afraid I knew more about him than he wanted me to, which I didn't, and had to find out. He relaxed after he realized I was not threat to him.
Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to me if I had said.."I know what you did last summer, and we're dating the same people."
I'm not really sure the Calvinist Dutch boy would have been allowed to just walk out of that office had I known anything or even hinted that I did.
Anyway... I love this story. Lived and burn :)
Well, another apostle, its a good thing we got rid of Cole in favor of, say, Meredith and McNair.
No great trade there. They should have all been gone, or more better, never have existed at all. However, that might not have been in "God's Plan": You see, maybe all the suffering had a point, like, maybe, "DON'T DO THAT AGAIN!".
You mentioned you were in Seattle. Were you living up there at the time, or in Pasadena?
I've been everywhere, man, I've been everywhere. Well, actually, not quite, but there were significant events in places I happened to be when they occurred. And you don't have to come from Pasadena to be an ersatz apostle of the ULC: It's online Internet, takes five minutes, from anywhere in the world. Extras cost extra.
Implicit in a number of statements in this thread is the idea that Armstrongite organizations exist in a kind of spectrum and some are better organizations than others.
Only in the social sense... only in the social sense.
An acquaintance of mine ventured into this arena some years back. He had two interests: The first was that he had someone he cared about disappear because of cult, presumed dead and wanted to be certain that on his watch, no one would ever go through that again if he had any chance of preventing it; the second one was more prosaic -- he had written mysteries and science fiction and wanted the material for a story or stories he could write.
On that second part, it appears that it was a complete bust. Don't know for sure. It was difficult though, to frame the whole venue of Armstrongism into a popular book that would sell. There were too many complexities. The material was too extreme for popular consumption. The vagaries, conspiracies, betrayals are, and have been, too unbelievable for ordinary people to believe, even in today's weird world.
If you think about it, it really is too much to fathom. I discussed just a bit of my experiences with an attorney with which I was consulting and while he was fascinated, it was clear that he couldn't begin to understand the topic.
The WCG experience is just too weird to touch and sometimes we all forget how utterly extreme it is. Too many take the Twilight Zone events of the CoGs in such stride as just another... something, that it raises concern about so many people being insensitized to abhorrent behaviors best left to those looking for a thesis for advanced degrees in psychiatry, sociology, psychology and criminology. And even those seeking to use material in that way may be rejected by advisers who reject manuscripts because it doesn't describe human behavior, just as Dr. Robert Hare's adviser rejected the brainwaves of psychopaths because they "weren't even human".
I know what you did last summer
Dennis, what a fascinating proposition.
There are some here, though, who denied anything happened in the Seventies in the Worldwise Church of Fraud under Herbert Armstrong.
Yes, the one fear everyone had back then, and was quite paranoid about was the "secret sins" of the pastards warping the minds of impressionable youth with their distorted perceptions, in an obvious attempt to make them a two-fold child of hell Pharisee than themselves in a sick dysfunctional environment.
It was quite a shock to hear from Ambassador College Students at the Feast of Tabernacles about the goings on at Pasadena: The beer busts, the pot parties and even more fun stuff. After hearing them talk about it, there's this sort of numbness which takes over and leave the mind sort of blank.
It's too shocking to comprehend that future ministers weren't even taught the basics of Herbert's eschatology. Whether or not it was heresy is irrelevant. That decade saw atheists and agnostics teaching classes at AC and selling their books at the student bookstore. Then Herbert Armstrong goes on a typical manic rampage and declares it "Satan's College" while the rank and file member in the field goes, "huh?!". "Some of you here don't agree with me," he would say at the Feast, and we'd go, "what's that all about?!".
It is, and has been, a venue rife with real live conspiracies, mysteries and downright living fiction.
Beyond belief doesn't even begin to cover it.
I know what you did last summer
It would have been the most terrifying revelation of all.
Everything in the CoGs appears to be the result of Herbert Armstrong insisting he was royalty and his attempts to get himself treated as such.
"I'm not really sure the Calvinist Dutch boy would have been allowed to just walk out of that office had I known anything or even hinted that I did."
Oh, I'm sure you could have kicked his ass. Jesus, imgagine the sermons after that! "Brethren, Satan is physically attacking THE WORK! Just yesterday my son, Garner Ted, was assaulted by a minion of the devil!!"
Paul
Paul
Tired Skeptic.
I don't blame you for being tired..ha.
Honestly, either I was in a cocoon or just missed it all, AC at the time I was there 68-72 seemed to me to just be a church college and I was just taking theology classes. I think I knew most of the faculty fairly well. I was Jr. Class Pres etc. The things you mentioned were just not a part of my knowledge or experience. That may have come a few years later.
Annon said:
Oh, I'm sure you could have kicked his ass.
Well I could now! I got my 3rd degree brown belt in karate in the 90's just to get away from thinking about the church and also did EMT things as a hobby. I told the last church I pastored here in SC, "I can marry you, I can bury you. I can kick your butt and I can fix it...what more do you want!"
I'm not sure they thought that was funny. :)
Wow, Dennis. At least GTA acknowledged your humanity. I saw him out at Flight Operations (I was getting read to sweep the floor of the hangar) in Big Sandy one lonesome Texas evening and he gave me a strange stare and that was all.
-- Neo
Neo...well I got used to that same strange stare for the next four years after the office visit. I am surprised in hindsite I made it into the ministry, thought honestly that's what I went to college for thinking it was a place guys who wanted to minister went to. I had NO background in the WCG much before I stepped on the campus as a 18 year old kid from NY. I never attended a local congregation more than a three or four times before going.
Al Portune once stopped where a friend of mine was doing landscaping and said, "Just think, if it was not for me,you wouldn't have a job." Amazing...anyway, I said "you should have said, "if it was not for my parents, either would you."
Alas, I was not able to deliver that line and have always wished I had.
I was going to post again but...I felt so bad...after Mahon rebuked me that...I...I...I just can't.
[sniff!]
NOT. OK, back to Big Sandy. Does anyone know if the new group will eventually build their own building, too? There sure are a lot more places there for weddings and scout meetings these days.
Tom Moron,
Yeah, be a sport. Show us your mug shot.
Richard
Dennis Diehl related his experience with GTA and wrote, "Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to me if I had said.."I know what you did last summer, and we're dating the same people."
MY COMMENT - Too bad you didn't say, "I know your boinking the church jet stewardess, Gail, and I'm dating her too except I don't already have a wife Shirley like you".
Since I know this is a public forum, I've withheld the church jet stewardess' last name, and from my recollection she was an a-typical WCG girl - a real knockout. Apparently, GTA almost left his wife over her. She came to AC from my local church congregation. My older brother, also in the church in the late 1960s/ early 1970s, once had a date with Gail too.
Richard
Anonymous said...
>>>Tom quoting "Saint" Augustine? How very, very strange!<<<
Really? Well, I have learnt more about the grace of God from reading Saint Augustine of Hippo and Blaise Pascal than from any other Christian writers, including HWA, you might be shocked to discover!
It was a biography of Pascal, written in the late 60's by Morris Bishop, that eventually introduced me to Saint Augustine. I said eventually, for I never truly understood the significance of the book until I reread it in 1975, during what the Apostle Paul described as "a fight of afflictions."
I then bought a copy of Augustine confessions and City of God, and on reading them, Augustine introduced me to Cicero, whose writings had led him to the study of philosophy and rhetoric, before he met Ambrose in Milan and was converted to Christianity.
The Catholics may have hijacked Peter, Paul and Augustine for themselves, and therein may lie your "very strange." But none of these would have been seen dead in a Catholic church.
If anyone is seriously interested in the teachings of the bible, then, read Augustine, you will be inspired and enlightened, especially if you want to comprehend the incomprehensibility of the mystery of God.
A strange stare from GTA... directed to young men? Now wasn't there a story - told by the fellow who wrote "Broadway to Armageddon" (I don't recollect his name) - about GTA's, um, "ambidextrous" interests?
Ambisextrous?
GTA's "Why do you hate me?" paranoia apparently continued for years. He was putting the students through that same angst when I was there, too. I skillfully missed out on this displeasure by smiling conspicuously and fakely at a GTA-led sing-along after the sabbath service announcement. Later on, some administrator told us that Teddy did this every year, and generally singled out people who had intense or serious expressions on their faces during his sermons.
As if we thought we had it bad, he actually announced to us during an AC forum one time that he was going to start asking some of the guys at Imperial how many times per day they masturbated! Guess nobody then thought it was strange that a minister would be concerned about this! If third in command to Jesus Christ (or so we thought!) asked you a question like that, even if you'd never even experimented with it, you'd want to die just thinking you were a suspect!
If anyone was at AC just for the beer, it was me. We didn't smoke marijuana though. Apparently that came into vogue sometime during the mid-70s during the time period HWA knew as Satan's era. Guess he never studied up on the sacramental herb kaneh bosn, used in the temple incense by the priests in the Old Testament.
BB
Dennis wrote,
"I enjoy watching ministers get angry and raise their voices on the phone when they feel they have been misinformed or sent on a wild goose chase."
You know, the words "wild goose chase" describes something about a church I was once in, better than any other words I've come across.
At least, at the moment I read it, it seemed that way.
Man, did that click!
Was it the WCG, or the WGC?!
LOL!!!!!!
Thanks Dennis.
No. It's amblasphesextrous!
BB
Tom, you seem to interpret much by a person's hairstyle.
You should have seen my mop a few days ago before I got it cut!
How do you wear yours?
We had dinner with GTa in London. There was the on-going 'mad cow disease' scare. I mentioned this to him. Wonder why he left the remainder of his steak?
Yet Another Apostle Said, "It was difficult though, to frame the whole venue of Armstrongism into a popular book that would sell. There were too many complexities......The WCG experience is just too weird to touch and sometimes we all forget how utterly extreme it is. Too many take the Twilight Zone events of the CoGs in such stride as just another... something, that it raises concern about so many people being insensitized to abhorrent behaviors best left to those looking for a thesis for advanced degrees in psychiatry, sociology, psychology and criminology".
MY COMMENT: This statement reminds me of a paragragh or two from my unpublished essay, "My Worldwide Church of God Reflections -1972 in Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?" Since I know Tom Moron enjoys reading these occaisional essay excerpts, Tom this excerpt is for you:
“Dallas” or “The Sopranos”?
My lasting impressions of the Worldwide Church - with all its scandals, hypocrisy, self righteousness, fraud, corruption, erroneous prophetic teachings, and extortion - were simply a Church one could not be proud of belonging to!
The real life script would make a good TV series because the Worldwide Church has it all: fire and brimstone sermons from Herbert Armstrong and his ministers; a handsome radio and television personality in Armstrong’s son dubbed by Penthouse magazine as, “America’s Playboy Preacher”, who is reported to have bed with more than 200 young coeds and church women when he wasn’t busy proclaiming on radio about how immoral America is; corporate jets and world figures; money, power and power struggles; sex scandals and expensive real estate beyond most peoples’ wildest imaginations.
In fact, I’m really surprised the Armstrongs and the Worldwide Church hasn’t been made into a TV mini series by now. The only thing missing in the Armstrong TV mini series is true religion. While it makes good drama, why would anyone want to belong to a church like this?
End of excerpt
Richard
Gail was one the most sweetly naive girls I ever "dated" at college. A real gem. I listened to her talk about her job and she was so amazed she was selected.
Gail died several years ago, way too young. She was a very fine woman.
Yet, sadly, apparently, about the only TV about Armstrongism appeared on Quincy with an absolutely hilarious Stanley Rader look alike portraying the lawyer for "Mr. Osbourne".
The WCG did consider suing, but as I discussed with Ralph Helge later, decided not to.
I was at an ICG potluck, setting up tables, when GTA asked me, "Are you in the service, young man?" in a very carrying voice. He had a beaming smile and bright eyes. I said yes, he mentioned his time in the Navy and I went on to describe my current duties while I set up the table. I looked up and noticed that GTA wasn't paying attention anymore...he was still beaming but his eyes were seeing through me and scanning the small crowd. No big deal, I know, but I realized then and there that GTA was more akin to a politician or a Hollywood-type as opposed to a normal person or a "minister". I was a set piece for him to play off of...like I said, no big deal. I was still enamoured with him at the time, though I thought it odd, no more. In retrospect, I feel sort of sorry for the man in a way. He went from being an international figure, with legions of devotees and a lifestyle of/and to fit a king, to an old man in a hotel meeting room sitting on a folding chair. I see now why he continually made reference to himself "carrying on the Work" no matter how small and mean the circumstance- it was a way to shunt the pain and embarrassment of his fall from stardom, so to speak. It was a way to justify and even give credibility to his Golden Years.
I take that back. My tithes probably went to clean his pool. He deserved it all.
Paul
Dennis:
I believe I was introduced to the stewardess in the Field House at Big Sandy in the early Seventies. One of my buddies from Pasadena was a classmate of hers.
She did seem nice, but aren't you painting her a little too naive?
-- Neo
She did seem nice, but aren't you painting her a little too naive?
-- Neo
I don't know. I am only commenting on the person I knew personally and the context in which I knew her.
Dennis,
Thanks for the information. I will pass that information along to my brother and sister in law who knew Gail in our local Washington, D.C. WCG congregation.
What a small world! Our paths crossed with Gail again about 12 years after I left the WCG cult and about 1,000 miles away from Washington, D.C. My brother and his family moved to Iowa and I was visiting him in the late 1980s. We went out to eat at a cafeteria in Waterloo, Iowa and there we ran into Gail eating at the same cafeteria with her husband. I believe she married a doctor if memory serves me correct.
By the way, the reason this thread is of interest to me personally is because Dave Havir officiated my father's funeral in 1983. My father was a WCG member.
Richard
Mike Meredith (Rod's son) once told me that GTA had 150 known affairs. A lot of them were ministers wives and coeds.
But the thing that really bothered me, was the fact that I left the conversation wondering why his daddy kept score.
Gail, whomever she was, was hardly the only one. I think we'd do all such women a favor by not dragging them through the mud. Most people's resistance to temptation varies inversely attractiveness of the person doing the tempting.
After reading this very strange thread of comments, I further wonder why Tom Mahon can find such ferver in attacking the credentials of GTA for adultery, when HWA had an even darker problem.
There's a lot of denial HWA did what he did, but I don't believe anyone actually "caught" GTA in the act either.
"Mode of Death" (written by Abrey Solomon and Steve Greenburg, based on a story by Deborah Klugman) on "Quincy"; "Charlatan" (by Michael Vitters) on "Lou Grant," and "The Miracle Man" (by Robert James) which has already been rerun once on "Hawaii Five-O." All relate to religious rip-offs.
The Quincy character was based on the life of Dr. Thomas Noguchi. He was a LA County Medical Examiner in real life. He performed autopsies on John Belushi, Natalie Wood and Marilyn Monroe.
Mode of Death
Episode: 5x07 (Season 5 Episode 07)
Originally Aired: Nov. 01, 1979
Plot: Evangelist Franklin Osborne, evangelist and leader of ‘Divine World Church’, whose church is being investigated by the government is found dead, drugs and alcohol at his bedside table. Quincy is told to come up with the mode of death quickly, everyone wants to know how, and why, he died. On the bedside table forensic doctor Quincy notes an empty tablet box and a bottle of whiskey - successful suicide? Osborne was an incurable diabetic. The public prosecutor's office investigated his church because of embezzlement of profit money. Quincy's autopsy results show no conclusion. However, a voluntary elimination of one's life doesn't appear to the resourceful doctor to be plausible enough. The scientific results are borderline so Quincy asks Asten to authorize a psychological autopsy on the dead evangelist, which might hold some surprises. Was Franklin Osborne murdered, and who wanted him dead?
Has Tom sent anyone his picture yet for a look see? I may have missed it. Yeah, I must have missed it. He'd send it to be fair wouldn't he? Oh, now I'm worried he won't send one...
I haven't seen any mug shots of that self righteous loser Tom Moron floating around on the internet yet.
My guess is that Tom displays a mop of untidy black hair, a slight resemblance of Adolph Hitler and a smirk which says, "I am only here because I am better than all of you."
Richard
Tom-- WHY DO YOU HATE ME?
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
Biggest Award for Foot in Mouth: I was sitting in the Field House, in the middle, front section about half way back, when Les McCullough announced GTA's "problem."
He directed his attention to the women in the audience and told them that they were not tempted to adultery because most of them were not attractive enough to ever find themselves in that circumstance.
Other than Les crying over his fallen buddy, nothing else about that announcement stands out.
I hate to sound callous about that but I feel like my perceptions have been manipulated so much by various Armstrongite leaders, I find such events in retrospect to be of low credibility or value.
Psychologists have determined that people who have an attractive physical appearance are judged to be moral. In fact, they are judged to be better in about every way. GTA took full advantage of this. But he was just a strange guy who attracted strange people.
-- Neo
Bamboo_bends said...
>>>After reading this very strange thread of comments, I further wonder why Tom Mahon can find such ferver in attacking the credentials of GTA for adultery, when HWA had an even darker problem.<<<
Firstly, mentioning GTA's adultery has nothing to do with my "fervour" about anything. I referred to GTA's behaviour to show that those who following him into CGI were misguided. Unless, of course, they know a god who would keep an adulterer in office, to preach to his people against the sin of adultery?
In addition, GTA admitted his sin to his father, who sent him off to repent. When his father and Mr. Portune later visited him, he feigned repentance and was restored to office, which was grave mistake.
Secondly, much has been said about HWA's alleged incest and probable adultery, but no one has produced any evidence to support these allegations. As I have said before, rumours, innuendos and vehement assertions are not proof of guilt.
Richard said:
>>>My guess is that Tom displays a mop of untidy black hair, a slight resemblance of Adolph Hitler and a smirk which says, "I am only here because I am better than all of you."<<<
You are so wrong, I can't emphasise it enough.
Still, according to Augustine, "God teaches some people, but deceives no one." Therefore, to the unwise, the wise are seen as arrogant.
Lussenheide asked...
>>>Tom-- WHY DO YOU HATE ME?<<<
Where did you get this idea from? I do not hate anyone. I may disagree with you, and may be scathing in criticising your opinions, but my responses are not motivated by hatred.
After all, I am a Christian! Which means that I love my neighbour as myself.
DennisDiehl said...
>>>Has Tom sent anyone his picture yet for a look see?<<<
I have no problem in posting a photo of myself, and might get around to it at some point in time.
Richard said:
>>>By the way, the reason this thread is of interest to me personally is because Dave Havir officiated my father's funeral in 1983. My father was a WCG member.<<<
Well, that does not mean that Dave Havir was ever converted. I was baptised by Arthur Suckling in 1975, and Melvin Rhodes officiated at my wedding in 1986. Both of these men are now with UCG. Need I say more?
Still waiting for a picture of Tom. I'd at least like the option of deciding to give or not give a shallow, foolish and judgmental evaluation.
"Unless, of course, they know a god who would keep an adulterer in office, to preach to his people against the sin of adultery?"
Apparently this same God kept a incestuous little drunk in office, so I wouldn't put it past him.
Paul
Self Righteous Tom Moron wrote, "Still, according to Augustine, "God teaches some people, but deceives no one." Therefore, to the unwise, the wise are seen as arrogant.
MY COMMENT - Strange you would quote Augustine. I would have thought you would have quoted Proverbs 1:7 as the source of wisdom's foundation. You quote the words of man over the words of the Bible. No wonder you were so easily deceived by your idol HWA.
Self Righteous Tom Moron wrote:
Richard said:
>>>By the way, the reason this thread is of interest to me personally is because Dave Havir officiated my father's funeral in 1983. My father was a WCG member.<<<
Well, that does not mean that Dave Havir was ever converted. I was baptised by Arthur Suckling in 1975, and Melvin Rhodes officiated at my wedding in 1986. Both of these men are now with UCG. Need I say more?
MY COMMENT: Oh, that's right. I forgot you, Tom Moron, are the judge of a person's conversion. You know their heart and their most intimate thoughts as to whether one is "converted" or not. Typical Armstrongite self righteousness in its purest form.
Richard
Neotherm wrote, "Biggest Award for Foot in Mouth: I was sitting in the Field House, in the middle, front section about half way back, when Les McCullough announced GTA's "problem."
He directed his attention to the women in the audience and told them that they were not tempted to adultery because most of them were not attractive enough to ever find themselves in that circumstance".
MY COMMENT - Neo, that story was funny. I cracked up laughing when I read your post because it is so typical of the generalizations made by "God's ministers" from that WCG era (or, should I say "error").
Remember, God calls "the weak and base things" so McCullough's comment was right in line with that mindset.
By the way, I visited the latest WCG offshoot fraud, Living University, website (it is neither "living" or "a real university", but that is another subject). Anyway, they have this stock photo of this beautiful young coed on the Living U. website. Certainly, in line with McCullough's comment, that coed photo'ed on the Living U. website can't be a real LU student, is she? Is this another Armstrongite fraud? Looks good, tastes bad?
Richard
Well Gavin,
I see you have posted a couple of new topics. I'll call it a night and pay my electronic Bar room tab. Besides, I don't won't you to sic your electronic bar room bouncer on me for the "looks good, tastes bad" comment in my previous post, and the Tom Moron comments from earlier posts in this thread.
Can I buy Dennis Diehl an electronic beer before I leave the bar room? You can put it on my electronic bar tab. I read somewhere that Diehl's WCG life experience was because ""I am only here for the beer."
Next time I travel through South Carolina, I am going to look Dennis up and see if I can't buy him a real beer. That would make Tom a prophet. Wouldn't it?.
Richard
"There's a lot of denial HWA did what he did, but I don't believe anyone actually "caught" GTA in the act either."
What, GTA's video with the masseuse wasn't good enough for you?
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