Friday, 29 February 2008

Ekklesia

One of the earliest and best information sites on WCG has been updated. Bill Ferguson's Ekklesia was hugely influential at the time of "the changes", and Bill advises: "I've cleaned up all the broken links (at least the ones I've found so far) and will be reconfiguring the site to be the new home of the ekklesia mailing list."

In the mid-90s Ekklesia was one of the first WCG-related websites I discovered as I got up to speed with Internet technology. Others around at that time were Mark Tabladillo's site, the Painful Truth, and Dee-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's Exit and Support monstrosity. The original Ambassador Watch and Missing Dimension sites (now defunct) owed an awful lot to Bill's inspiration.

Bill is one of the good guys, and there's a lot of value on offer at Ekklesia. Definitely worth bookmarking!

54 comments:

Church Corporate Critic said...

The history section clearly illustrates the immature undefined level 0 corporation of the Capability Maturity Model.

The ministers of 1972 truly struggled to be competent in a completely dysfunctional environment, which, of course, is utterly impossible.

Anonymous said...

Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert
Dee Hubbert

There - I said her name 12 times.

Anonymous said...

Oh, man! Now she's going to appear! At least that was supposed to be the way to summon Beetlegeuse!

Tired Skeptic said...

there's a lot of value on offer at Ekklesia

That might be so, but, it is hoped that Bill will get rid of the annoying formatting which makes the text next to impossible to read. Clean and simple is the watchword for formatting such a site.

Beyond that, it is yet another community of people who have extracted themselves from the clutches of Armstrongism -- at least to a degree.

It may be helpful for people to realize that the core of all the problems faced by people from the Radio Church of God and the Worldwide Church of God with all the xCGs is one thing: Herbert Armstrong lusted to be royalty. He wanted to consort with kings and despots and be considered an equal. Nothing else mattered to him. Once people come to understand that underlying sickness as a motivational factor, the explanation of everything which followed is relatively simple to comprehend [with the notable exception of one or two people].

It wasn't just Heili Selassie, the King of Thailand, the King of Norway... it was also Ferdinand Marcos.

Herbert Armstrong managed to spend billions of dollars we sent to him to create an environment that would open the doors to him, but the foundation was laid when he set a goal of having $10 shirts in the 1920s. He began wanting the acceptance of "Corporate Royalty" to prove to himself just how important he was, until he finally was able to meet the real thing -- people with gold crowns and all.

Herbert Armstrong wasn't so good in relating to people of what he thought was the lower class. He was terribly embarrassed to be caught doing manual labor as was demonstrated by his comments about his having to stack wood for money to keep going. He whined about being reduced to nothing, until he had his psychotic break and became a religious nut by attempting to prove his wife wrong: It was even more humiliation and he just couldn't take it. He did get his revenge, though, by forming a cult where he finally achieved his lifetime goal.

It's just too bad he never did it on his own and had to use other people's money to do it, but it's all about the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and, especially, the pride of life.

It's hard to say what the Armstrongists get out of following such a morally sick person because it is certain they will never achieve the royalty status by following his methodologies, even though there are so many pretenders to the throne out there....

Tom Mahon said...

Douglas harangue/rant:

>>>Herbert Armstrong managed to spend billions of dollars we sent to him to create an environment that would open the doors to him,..<<<

If what you say bears any resemblance to the truth, it just shows how easy it is to dupe people like you. Although, I doubt you had billions of dollars to send to anyone.

Still, when you are berried like the rich man, and lift up your head in hell, and see HWA in Abraham's bosom, you may wish to ask him for a drop of water to assuage your torment. And when your request is rejected, you may ask Abraham to send someone to warn the rest of the cabal to mend their ways lest they join you in the flames.

But since misery loves company, your torment might appear more bearable if the cabal join you in the flames. Together, with cacophonous voices, you can continue to hurl abuse at HWA, while he rejoices in the glory of God.

Anonymous said...

Tom Mahon,

Give the self-righteous, judgemental, prickly side of you a rest...PLEASE?

Steve said...

Tom Mahon said...
"If what you say bears any resemblance to the truth, it just shows how easy it is to dupe people like you....blah, blah, blah."

Typical ACOGer response!

Anonymous said...

I think Tom Moron meant "buried" not "berried". And of course the preacher of the way of give, and his deity would refuse to even give a drop of water to the victims they are torturing.

Herbster and his savior, along with Tom Moron and the like with take great pleasure and rejoice while seeing those people being tormented for failing to be predestined to salvation.

I would rather suffer with the "cabal" than spend an eternity with such hate filled "saved" people. Refusing to give even a mere a drop of water to assuage the torment. What a sick and warped mind you have.... you must be a man after your Gods own heart!!!

Thomas Munson

Byker Bob said...

Specific personal recollections of Herbert W. Armstrong's behavior towards others present conflicting examples. I never recall him fellowshipping with the brethren prior to a sermon or Bible Study, or after conducting the same. His limo driver would transport him to the services, special accomodations would be made to quickly get him in the door, and then he would be whisked off and taken to his home immediately following services. This was his behavioral pattern at headquarters.

Yet, each year, there was a reception at AC in Pasadena, where he would greet and shake hands with entering Freshmen. He was also said to be a very charming host when groups of students were invited to his home. He drank wine, played the piano, and apparently cracked some jokes. Now it could be argued that both of these examples were part of the "Herb Show", and that he was charming when on display, while the missed opportunities to fellowship and relate to the congregation somehow didn't rise to meet his criteria for the value of his time. I don't know.

We were encouraged to have the servant mentality as WCG members. HWA plainly did not have this same mentality. While he met with world leaders, despots, and dignitaries, it is plain that he did not leave any lasting impression on them, at least not of anything close to the magnitude as that of Jesus Christ, Apostle Paul, or the other apostles, most of whom were imprisoned, martyrred, or crucified by the dignitaries. Moses and the prophets were not treated very kindly by the powerful, either.

I believe all of us would like to be known and accepted as equals by people of importance. It's human nature. However, it's not a consuming drive for most of us. One would think that a religious leader would seek the approval of God moreso than man.

BB

Anonymous said...

Self Righteous Tom Moron wrote:

"If what you say bears any resemblance to the truth, it just shows how easy it is to dupe people like you. Although, I doubt you had billions of dollars to send to anyone".

MY COMMENT - It just shows how easy people including yourself were duped by HWA.

I think most rational people reading Tired Skeptic's post understand he was referring to the billions of dollars extorted collectively from members 1934 - 1986 and beyond.

It is billions of dollars easily.

But then, Tom Moron isn't rational, is he?

Richard

Neotherm said...

Tom:

The fact that HWA was a heretic is easily established. But most Armstrongites will not accept that kind of careful, academic analysis.

So let me offer another "proof". I suppose I could come up with 7 proofs, if I tried. This is a more experiential proof.

I was in the Field House in Big Sandy listening to HWA speak. He was giving a sermon on the Sabbath. And, HWA recounted, one of the "younger men" at headquarters approached HWA with the startling revelation that HWA was the "messenger" to the Philadelphia Era mentioned in the Book of Revelations. HWA, through the way he spoke and his body language behind the pulpit, clearly was very proud of this. And he told the rapt congregation that "that man needs to be ordained an evangelist."

So, apparently, to become an evangelist, someone need only find a way to stroke HWA's ego. Can a good tree bear bad fruit?

After coming to know real Christians who are led by the Holy Spirit, I came to realize how different the leadership of the WCG was in behavior from these real Christians.

In the years that I saw HWA down at Big Sandy, Pasadena and other places, his predominant mood was one of anger, anger at lay members principally because there was not enough money in the coffers. I did not see anything that would make me believe that the Holy Spirit was present in his life.

My guess is that he is not remotely in Abraham's bosom and that we had better hope that there is some post-mortem process that will address his situation. Christ is his judge. All we have are the physical evidences and the right to conjecture.

You may say this is just subjective and is not a proof of anything. But to Armstrongites, nothing is ever a proof of anything if they don't want to believe it. You see, I was an Armstrongite for over 30 years and I know how these people think.

I can say that what undermines Armstrongism more dramatically than anything else, is the uncompromising and worshipful attitude that Armstrongites have towars HWA. It is as if Armstrongites are all wearing a huge, hot pink, feather embellished hat, annoucing that they are odd, that everyone else can see except Armstrongites.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

"Together, with cacophonous voices, you can continue to hurl abuse at HWA, while he rejoices in the glory of God."

Tis a sick, perverted diety who bestows glory upon an incestuous criminal.

Poor Tom. His reward for all of his efforts will be eternal sleep. No rod of iron. No position of royalty. No traveling to the outer reaches of space to kreate life. No basking in the glory of an omnipotent being. No ultimate knowledge. Nothing. Tom will just cease to exist and will know no more, just like HWA, which is too bad. He got off the hook.

Paul

Lussenheide said...

Tom wrote:

Still, when you are buried like the rich man, and lift up your head in hell, and see HWA at Abraham's bosom...

MY COMMENT:
Do we dare to ask...What other "Bosoms" might HWA be found at?

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

Tom Goofed:

"Still, when you are BERRIED like the rich man, and lift up your head in hell,"

Is it just me or is it hilarious how the karma fairy keeps visiting Mr. Tom Say It Right or Show Your Ignorance?

Tom Mahon said...

Charlie said...

>>>Give the self-righteous, judgemental, prickly side of you a rest...PLEASE?<<<

God's admonition to his people is, "You shall not respect persons in judgement; but you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgement is God's."

However, just as Elijah laughed at the folly of the prophets of Baal, the righteous are to laugh at the destruction of the wicked, who say to God, "Depart from us; and what can the Almighty do for them?." So when their destruction comes, "The righteous see it, and are glad: and the innocent laugh them to scorn."

The righteous employs the same divine laughter, that God uses to laugh at the destruction of the wicked. So God says, "Because I have called and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes."

So the righteous joining God in laughing at the destruction of the wicked is fitting. In fact, failure to do so would not identify the righteous with the judgement God.

Tom Mahon said...

Lussenheide said...

>>>MY COMMENT:
Do we dare to ask...What other "Bosoms" might HWA be found at?<<

You are welcome to ask, and TS/Douglas Becker may have an answer for you.

BTW, I have not forgotten that you ducked my question thus: "Did you not learn about the Holy Days from HWA? Or did you learn about them while you were bullying those boys that weren't as big as you?

Also, I have not forgotten that TS/The Painful Truth/DB did not respond to the doctrines that COG7 ministers don't understand. Of course, I hesitate to accuse DB/TS of being ignorant of these doctrines, as well!

Just for record, DB thought that he could disguise his identity under the alias TS. But I rumbled him, and could have delayed letting him know, so that he could continue in his fantasy world of self delusion. But my kind heart thought it would be better to put him out of his misery!

Anonymous said...

"So the righteous joining God in laughing at the destruction of the wicked is fitting"

And there it is folks. Tom, unlike many others, has dropped all pretenses. This is the end product of Armstrongism (or any other legalistic Christian sect).



Paul

Tom Mahon said...

Steve said...

Tom Mahon said...
>>>"If what you say bears any resemblance to the truth, it just shows how easy it is to dupe people like you....blah, blah, blah."<<<

Steve>>Typical ACOGer response!<<

May be typical, but true.

BTW, thank you for disagreeing with Gavin's decision to ban me from commenting of the thread, Big Trouble in Big Sandy." You may disagree with much of what I say, but I respect your courage in speaking up, and your attempt to be impartial. I wish I could say the same for others, but I can't.

Tom Mahon said...

Thomas Munson

>>I think Tom Moron meant "buried" not "berried".<<

You are clutching at straws, perhaps your resignation The Pack of Lies is making you feel that your are drowning.

Munson>>>Herbster and his savior, along with Tom Moron and the like (sic)with will take great pleasure and rejoice while seeing those people being tormented for failing to be predestined to salvation.<<<

The potter has power over the clay, you may be surprised to learn!

Anonymous said...

Tom said:

"The potter has power over the clay, you may be surprised to learn!"

No, I doubt anyone here is unfamiliar with that particular concept. Some pots do, however, crack and well Tom...

Perhaps someday, when the love of God fills the world, we can berry the hatchet

Lussenheide said...

Gavin and all:

The forum was a much more interesting place, educational, and "on topic" on the couple of threads where "Tommy" was not allowed during a "test marketing" of his absence.

Is there any chance that Tommy can be banished to the "Land of Nod, East of Eden"??

Any seconds to the motion, tabled to the Chairman??

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee,CA USA

Anonymous said...

Gavin does an excellent job of introducing fresh perspectives and topics to discuss, unfortunately Tom seems to always interject on the topic with something I'm sure he feels comes from 'On High'...then it is all downhill from there.

As evidenced by Tom's postings he is obviously not a nice person. I'm not in favor of banning him but perhaps if we were to ignore him unless he has something relevant to the subject matter that doesn't stink of haughtiness and judgement things would work out better.

DennisDiehl said...

I would think ignore is a way to go. Ban seems kinda un-American. However, Tom and his form or religious zealotry is a burden to listen to and meaningless. It goes nowhere and informs us of nothing.

Tom's comments are like a fart in the middle of a good conversation with friends. It eventually gets diluted, but we still have to endure it for a bit as we note its presence.

Steve said...

Lussenheide said...
Gavin and all:

The forum was a much more interesting place, educational, and "on topic" on the couple of threads where "Tommy" was not allowed during a "test marketing" of his absence.

Is there any chance that Tommy can be banished to the "Land of Nod, East of Eden"??

Any seconds to the motion, tabled to the Chairman??

MY COMMENT: Bill, you sound like a UCGer. What's the matter? Does Tom take you out of your comfort zone?

Anonymous said...
"Perhaps someday, when the love of God fills the world, we can berry the hatchet."

MY COMMENT: The only place Armstrongites wnat to "berry" the hatchet is in our backs, and then the will laugh, and laugh, and laugh!

Tom Mahon said...
Steve said...

Tom Mahon said...
"BTW, thank you for disagreeing with Gavin's decision to ban me from commenting of the thread, Big Trouble in Big Sandy." You may disagree with much of what I say, but I respect your courage in speaking up, and your attempt to be impartial. I wish I could say the same for others, but I can't.

MY COMMENT: You're welcome. I had enough of banning people in Herbie's church. It's a shame most here, including Gavin, haven't learned that lesson.

Anonymous said...

Lussenheide wrote:

Is there any chance that Tommy can be banished to the "Land of Nod, East of Eden"??

Any seconds to the motion, tabled to the Chairman??


I wholeheartedly second or whatever number I come in at (I stopped here because this was such a grand idea!) the motion. I get so tired of him just throwing out the same old tired venom that I just stop reading after seeing a couple of responses from him, which means that whatever meaningful contributions are below that get missed.

BTW, I'm surprised that although Tom referred to a scriptural reference with his "berry bosom" comment, no one has yet pointed out his error of apparently believing that there is a living, breathing afterlife in a place called hell (I often wonder if James I's scribes didn't throw this in as a nod to Dante).

Go ahead, Tom, mock true Christianity and the fruit of God's spirit and reveal how much you are your father Satan's child when you insult, disparage, attack and in general, with serious spelling issues, try to annihilate me with your words (perhaps the book of James is not in your Bible). I won't waste my time to come back to see the same trite and hackneyed exposition that always follows.

Questeruk said...

I am very much against banning anyone on this forum. Our past church history was if someone doesn’t agree - chuck them out. Let’s not apply the same standards here.

Tom can be very annoying, but he is an individual too, and entitled to his opinions. We surely expect to have differences in ideas. If you don’t like them you can ignore them.

Some things are probably best ignored anyway. For example Paul’s insistence of a big nothing as the future for everyone is as dismal as Tom and his God laughing in delight at the suffering of the wicked.

‘Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Says the God that I worship ‘and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

I find this far more encouraging than either Tom’s or Paul’s pessimistic viewpoints.

ripley said...

Dennis's fart analogy is one of the most insightful comments in the history of the churches of God.

Anonymous said...

Paul’s pessimistic viewpoints.


What is so pessimistic about reality? Would you call a person who does not believe in Zeus a pessimistic person?

And what do you mean "nothing?" The use of that word implies that without a supernatural diety in the sky, there is indeed "nothing." Let's all hang ourselves in the closet.

As far as Tom goes, I agree. Don't ban him. I experienced enough of that on a few of the LCG/UCG forums. It's Their domain. They banned people because they could not gainsay the views that were being prevented. Let Tom blather on. He is a reminder of what we were or could have been, and what many people still are. If you are a Christian, this is a serious matter. That mindset, according the Bible, will result in wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Paul

Questeruk said...

Paul said:-

“And what do you mean "nothing?" The use of that word implies that without a supernatural deity in the sky, there is indeed "nothing." Let's all hang ourselves in the closet”.

Paul, The “nothing” I am referring to is a quote from what you yourself wrote just a few hours ago on this thread - you wrote:-

“Poor Tom. His reward for all of his efforts will be eternal sleep. No rod of iron. No position of royalty. No traveling to the outer reaches of space to kreate life. No basking in the glory of an omnipotent being. No ultimate knowledge. Nothing. Tom will just cease to exist and will know no more, just like HWA, which is too bad. He got off the hook.”

I am taking this to mean that after death you are stating there is “nothing”, presumably you mean for everyone, not just HWA & Tom. If I have misunderstood your meaning, then I apologise, but this would seem to be consistent with your assertion that there is no God.

To me, believing all the talented people that have lived there lives (& the untalented as well of course), at death that is the end of their ideas, creativity etc. is pessimistic. A belief in a God that is laughing at the fate of people suffering in agony is also pessimistic in my view.

Neither of these things means that you or Tom are necessarily pessimistic people in life – it’s just that both your views of what happens at death don’t seem to me to be a ‘barrel of fun’.

Anonymous said...

"To me, believing all the talented people that have lived there lives (& the untalented as well of course), at death that is the end of their ideas, creativity etc. is pessimistic."

I understand your original point. Yes, after death, "nothing."

It may be pessimistic, but at least it's not fantastical and unsubtantiated.


Paul

Anonymous said...

Has anyone received a picture of Tom?

Byker Bob said...

I am an optimist! (Watch out!!! Here comes an Ambassador College cliche!!!!) "Tom has come here to change." Let's not ban him. We might find that we've elliminated a future friend!

BB

Tired Skeptic said...

And all it took this time was one push of one hot button to produce wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Tired Skeptic said...

I learned about the Feasts on my at the age of 11 while I was reading through the Old Testament without any "benefit" from a false prophet cult leader.

Tired Skeptic said...

Ah, can the death threats from "Christian" Armstrongists be far behind... again.

Anonymous said...

Dennis Diehl wrote, "Tom's comments are like a fart in the middle of a good conversation with friends. It eventually gets diluted, but we still have to endure it for a bit as we note its presence."

MY COMMENT - Dennis, it could be argued that self righteous Tom Moron IS THE FART in the middle of a good conversation with friends, not his comments.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Tired Skeptic wrote, "Ah, can the death threats from "Christian" Armstrongists be far behind... again."

MY COMMENT - Self Righteous Tom Moron, the Judge of Eternal Salvation over all of us, has already given you a death threat with his ASSinine statement:

"Still, when you are berried like the rich man, and lift up your head in hell, and see HWA in Abraham's bosom, you may wish to ask him for a drop of water to assuage your torment".

Sounds like a Lake of Fire death threat to me.

Richard

mel said...

To Gavin:
Thanks for the heads-up on the Ekklesia site.
And as far as the ESN site goes, I think "monstrosity" is a good term. I know of someone who submitted information to them only to have ESN INSIST that the person MUST have counseling of their variety. When the person politely declined, ESN got quite nasty with her.

And to Tom:
You may be surprised to learn as you suffer in Hell with "berry bosom"(purple nurple) torment, and you lift your head and cry out for just one drop of neosporin, that your request will be denied as the innocent laugh and scorn you.
However, you may be happy to learn that Herbie WILL blow farts at you while you pucker and kiss his butt and insist they are the sweetest smells ever. Herbie may shower you with other gifts, too! Behold, thine torment shall golden be.
Verily I say unto you, O Tom, are you ready to receive the "Gifts of the Herbie", spoken in the Perfect Language through his flapping lips?
Of course you are, just more of the same-old same-old for your appetite!
Bon appetit!

Bamboo_bends said...

Tom Mahamster said....

"Still, when you are BERRIED like the rich man, and lift up your head in hell,"



BTW,...Is that like saying "that rich guy has heuvos?"

He's berried like BULL!

Bill Ferguson said...

Thanks for the kind comments Gavin!

The site does need reworking, what can I say, I've neglected the web page for years. I'm fixing it up.

I shut down the list for for a while but popular demand brought it back, people enjoyed talking to each other, and now its become a family of sorts. We don't talk a whole lot about the WCG anymore, we're pretty far past those petty concerns.

I've kept historical documents online for those that may need them. The trajectory out of the WCG/PCG/UCG/LCG etc still seems to roughly the same learning curve in spite of all the years. Some can deny the obvious for decades. But we don't lose hope for any of our former brethren.

Also thanks to others for the constructive comments regarding navigation on the site, that will be changing shortly, as will the background screen that is now far too short for modern HD monitors. Like who would have thought monitors would someday exceed 1000 pixels in width back in 1994? :)

It has been wonderful to watch in action what I inspired, taking to levels I never could have done on my own by others. There are so many good resources on Armstrongism now and they are done so well. I don't control them, I don't create them, I don't even know some of them, yet order and creativity comes out of the chaos. Imagine that, WCGers with brains! Some with theology degrees even! Armstrong never put to use the talent he had within his organization! It was always about HIM.

It was this concept of distributed cellular growth that I tried in vain to get Joe Tkach to change the WCG towards in January 1997, but he insisted on sticking to the brutalizing hierarchy of HWA. Joe certainly has more money than I do I suppose...but his church is nearly gone.

PS: I had one run-in with someone at ESN, I don't know if it was "Dee who shall not be named" but they seemed to me to be bit paranoid. ESN seemed to be upset at one time that I had a public domain WCG sourced document they also had and suggested I pilfered it from them. I got it from a different source. I had no patience for that accusatory nonsense. They suffer from a serious lack of sense of humor. Not someone I'd counsel with. Although they might have the right to claim to be the first online repository of WCG information, if you include their history on Compuserve prior to the invention of the Web browser in 1993-94.

If my memory is correct I think they charged for their information or their newsletter, but I might be wrong about that. They were kind of like AR, but set up as cottage industry that was going to make a living out of deprogramming members out of the WCG.

The truth is, nobody could have done a better job of deprogramming members out of the WCG than Joe Tkach Jr and Greg Albrecht! Although I don't think that was their intent.

Anonymous said...

I'm against cutting farts in public, especially during pleasant conversation. Ever notice that they seem to smell worse when an Armstrongite lets them?

Kscribe said...

Glad to see Bill is back in business!

As for Tom, evil is good and good is evil. Your world view is twisted. Seek help while you can.

Anonymous said...

HWA the saint? before cannonizing him, maybe one should go down to the courthouse, read the divorce transcripts between he and Ramona, see what he pleaded the 5th on. Why would one plead the 5th if not for fear of being prosecuted for anti-moral conduct unbecoming a human...

As for the 18 revealed truths... look at the COG from the 1700s... they also believed in 12 tribes of Israel, Passover, Holy Days, etc. nothing new there.. just one man reading what they had to say and putting it into his own words and bi-line. get over this kissing the toe of the profit. if you want to do that, then go to Rome and kiss the toe of st. Peter. (that is if you want to take a chance of getting a good viral disease from all the slobber that others leave.

really Tom, get a life

Baashabob said...

To Bill Ferguson:

Hi Bill. If Gavin says your site is worthwhile then that is good enough for me. As long as you are fixing things up perhaps you could resurrect the dead links to join. I have tried both listserv@quango.net and sysadmin@quango.net and both come back as "recipient unknown".

Bob E.

Anonymous said...

' I understand your original point. Yes, after death, "nothing."

It may be pessimistic, but at least it's not fantastical and unsubtantiated Paul '

Can Paul prove there's nothing after death?

Anonymous said...

"Can Paul prove there's nothing after death?"

Sigh. No, I can't. Aha! Therefore, there must be life after death! How did I miss such flawless logic?!?! And if there is life after death-which there most certainly is- then there must be a God! And this God must be the God of the Bible! I have been reconverted in a matter of seconds. Thanks, Anon!!

By the way, do you believe that all living creatures experience an afterlife? If not, why? Also, where do you get the idea that there is life after death? What evidence brought you to this conclusion??

Looking foward to your answer,
Paul

Anonymous said...

Howzabout this, I can actually (shock!gasp!horror!) quote the bible on what happens when you die:

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

A lot of people misinterpret these verses as Armageddon. I dunno. It reads a lot like a metaphor for individual death to me. Proof-texted from that perspective, "all these things shall be dissolved" makes a lot more sense than the traditional christian interpretation of it.

Weinland Watch said...

Uhhhhh those verses should be from 2 Peter, by the way.

(What do you want? I'm not exactly a bible scholar you know. :P)

Anonymous said...

"Can Paul prove there's nothing after death?" Anon

How did I miss such flawless logic?!?! And if there is life after death-which there most certainly is- then there must be a God! And this God must be the God of the Bible! I have been reconverted in a matter of seconds. Thanks, Anon!!
Paul

I don't see in the previous comment any implication concerning the alternative - that there is life after death. Logic? Straw men?

Paul again: By the way, do you believe that all living creatures experience an afterlife? If not, why? Also, where do you get the idea that there is life after death? What evidence brought you to this conclusion??

Only man-kind is 'in the image of God'. Sorry - no dogs in the Kingdom, or flies.

Bill Ferguson said...

Baashabob said...

To Bill Ferguson:

Hi Bill. If Gavin says your site is worthwhile then that is good enough for me. As long as you are fixing things up perhaps you could resurrect the dead links to join. I have tried both listserv@quango.net and sysadmin@quango.net and both come back as "recipient unknown".

Bob E.


Those links will be changed to a webboard link. The mailing list is moving to a web forum that can be also accessed via email.

In the meantime I'll check the aliases for those addresses and see if they are still correct.

Corky said...

"Can Paul prove there's nothing after death?"

Ever see anything after death? No? Well, I guess that settles it.

"Only man-kind is 'in the image of God'. Sorry - no dogs in the Kingdom, or flies."

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Anonymous said...

"Only man-kind is 'in the image of God'. Sorry - no dogs in the Kingdom, or flies."

So you arrived at your view from reading the Bible? That's your supporting evidence? The Bible? This is the difference between us. I believe that there is no life after death based on lack of evidence. You believe in life after death based on a book you read which also features talking animals. Do you see the problem here? Your judgement isn't sound. It isn't based in reality.

Paul

Anonymous said...

'So you arrived at your view from reading the Bible? '

Yes, Paul - from the Bible. I find it is a source of encouragement and daily guidance. And I like the hope it offers through the resurrection from death.

PS The text you site refers to the fact that we all die, man and the 'lower' creation. It says nothing about the after-life

Anonymous said...

Sorry - cite. I ain't that igerant!