Friday, 29 February 2008

And now a message from Yahweh

Dateline Rio: Oh strike! Jesus gets zapped from on high. Here's a link to the Daily Mail.

And while we're dealing with the topic of wrath, why not take a Meredithesque moment to reflect on the godly benefits of spanking. Here in New Zealand the practice was recently made illegal, but the conservative "Christian" types have been whining and moaning, gibbering and wailing ever since about their "right" to "discipline" their kids. It's doubtful even this story in USA Today would convince them otherwise.

On a different tangent, Felix Taylor reveals the existence of a brand of ex-WCG member I'd despaired of ever finding: a liberal Catholic. Conservative Catholic converts aren't uncommon, as witnessed by Jared Olar's occasional informative comments, but Janice is somethin' else, and a breath of fresh incense! Check out Felix's blog.

56 comments:

Lussenheide said...

Just call me "Mr. Old School" !

Here is how it worked when I went to school, (and I led the league in detention for cracking jokes and general pranks and mischief)...

1) The teacher had me go to the front of the class and I got a swat.

2) I got sent to the Vice Principal and he gave me a couple more swats, and then he phoned my mother

3) I come home, and first thing in the door, my Mom slaps me in the face and says "How could you embarass your family like this" and then says "just you wait until your old man comes home"

4) Father comes home, tired, has to hear all about it the first minute he's in the door, so you guessed it...It Was THE BELT!

5) You still had to do detention on top of all this!

Now I played alot of baseball, and all of this corporal punishment didnt harm me one bit! In fact the callous that I got on my fanny was just perfect as a "PAD" for sliding into second base! Lol!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee CA USA

Weinland Watch said...

I think the key point to Janice's comment on Felix's blog is that she recognizes her acceptance (even though she rejects some of the dogma) is likely due to the open-mindedness of her particular Catholic congregation.

I was recounted a similar set of experiences by a person who returned, after leaving Armstrongism, to his Judaic roots. The congregation in which he found himself (how he described it) certainly sounded "liberal" to me!

Most religious systems seem to have the reverse problem we did, in WCG: The variances between congregations were often in the form of additional lists of "rules" that were tacked willy-nilly by the ministry onto the pre-existing and immutable legalism that had already been laid down.

In "mainstream" religious systems, the congregations seem to vary from liberal to orthodox, and every flavour in between; but as Janice points out, the believers are never completely turned away, the way the "unconverted" were, from the church.

Questeruk said...

I got swatted, spanked and whacked ten times a day for twenty years.

Never did me any harm!!!!

Anonymous said...

I was spanked a couple of times when I was young- I got the picture after that. No physical damage. No mental damage. Of course, I turned out to be an atheist.


I think the real issue here is ~abuse~ and the problem is any disciplinary action other than speaking in a harsh tone to your child is considered ~abuse~.

I wonder if this law is going to stop some child abuser from abusing his/her children at home? Nope. but what it will do is ensure that kids all across NZ can do whatever the hell they like in public without fear of immediate reprisal.

Paul

Tired Skeptic said...

How quickly they forget...

It has been four years this week since the release of Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ.

Actor James Caviezel, who played Jesus, was struck by lightning not just once, not just twice, but three times during the making of the movie.

It's difficult to know how to feel about that.

Corky said...

Questeruk said...
I got swatted, spanked and whacked ten times a day for twenty years.

Never did me any harm!!!!


Oh yes, it did. You may not recognize the damage but it's there. The very idea that it is okay for that to happen is proof of the damage. This same kind of behavior of abuse keeps being passed along in this same kind of way. Most times it's minor but every once in a while it ends in death or severe injury.

Questeruk said...

Sorry Corky - Don't take my comment seriously - just my British sense of humour - a sort of parody.

I probably shouldn't have used it on this subject.

In reality I don't remember ever having corporal punishment at home, and only once at school.

Anonymous said...

Someone needs to spank Tom.

Tom Mahon said...

Anonymous said...

>>>Someone needs to spank Tom.<<<

Ever so often God gives me a spanking, to knock off some of my rough edges and pull me back from the precipice of sin and wickedness.

To address the topic of child discipline, the bible clearly teaches God fearing parents to spank their children thus: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shall beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"(Pro.23:13-14).

Sociologists, psychologists and so-called child experts have invented the nuclear family, consisting of a couple and 2.2 children.

To support the nuclear family, Dr. Spock wrote the "definitive" child rearing book on, "How to Endure the Torments of Your Children Without Corporal Punishment." BTW, this title is copyright. Sadly, too many parents have bought into it, and the nuclear family has blown up in all of our faces.

Today as never before, we are oppressed by children who are completely out of control. Vast areas of our cities are control by gangs, who have adopted the sub-culture of drug taking, drunkenness, wearing the uniform of non-conformity and listening to insane music, all designed to terrify all decent people, and the elderly in particular.

Personally, I think it is too late to reverse the trend of Satanic defiance, aggression and rebellion that emanates from the youth of today.

Anonymous said...

"Ever so often God gives me a spanking, to knock off some of my rough edges and pull me back from the precipice of sin and wickedness."

No he doesn't. You've been wicked for years, but you didn't know it. It's called self-righteousness.


Paul

Church Corporate Critic said...

I think it is too late to reverse the trend of Satanic defiance, aggression and rebellion that emanates from the youth of today.

Forget youth. It's corporations. And churches. And government. And academia.

And religious nuts who post on forums.

That last one -- maybe not so much Satanic defiance, aggression and rebellion, but the result of not dealing appropriately with obvious truth, incurring a meltdown resulting in a psychotic break.

Tired Skeptic said...

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shall beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"(Pro.23:13-14).

Ah, yes: The Old Testament approach to child rearing. God's children, Israel, wandering and dying in the desert because the children offended the sensibilities of their Father. And those children in Egypt who, through no fault of their own, died in excruciating slavery for up to 200 years as they were left by their Father to suffer as victims under the Egyptians. The Israelites, Children of God, finally in their own land, taken into captivity, disowned and scattered abroad.

The New Testament is much more reassuring:

Col 3:18-21 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Because small children grow up into being teens. There's a lot more to bringing up a child than just making certain that they have restrictions enforced on them. By adolescence they begin the path to becoming independent adults and parents need to realize that they can't enforce lies and hypocrisy any longer, because the children will rebel. It's a formula: Lie and there will be discouragement which will turn into apathy -- but let the slightest amount of freedom appear and the rebellion begins. That's probably as it should be, because an environment of hypocrisy is a dysfunctional one, as all of Herbert Armstrong's "children" should have realized by now.

So it's really best to be consistent. Not only that, but from early on, it should be clear that the parent truly has the child's best interest at heart. Children sense otherwise: It is a gift of perception, which, under an oppressive regime can be killed, along with the exploration and curiosity that a child needs in a safe environment to make appropriate mistakes to be able to develop properly.

And finally, another New Testament perspective on children one which needs to be observed so distorted perception and the resulting insanity does not ensue:

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Good advice, seldom followed by self-righteous blaspheming idolaters speaking great swelling things of which they know nothing as they represent a God they do not know, taking His name in vain and causing even the Gentiles to blaspheme. And sometimes even the godly have a hard time stomaching it, especially when Scripture which never existed is paraphrased to make the Bible say things which never were.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I was very fortunate to be in the RCIA program in a liberal diocese, and my husband is also very liberal (even though born a Catholic in a conservative Catholic country); however, now we live in upstate NY and it is ultra conservative. Still, I am comfortable in the knowledge that I will not be turned away, harassed, or "marked" for choosing to question. Thank you, Gavin.

Anonymous said...

The previous comment was "Janice"--I have yet to choose an identity...
(-:

Kscribe said...

The problem with a good old fashion spanking is that it is seldom effective. I found one of my sons grew into a rage after a few swats. I thought about the "violence" that it teaches. (I used to think that was liberal)I figured out how to control him using the carrot method. It created an environment of peace and understanding. Hence, a closer relationship between a father and son. It also taught him to use his intellect to solve problems. Not violence.

Now for those of us that belonged to armstrongism, a good "beating" was what God would want you to do. How twisted. The harm to children still haunts those kids who are now adults. Herbert Armstrong created The Environment. One of H.A.T.E. and violence. But could this statement be wrong? Consider that anything that was from Herbie's background as a child, what his momma taught him, the music from his era, the religious upbringing, these are the things that he considered to be tried and true. True to God except for the religion part of it. That could and did change. After all, it was just business. A family business that expanded out to become a franchise.

For those of you who have never seen my video THE CHILD this might be a good time.

Kscribe said...

This one is a classic that Tom will just have to put into practice.

Kscribe said...

Check out FACT NET for more on religious nuts with children

Tired Skeptic said...

KScribe has done it again: Referenced The Plain Truth About Child Rearing by Garner Ted Armstrong on the Living Church of God Website, with the booklet quoting J. Edgar Hoover extensively.

Now that's just so wrong!

Not the KScribe part -- the rest of it.

Anonymous said...

"The problem with a good old fashion spanking is that it is seldom effective. I found one of my sons grew into a rage after a few swats."

What was your goal in spanking the child? To soothe him? If so, then yes, spanking is very ineffective.


Paul

Kscribe said...

Paul,

The purpose was to enforce the thought that I was the parent and you are the child. I was taught this method of discipline from my folks. I thought it through and read books that taught other methods that I found more effective.
Try this

Or this other end of the spectrum

Anonymous said...

"The purpose was to enforce the thought that I was the parent and you are the child. I was taught this method of discipline from my folks."

As a child, I always gathered it was to enforce the notion that I shouldn't do what I had been doing anymore, which was usually something serious. My parents didn't spank me just for good measure as it seems was the rule in the WWCG.



I'll check out your link.


Paul

Kscribe said...

"The purpose was to enforce the thought that I was the parent and you are the child."

I should have added "and you better behave as I told you too." This "enforce the notion that I shouldn't do what I had been doing"

Yes that is the point I was trying to express. Thank you.

Tom Mahon said...

Paul said:

>>No he doesn't.<<

Now if it was the season of pantomime, I would have replied, O yes he does!

>>>You've been wicked for years, but you didn't know it<<<

That was certainly true until I was led to repentance. But now, the slightest wrong thought or act leaves me with a guilty conscience.

>>>It's called self-righteousness.<<<

Here, I think you are very much sadly mistaken. At no time have I said that I am righteous, virtuous anything else for that matter. All I have stated is that I am a Christian, and I disagree with most forum members characterisation of HWA as a charlatan.

For the record, I am not offended by anything that people say about me. So don't feel you have to pull your punches, for I will never ask Gavin to ban or censor anyone's comments.

Anonymous said...

" But now, the slightest wrong thought or act leaves me with a guilty conscience."

You are unaware that your behavior and mindset is wrong.


Paul

Anonymous said...

BB here. Didn't feel like signing in.

All I can say, is that I don't mind the blog being shared with a masochist. We as people, all have our needs, and I'd just as soon see folks able to fulfill some of those needs here in a safe laboratory situation than I would in an environment where they could actually be victimized and physically injured.

BB

DennisDiehl said...

"...for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shall beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"

I know your mind is filtering out words like "beat" "beat him with a rod" and "he shall not die" in the western mode of thinking. However in the Eastern mode. Beat means beat, stick means stick and just short of "to death" means just that. Think about it. It's assult and battery.

Everyone is different and there is no one formula for everyone. The Bible is the not the gold standard of how to treat people for the most part, and in particular kids.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Bible-Times-Children-And-Well-Keep-the-Flames-of-Molech-on-for-Ya!&id=232895

Balanced love and compassion with teaching

DennisDiehl said...

Conclusion:

Go get a concordance, or topical Bible and look up "snuggle, kiss, blowbelly, "a boo", picnic, swimming, hugs, vacation, free time, love you mom, love you dad, love you son, love you sis, sports, college, education, free thinking, respect, reading, children's literature, Goldilocks, quiet time, caress, self esteem, mental health, smiling, mommy, daddy, bedtime, stuffed animals, puppets, cook out, fishing, zoo, did I say "blowbellies?" .... oh you know, the good words. Good luck... and we'll keep the flames of Molech on for ya!

Anonymous said...

Couldn't find those words, Den!

What a breath of fresh kaneh bosn!

Kscribe said...

Tom said...
For the record, I am not offended by anything that people say about me. So don't feel you have to pull your punches, for I will never ask Gavin to ban or censor anyone's comments.

I feel the same. But Tom, you really get on your HWA horse and preach most the time. Try to interact as a human being. Not a priest.

Anonymous said...

Nothing ruins a beautiful landscape like a Giant Jebus.


Paul

Anonymous said...

The WCG emphasis on the importance and mechanics of introducing small children to the wonderful benefits of pain was part of larger distorted views toward the world. But the problem is not simply that the WCG distorted the Bible. The problem, here, is in the Bible. Heb. 12:6 says God "chastens and scourges every son whom he receives".

Horrible. I do not fear blaspheming when I say I don't give a damn what Heb. 12:6 says: scourging children is just flat wrong. (The reason I do not fear this is blasphemy is because I do not assume Heb. 12:6 represents God simply because its author, backed by hundreds of years of canonical tradition, have assured us that it does.)

There comes a time to pick and choose what is right and wrong in the Bible--in other words to read and think critically, as an adult. Time to grow up. Time to stop the carnage and the abuse--in this case the abuse of the defenseless, children.

In 1979 Sweden became the first country in the world to ban all corporal punishment of children. Finland followed in 1984, Denmark in 1986, Norway in 1987, and about a dozen or more countries since and growing. The landmark Swedish law said: "Children are entitled to care, security, and a good upbringing. Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating punishment." In 1979 the Swedish government sent a booklet to every family in Sweden entitled "Can you bring up children successfully without smacking and spanking?" It discussed how to bring up children with other methods, and emphasized that corporal punishment can cause both physical and psychological harm. The booklet pointed out that adults who were given corporal punishment as children are more likely to be depressed or violent themselves; that corporal punishment most often produces in its victims anger, resentment, and low self-esteem; and that children who are spanked regularly are more likely to lie, be disoebedient at school, bully others, and show less remorse for wrongdoing. Many studies since then have reinforced all these points. In 1989 the United Nations approved the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Somalia and the United States remain the only two nations on earth not to sign. (In Somalia's case, that is because there has been no functioning government to sign.) Read Jordan Riak "Plain Truth about Spanking" [no WCG connection, despite the title], find through google search. Also books by Alice Miller.
-- Greg Doudna

Tired Skeptic said...

"Trust no one, the truth is out there"

The word "respect" is in 34 verses of Scripture in the Bible.

The word "kiss" is in the Bible any number of times, the most significant mention seems to be in Luke 22:48.

The word "college" is in the Bible twice.

John 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing.

There are a couple of other words not found in Scripture:

Millennium, cat, cats, homosexual, sanity, narcissist, police, concert, Christmas, China, triangle, hospital, trout, bass, planet, retribution, music, significant, decade, calendar.

Just have to love that last one....

Anonymous said...

"...I do not assume Heb. 12:6 represents God simply because its author, backed by hundreds of years of canonical tradition, have assured us that it does."


Then how in the hell do you know if any of the Bible is true? If this part of the Bible is not true, then what about the fantastical account of a corpse coming back to life after lying in a tomb for three days?




Paul

Tired Skeptic said...

As for real child abuse, consider four year olds napping on a blanket while the minister rants about the horrors of the death, doom, destruction, devastation of the Great Tribulation: Adults who grew up during that era still have nightmares today and some are still in counseling.

Also up there is week after week after week of being subjected to ministers talking about homosexuality and how they were abused as teenagers by their alcoholic parents -- great for those told to honor their father and mother as the first commandment with promise: The promise being that when they grow up, they will have quite a warped distorted perception of the world as being victims of the Stockholm Syndrome.

DennisDiehl said...

woo hoo...the first "Diehl" grandboy just arrived on the planet! Pray he's not like his grandpa! (That would be me)

:)

Anonymous said...

Congratulations Dennis Diehl! May your new grandbaby be as free from religious tyranny as you are!

A question for Janice, should she decide to return:

Do you and/or your husband get any pressure from the members of your new conservative congregation to "conform"? Or do you feel some underlying tension that you wouldn't, if you were conservative yourselves?

I'm just curious.

DennisDiehl said...

Paul said:

Nothing ruins a beautiful landscape like a Giant Jebus.

Maybe we're seeing the first time A Deity tazers the second member of his eternal oneness?

Anonymous said...

Just before this happened to Jebus, a loud voice was heard all across the valley, "Don't Taze me Dude!" And then it hit.

Bamboo_bends said...

I thought it was necessary until I had a daughter. My wife and I differed on whether spanking was appropriate or not. After seeing that my daughter responded better to my wife's positive reinforcement I abandoned spanking altogether.

I think with boys, there may be times when it is necessary. They tend to push the boundaries a bit more than girls do. Girls view boundaries as proof mommy and daddy love them, boys view them as ground to be tested as in power structure.

I was spanked maybe 10 times in my life. And all but one case, I really had it coming. Whether it damaged me for life? I don't know.

Kscribe said...

Bamboo_bends said...

>>I think with boys, there may be times when it is necessary. <<

No, the boys respond best to what I wrote in a previous post.

As far as girls go...well just don't ask the so called Dr. Merrydeath! He would be arrested and convicted of child molestation in this day and age! You know, bare bottom spankings on a girl..........

Now, where did I lay that article were the "Rod" bragged about his daughter and wife getting spanked?

I must admit that it is prime for a porno film "script" but then again I must put the question to that wcg minister that claimed he did just that! Anyone remember his name??????

Anonymous said...

Kscribe,

Can you give us a hint?

My all time favorite was the WCG minister who I remember told the Baltimore WCG congregation from the pulpit that the way to handle a rebellious wife was to rape her!

Richard

Anonymous said...

Congratulations Dennis Diehl!!!!

Of course, I have to ask - upon birth, did your grandson pop out and proclaim, "Greetings friends around the world"?

Richard

Kscribe said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kscribe,
Can you give us a hint?

MERRYDEATH

mel said...

A few thoughts...

I fail to see much love in the "spare the rod..." approach to childrearing. Sounds more like "childforcing" to me.

And it's not uncommon for the parents to look at their hitting their child as a microcosm of a cosmic "good vs. evil" battle, thus resulting in a twisted justification of abuse.
The deaths and harms from such an approach best not be justified.

What's a parent to do when commanded by God to "spare not the rod" when correcting his children, and it doesn't seem to be working?
Why, hit HARDER and MORE....it's GOD'S WAY, after all!
I saw this lots in Herbie's cult of garbage.
How narrow-minded overly simplistic can one get? VERY, when learning child rearing(or whatever else) from a scumbag like Armstrong.

It's ignorant to think that such an approach is God's way. It often breeds disrespect, hate, hiding, resentment, loss of healthy self esteem, harm on different levels, and kicking the one lower on the totem pole. Oh, and the occasional mass murderer.

Perhaps Tom looks forward to an imaginary time in which he thinks he'll be a "God as God is God" and he'll be mass-murdering those who reject his brand of ass-hole-ism.
Of course, it will only be because of love, and absolute necessity, but he'll really HATE to have to do it....
kind of like Homer Simpson distraught and sobbing at have to eat his pet lobster Pinchy, after it died from the heat in the hot tub.

Oh, but I digress.
Just don't SPARE THAT ROD ON YOUR KIDS!
Just think about that imaginary time in the past which was so much better(and 99 44/100% Satan-free!) because of liberal use of beating-rods.

So let's forget all that high-falootin' psychology stuff.

It's nice to hit children, knowing God is smiling upon me for doing so. And heck, it gives me practice at being a "God as God is God", like I'm gonna be in the World Tomorrey.

Bamboo_bends said...

Kscribe, I catch your drift. Having grown up in the WCG during the "spanking years" I was just glad my parents never bought into that brutal brand of "rearing" that I saw some of my friends get.

One man, who was with Flurry when he started up the PCG (and died shortly later of a strange sinus condition), spanked his kids so hard they had leather butts.

Those kids grew with all kinds of problems. He brutalized those kids. I'd say their name but for the sake of the kids.

As to whether it harmed my self-esteem or whatever, I think the whole WCG mentality of the "heart that is wicked above all things" did more to ruin my self esteem than any spanking I got.

Anonymous said...

All our children were spanked in a responsible way - except the last, unspanked, who became the 'black sheep' The others are 'upstanding' and well-adjusted.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations Dennis!

Lussenheide said...

How exciting Dennis! Im sure you are very proud!

PS-Dont forget the official dogma and legend...Vitamin K is at its highest level on the Eighth Day ;-)

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Byker Bob said...

Congratulations, Dennis.

Hope everything continues to go well for all.

BB

Anonymous said...

"I was spanked maybe 10 times in my life. And all but one case, I really had it coming. Whether it damaged me for life? I don't know."


I think I was spanked maybe 15 times in my whole life. But you and I are probably serial killers with amnesia, or we sexually and physically brutalize our families but won't admit to it on this blog. Spanking ~had~ to have had some lasting negative effect on us because spanking always produces emotional and physical damage. Always. Maybe we could pitch in and receive counseling at the same time to save some money. What do you say?


Paul

Corky said...

Whipping, beating or "spanking" your kids teaches them one thing; that you are bigger than they are and you can beat 'em up. Another thing it teaches them is to fear you, not respect, FEAR.

Does it "make them mind you"? Of course, while you are watching, but it won't keep them from doing something else that gets 'em beat up.

It's called testing the limits. They are forced to do that in order to find out just what's going to cause them to get beat up and what's not, because they don't know and they do need to know.

The thing is, if it wasn't for the beatings, they wouldn't be forced to test the limits.

Another thing kids learn from beatings is to beat up on someone when you are mad at 'em.

The one thing that kids don't learn from beatings, whippings and spankings is "right behavior" because it doesn't teach that, it only teaches your revenge for something they've done wrong that they didn't know was wrong. They only know that it was a wrong thing to do because it got them beat up, they still won't know why it was wrong.

By the time they are old enough to figure all that out, it's too late to teach them "right behavior". By then they have learned that abuse is right behavior for parents and then it's time for a new generation . . .

Lussenheide said...

If dogs, elephants, dolphins and whales can be trained to do absolutely amazing things without BEATING them, then why cant humans be trained without beating?

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

"By then they have learned that abuse is right behavior for parents and then it's time for a new generation . ."

Are you accusing me of absuing my children, Corky? I want to get this straight.


Paul

Corky said...

Anonymous said...
"By then they have learned that abuse is right behavior for parents and then it's time for a new generation . ."

Are you accusing me of absuing my children, Corky? I want to get this straight.

Nope.

Anonymous said...

For Weinlandwatch:

No, we have never felt pressure to conform--but, then, we are both quiet and tend to live and let live. We have noticed that, even in this ultra conservative area, so do others. We have found, in general, that one is left alone (when one chooses to be left alone) to worship, serve, and praise God in peace-and also to question. For me, it has been the complete flip side of the Armstrong movement--of which I was forced to be a member for 40 years (from age 6 to 46-I am now 53)--I call those the "wilderness" years.
So, in a nutshell, while we do not "shout from the rooftops" our disagreements, we are not afraid to discuss them with other Catholics--no worry about being "turned in" to the "authorities", and we have (again) never been turned away or refused communion. If we lived in a small village in, say, Italy or Ireland, it might be a different story...Janice

Weinland Watch said...

That's nice Janice. I'm glad you have found a congregation that you are happy with, and that works for you. Thanks for the clarification!