Wednesday, 20 February 2008

Everything is Okey Dokey in Edmond

You might imagine that the editors at The Oklahoman might be able to distinguish between real journalism - concerns around a highly controlling local sect for example - and patsy PR pieces.

Apparently not.


Anonymous said...

Gavin wisely said: (of previous post)

"I think it's in everyone's best interests I turn off the comments option on this one..."

I know that was a har.., difficult decision but it's probably best that you did. I'm sure this sensitive group will resist Satan and flee mental fornification on this one.

Church Corporate Critic said...

Here is a revision closer to the truth:

"We want them to see the most of human nature”.

The 800-seat,
eight-story auditorium is modeled after the Ambassador Auditorium, in Pasadena,
Californica. Ambassador was home to the Worldwide Church of God and was known
for its concerts. Students will work before, during and after performances

"If you put human beings in a high quality but dysfunctional environment, you're going to get crap”.

Just one more thing, AICF stands for the Armadillo International Chocolate Factory, if you all remember.

Anonymous said...

For Edmond,OK the dollar is obviously mightier than the dysfunction.

Byker Bob said...

It's difficult to come up with any new or original comments on this topic, because we've all "been there, done that".

It's still noteworthy, although it is stupefying that such a mistake could be repeated, at the expense of well-meaning people who are making unneccessary personal sacrifices to fund what is essentially a vanity project.

In about twenty years, when this campus becomes Hiawatha High School, there are going to be a great number of disillusioned people writing about it, and rethinking their concepts of God.


Anonymous said...

Leap said . . .

"It's a house to honor God. You want to give him the best.”

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Act 17:24 God . . . dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing . . .

Wasn't that a great temple that Jesus and the apostles built? Oh, that's right . . . it wasn't a physical temple, was it.

Armstrongites don't have a clue what is meant in Gal. 4:26 and Heb. 11:10.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

No, the Armstrongites want a physical kingdom on earth.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Richard said...

So I guess Dennis Leap is still (or back) in the PCG fold -- after the difficulties which were noted online a year or two ago.

Of course they want the hall to be ready in the fall of '09 -- just in time for that potentially HUGE event affecting PCG in Dec '09-Jan '10, which Gerald Flurry has hinted at.

DennisDiehl said...

"It's a house to honor God. You want to give him the best.”

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Act 17:24 God . . . dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Dave Pack is also reinventing the wheel of Auditorium and campus with his new found, begged for, not earned money..

What is the mind disease that decides, out of one side of the mouth, to built permanent facilities on the edge of what the other side of the mouth says is the last few years? Or is that called hedging one's bets?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Lussenheide said...

I have come to realize that any large "7 Wonders of the World" type of edifices are always achieved using "Human Fuel" or "Human Fodder" to accomplish it.

Massive armies of slaves built the Pyramids, The Great Wall of China, The Roman Colieseum.

Massive armies of oppressed and abused humans built the Railroads, Dams, Canals.

Manipultaed, busted, and schemed people built the likes of Las Vegas, or Wall Street, or "Ambassador Complexes".

On ALL things human that we can boast, that we humans have made,... the ones that we can gaze upon with wonder, lies the trail of human wreckage, with life blood sucked out, victims of psychic vampires.

COG edifices are no different.

High in the pines, up in the mountains, along the West Fork of the San Gabriel river, I have seen a church that meets along its shore, upon the rocks.

Mostly poor Hispanics, they meet outdoors, a couple of guys have guitars, and then someone gives a sermon.

With a blue sky, and some big puff clouds rolling by, Ponderosa, Coulter and Douglas pines, and the beautiful music of the rushing water tossing over the rocks...

I have concluded that these poor folks have the most beautiful church building I have ever witnessed.

Cost- Free. Human fodder- None.

God's handiwork always wins and is superior every time.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

DennisDiehl said...

It has always amazed me how the few, or the one can talk the millions into so much. What is it about a majority that can't stand up to a minority?

DennisDiehl said...

RCG Members simply have to be brain dead not to see what is being done to them, emotionally, finanacially and spiritually. That's the only conclusion I can draw.

Even Dave's recent sermons are about nothing but his plan, his ideas, his way, his thoughts, his views, his calling, his memes.

It's all kinda sad to me. What's it take to see the manipulation of the mentally ill, no matter the sincerity level.

Byker Bob said...


I know you visit Shadows. Did you happen to see the quote J has posted on his forum? It's a Herbert W. Armstrong quotation from a 1960 Good News article or editorial. HWA equates criticizing him or the WCG with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and states that anyone who indulges in such criticism will never be forgiven. Lake of Fire time.

But, there are those who are always happy to point out to us that we freely made all of our choices.


DennisDiehl said...


You know, In hindsite, and over the years, I have to admit that simply must have filtered out various and obvious warning signs or comments made by some. It seems that a questionable comment would be made. I would go "hmmmmm" and then a short time later, some kind of other comment was made to dampen the one that was annoying or troubling and I'd filter out the feeling I had with the first.

The wanting to believe the best always kept me going when I should have listened to my stomach.

Tom Mahon said...

Ref. PCG's HWA foundation:

>>>"If you put human beings in a high quality environment, you're going to get high quality input,” Leap said.<<<

This is the kind of logic that puzzles my understanding and leaves me breathless! Still, when people are deceived, they tend to engage their mouths before engaging their brains, if they have any.

If you put bad people in good houses, they will wreck them. Just visit any residential, housing project, where people without values have been housed, and you will see the results!

OTOH, if you put good people in bad houses, they will improve them. So it is not the environment that matters, it is the quality and character of the people that counts. But, please don't tell Dennis Leap?

Corky said...

DennisDiehl said...

The wanting to believe the best always kept me going when I should have listened to my stomach.

When I was told the story of a hunter dropping ducks, one duck at a time, to hungry wolves on his way home from hunting so that the wolves never caught up with the hunter, I had no reason to doubt it.

Until . . . I had heard the same story from several different hunters who made themselves the hero of the story. Then, I figured out that I was hearing a much repeated lie.

When the first story of Jesus was told by someone who claimed to have known him, not to be out done, it provoked others to tell the same story of their own to claim personal knowledge for themselves.

How many dozens of these "gospels" were around when St. so and so decided that only 4 were authentic? Who knows? Some say hundreds of these gospels, all different, were destroyed.

This is what reminds me of the duck hunter's story. It's a meme that is still being told today and everyone who tells it takes the credit for being the one telling the true story.

DennisDiehl said...


I remember HWA giving a rousing Bible Study "BS" about how Satan could not reproduce and thus his world of dinosaurs could also not reproduce. I had just read a great National Geographic article that afternoon with pics of the first nest of fossilised Hadrasaur eggs ever found.

I didn't have the heart to raise my hand and say, "uh..excuse me Mr. Armstrong...that is incorrect and dinosaurs did just fine reproducing. However I just chalked it up to his age and the generation he came from.

However, GTA was going big on Evolution with A Whale of a Tale, which of course, was also bogus. I love it when they find whales with hind legs under the skin that have retracted like landing gear from a time when they were terrestrial cow like animals, to which they are related I believe.

Lussenheide said...

I Dunno Dennis.

The whale story about the "hind legs" has some potentially dubious origins....(cut and paste)

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

"I love it when they find whales with hind legs under the skin that have retracted like landing gear..."

Sheer poppycock! It's probably a fake whale in the first place, or if it isn't, it's probably a very necessary part of the whale, like a rudder or something. Proves nothing.

Evolution is the Biggest Lie ever foisted upon humanity. The truth is, an invisible, supernatural being named Jehovah instantaneously created everything via divine fiat, or from thin air, however you want to put it. It makes sense, too. Of course, it is troubling that he can create a blue whale out of nothingness, but can't seem to heal an amputee. Ahh, but His ways are higher than our ways, Selah and Amen.


DennisDiehl said...

"Dear Lord...Please make Luss and Paul be kidding me. Please make Answers in Genesis go away..Amen"


There is a great youtube video by a geologist and paleontologist who go to the creation museum and show that the shale it sits on is cretaceous with oodles of uniform life in it from the past. The museum is sitting on it's own proof of it's irrelevance.

Anonymous said...


Perhaps the Flurry crowd should have consulted Ron Weinland prior to building activities.

Unless, of course Edmond is the Place of Safety.


DennisDiehl said...


Byker Bob said...

The stuff Luss, Paul, and Dennis are pointing out in the strata are really there. That's not the problem. It's just that that "stuff" has to be factored into one's belief system. The problem is inerrantism. You have to follow the trail backwards a bit. Inerrantism is required to support legalism. Legalism is needed to support authoritarianism.

Could it be that God deliberately made inerrantism totally impossible, but the legalists insist on it anyway, to justify their absolute authority?


Anonymous said...

"Basilosaurus has been claimed as the whale’s ancestor. However, while it did have functional hind limbs, these were far too tiny to have anything to do with walking....Ambulocetus, with clear-cut hind limbs, was obviously able to walk, and is the latest fossil candidate—but it is doubtful that this imaginatively reconstructed creature had anything to do with the history of whales..."

I love it! Begrudgingly admit that an ancient creature may just be the ancestor of a long as the admitted legs could not allow locomotion (uh, what about the ancestor of that creature?), but if the legs clearly allow locomotion, then it ain't a whale's ancestor! Priceless Kreationist logic!

This is the most interesting part of the article:

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator-made-flesh, indicated in Mark 10:6 that people were made ‘from the beginning of the creation’ (not billions of years after the beginning). Whales, along with other creatures of the sea, were made just one day earlier.4 The same God Who is able to raise a person from the dead was easily able to accomplish this."

Yup. There you have it. You can't get more scientific than that.


DennisDiehl said...

There is a Answers in Genesis program on here every day and I always pray I am not in the car as it is difficult to keep on the road.

Mostly the final answer to everything discussed is "Duh, the Bible is true because God's word says it' is..." Go figure.

Anonymous said...


How appropriate! HWA and GTA made some mighty big claims!

Perhaps 150 - 200 coeds would care to comment.


Neotherm said...

I find it really creepy when WCG spin-offs engage in shameless imitation. It is hard to describe. If there were adroids, I think encountering a Armstrongite WCG clone like the PCG, is kind of like talking to an android. There is something that makes your skin crawl, especially when it is a clone of something bad rather than something good.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

Herbert W. Armstrong College?

Is this some sort of joke? What a hoot!

What do they teach?

"1975 in Prophecy"; "Make-up 101 - on again, off again, on again"; or "Fundamentals of Religious Financial Fraud"

How about a course in "Ramona 101 - a case study of a millionaire Apostle's messy divorce", or the ugly "Advanced Incest" course?

Continuing from post number 93 in the "BS Lemming" thread, I think I am ready for a cyber beer. Dennis, can I buy you one?

Anybody see Tom's mug shot yet?


ripley said...

Shame on The Oklahoman. What a bunch of lapdog saps. If I recall, they've been contacted by people who pointed out to them the bizarre decrees Apostle Six-Pack has thundered to his minions. Instead, they pollute their community with this fodder.

Meanwhile, Mahon slaps Leap's wrist, when Leap is simply parroting the kind of lines HWA used when building the Auditorium, and just about everything else. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. Splinter, meet Beam -- the Sequel.

Anonymous said...


Yes, Gavin.

HWAs doctrine was one of rigidity,so I suppose that the symbols you display are accurate representations of that same doctrine.


Lussenheide said...


Weinland said in his latest audio sermon that the POPE will be taken over by Satan on his coming up trip to the USA.

Coincidentally, this will be at New York, and the Pope will be visiting the 911 site as well. He will be in New York on April 19th, the date that Weinland has stated will be the start of the last 1260 days.

The Pope's USA schedule can be found here:

Here is the Pope's schedule for April 19th--
Saturday, April 19, 2008
(Third Anniversary of the Papacy of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI)

Morning Solemn Pontifical Mass for Priests, Deacons and Religious at the Cathedral of Saint Patrick. This Mass will Celebrate the Third Anniversary of the Holy Father's Election to the Papacy.
Afternoon Meeting with Disabled Children at the St. Joseph's Seminary Chapel.
Afternoon Meeting with Youth and Seminarians on the grounds of the St. Joseph's. Seminary.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee CA USA

Tired Skeptic said...

Just in case anyone missed it, Gerald Flurry has declared himself, "That Prophet", meaning that members must believe he is actually Jesus Christ in the flesh. And given his online record of DUI, it would fit because he is a drunkard and winebibber, the same as Jesus was accused of being. The only difference being, the reality of it all, if there were any to start with, which, we all know, there wasn't.

BC said...

The CoG7 never looked better!

BP said...

Gerald Flurry is Armstrongism's ultimate lunk,
With online DUI proving he's full of bunk,
Members he did heist,
Claiming he was Christ,
The gullible believe it, who woulda thunk?

WeinlandWatch said...

"45 Days to the Seventh Seal" according to Weinland's latest sermon.

Clever Gerry better get the cement poured pronto...............

Richard said...

I have come to realize that any large "7 Wonders of the World" type of edifices are always achieved using "Human Fuel" or "Human Fodder" to accomplish it.

Bill L., you provoke me to wonder something. Is PCG labor being used to build this auditorium? I don't mean $$ -- but are the on-site workers PCG members?

If not, why not? Isn't that the way Nehemiah did it in the O.T.? Those outside non-Christian "infidels" can't be trusted, because they'll secretly try to scuttle everything!

(Were WCG laborers used in Pasadena in the 1970s, for that matter?)

Weinland Watch said...

I knew I saw Bill's comment about the pope somewhere else but I couldn't find it. Anyway.

Bill says:


Weinland said in his latest audio sermon that the POPE will be taken over by Satan on his coming up trip to the USA."


The sermon Bill is referring to was given by Weinland on Feb. 9, 2008. It is very important to note that Weinland only used the phrase “great religious leader”. Weinland did not name the “great religious leader” to which he referred.

The full quote is as follows:

“In just a few days, or weeks here now, Satan is not going have any of that power [to pull people towards protestantism]. And, quite candidly, he shifts his attention to another person on this earth. To a great religious leader. And it will happen. When he’s here in the United States. That’s what I’ve been referring to. That great religious leader is coming here to the United States. And at that day, and at that time, when all this begins, is a very time when he [Satan] has power to influence, very powerfully so, that individual. Very powerfully so.”

You will note that, at no point does Weinland name this “great religious leader”. CoG-PKG members, and members of other Church of God splinters (also closed high-demand religious groups) are, in my opinion, reacting very hastily with this conclusion.

Weinland, of course, is just vague enough to get people all riled up…but leaves himself enough wiggle room for complete deniability, as to exactly which “great religious leader” he actually meant.

I certainly want to be the last person put in the place of running apologetics for Rotten Ronnie. But MY legitimate concerns are being overshadowed by these conclusion-jumping over-zealous "supporters" of mine.

That said, at least one member of the CoG-PKG is on record as commenting publicly on the connection between Weinland's "prophecy" and the pope's visit to the US. So if that's the conclusion Rotten Ron wants the party faithful (and other CoG splinter members) to come to, he's doing a bang-up job.

Of more concern TO ME is the blatant Anglo-Israelism Weinland preaches in the same sermon:

“I think about the first time I heard about as well, the US and BC in prophecy. And, to know who we are as a nation here, as far as the blessing God gave to Canada, and the nation here of the United States, and Australia, New Zealand and Europe, Western Europe. It’s incredible, just to know it’s true. You don’t have to look anything up, you don’t have to go read anything you just know it’s true.”

Yes, (insert name of deity of your choosing) forbid the few and straggling members of your miniscule little flocklet actually read anything or look anything up, Weinland.

Richard said...

OK, Mr. Weinland officially has joined "The Wiggles."

But let's face it -- Church of God ministers historically have dropped enough "hints" about things in their messages that members with any bit of logic in their brains will be drawn to one main conclusion.

That sure seems to be happening here. Just as some COG ministers in this U.S. election year will drop hints about dreadful and terrible things likely to happen if "one person" or "one party" becomes President. Invariably, they're talking about Democrats.

Weinland Watch said...

Weinland goes one further than that: He claims there won't be an election at all, and that America will have no government to speak of, by the end of the year.

Combine that with the blatant Anglo-Israelism, and the possible ties to christian identity groups, and these figures cannot add up to a benign CoG cult.

The key to making the subjects realize the emperor has no clothes is to present them with absolutely unimpeachable facts, not to go running off half-baked with theories applied to predictions that aren't even close to the mark in the first place.

Such actions raise credibility issues which I am trying my level best to avoid.

Meanwhile, Ron&Co are quietly slipping blatantly racist doctrine into the poisoned Kool-Aid (at least two publicly-commenting members of the CoG-PKG adhere to BI, and at least one uses it as a platform to prove Weinland as a prophet), and telling members the American government is going to collapse by the end of the year.

If the government's going to collapse, what's going to replace it? Why the Church of God Preparing for the Kingdom of God of course. And these nice christian militia people that we never had any substantiated public ties to in the first place.......

Byker Bob said...

Here's what bothers me the worst.
ACOG leaders are becoming very irritating in their heightened efforts to ram their unacceptable horsecrap down our throats. This was always true during the HWA era, as the message was always, "We're right, here's the way everyone is going to live, and, by the way, you can run from the punishments, but you just can't hide!"

They claim to be something that their consistent inaccuracy has proven that they are not. They are most definitely not God's messengers. That they succeed in swaying the weak, and manipulating them, ruining their lives, apparently is of no concern to them. And, if by some very remote percentage of probability, they actually turned out to be right, both present life and eternal life would not be worth living. But, fortunately the real Jesus will never allow them to be right. He never did honor HWA's false prophecies, and He's probably even more angry with these false prophets than we humans could possibly ever be.


Corky said...

Okay, the governments of the world collapse, money of any kind is worthless paper.

What do you do? You can't buy anything because your money is worthless. You can't sell anything because money is worthless.

God intercedes or intervenes? Nope, it just means we are in deep do-do and forced to face the facts of bankruptcy.

Want to become a hunter/gatherer once again? keep on messing with religion and you'll get your wish.

Weinland Watch said...

I'm not saying the American government is going to collapse. I certainly don't believe that.

I just don't want Weinland's followers to end up like that church that's been holed up in bunkers in Russia since November last year, with Weinland and his evangelists telling members that the government has collapsed, and the sheeple have no communication with the outside world to prove otherwise.

DennisDiehl said...

"He's (Jesus) probably even more angry with these false prophets than we humans could possibly ever be."

False prophets must be built into the religious system just for variety. God or Jesus could just hold seminars, as I have said, where ever and clearly explain how it is all going to be and what needs to be done. But ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...nooooooooooooo That would be too easy!


Anonymous said...

Heh, you're not kidding, Dennis.

By the way (and on-topic this time) I have had at least one visitor in the logs from Edmond. Likely because I linked to their versions of MoA and US&BC.

Also emailed United to find out if the crap Thiel was spewing about Harrell with no evidentiary basis whatsoever was correct. No answer strangely enough. Either it's still wending its way through the red tape of the madness-by-committee they've got going on over there, or they don't want United associated with anything at all that even smells like Weinland.

Given Weinland's resignation letter, which I found on The Journal, is it any wonder why?? Rotten Ronnie knows they (UCG Council of Elders) misappropriated $5m in funds. -WW

Corky said...

False prophets must be built into the religious system just for variety. God or Jesus could just hold seminars, as I have said, where ever and clearly explain how it is all going to be and what needs to be done. But ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...nooooooooooooo That would be too easy!

Not only too easy but it might relieve people from feeling inadequate . . . and doubtful. Plus, people wouldn't have to seek him with trembling and fear. Heh! That would take the fun out of the whole show.