tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post7252090624921995982..comments2023-11-05T20:19:44.812+13:00Comments on Ambassador Watch: Journal & BAR onlineGavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-2709458430040961022008-03-01T02:17:00.000+13:002008-03-01T02:17:00.000+13:00In other news re: The Journal, I notice they publi...In other news re: The Journal, I notice they published WCG's membership stats, but they failed to state the fact that at least three different sources from the same organization yields different data, as was pointed out on AR.<BR/><BR/>So much for impartial "Journal"ism.<BR/><BR/>And did you see the Connections advertising section? <STRONG><BR/><BR/>[oldgeezer]</STRONG>Pffffft! Back in my day, we argued about the timing of <EM>Pentecost</EM>, not Passover! What's the world of legalistic Armstrongism coming to?!<STRONG>[/oldgeezer]</STRONG>Weinland Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08029452242127198705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-78022627120349226012008-02-26T07:27:00.000+13:002008-02-26T07:27:00.000+13:00Well, of course the members don't! They see Weinl...Well, of course the members don't! They see Weinland as a type of Christ, and go to Jesus' examples of how to respond to Pharisees, unbelievers, and others who would question. It's all a part of the "game of Bible" anyone plays when they insert themselves personally into the book, rather than using it as an edifying resource for life.<BR/><BR/>BB (sorry, didn't have time to sign in)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-13283447373248069992008-02-26T04:58:00.000+13:002008-02-26T04:58:00.000+13:00Yes, none of the members I'm engaging in public de...Yes, none of the members I'm engaging in public debate will answer whenever they are asked why Weinland does not bring plagues down on people like he claims he has the power to.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I'm hoping Rod Meredith is in good health, and can at least hang on till March 2; maybe then Weinland will be proven as a false prophet, without the members of the CoG-PKG having to wait for Armageddon to descend on April 17th.<BR/><BR/>Presuming Weinland and his BI-spouting evangelists don't have something up their sleeves that they can point to, and say "Prophecy fulfilled!" after the fact.......Weinland Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08029452242127198705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-5974031057936280842008-02-25T18:30:00.000+13:002008-02-25T18:30:00.000+13:00This is not funny any more. Weinland is apparentl...This is not funny any more. Weinland is apparently claiming to have the powers granted to the two witnesses. Some of the ACOGs have been playing a silly game for years, calling one another Laodecean. But, it's beginning to sound as if Weinland plans to use his witness powers to punish other ACOGs, who as Weinland puts it, fail to repent.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Ah well. Apostle Dave will straighten him out when he trains him.<BR/><BR/>BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963860939122842077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-15636120697518884962008-02-25T11:53:00.000+13:002008-02-25T11:53:00.000+13:00Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leader...<I>Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leadership of Roderick Meredith, and the Church of the Great God will be two of the first that fall when the Fifth Thunder begins to sound in the Churches of God that have failed to repent from God’s correction.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, see, now: Wade Cox declares that just silly -- LCG is Sardis because it has a name that it is "Living" but is dead, and, so, it must continue until Christ returns!<BR/><BR/>See now. Isn't that just neat, simple, logical? And wrong?<BR/><BR/>It doesn't look like the cows show the slightest hint of an indication that they are coming home. Messers Meredith and Ritenbaugh will be dead a long time if and when Christ returns.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-38491994650284442062008-02-25T09:27:00.000+13:002008-02-25T09:27:00.000+13:00"deserve" Ugh. I hit publish instead of edit. :P"deserve" Ugh. I hit publish instead of edit. :PWeinland Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08029452242127198705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-56984399738793292182008-02-25T09:26:00.000+13:002008-02-25T09:26:00.000+13:00One further update to Bill Lussenheide's assertion...One further update to Bill Lussenheide's assertion that Weinland's book contained "murder threats" against RCM and others. The excerpt he quoted from the book neither confirmed nor denied that Weinland said definitively they were going to be murdered.<BR/><BR/><STRONG>However.</STRONG> A quote from Weinland's <A HREF="http://ronaldweinland.com/?page_id=25" REL="nofollow">Interview Comments</A> page:<BR/><BR/><EM>"As the leader of the Living Church of God, Roderick Meredith is mentioned as one of many ministers who will die as a result of the prophesied Fifth Thunder." </EM><BR/>--------------------<BR/><EM>"Indeed, the Living Church of God, under the leadership of Roderick Meredith, and the Church of the Great God will be two of the first that fall when the Fifth Thunder begins to sound in the Churches of God that have failed to repent from God’s correction." </EM><BR/><BR/>So Weinland is hoping Meredith will die, but not taking any credit for it (even though in the book Weinland claims he will be able to strike plagues on whoever he wants), and makes the point that these two churches will fall. Not necessarily the leaders.<BR/><BR/>Question: Why is Weinland so uptight about Rittenbaugh? I know Meredith was the one who kicked him out when PKG split from Living, but what did Rittenbaugh do to Weinland to deswerve such bile?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-30731995332395444042008-02-25T06:13:00.000+13:002008-02-25T06:13:00.000+13:00it is ill-logical to argue, as many members and mi...<I>it is ill-logical to argue, as many members and ministers do, that HWA was a false prophet, but their baptism and ordination is valid. God does not called people to be baptised or ordained by false prophets!</I><BR/><BR/>Acts 8:9-20<BR/><BR/>Simon the Sorcerer was the obvious exception.<BR/><BR/>It should be noted that the curse of Peter [from anger and bitterness] that "thy money perish wish me" was fulfilled: Herbert Armstrong died with all that money....<BR/><BR/>And not to put too fine a point on it, Tom's baptism must have not been valid, for he was baptized by a hireling of that great false prophet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-87478723286771782492008-02-25T05:26:00.000+13:002008-02-25T05:26:00.000+13:00Tired Skeptic said...>>>Tom must continue to compr...Tired Skeptic said...<BR/><BR/>>>>Tom must continue to compromise his position to lose more and more ground. He started out, as everyone well remembers, staunchly supporting Herbert Armstrong. Little by little, he's had to divorce himself further and further from the loser false prophet end time apostle:<<<<BR/><BR/>This is yet an other distortion of the facts. I have admitted on several occasions on this forum that HWA made mistakes and was guilty of sins! But what I have constantly affirmed is, that it is ill-logical to argue, as many members and ministers do, that HWA was a false prophet, but their baptism and ordination is valid. God does not called people to be baptised or ordained by false prophets!<BR/><BR/>For example, Joe junior has taken the lead in denouncing HWA as a false prophet, yet, according to him, he was baptised and ordained a minister under a false prophet's ministerial dispensation. Why has he not repudiated his baptism and ordination, and sought to be baptised and ordained by a true prophet or minister? The answer is very simple to those whose minds have not been warped by anger and bitterness.Tom Mahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087223683733643082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-334561775133330352008-02-25T04:47:00.000+13:002008-02-25T04:47:00.000+13:00Neotherm said...>>>This is a semantic issue that p...Neotherm said...<BR/><BR/>>>>This is a semantic issue that pivots on your use of the term undermine. Undermine generally means to impair the operation of something or to erode the basis of something. You were using it to mean "to negate".<<<<BR/><BR/>If there is a question of semantics, the question is for you to pose and answer. The truth of what I said is confirmed by scripture.Tom Mahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087223683733643082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-30770421270469325292008-02-24T19:41:00.000+13:002008-02-24T19:41:00.000+13:00And also be able to quote Scripture accurately wou...And also be able to quote Scripture accurately would help a lot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-69414267674988410042008-02-24T17:38:00.000+13:002008-02-24T17:38:00.000+13:00Tom:This is a semantic issue that pivots on your u...Tom:<BR/><BR/>This is a semantic issue that pivots on your use of the term undermine. Undermine generally means to impair the operation of something or to erode the basis of something. You were using it to mean "to negate". <BR/><BR/>The absolute promises of God cannot be negated but I would assert that their execution or application can be impaired. <BR/><BR/>So my argument addresses what you said. You just did not say what you meant. <BR/><BR/>Like HWA, when it comes to really critical exegesis, you need to look Webster's dictionary.<BR/><BR/>-- NeoNeothermhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546163563669263135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-15924672779478859472008-02-24T15:16:00.000+13:002008-02-24T15:16:00.000+13:00Byker Bob said... I just couldn't help but wond...<I>Byker Bob said...<BR/><BR/> I just couldn't help but wonder what might have happened if Paul had come into the AC gym one sabbath, like an angel unawares, oh, say about 1966. He probably would have totally freaked! Because, standing right in front of him, speaking in a big booming radio voice, would have been this little white haired false prophet, with NO love whatsoever, using the false prophecy to extract whatever little amounts of disposable cash his followers had left after the false tithing teachings had taken the rest.<BR/><BR/> Shoot, we would have been better off going over to GTA's house for a poker game. We know that GTA did have an occasional bad night gambling, so we would have had a fighting chance to keep some of our money!<BR/><BR/> BB</I><BR/><BR/><B><BR/>You know after a hard day of gambling 3rd tithe money, via poker chips purchased on his corporate AMEX card, flying church jets fueled and leased with 3rd tithe money to Vegas and who knows where,<BR/>shooting moose in Alaska from airplanes (highly illegal) <BR/>no wonder he needed a good rub-down now and then!<BR/><BR/>I just pity the poor therapist that had to work with that energy!</B> AMERICAN KABUKIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064036099785125749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-1856126847100007092008-02-24T15:05:00.000+13:002008-02-24T15:05:00.000+13:00Yep. Keeping the law. I'm sure the Pharisees wou...Yep. Keeping the law. I'm sure the Pharisees would agree that legalism was love.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-36710349258210982922008-02-24T14:46:00.000+13:002008-02-24T14:46:00.000+13:00"Paul stated that amongst the gifts of the Holy Sp..."Paul stated that amongst the gifts of the Holy Spirit, love was the highest on the hierarchy."<BR/><BR/>Yes, but according to Armstrongism, what is the definition of love? Keeping God's commandments. Therefore, if you are keeping the Holy Days and the Sabbath and refraining from unclean meat, you have "love." This is the primary reason why many Armstrongites are callous, cold, and unfeeling towards humanity in general. This loophole gave the ministry and the members a reason not to have to actually care about and have compassion for other human beings. <BR/><BR/><BR/>PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-52803076894520189812008-02-24T13:35:00.000+13:002008-02-24T13:35:00.000+13:00Speaking of the Apostle Paul, I've been studying 1...Speaking of the Apostle Paul, I've been studying 1 Corinthians 12-16 today. Paul stated that amongst the gifts of the Holy Spirit, love was the highest on the hierarchy.<BR/><BR/>He also stated that he wished more of the brethren had the gift of prophecy, because prophecy was a church builder. Even so, prophecy without love was of no value, according to Paul.<BR/><BR/>I just couldn't help but wonder what might have happened if Paul had come into the AC gym one sabbath, like an angel unawares, oh, say about 1966. He probably would have totally freaked! Because, standing right in front of him, speaking in a big booming radio voice, would have been this little white haired false prophet, with NO love whatsoever, using the false prophecy to extract whatever little amounts of disposable cash his followers had left after the false tithing teachings had taken the rest.<BR/><BR/>Shoot, we would have been better off going over to GTA's house for a poker game. We know that GTA did have an occasional bad night gambling, so we would have had a fighting chance to keep some of our money!<BR/><BR/>BB<BR/>He probByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963860939122842077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-21965495181006216222008-02-24T11:32:00.000+13:002008-02-24T11:32:00.000+13:00Tom Mahon said...Jesus taught, "Till heaven and ea...Tom Mahon said...<BR/><I>Jesus taught, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled,"</I><BR/><BR/>But it all was fulfilled:<BR/><BR/>Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.<BR/><BR/>Gal 5:14 For <B>all the law</B> is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-39682333157677982702008-02-24T10:26:00.000+13:002008-02-24T10:26:00.000+13:00So whether it was GTA, HWA or any other creature t...<I>So whether it was GTA, HWA or any other creature that misbehaved, the teachings of Christ and the promises of God remain steadfast.</I><BR/><BR/>Just not among those who were so warped by Herbert Armstrong and what he created who came as believers and left as atheists, which certainly does not excuse GTA, HWA or any other creature that misbehaved.<BR/><BR/>But then, this is soooooo off topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-31698899030221089202008-02-24T10:19:00.000+13:002008-02-24T10:19:00.000+13:00Relentless PursuitEven amidst revisionist history ...<I><B>Relentless Pursuit</I></B><BR/><BR/>Even amidst revisionist history in the form of "I never said that" [and of course the "I never said that" was never <I>directly</I> said, just stated in various forms], there is progress as yard by yard, foot by foot, inch by inch, millimeter by millimeter, Tom must continue to compromise his position to lose more and more ground. He started out, as everyone well remembers, staunchly supporting Herbert Armstrong. Little by little, he's had to divorce himself further and further from the loser false prophet end time apostle: This forum has had an impact. One could hope that the correction can take hold and repentance would ensue, but I'm not holding my breath because, just like anyone else, I would turn blue and pass out.<BR/><BR/>This is all on topic because the issue is The Journal with all its nutty contributors and an occasional sane person. Pursuing the reason why things are the way they are: Just how did people get so obsessed on the Two Witnesses or divisions within a CoG?<BR/><BR/>The answer seems like it should be clear enough: Armstrongism is about Herbert Armstrong. Pretty much everything associated with him ends up as really bad fruit. Pretty much. <BR/><BR/>Discovery of the core of the real problem can be used to bring an explanation to those seeking it with resolution, closure and finally, peace.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and besides, the Biblical Archaelogy Review is interesting too, what with the discussion of Jezebel's seal and all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-57076820524253219072008-02-24T09:25:00.000+13:002008-02-24T09:25:00.000+13:00Neotherm said...>>>Tom wrote: "The personal questi...Neotherm said...<BR/><BR/>>>>Tom wrote: "The personal question you have not asked is, does anybody's sin or bad behaviour undermine the teachings of Jesus and God's promise of eternal life to his children?"<BR/><BR/>>>>Of course. Paul admonished first century church members that the name of God was blasphemed among Gentiles because of some of their practices.<<<<BR/><BR/>Firstly, unlike TS you are at least trying to stick to the subject. However, the argument you are making is against something I did not say. Paul told the Jews in the church at Rome, that boasting about the law while breaking the law dishonours God; and as a consequence, the name of God was blasphemed among the Gentiles because of them. This is similar to what Nathan told David, after his seduction of Bathsheba and the murder of her husband. The words of Nathan are these: Howbeit, because of this deed thou has given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme." So both Nathan and Paul are saying, that the sins and bad behaviour of Christians can lead to non-Christians dishonouring God.<BR/><BR/>But it does not say that the sin or behaviour of anyone can undermine the teachings of Christ or the promises of God. On the contrary, Jesus taught, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled," and Paul was inspired to write: "For all the promises of God in Him are yes."<BR/><BR/>So whether it was GTA, HWA or any other creature that misbehaved, the teachings of Christ and the promises of God remain steadfast.Tom Mahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087223683733643082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-32465024260197974532008-02-24T09:03:00.000+13:002008-02-24T09:03:00.000+13:00Yet another example of poor judgment because of a ...Yet another example of poor judgment because of a rejection of correction.<BR/><BR/>One should bring forth fruit of repentance before expecting to be considered godly.<BR/><BR/>Making empty statements and threats do not make them so particularly when the facts are unanswerable: When a person can't answer, the best thing to do is to perform a magic act of deception to ignore them so they won't have any affect in causing them to the truth: Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet and there's no magic which can make that go away. Yet, the author of this supercilious rubbish wants all of us to ignore the facts, but impeaches his own false prophet and attempts to distance himself from obvious cognitive dissonance. None of us here are fooled by this foolishness, but it is instructive to observe the methodology for future reference. Particularly interesting is the stupid proposition that it was merciful for Herbert Armstrong to pay GTA gambling debts. God wouldn't do it. If Jesus Christ gambled away $50,000 in Reno, wouldn't God make him face up to the consequences? Or is there so little knowledge of God that a person wouldn't know?<BR/><BR/><I>If you are going to quote me, please try to be accurate.</I><BR/><BR/>Why bother to play the games of a gamesplaying psychopathic hypocrite who doesn't even keep his own rules... the paraphrase was close enough....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-25914439334604788212008-02-24T08:29:00.000+13:002008-02-24T08:29:00.000+13:00Tired Skeptic said...>>>It is suspicious that he k...Tired Skeptic said...<BR/><BR/>>>>It is suspicious that he keeps mentioning that Herbert Armstrong was responsible for his conversion..<<<BR/><BR/>If you are going to quote me, please try to be accurate. For I have never said that HWA was responsible for my conversion. I said that God called me as a result of HWA preaching the gospel.<BR/><BR/>I may be a fool, but I not so foolish not know that God is responsible for the calling, repentance and conversion of his children. <BR/><BR/>BTW, the rest of the contents of your post, indicate that you went to the keyboard and stated typing without thinking. So as soon as you are able to focus on the topic under discussion, instead of digressing to mention unrelated matters; and to marshal a logical and coherent argument against the ideas I have posited, then, they my be scope for a meaningful discussion. But I am not holding my breath!Tom Mahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087223683733643082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-5646256828069087892008-02-24T07:56:00.000+13:002008-02-24T07:56:00.000+13:00Neotherm,And I couldn't agree more with your asses...Neotherm,<BR/><BR/>And I couldn't agree more with your assessment. In fact, point #1 is rich with detail: Herbert Armstrong always wanted to be the "big man" [and he was, but only in the roly-poly sense sense of having enough girth to be both of the two witnesses combined into one]. He prided himself on winning arguments and boasting in his autobiography about making people "eat their words". He wanted revenge to be proved right. Being a chancellor of a college when he had no more than an eighth grade education is the ultimate for such a person. <BR/><BR/>By being contrarian, he had the option of not just being someone but being superior by being different. To be better than others was his goal. He certainly had his pride.<BR/><BR/>As for point #2, there are also the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like. I've seen your postings and it is quite apparent to me that you experienced that at Big Sandy campus -- as have others of my acquaintance. In fact, so little of the fruit of the spirit seemed to present that one would need some sort of quantum detector to measure it, if it existed.<BR/><BR/>The problem extends to so many just like a poisoned spring. The stress of having to live in a dysfunctional environment unable to measure up to its promises because it did not have the appropriate spiritual resources drove people to do things which, under normal circumstances, would be abhorrent, but because of the venue became a matter of practice to attempt to live up to the magnitude of the lies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-21265165445442766232008-02-24T07:16:00.000+13:002008-02-24T07:16:00.000+13:00To Tired Skeptic:You make some very good observati...To Tired Skeptic:<BR/><BR/>You make some very good observations and I would like to add a couple of ideas:<BR/><BR/>1) On accepting correction: I believe that HWA was a contrarian. He looked into the Bible and, lo and behold, he found something totally at odds with mainstream Christianity. There are people who pride themselves in being different and poking fun at the big guys of religion--people who are little want to feel big. A bone may be thrown to self-correction, but it is never really in the game. <BR/><BR/>2) The Holy Spirit is real and it has a real impact on people's lives. The fruit of the spirit is cataloged in the epistles of Paul. When I was around many of the Armstrongite leaders in Big Sandy, I never felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. (As a Quaker this makes perfect sense to me but others may have a question.) I mostly felt authoritarianism, egocentrism and an desire to intimidate. I never felt that I was dealing with people who were led by the Holy Spirit. The problems at Big Sandy were legendary. The wave of egocentrism that hit you when you entered faculty dining was like a tsunami. <BR/><BR/>These authoritarians (commanders not leaders) will tell you that their authoritarian behavior is based on the idea of "standing strong for God and his Law." That is just a red herring. How does "standing strong for God" obviate love? It doesn't and they were "standing strong" for themselves. <BR/><BR/>-- NeoNeothermhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546163563669263135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-21539179490034882082008-02-24T06:58:00.000+13:002008-02-24T06:58:00.000+13:00Good, accurate dissertation, Neo!I've long argued ...Good, accurate dissertation, Neo!<BR/><BR/>I've long argued that HWA presented his version of the gospel in such a way as to make it either difficult to accept, or absolutely abhorent. In practical application, the chief role of the Holy Spirit in Armstrong's church was to open or cause the human mind with any common sense, to accept and agree with ridiculous, self-destructive beliefs and practices. Of course, since the Holy Spirit would never be involved in that type of activity, and does not work that way, it's quite obvious that He was not involved in HWA's church in the first place. <BR/><BR/>The so-called bitterness, expressed on other websites, is Armstrong's legacy. A legacy of spiritual rape at worst, or, being kind, of a job poorly done. The good news is that God can and does really heal people of this legacy. And this time around, people really do get to have Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in their lives. All a person needs to do is sincerely ask.<BR/><BR/>BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963860939122842077noreply@blogger.com