Wednesday, 30 January 2008

Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!

LDS leader Gordon Hinckley has passed into the Great Beyond, and Bob Thiel provides a COGgish spin...

Because of their belief to store food for emergencies, I suspect that once the USA is taken over that the few that survive and do not become slaves will partially exist on food that the LDS have stored.

The year is 2008, Herbert Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, and Herman Hoeh have all long preceded Mr Hinckley into the grave, and Rod Meredith probably isn't far behind. It seems fairly certain to me - though perhaps not to Bob - that Adolph Hitler is not hiding out in the jungles of South America planning a resurrected Fourth Reich (as The Plain Truth once trumpeted.) Warfare in the Twenty-first Century is no longer waged with huge conscript armies, and the mass deportation of conquered populations makes little sense. Slave labor is inefficient in the Info-Tech age, and Germans are, if stereotypes are to be believed, anything but inefficient.

So what the blazes is Bob doing by advocating this incredible nonsense about the Anglo world being swept away by the German hordes, the citizens of the white English-speaking nations being taken away as slave labor or slaughtered?

Oh sorry, I forgot: the more sure word of prophecy.

This is the price of Biblical illiteracy. Armstrongists knew a lot of things about the Bible, could quote proof texts and flick through to the book of Obadiah more swiftly than your average Baptist, but when it came to the important stuff we knew sweet little.

Genre for example: Poetry, Apocalyptic, etiological legends.

The price of mind-numbing literalism can be deadly: ask King Charles I, who literally lost his head, in part because the Puritans thought he might be "the tenth and final horn on the fourth beast described in the Book of Daniel..." (Spurr, English Puritanism 1603-1689, p 113)

But then the Puritans had an excuse Bob and the weirder splinters don't; they lived in the 1600s.

The Bible does not predict world events in advance. Germany is not Assyria. The US and Britain are not Ephraim and Manasseh. The Tribulation did not begin in 1972.

My challenge to Bob, and anyone else who thinks they have the inside track on what's ahead because of Bible prophecy, is to invest in a good one volume commentary - Eerdmans or Oxford for example, and get a clue. It's interesting that both these commentaries feature significant articles by Lester Grabbe, a former Ambassador College lecturer who is now is at the top of his field in Old Testament studies.

Which just goes to show that there may be hope for all of us.

Including Bob.

98 comments:

DennisDiehl said...

LCG says:

"Pay attention to warnings

By Don Davis

When hard times come, will you be ready? What will you and your loved ones do when you must face a famine, a natural disaster or a war?

First and foremost, your safety and survival will depend on how close a relationship you have with God. Have you listened to His warnings? Scripture reminds us of the blessings of being under His protection: “A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, and see the reward of the wicked. Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge, even the Most High, your dwelling place” (Psalm 91:7-9)."

This is a COG Meme (mind virus) at it's finest. For all the hope of being born again, born later, born soon enough, born into the Kingdom of God, the COG's have always wanted to postpone it as long as possible by being "protected."

Who cares about an extra sliver of protection time in the whole scheme of things? They do big time.

Of course, we have to throw in the appropriate disclaimer to the above protection offered above...

Don Davis LCG:

"We need to understand that, to achieve His purposes for our ultimate good, God may not afford us full physical protection in every situation."

It's a strange mix of "I wanna be in the Kingdom and hidden in the grave until thy wrath be passed" and "OMG...where's the food coming from to save my hide in the place of safety?"

DennisDiehl said...

Oops sorry, I forgot to add the part where if you give money to the church, you can buy your protection

Don Davis of LCG notes:

"What can we do about this? As Dr. Meredith wrote, “If you truly believe in the living God and in His inspired word, you will do your part to support His Work even in trying times. THEN (emphasis mine) the Creator will certainly ‘be there’ when you desperately need Him."

Jesus is quoted to have said:

"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven."

I am assuming this means that Children have Angels of their own for protection. However, my experience of burying a lot of children whose Angels spent way too much time looking into the face of God and no time looking after the child, would also serve as a cautionary tale over thinking protection is for the good people.

It's tough standing with parents who are screaming that they "KNOW" they don't pray, study and give enough to the church" while we wait to pull the body out of the creek from under a tractor.

I don't believe or the COG's have learned anything about this ludicrous and foolish meme over the past 60 years. If the Angels can't find time to save the kids when needed, why would they bother with the old farts, in the flesh?

Byker Bob said...

I just finished reading a rather remarkable book called "The Rapture Exposed" by Barbara Rossing. Ms. Rossing is one of the premier scholars regarding the book of Revelation.

I know we didn't believe in the rapture in the same ways that the Protestant world believes, but the concept of the place of safety was somewhat similar.

Ms Rossing approaches the topic with full knowledge and background in the apocalyptic genre, which was very popular during the time of Jesus. She has some very interesting views which totally conflict with what we were taught by our uneducated teachers at WCG. Forget about the church eras, Revelation as a timeline for the events of the endtime, geographical places of safety, etc.

In her view, Revelation is simply a warning or outline, much as the one Moses gave to Pharaoh, for the some of the things that could happen if conditions, ethics and morality get too bad on planet Earth. It is intended to portray the results of bad environmental stewardship (sun becoming hotter), unresolved conflict (war), and the results which man brings on himself by rejecting God.

Throughout the book, Jesus is not depicted as a lion, but as a lamb. The book is an exhortation, designed to focus people on Jesus Christ, not a book of tortures and hopelessness.

When I was a member of the WCG, the whole place of safety concept bothered me. First, I knew from history that followers of Jesus Christ were tortured and made sport of in the arenas up until the time of Constantine. How could HWA promise protection for his tithe-payers? Secondly, I wondered why God could not simply protect His people wherever they might be, from whatever might happen. Why the need for a place of safety? It seemed all too convenient for Herbert W. Armstrong to use in keeping his followers in line.

And then there were the ridiculous ones, the ones who took things too far and concocted theories about God supernaturally using defective airplanes, mothballed because of cracked frames, or the egrets from David Wynne's statue coming to life and flying the brethren to Petra. People get downright silly with their religion, and it often unfairly stereotypes anyone who happens to believe in Jesus. When I was an agnostic, I took much comfort from the ridiculous ones.

One final thought. Why do folks like Bob Thiel have such an intense need to exploit the deaths of other religious leaders to further their own church's agendas?
Insecurity?

BB

slyfox said...

To say the bible is not a book of prophecy of what is to come is lunacy of the lowest order.. I agree that they dont have it just right and that when evil comes it wont be the way they think.... but evil will come.....Ron Bryant

Anonymous said...

Don Davis was with Rod Meredith right from the very beginning of Global, the church's business being conducted in Davis' home. Davis loaned a large sum of money to Global. Then, he supported RCM when RCM left to start LCG. Again, the work being done at the Davis' home. Davis, an elder, spoke well at local congregations, was an extremely hard worker, a good organizer, a good example, a good man. He has been extremely loyal to RCM. How did RCM repay this loyalty? By secretly removing Davis from the council of elders (at the behest of the liberals) because Davis suggested that pony tails on men might not be Biblical. Then, last year Davis was forced out of the ministry ("for political reasons" - Davis) and relegated to a meaningless job at HQ. Now, some 3 years later, the long-haired dude still flaunts his pony tail at HQ, while Davis remains his loyal self, despite being humiliated by RCM.

Richard said...

Hold on here. Aren't Church of God members supposed to have a food stockpile, too?

I heard a WCG Pastor mention it at a Bible Study years ago. And it was Herman Hoeh who supposedly suggested it -- having 30 days' worth of food in storage, for whenever The Worst comes.

Anonymous said...

I saw on PBS that the LDS donated some of their stored food to Katrina victims, the Holy spirit at work.

Anonymous said...

"My challenge to Bob, and anyone else who thinks they have the inside track on what's ahead because of Bible prophecy, is to invest in a good one volume commentary..."

How about a good biology, chemistry, and biochemistry text? For one, this reading list is concerned with reality, and secondly, it is much more constructive.

Paul

Anonymous said...

"THEN (emphasis mine) the Creator will certainly ‘be there’ when you desperately need Him.""


I guess the Ratzman shooting victims weren't giving enough in tithe money. Oh, I forgot, they were victims of When Satan Attacks. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why Christians die...lack of faith, or perfect faith? Lack of zeal or too much zeal? It's all so very confusing.

Paul

Davis Is No Martyr For The Truth said...

Don Davis is no martyr or saint because he 'supposedly' holds on to the so called 'truth'.

Davis was a tyrannical abusive deacon when he was in Pasadena lording himself over all he came into contact with and over his family.

Those that were in Global and LCG who were with him in WCG said he got worse over the years in his abuse.

Plus, those kids from Imperial Schools that were in the mountains on a camping trip with him will NEVER forget his 'christian' actions there!


Davis deserves no more respect that Six Pack Flurry, MerryDeath or the Packatolla. We all know what scripture says about abusive elders lording their self righteous selves over others. And THAT is a very comforting thing to know!

Corky said...

The Bible does not predict world events in advance. Germany is not Assyria. The US and Britain are not Ephraim and Manasseh. The Tribulation did not begin in 1972.

Truer words were never spoken. Heck, the folks in the Bible didn't even know there was a whole other world across the uncrossable ocean.

Heck, they didn't even know about China or Siberia. Bible folks lived in a small little world that went no further south than Egypt and no further north than the reaches of the old Roman empire.

No prophecy in the Bible was written before it had already happened. That makes it easier to predict things, by the way.

Revelation, the latest book, is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and details those who are responsible but has nothing of a future prophecy in it.

The only thing that "must shortly come to pass" was the return of Jesus and the resurrection and judgment. It didn't happen, get over it.

Anonymous said...

davis is no martyr for the truth said,"Plus, those kids from Imperial Schools that were in the mountains on a camping trip with him will NEVER forget his 'christian' actions there!"

What did Davis's do on the camping trip?

Lussenheide said...

FWIW: "The LUSSENEHIDE" is descended from Mormon pioneers and an LDS President. My grandmother's maiden name was "Young" (it dont get more Mormon than that!) and she was born in Salt Lake City in 1883. She left the church in her youth, and spent the rest of her life as a "religious dabbler", ranging from Christian Science to Evangelical.

Nonetheless, there have been some interesting trivia that has passed down to me about the LDS church that most are probably not aware of. As far as "cults" go, the Mormons make Armstrongism seem like "baby poop" by comparison.

Few speak of the "secret police force" called the "Danites" or "Avenging Angels" who enforced Mormon doctrine and politics, literally with murder and disappearance into the nite of the Utah desert. Temple "Blood Oaths" were also enforced literally with blood.

Much of Mormon practice is very similar to the Masons. Little surprise, as Joseph Smith himself was a Mason, and one of his wives, was the widow of William Morgan, who was the leader of the Masons, who was killed in 1826. Few realize how powerful the Masons were in the United States from its beginnings to about 1860. The "Mormon/Mason Connection" is kept quiet by the LDS church to this day.

All said, I think that most people are woefully unprepared for just common everyday diasaster, let alone "the end of the world". The LDS practice of keeping some stored food, medicines, water, ammo, and some survival gear makes great sense. This isnt "end of the world stuff" that Im proposing, (On your knees in prayer is probably the only option at that point!), but for the inevitable power failures, earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, terrorism et al. which are everyday common occurances in this carnal life.

I have a pre assembled back pack, which has a weeks worth of provisions, micro water filters, thermal blankets, small tools, crank radio, flashlight, rope, gloves and much more, that cost only about $250. A small insurance premium. Being confortable with self defense and small arms aint a bad idea either.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Lussenheide said...

Not a criticism, but an observation...

I dig "Gavinisms".

An example of these appear in the last two postings of the "Ambassador Watch"...

* Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!

* Uhhhhhhh !!!

Are these expressions copyrighted, or can they be used in my own newsletters or the public domain? :-)

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

purplehymnal said...

Stockpiling food and bomb shelters were a Cold War vestige WCG persisted with until the last days (of the church).

I agree, the emergency preparedness kit (for up to thirty days) is a good idea. Knowing how to forage and drive off gangs of wild looters, well that's not likely to be necessary in the area of the world I'm in right now so pooey on that.

Bill's right about the Mormons, though, I remember reading an ex-LDS' expose autobiography and thinking, wow, WCG wasn't the only church that screwed its kids up for the sake of religion.

Bob said...

The comment about the LDS being as bad or worse than the WCG ever was, is dead on. Recently PBS produced a joint Frontline/American Experience documentary on the Mormons. You can watch the whole thing online at:
http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

It is a fascinating insight into this rather secretive church, and well worth the time spent. While watching it and thinking about my WCG experiences, it was deja vu all over again.

Bamboo_bends said...


Anonymous said...

Now, some 3 years later, the long-haired dude still flaunts his pony tail at HQ, while Davis remains his loyal self, despite being humiliated by RCM.



Pony tails on men.

Now there's a subject to really sink your conservative fangs into!

Imagine if our upstanding Christian American Founding Fathers had had pony tails ....wait.... they did!

Now if the man at HQ had tats...
well that would be reason to toss him out, unless of course it was a tattoo of HWA!

Rod allowing pony tails is a remarkable sign of mellowing if you ask me. Sheesh. The things people get wound up about.

DennisDiehl said...

Gavin said:

"The Bible does not predict world events in advance."

Think how different the entire planet would be if everyone understood this reality?

Anonymous said...

"Imagine if our upstanding Christian American Founding Fathers had had pony tails ....wait.... they did!"

Wait a minute there, pal. Number one, God allowed pony tails for the MassaEphraimites back then just as he allowed them to disregard the Sabbath and the Holy Days. He didn't have time to mess with the details in bringing into fruition the Birthright Promises.

After the Promises were fulfilled (the sea gates of your enemy and all that jazz, selah) then it was no longer kosher to wear ponytails and disregard the Holy Days. Since man, in his carnal way, continued to wear ponytails and disregard the Sabbath and Holy Days, God is now instituting the Ass Kicking Promises.

It never made sense to me...why did God allow the Founding Fathers and this country to grow so mightily when the Founding Fathers did not observe the Law? I mean, they ate pork and didn't fast on Atonement or attend the FOT. Why would God bless a disobedient people. Isn't that why he is supposedly punishing the 12 tribes now, because they eat pork and don't attend the FOT? Why is it wrong for me to eat pork but obviously not for the early Americans, who God obviously blessed? Oh, Jebus, grant me thy spirit so I can unravel this mystery!!


Paul

Bob said...

Bamboo said:
"Rod allowing pony tails is a remarkable sign of mellowing if you ask me."

Mellowing my foot! Rod's eyes are so bad that he can't see the ponytail. That might explain why every time Rod passes that guy in the hall he says "Isn't that a cute little pussycat you have on your shoulder". :-))

DennisDiehl said...

Bamboo said:
"Rod allowing pony tails is a remarkable sign of mellowing if you ask me."

Now add the pink shirt and see if the mellowage continues...:)

Anonymous said...

Bamboo Bends said "Now if the man at HQ had tats...well that would be reason to toss him out, unless of course it was a tattoo of HWA!

MY COMMENT: The other exception would be GTA's girly tatooed arm.

byker bob said...

If Rod were really mellowing, HE'd have a ponytail! Wonder what Dr. Thiel would have to say about that!

BB

BC said...

Three weeks ago, a minister actually gave a sermon that an angel would transport church members to a Place of Safety and they wouldn't have a choice and no one should worry about having to do anything: Are we sure the old WCG didn't believe in the rapture, given some of GW's five hour wonder scenarios?

Lussenheide said...

The Rupture Theory is an Abdominalation!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Byker Bob said...

Slyfox said:

"To say the Bible is not a book of prophecy of what is to come is lunacy of the lowest order..."

Why do you think that?

Even old school WCG often admitted that if the targets of Revelation repented, the prophecies in that book did not need to be fulfilled. They cited Jonah, successful prophet in that Nineveh repented, as an example. So, prophecy becomes a set of possible consequences, designed to leverage behavior.

One thing prophecy is not. It is not intended to become leverage for a preacher to use on his followers to manipulate their financial decisions. There's just too much left to interpretation which the preacher could get wrong. That's how we arrived at the so-called church eras, learned to apply numerology and symbolism to the timeline based on such things as the "time of the Gentiles", identified the Roman Catholic Church being the Great Wh0re of Babylon, and mislabeled Japhetic peoples as modern day Israel. Herbert W. Armstrong used any number of speculations to prop up his personal interpretation of the Book of Revelation, coupled with his interpretation of the Book of Daniel.

Others have pointed out that Revelation might have been considered totally fulfilled in AD 70 with the invasion, sacking, and destruction of Israel. However, it is thought to have been written sometime during AD 81-96 during the reign of Domitan. Those same "others" have speculated that all Bible prophecies are actually history, written after their fulfillment, which is why we have the concept of type and antetype.

If the book was inspired, and if it was intended to be part of the canon, certain behavior must take place to kick in the possible punishments. That's why Jesus, who gave his disciples a synopsis of the Book of Revelation as a way of recognizing the times of the end, told them that nobody could know when this would all occur except the Father (who is the decisionmaker as to when to pull the plug).

I personally believe that all the Christians, whom we in WCG were taught to disrespect, are influencing the possible outcome of the timing of the end. Their influence does put the brakes on, so to speak, and prevent society at large from sinking to the depths of Sodom and Gomorah. Most of the people I meet are still sincere folks who are trying to act with the best intentions. They're also concerned with the types of environmental damage which could lead to some of the seemingly automatic destructive phenomena outlined in Revelation.

I don't believe in a bunch of spiritual superstition. If and when the worst case prophecy scenarios begin to kick in, we won't need to be fanning the flames to get it started, or to be guessing about it. It will become perfectly obvious to all. People will need to be brave, and to decide which side they're really on. And, this may not even happen in our lifetimes. The fig tree branches might not even refer to the reestablishment of Israel in 1948. That, too, is blatant speculation.

BB

DennisDiehl said...

Lussenheide said...
The Rupture Theory is an Abdominalation!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Bill...that took a lot of guts to say and I thank you...:)

purplehymnal said...

Oh, we had our own version of the Rapture, I remember that vividly.

After Armageddon was over, and death and hell took a long walk off a short plank into the lake of fire, the hundred and forty-four thousand of us living in a six-thousand-year-old ruined city somewhere in the middle east would be magically lifted up to the clouds, so we could take our rightful places as the new Old Testament overlords.

At least the protestants believed they'd get taken up BEFORE the poo-poo hit the circulating air device.....

Anonymous said...

"At least the protestants believed they'd get taken up BEFORE the poo-poo hit the circulating air device....."

Well..you forget, we had final training to undergo while those Old Protestants just showed up dumb and stupid. :)

purplehymnal said...

ROFL anonymous - We could write a whole series of Left Behind books that would scare the living daylights out of the evangelicals, couldn`t we??

I'm thinking 900-page opuses with lots of CAPS LOCK FOR URGENT EMPHASIS and italics for lesser emphasis and illustrations by Monte Wolverton, given that he's so closely followed in dear ol' Basil's footsteps......

Anonymous said...

I always wondered if anyone in the audience was uncomfortable with "Glorious things of thee are Spoken" when just a few years earlier it was "Deutchland Deutchland Uber Alles"?

Kinda like the sick American joke on the Brits with "My Country Tis of thee" vs. "God Save the Queen"

I did like Freddy Mercury however...

purplehymnal said...

You know, I never knew "Glorious Things...." was the Nazi party anthem. I haven't gotten to that one yet, though.

Jared Olar said...

Yes indeed -- the Nazis ruined "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken." When I was a WCGer, a minister told me that WCG members did not sing that hymn when in Israel, lest they be overheard and an Israeli Jew think they were singing, "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles."

Jared Olar said...

By the way, it wasn't the Nazi party anthem, it was the German national anthem, even before the Nazis took over Germany I think.

Charlie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Charlie said...

Jared said: "By the way, it wasn't the Nazi party anthem, it was the German national anthem, even before the Nazis took over Germany I think."

That is correct. It is also commonly mistaken to be the Horst Wessel Song (Parts of which were incorporated into the national anthem during the Nazi reign) along with "Wacht am Rhein." (Which by the way had its words set to the tune of 'How Great Thou Art', another hymn)

Richard said...

I always wondered if anyone in the audience was uncomfortable with "Glorious things of thee are Spoken" when just a few years earlier it was "Deutchland Deutchland Uber Alles"?

At least one member was. A WCG pastor mentioned it in a sermon once -- about the woman coming up to him crying after hearing the hymnal version. He said he understood the woman's emotions about it.

jdschroeder said...

Deutchland Uber Alles is the German national anthem. It is a setting of patriotic lyrics over a melody from the slow movement of a Haydn String Quartet. Despite its innocent beginnings, it is now reviled in many areas for the obvious reasons. Here's a blurb from Wikipedia.

[It is] "the national anthem of Germany, introduced after the downfall of the German monarchy at the end of World War I. It has been Germany's national anthem ever since, still sung, though, without the first two stanzas to avoid any expressions of superiority. The anthem, "Das Lied der Deutschen" or "Deutschlandlied" is a nineteenth century patriotic song, the lyrics written by August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben on the then-British island of Helgoland in 1841, with music based upon an eighteenth century string quartet by Joseph Haydn. It begins with the words "Deutschland, Deutschland ├╝ber alles." The word-for-word translation of this line is "Germany above all," which the author intended to mean that a unified Germany was more desirable than the continued division of the Germanophonic countries (Sprachraum) into independent states. During the days of the Third Reich, anti-German political propaganda claimed the anthem was a typical Nazi expression of racial superiority, something the Nazis did nothing to dispel. To avoid such misunderstanding, only the third verse of the anthem, "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (literally: Unity and Justice and Freedom) is used nowadays. The lines "From the Maas to Memel (rivers), from the Etsch to the Belt" are nowadays understood as a German-expansionist claim. In the formerly communist East German GDR the anthem was forbidden."

Lussenheide said...

Its hard being a German.

With descecnt from names like Siedenstryker, Buchmueller, Lussenheide, et al., us poor Krauts must always bare the blame, shame and sins of the misguided Austrian with the funny mustache.

Growing up in the 60s, I always had to be the "Nazi" whenever we played war as kids in the neighborhood. (Which was usually daily!) TV shows like Rat Patrol, Combat, 12 O'clock High, and Hogans Heroes dominated the TV dial for the WWII vets to enjoy. So anti-German sentiment was still high in the USA. However, when we played war, I did get to use a "beer bottle" as a grenade (shaped like the Nazi grenade) , whereas the "Allies" just used any round object for a grenade (like a dirt clod) . Usually on my team was the only other "Axis Kid" in the neighborhood, (East Los Angeles is very predominately Hispanic) which was Glenn Sasaki who got to be the "Nip".

So it was usually us two against 20, so inevitably we always lost playing war! LOL! However, I didnt go blind get shot at by Daisy Bee Bee guns, but did get shot right on the butt from close range on one occasion, which really smarted!

So I hereby ask, am I at the bottom the barrel on the world's social ladder being a ...

German, White, Male, Middle Aged, Heterosexual, Republican, Employed, Married, Father, Christian, Sabbatarian, Ex- Cult member?? :-)

Even in the WCG, although you were considered to be "white", Germans were a peg lower than "Israelites" and got to know quickly that you were an "Assyrian" and not the chosen people. Im sure that Italians and Polish or Russian folks in the WCG, sort of figured out the ethnic social order quickly. You could always be thankful though that you werent Oriental, or heaven forgive "Negroid" in the WCG, so I settled for "White, but not quite" in the social order.

PS- I do miss those childhood days, when just being a normal boy and doing boy mischief was considered 100% proper and expected!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

DennisDiehl said...

Bill!

German, White, Male, Middle Aged, Heterosexual, Republican, Employed, Married, Father, Christian, Sabbatarian, Ex- Cult member?? :-)

German I can forgive, I am Herr Diehl after all. Male, middle aged, hetero blah blah is all acceptable.

But Republican? REPUBLICAN! Ohhhhh the humanity of it!

Being mostly Dutch, we played resistance fighters when I was a kid. We pulled the damn Krauts from the family car and sprayed them with our Mattel Tommy Guns. We smuggled pistols in our bicycle bags through the German checkpoints at the end of yard. Dirt clods were great grenades because when you did that . pppeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, thunk, kaaaaasluuuuuurge! sound (that hard to spell) it gave off dust and we knew the dirty Krauts were dead. We still moved in and cut their throats though.

Then we had to clean up for Evening Church and go to youth league at the Calvinist Church with all the resistance and krauts singing "Glorious things of thee are spoken" no knowing we were buying right into the dirty Kraut propaganda. After church we pffffffffft ed em with our Tommy guns again which we kept in the family car just in case :)

I wanna be a kid again! I miss my Mattel Burp Gun.

DennisDiehl said...

PS a few short years later..I was captured by radio GTA and suckerd into an ambush. After four years of interregation, torture and brainwashing, I was a beat man. Robot like I was thrown out into the field to wander, alone and like a zombie freak of nature. My friends turned their heads in shock and horror at what the British Israelites had done to me, mistaking me for a Jerry.

I read my dogearred copy of Rescuing the Bible from fundamentalism under my blanket at night to a match. But one night, the BI's caught me. I was tortured mercilessly having to listen to Gerald Waterhouse tapes until I cracked. I cracked, I did crack...I'm sooorrryyyy, I couldn't take it.

The last thing I remember I was dropped off in South Carolina, alone and confused. But I got on EBay and found a Mattel Burp Gun and rejoined the resistance.

We can win this war...come any closer and I'll throw this dirt clod. :)

Lussenheide said...

Dennis:

Thank you for letting me know that there is another freak out there that "mind maps" weird stuff with a sense of sardonic wit, irreverance and fantasy.

Perhaps we can get a discount from the Psychotherapist if we both sign up together!

Luv
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

DennisDiehl said...

The Lussmeister said:

"Perhaps we can get a discount from the Psychotherapist if we both sign up together!"

I believe we can and if you can produce an old feast sticker, we can do even better. 10% off for a green one, 20% for a yellow handicapped and 50% for Ministerial Orange.

If you can't come up with a sticker, just mutter stuff like "I'm going to be God as God is God.." or "We will rule from Jerusalem with the 12 Apostles" and he'll get us right in. :)

Bamboo_bends said...

Lussenheide said...

Growing up in the 60s, I always had to be the "Nazi" whenever we played war as kids in the neighborhood. (Which was usually daily!) TV shows like Rat Patrol, Combat, 12 O'clock High, and Hogans Heroes dominated the TV dial for the WWII vets to enjoy. So anti-German sentiment was still high in the USA. However, when we played war, I did get to use a "beer bottle" as a grenade (shaped like the Nazi grenade) , whereas the "Allies" just used any round object for a grenade (like a dirt clod) . Usually on my team was the only other "Axis Kid" in the neighborhood, (East Los Angeles is very predominately Hispanic) which was Glenn Sasaki who got to be the "Nip".



We used old D Cell batteries that no longer worked for grenades.

One time we got creative and took dad's dichondra sod plugger and used it it to make "land mines", which was a sod plug hole with a battery in it.

Oh those were the days weren't they? That and those great toy rifles that shot spring loaded plastic bullets! Nobody lost any eyes. Did you have one of those water rockets too?


So it was usually us two against 20, so inevitably we always lost playing war! LOL! However, I didnt go blind get shot at by Daisy Bee Bee guns, but did get shot right on the butt from close range on one occasion, which really smarted!


bbguns! Yikes, they really did dislike the German kids! Dirt clods was as severe as we got, unless of course someone breached protocol and started tossing rocks.

Neotherm said...

Germans had a hard time in the old WCG. Back in the Sixties a church member told me that song leaders did not like to have us sing "Glorious Things" too often because it would stir up the Germans in the congregation. It was like they were, just beneath the surface, all Nazis and a good rousing song would get us all killed.

Back in the Seventies a friend of mine asked David Robinson why there were so many problems in the church. He replied that it was due to the "German element in the ministry."


-- Neo

VonHowitzer said...

Herr Lussenheide, ach du liebe!!

What kind of friends did you have? In my neighborhood, the sons of the Allies and the sohne of the Vaterland (mir!) kampfed mit dem Japanese - well, make believe Japanese. There were only about half a dozen of us at the most in the dirt clod militia.

(BTW, you are not the only white male christian republican heterosexual posting here.)

As for the "Glorious things" hymn, it always left me with a strong urge to send the tanks east and invade Poland. But maybe that's because the family came from Prussia: had we come from Bavaria the invasion might have stalled at the nearest Bier Garten.

One thing that bothered me when I was growing up was the depiction of Germans on TV and in the movies. Then there was the line about Germans starting wars but never winning them - I learned to answer by just pointed out that it only took the rest of the world to do it.

KMS

Anonymous said...

And now all of your questions are answered.

Why do folks like Bob Thiel have such an intense need to exploit the deaths of other religious leaders to further their own church's agendas?

Because he’s two mints in one: mean and insane. He’s also a fake doctor for bonus points!

Few speak of the "secret police force" called the "Danites" or "Avenging Angels" who enforced Mormon doctrine and politics, literally with murder and disappearance into the nite of the Utah desert.

I see Mitt Romney has some convincing to do.

I agree, the emergency preparedness kit (for up to thirty days) is a good idea. Knowing how to forage and drive off gangs of wild looters, well that's not likely to be necessary in the area of the world I'm in right now so pooey on that.

Zombies. You forgot about the zombies.

Pony tails on men. Now there's a subject to really sink your conservative fangs into!

That’s how you spot the zombies. The pony tail is a dead giveaway.

Why is it wrong for me to eat pork but obviously not for the early Americans, who God obviously blessed?

Moreover, why would God obviously bless a country largely founded by Deists.

I personally believe that all the Christians, whom we in WCG were taught to disrespect, are influencing the possible outcome of the timing of the end. Their influence does put the brakes on, so to speak, and prevent society at large from sinking to the depths of Sodom and Gomorah.

Right. And I call on all good Christians to use that power now upon the New York Giants. Or I will be forced to actually talk to people at the Super Bowl party I am going to.

So I hereby ask, am I at the bottom the barrel on the world's social ladder being a ..
German, White, Male, Middle Aged, Heterosexual, Republican, Employed, Married, Father, Christian, Sabbatarian, Ex- Cult member?? :-)

Are you a Romney Republican or a McCain Republican? You rate last place only if you are for Ron Paul. Otherwise you are in next to last place or second to next place.

Mark Lax
HRC Backer
(All we are saying is Give B*tch a Chance!)

DennisDiehl said...

I forgot we also tapped pistols to the handlebars of our bikes for that total German motorcycle look..ha.

In the 60's we switched briefly to genocide on all Native Americans as military weapons fell into disfavor or overuse.

I did go down to more than one stick held firmly against my chest in the upright position after that fffffffffthwat...ugh...experience...ha ha.

But don't worry, back then, you gave them a big tug with another ..."ugh" and kept on shooting the "Fanner 50" until she practically melted with unending bullets.

Anonymous said...

The new European National Anthem is in the CGI Hymnal: Joyful, Joyful we adore thee. Tune from Beethoven's 9th

DennisDiehl said...

However, and aside from knowing in my soul that I was wrong in how I came to view the Bible and taught it, I can't seem to get the knife out of my back.

No wait, that's no way to think...
"uuuuuuuuuuugh ttthhuuup!"

There, got it! Life goes on :)

Charlie said...

Playing war with the neighborhood kids growing up was a lot of fun...until everyone realized I had four sisters. Our advance stalled out quickly because everyone but me was always getting 'wounded' and had to go to the 'nurse'. After getting tired of that, I would go play in someone else's neighborhood. ;)

As for the German kids, they didn't get picked on any more than anyone else, but if we didn't like someone they automatically became 'commies'.

And we White, heterosexual, Christian, employed, taxpaying, married, father, divorced, remarried, father, Republicans don't like commies very much! LOL!

--- Republicans for OBAMA 2008!!!! ---

DennisDiehl said...

and can we ever forget..

"I got you.."
"Did not!"
"Did too, I got you good."
"Did not, you missed."
"I didn't miss, I gooot you!"
"I got you first.."
"Oh you did not..you never even fired."
"Did too"
"Did not."


from behind....blam, blam blam blam, burrrrp burrrrp burrrrp...

"Well we got you NOW!"
"uh uh...time out."

aaaarggggggggggghhhhh!!!!

Charlie said...

Dennis, I remember that very well! ROTFL

DennisDiehl said...

Hi Charlie,
Sounds like some of the adult banter here on AW too..ha We never really grow up!

Anonymous said...

"You rate last place only if you are for Ron Paul."

Then I will be last, with dignity intact.


Paul

Ron Paul 2008

Corky said...

Well, I think things are too screwed for even a Bill Clinton to straighten out this time.

The Republicans should stay in and ride that train to where it's headed - the bottom.

At least then, maybe, people will wake up and learn something.

You would have thought folks would have learned a lesson from Hoover and the great depression. But no, back came the republicans after the democrat FDR straightened everything out.

Then after 12 years of failed Reaganomics "trickle down" thingy and with the republicans hollering "stay the course", we elected a democrat who straigtens everything out in just three months in office.

It won't happen again though, Bush Jr. has it so screwed up that no one can straigten it out.

Oh, I forgot, Jesus will return and straighten it all out for us.

Of course, Rome lasted a long time as an empire - until they tried to police the whole world . . .

There's a lesson in history to be learned there . . . somewhere.

DennisDiehl said...

Even Ann "It's a man baby" Coulter and Rush Limbaugh having fits over a MCCain Presidency. Coulter has thrown her support (as if we care) to Hillary!

Let's face it. Hillary was chosen long ago and they just have to make it look like we picked her.

"Dennis...Nothing in this world is as you are being told."
Retired CIA Client

Corky said...

You're right, Dennis, a lot of bad stuff is about to go down and the powers that be need a scapegoat for everyone to hate and it looks like Hillary is the chosen one.

Anonymous said...

"and the powers that be need a scapegoat for everyone to hate and it looks like Hillary is the chosen one."

So the powers that be are Republican? Exactly who are these "powers that be?" Are we talking NWO/Illuminati, or something more mundane, like a Global White Good Ol Boy Network?

Why Hillary? Why not a Republican? It seems that Republican politicians aren't viewed very favorably these days, considering the Iraq War and all. It would be very easy to attribute what is coming down the pipe to another Bush.

The fact is, our current problems (de-valued dollar, inflation, a massive, bloated, all-intruding Federal government, a Roman-esque foreign policy, curtailed civil liberties, massive debt, the borrowing of foreign money to stay afloat, ect) are to be laid at the feet of both parties and the seed of our current situation was planted over a hundred years ago.

Either way, a vote for Hillary, Obama, McCain, or Romney, is a vote for the continuation of the problems I listed above. One party will continue in the Welfare State while the other in the Warfare State, both ignoring the fact that our government is a mutation of what it was, what the Founders set it up to be, and what the Constitution intended it to be.

www.ronpaul208.com

Paul

Anonymous said...

Sorry...

www.ronpaul2008.com

Anonymous said...

The fact is, our current problems (de-valued dollar, inflation, a massive, bloated, all-intruding Federal government, a Roman-esque foreign policy, curtailed civil liberties, massive debt, the borrowing of foreign money to stay afloat, ect) are to be laid at the feet of both parties and the seed of our current situation was planted over a hundred years ago.

Either way, a vote for Hillary, Obama, McCain, or Romney, is a vote for the continuation of the problems I listed above. One party will continue in the Welfare State while the other in the Warfare State, both ignoring the fact that our government is a mutation of what it was, what the Founders set it up to be, and what the Constitution intended it to be.


Amen and Amen!


Amen

Neotherm said...

I predict that if either H. Clinton or B. Obama wins the Presidency, there will be a tribulation frenzy in the XCOGs leading inevitably to an increased cash flow for the many, competing "one and only true" churches.

Publicly the leaders of the XCOGs will be preaching against "strangers and women" ruling over the people of Israel and privately will be looking forward to better economic times.

-- Neo

Lussenheide said...

There were several great toy guns made during the sixties. One of my favorites was Topper's Johnny Seven.

Johnny Seven had all of the essentials - gun, helmet and combat phones. The thing that made this line special however, was the gun. This baby was a yard long and chock full of the things that boys/men love to this day - gizmos galore!

The Johnny Seven offered seven weapons in one. It could do all of the following...


*launched a grenade
*fired an anti-tank rocket
*shot an armor-piercing shell
*chucked an anti-bunker missle
*shot 10 bullets as a rifle
*made a rat-a-tat-tat sound as a tommy gun
*had a pistol that detaches and functions as a cap gun

picture here:
http://sp1.mm-a7.yimg.com/image/3906267883

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

VonHowitzer said...

Well, lets see what we have here...

In California, some civil servants float an idea to give them control over your home thermostat.

In Washington, they've outlawed incandescent light bulbs after 2012(?), so we can all go out and buy compact fluorescents that create toxic spill sites whenever they get broken.

Locally, some editors at the newspaper are advocating traffic law enforcement by means of cameras along our streets and highways.

I could go on, and on, but when the primary came around here in Nevada I voted for Ron Paul. Time to stop the democan/republicrat madness, and give real freedom back to the people.

KMS

Tired Skeptic said...

"Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!"

Gavin, some of us do understand and appreciate your frustration. Although it may have escaped some, the current topic seems rather a culmination of years of exposure to the realities of Armstrongism which the Armstrongists simply haven't had the wit to comprehend:

Adolph Hitler is not hiding out in the jungles of South America planning a resurrected Fourth Reich

The Bible does not predict world events in advance.

Germany is not Assyria.

The US and Britain are not Ephraim and Manasseh.

The Tribulation did not begin in 1972.


And yet, even so, the Armstrongists continue to claim that because nothing has happened it is a sure sign something will.

Right in the middle of his praise of George W. Bush in his pursuit of war in Iraq, Rex Sexton said in services, Whoso lives by the sword shall die by the sword. He was astonished that he said it and the look on his face was priceless. He didn't have an explanation for what he said, although those who believe in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit certainly have an explanation for what could be The Balaam's Ass Award....

And therein hangs a tale: The CoG ministry wants to have it both ways as Conservative and Ultra Conservative Republican Dog Owners. You'd think, even to this day, that each of the ministers was stumping for his favorite candidate for the political primaries, even though they don't vote. Most of them, at least. At least publicly. But here's the deal: Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world. Therefore, the only candidate that Jesus would ever vote for is himself because in the end, everyone else is irrelevant.

The reasons of just why the ministers don't get it isn't clear. After all, Herbert Armstrong thundered the message for decades and they have been repeating it for a couple of decades more after his death. Just how they can reconcile the obvious cognitive dissonance is a tribute to the mechanisms of compartmentalization: They manage to appear to be sane, professing the utterly nuttiest things and they really have to know better.

Next year in 2009, the Chinese will be completing the greatest engineering marvel the world has ever seen: The largest dam in the world. They've been working on the project in one form or another for half a century. When completed, it will provide all the electricity for, if not the largest city in the world, at least one of the largest cities in the world. Even then, the dam thing will only provide 3% of the electrical power China needs.

China is an astounding super power. The Great Wall is one of the few structures which can seen with the naked eye from a satellite. The pollution they produce drifts across the ocean to provide up to 30% of the air pollution in San Francisco. They have nuclear power and shoot off Intercontinental missiles [and yes, they will keep working at it until they work right]. Their armies are awesome. And the United States owes them hundreds of billions of dollars. China is making more and more of the goods for the United States. The standard of living continues to increase for the Chinese while it declines in the United States. They are an industrious people, not unlike the ants of Proverbs fame, whereas, the Americans and Brits seem to have lost the flare for industry, what with less than 10% of the workers dedicated to manufacturing enterprises.

It should not surprise anyone at this forum that the finest scientific minds in the world as members of the Analog and Asimov's forums believe that the future holds that China will be the next great superpower of the world and the United States will be a much lesser nation. In this scenario, the Americans will become a rather poor people, relegated to third world status or worse. After all, China has all the natural resources far and away and beyond what the United States can dredge up.

Furthermore, China has more oil than the Middle East. At some point, the Chinese may find it worth their while to eliminate the threat of Islam by "taking care" of the Arab nations without so much as "by your leave". If it is in their best interest to do so, they have the will.

More likely than not, the takeover of the United States will never be the result of war: It will be economic. It is already shaping up that way. The Chinese can simply use the American dollars to buy up most or all of the available land in the United States while mortgage companies are having a fire sale. Short sighted Illegal Mexican immigrants may very well be clamoring to get back over the wall to a more prosperous country, only to be turned back at the borders by their countrymen not wanting them to return.

None of the things just mentioned are on the radar for the Armstrongists because they live in a deluded fantasy world created by an insane false prophet using proof texting to force Scripture to say things which are not in the Bible at all. The Armstrongist ministry is forced into the unenviable position of having to believe in crap simply because their jobs and retirement depends on it. Thus it is that silly pronouncements borne of desperation continue to proceed from the mouths of incompetents at a time when the daily news is shaping up to prove them wrong. Some may be smart enough, but if they are, they are brilliant fools.

Thus far, if one were to assume that the ministry and leadership of the church of gods were Christian, the score is Lions 10, Christians nothing.

Which brings us to martyrdom and the final words of the Bible in Revelation: There will be no form of the rapture, there is no place of safety, Germany will not rise up and take over Europe to make slaves of Americans [in spite of Commonwealth xCoG ministers wishing it to be so]. But thus far, no one has been listening to Gavin or any of the rest of us, hence the "Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!"

As has been pointed out before, in the end, the Armstrongists are terribly short sighted. What if there will be the Fall of the United States and the Great Tribulation. After that, in the briefest of times, the Millennium will come and go in a flash and the Second Resurrection will disappear in an eye blink. It will all be over, finally God the Father will wipe away every tear and comfort the nations, there will be no more human beings and the future will be one of immortal spirit beings. If this were to be true, is there any position for wanna be despots clinging to the idea that they're going to be THE BIG CHEESE in the Kingdom, lording it up over others, living in splendor and having slaves worshiping them and waiting on them literally hand and foot? Where's the future in that?

OK then. The Armstrongists are never going to get what they want. For one thing, in the long term, their narcissism will not be served. Furthermore, they will be relegated to near nothingness in the great multitude. Moreover, their prophecies will continue to fail as the realities of the world around them come crashing down upon them. All they will have left in their declining years is their dog, until he dies too.

Anonymous said...

Tired Skeptic,

Well written blog post. I agree with many of your points particularly about China.

I think we are watching the collapse of the USA as we know it. However, it is not going to happen the way the Armstrong's predicted. When we sat in WCG in the 1960s and 1970s, we heard next to nothing about China as an emerging super power or Islamic terrorists. The 9/11 terrorists did not look German to me.

The decline of the USA will give fuel to the Armstrongists, and I do echo the prediction of another poster that bad times mean more income to the ACOGs.

I believe the stage is being set for the USA to be relegated to a third world economic slave state status, while China emerges as a superpower. China has cash, and USA has debt - lots of debt.

Richard

Charlie said...

corky said: "You're right, Dennis, a lot of bad stuff is about to go down and the powers that be need a scapegoat for everyone to hate and it looks like Hillary is the chosen one."

This really is too big a deal to be a conspiracy. The real problem is that we as a nation failed to heed Washington's warnings in his farewell address. We elected our own trouble and the line that divides us as a nation is more defined than ever.

We need to throw the bums out and start over.

However, since we elected bums that made the types of weapons needed to overthrow the government illegal (how convenient), we'll have to do it a different way. I certainly don't look forward to the time when China calls us to collect on their note.

Suggestions that DO NOT include waiting for Christ's return are welcome.

OBAMA 2008 (He is really the only guy that wants to change things)

Anonymous said...

"(He is really the only guy that wants to change things)"


What is Obama's stance or plan for:

1. Reducing a massive Federal Government?

2. Firearms restriction (the only thing that we have to stop a massive government entity.

3. Elevating the value of the dollar.

4. How will Obama reduce our national debt?

5. How will Obama bring American companies back from overseas?

6. How will Obama reduce our suckling at the financial teat of China and other countries?

7. How will Obama halt the current restrictions on our civil liberties?

8. Will Obama bring the troops home from Iraq immediately?

9. What will Obama do regarding our foreign policy of the last 100 years?

10. What will Obama do about inflation? A possible reccession?



I am sorry, but I see no "change" from Obama other than his use of the word "change." Most of the candidates simply do not address the real issues....they address tangential issues that both pary constituents have in the forefront of their minds:

1. How much free money are you gonna give me, cause I am entitled to it, and

2. What are you going to do about the War on Terror and abortion and homosexual marriage and the Ten Commandments, cause these things are rilly, rilly important.

Paul

Look at Ron Paul's platform. Talk about change? You haven't seen this much change since a couple of guys with ponytails decided to break from a massive, intrusive British government back in the 1700's.

www.ronpaul2008.com

Tired Skeptic said...

If you really want significant change, then you can start with one very simple one with very high impact:

Eliminate the legal fiction that a corporation is a legal person able to own property -- make it so corporations can't own property and as part of the deal, expand the liability for corporate owners so they have to take responsibility when things go awry.

That's it.

And one other thing might be helpful: Never, never, never, ever again, elect two former Corporate Oil CEOs to run the United States. Conflict of interest and all that. They might decide to start wars without approval from Congress to protect the interests of Big Oil Corporations so they have the biggest profits yet. If the American people elected such corporate thugs, they might find themselves embroiled in messy conflicts with unnecessary casualties, ending up owning China hundreds of billions of dollars, alienate allies and driving the American people not into recession, but into a full fledged depression with lots of people losing their jobs.

Hey. It could happen.

As for the Church Corporate, that's a bad idea too. Can anyone give us examples of why?

I would heartily recommend that the American people become very diligent in their labors, become much more productive, watch the state of their flocks and herds very carefully and take responsibility for their own lives and not let some political hack promise them a free lunch with gold, silver and Steuben Crystal tableware, as if no one ever had to pay for it, no matter how appealing it is, because there's a catch somewhere and the tradeoffs won't be pleasant to pay for. If they don't, some other nation which is much more hungry and earnestly diligent will take everything the Americans once had.

One should note that the Armstrongist ministers have the philosophy of getting something for nothing: A free ride on tithes and offerings and at the end of it, ruling over miserable slave victims. Those of us who are technologists know that the Universe doesn't give out free lunches: You do exactly what the Universe specifies as process and it will give you what you want, minus a tithe in entropy. There isn't any cheating it. You can't fool it, con it or schmooze it out of its proper due if you want what it has to offer because the Universe is entirely pragmatic and doesn't really care what you do. It will be interesting to see the full flower of the doings of the Armstrongist ministry attempting to employ magic when the bill comes due -- and for some -- the dead ones -- it already has without much to show for it. The technologists are waiting. We know something they don't want to admit.

Byker Bob said...

I believe that we in the USA are experiencing some temporary hardships because Keynsian economics are being exported to third world countries, and the world's overall condition is going to be improved, elliminating a lot of the poverty.

You can see this in action in such countries as China and India, both of which are becoming economic powerhouses. Once their peoples can afford the goods they manufacture, the entire world will begin to be a huge consumer base.

I am concerned with the ways in which our leaders deal with existential threats. Whether or not one acknowledges global warming, there are other threats. The bomb is still very much with us, as is the German aquarium algae that is taking over large areas of our oceans. And, the magnetic polarity of the earth is in the process of reversing itself.

I really don't believe that it matters which party is in control of the presidency, because that person is beholden to so many checks and balances. The reason we're in Iraq is that so many others besides President Bush signed off on it.

Ron Paul has been researched and proven to have been just as much a racist as David Duke. You should have heard all of the materials presented on Michael Medved's radio program! He's a dangerous demagogue, and has absolutely zero chance of getting elected. The fact that all of the conspiracy nutjobs worship him should tell us all we really need to know about him. Even (gasp!) Hillary is a more preferable alternative than Paul.

BB

Neotherm said...

During this century, China will become the largest Christian Nation on earth, even though Christianity is not one of China's leading religions. Christianity in China is growing dramatically. I do expect China to replace the USA as the leading nation in the world with India a close second. China will be an ally with the Western World against radical Islam.

Short term, China's polluting economy will exacerbate Global Warming.

Any way you slice it, China will have an enormous impact on the world during this century.

No matter how reality changes, Armstrongism will persist. If Armstrongites are confronted with events that contravene their cherished beliefs, they will not abandon Armstrongism, they will just fall back and regroup.

This is because Armstrongism is more than a religious philosophy. It is a belief system that meets human needs. The people who need this kind of system are magnetically attracted to Armstrongism and will always defend and preserve it. Those needs will never go away so Armstrongism will never go away.

Atheism is a just another variation on this same theme. There are people who need atheism.
It meets their human needs. It is their security blanket. The same is true of every religious philosophy. That's why each belief system has fans.

Is orthodox Christianity the same as all these other religious philosopies? No.

The Place of Safety and, I believe, the Rapture are both fairy tales, intended to be a defense against this frightening world. You can't really blame people for being afraid. It just becomes offensive when it leads to an exclusivistic smarminess as among Armstrongites.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

"Both Jefferson and Washington warned us about entangling ourselves in the affairs of other nations. Today, we have troops in 130 countries. We are spread so thin that we have too few troops defending America... We can continue to fund and fight no-win police actions around the globe, or we can refocus on securing America and bring the troops home. No war should ever be fought without a declaration of war voted upon by the Congress, as required by the Constitution...Too often we have supported those who turn on us, like the Kosovars who aid Islamic terrorists, or the Afghan jihadists themselves, and their friend Osama bin Laden. We armed and trained them, and now we’re paying the price.

At the same time, we must not isolate ourselves. The generosity of the American people has been felt around the globe. Many have thanked God for it, in many languages. Let us have a strong America, conducting open trade, travel, communication, and diplomacy with other nations."


"I share our Founders’ belief that in a free society each citizen must have the right to keep and bear arms. They ratified the Second Amendment knowing that this right is the guardian of every other right, and they all would be horrified by the proliferation of unconstitutional legislation that prevents law-abiding Americans from exercising this right."


"Supporters of the Patriot Act argue that its provisions have not been abused since its passage in 2001. In essence, Justice Department officials are claiming, “Trust us-- we’re the government and we say the Patriot Act does not threaten civil liberties.” But this argument misses the point. Government assurances simply are not good enough in a free society...Many of the most constitutionally offensive measures in the Act are not limited to terrorist offenses, but apply to any criminal activity...The bill as written defines terrorism as acts intended “to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion.” Under this broad definition, a scuffle at an otherwise peaceful pro-life demonstration might subject attendees to a federal investigation....The Patriot Act waters down the Fourth amendment by expanding the federal government's ability to use wiretaps without judicial oversight. The requirement of a search warrant and probable cause strikes a balance between effective law enforcement and civil liberties. Any attempt to dilute the warrant requirement threatens innocent citizens with a loss of their liberty."


"In a very real sense, the Fed and the government are close to going over the spending limit of our nation’s credit card. We rely on foreign investors to buy our debt so our government can maintain its appetite for spending. Yet the market for US Treasury Bonds is rapidly shrinking as yield declines. Still the government will need an estimated $100 billion more for every year we “stay the course” in Iraq , not to mention what a possible conflict in Iran could cost...
Printing more money is the Fed’s typical answer, but we are on the verge of runaway inflation. We have printed so many dollars now that we are at parity with the Canadian dollar for the first time since 1976."


"The greatest threat facing America today is not terrorism, or foreign economic competition, or illegal immigration. The greatest threat facing America today is the disastrous fiscal policies of our own government, marked by shameless deficit spending and Federal Reserve currency devaluation. It is this one-two punch-- Congress spending more than it can tax or borrow, and the Fed printing money to make up the difference-- that threatens to impoverish us by further destroying the value of our dollars."


"Our Founders instituted a republican system to protect individual rights and property rights from tyranny, regardless of whether the tyrant was a king, a monarchy, a congress, or an unelected mob. They believed that a representative government, restrained by the Bill of Rights and divided into three power sharing branches, would balance the competing interests of the population."


"Hundreds of thousands of American troops already occupy Afghanistan and Iraq, a number that is rising as the military surge moves forward. The justification, given endlessly since September 11th, is that both support terrorism and thus pose a risk to the United States. Yet when we step back and examine the region as a whole, it’s obvious that these two impoverished countries, neither of which has any real military, pose very little threat to American national security when compared to other Middle Eastern nations. The decision to attack them, while treating some of region’s worst regimes as allies, shows the deadly hypocrisy of our foreign policy in the Middle East.

Consider Saudi Arabia, the native home of most of the September 11th hijackers...."


"But today, too many politicians and lobbyists are spending America into ruin. We are nine trillion dollars in debt as a nation. Our mounting government debt endangers the financial future of our children and grandchildren. If we don’t cut spending now, higher taxes and economic disaster will be in their future — and yours.

In addition, the Federal Reserve, our central bank, fosters runaway debt by increasing the money supply — making each dollar in your pocket worth less. The Fed is a private bank run by unelected officials who are not required to be open or accountable to “we the people.” "




http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/


Paul

Anonymous said...

"Ron Paul has been researched and proven to have been just as much a racist as David Duke."

Really? I assume to are refering to the newsletters that he did not author, which have been covered for over ten years?

"You should have heard all of the materials presented on Michael Medved's radio program!"

Sounds like me a few years ago... when I got my political info from listening to Hannity and Limbaugh.


"He's a dangerous demagogue,"

How, exactly? How does a man who despises government control over the citizenry, who holds the Consititution as sacred, and wants to end the Iraq war immediately a danger? With a ten term voting record to prove it? Well, he is a danger to warfare and welfarism, I'll give you that. He is a danger to our modern form of government, with it's massive taxations and Patriot Acts, ect.


"...and has absolutely zero chance of getting elected."

So you vote on electibility? I vote on my principles. That's why we have politicians who do not represent their constituents. They know that people will vote for them for the following reason:

1. To keep the "other guys" out of office, be it Democrat or Republican.

Therefore, why should a Democrat stop the war? Why should a social conservative ban abortion? Why be risky when you will get the vote anyway?

We need to start voting on principles, not on keeping the other guy out of office. If we don't, then Democrats will continue to compromise liberal positions, and Republicans will continue to compromise conservative postions.

Paul

Anonymous said...

It's now February add March and April. What we have here is about 90 days for life as we know it. For all who follow Ron Weinland, the Great Tribulation starts at the end of April.So in about 100 days or so I'm thinking that 1/3 of the USA, Canada, the UK,Australia, New Zealand,Norway, Sweden, Findland, Ireland,Switzerland,the Low countries, Iceland will be in German concentration camps.

Another 1/3 dead,and 1/3 left to hide in the woods.

So is it O.K. to skip my taxes due in April? May I cash in my 401K plan and live it up?

Not being a member of Ron's church puts me in harms way it seems.

One side of me thinks it's sick of us to call him 'ole Ronnie boy or rottin' Ron. He's a sick man. Or is he a slick con artist with a high income.

May 1st he'll have some explaining to do.

Tired Skeptic said...

A really, really, really BIG problem is one of not planning ahead. Herbert Arsetrong was able to cover his profligate spending in manic mode by sending out a coworker letter, but for the rest of us, that doesn't work so good. Really Big Corporations don't look beyond the next quarter's profits. And as for the political candidates... It's pretty much looking to get elected, as if nothing else mattered, but when they do, they'll all go, "Shoot, what do we do now!!!?!!".

On the other hand, you have China, which has been planning to build the biggest dam in the world for over half a century -- by consensus within the council of leadership. This is a multigenerational effort based on very high foresight. They've looked at the problems and don't see another solution -- even if it means displacing over a million people as the dam fills up. One should also note that their ideographic written language is much more complex than the simpler alphabet languages, which, at minimum, suggest that they have to develop a more complex neocortex, giving them a decided advantage in the intelligence department.

India, also, has some very advanced people, 500 million of which speak passable enough English to answer at the call centers when you need assistance with, say, your home computer. By the way, I work with a very sophisticated technologist from India. Although anecdotal, I surmise from my daily experience that the average American can't begin to compete in either the intelligence or foresight department.

Perhaps others here are right: Armstrongism must exist because it fulfills a human need, not unlike schizophrenia and bipolar disease fulfills a human need. And so far, what I've seen of it all, Armstrongism is strongly based in both schizophrenia and bipolar disease, but at least there are treatment programs for the mental diseases whereas Armstrongism seems to stand as an uncurable scourge.

As for the predictions of Armstrongism, whether they actually come to pass or not, they're in the same boat as the politicians: When they get to their destination, they'll all be saying, "Shoot! What'll we do now?!?!?!!".

byker bob said...

What's wrong with taxing to support the services provided by government? Like roads, defense, and our social safety net?

And, what's wrong with the Patriot Act? I like it.

The last thing we need is some kookaboo radically disrupting the status quo and starting a horrible depression and social upheaval. Ron Paul's ONLY good is that he influences some debate topics amongst the more moderately inclined. We don't need a revolution, we need minor tuneup.

And, lastly, who says I get the totality of my opinions from and want to pattern my entire life after Michael Medved or Rush Limbaugh. I also listen to NPR, and am just as likely to quote them, or somebody on the McLaughlin Group.

Paul, you must be a binary thinker. All of the telltale signs are there. Your soundbites from Ron Paul tell one story, but you really need to think through the possible scenarios resulting from the law of unintended consequences. Oops, perhaps not. Maybe you still believe in silver bullets, and Ron Paul is your new HWA.

BB

BC said...

And, what's wrong with the Patriot Act?

It's massive and unplanned, and as all massive and unplanned things, it will come to no good end.

Tired Skeptic said...

The last thing we need is some kookaboo radically disrupting the status quo and starting a horrible depression and social upheaval.

Such as a big oil CEO turned president?

BC said...

schizophrenia and bipolar disease fulfills a human need

For without them, there wouldn't be political candidates.

Neotherm said...

I had a couple of regrettable encounters with Rex Sexton at AC Big Sandy. I find it disturbing that Sexton, like evangelicals, supports Bush's adventure in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The likes of Jim Hagee actively promote our involvement there based on the idea that those who bless Israel will be blessed. Through some reshaping of the truth, Hagee sees our Iraq policy as a blessing to Israel. A dubious conclusion.

No doubt there is some similar reasoning behind behind Sexton's preachments.

I believe in Biblical prophecy but I do not believe in the BI nonsense (BI, instead of being the key to prophecy, is the error that prevents Armstrongites from understanding prophecy. Armstrongism is full of these reversals in polarity). There is a rabbi in London who I think has the correct understanding of this.

His view is that the great army that will be destroyed by Christ at his return is a US Army (if we give the names recorded a racial instead of geographic meaning). Racially, the army will consist of descendants of Gomer and Magog who settled in the British Isles and carefully recorded their geneaologies so all would know their identity, and Hispanics and Blacks, and a mix of other peoples. In other words, an army that we would recognize anywhere -- the army of the United States if America.

Since the Jews are the preservers of the scriptures, maybe Hagee and Sexton should have a look.


http://www.imninalu.net/G&M.htm

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

"What's wrong with taxing to support the services provided by government? Like roads, defense..."


I don't have a problem with that, but I sincerely doubt it takes that much of the citizen's paycheck to accomplish these goals.


"...and our social safety net?"

I have no problem with helping out those who simply cannot, in no way, provide for themselves. But we are both aware that these people make up a small fraction of those that the welfare state caters to.



"And, what's wrong with the Patriot Act? I like it."

Number one, it violates our civil liberties. Secondly, in the wrong hands, it can be used to turn this nation into a police state/totalitarian government.

"The last thing we need is some kookaboo radically disrupting the status quo"

Ahhhh...there we go. The number one response I get from people opposed to Ron Paul. It's so much easier to use the word "nut," or "kook" instead of putting together a lucid, evidence-based argument as to why Ron Paul's policies are dangerous.

"... and starting a horrible depression and social upheaval."

Exactly how would his policies lead to this?



"We don't need a revolution, we need minor tuneup."

Then you find no fault with our current conditions? I suggest you read, or re-read, the Constitution, and do a bit of digging on the intent of the founding fathers and the circumstances surrounding the birth of this nation.

"And, lastly, who says I get the totality of my opinions from and want to pattern my entire life after Michael Medved or Rush Limbaugh. I also listen to NPR, and am just as likely to quote them, or somebody on the McLaughlin Group."

Exactly. You get your opinions from others instead of researching the subject and forming your own opinion.

"...but you really need to think through the possible scenarios resulting from the law of unintended consequences. Oops, perhaps not. Maybe you still believe in silver bullets, and Ron Paul is your new HWA."

I want the consequences. I do not fear them. A Ron Paul presidency would not be easy for me. I may have to find another job field. Times may be tough. But I can manage. The important thing is we need to return our nation to it's original course.

Paul

Tired Skeptic said...

The utter failure of Armstrongism

Beyond what Gavin stated to kick off the topic is the issue, And this gospel will be preached to all nations. For some of us, the ears are still ringing from Herbert Armstrong bellowing it from the pulpit. He pretended that going to the leaders for a fancy feast dinner at his own expense [ours, really] was sufficient to fulfill "The Great Commission".

He never really got to China, and therein hangs a tale. The Chinese, being busy getting ready to build their dam, didn't have time for him. And besides...

Yes, there are Christians in China and they have been there a long time. There are also Jewish converts, truth be told. And let's not forget the Sabbatarians. Someone else did the work. Maybe even those missionaries from the very church he betrayed for his own self-aggrandizement over issues he even later adopted. Or maybe not, maybe it was an earlier work from long ago.

So the Sabbath keeping Christians of China may be growing for all we know and there might be quite a few numerically.

One thing we do know for certain: That if there is, it wasn't because of Herbert Armstrong, but....

There are those of the church of gods persuasion of my acquaintance from outside the United States who have taken it upon themselves to attempt to enter into association of certain people in China. Trust me, this is not a good thing: It is utterly amazing how evil works can take root when aggressive psychopaths become established.

It should be noted that noted that Herbert Armstrong was responsible for certain ones of the church of gods persuasion to get started in the first place, along with not so vigilant field ministers who did nothing to stop the cult from developing.

Richard said...

The Bible does not predict world events in advance.

Those of us who still have some measure of faith (in God, not a church or a pastor) expect Jesus will come back someday.

What will those of you agreeing with that quote about the Bible say then?

Anonymous said...

My Vision if God and Jesus do return during a skeptical phase of life.

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was
walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the
sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene, he
noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one
belonging to him, and the other to the Lord.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he
looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life
there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed
that it happened at the very lowest and saddest
times in his life. This really bothered him and he
questioned the Lord about it.

"Lord, You said that
once I decided to follow you, You'd walk with me all
the way. But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life, there is only one set
of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed
you most you would leave me." The

Lord replied,

"My son, My precious child, I love you but I left you to walk alone. During your times of trial and
suffering, when you see only one set of footprints,they were yours. I don't like walking in sand as you were doing and felt you would learn more walking alone and thinking your experiences through. Otherwise I would have had to carry you like a big baby and we both would have sunk deeper into the sand. Sometimes you need time by yourself. Sometimes you have to loose your mind to come to your senses and the walk alone will do you good"

Bob said...

Actually, prophecy is quite real, legitimate and accurate. Just because those in the time frame you like to knock still had a lot to learn doesn't mean at all that it isn't real. Try this one on for size: http://www.64prn.com
And, watch the video on Gaza which is 48 minutes long. Then, return every few days or so and watch more of the real McCoy. Nothing like what you are talking about and ridiculing. Have fun.

mel said...

Tired Skeptic-

Actually, HWA did visit China and met with Mao's successor Deng Xiaping among others. It's mentioned in the November 18, 1984 co-worker letter.

I remember hearing a sermon in which he bragged and claimed that meeting(and other meetings) indicated that he was the end-time Elijah, iirc.

Reality said...

It may have been China HWA referred to when he proudly informed us all that he had prophesied Christ to them as he told them that, "A strong hand from somewhere" (or similar words) would come to them. If they believed him at all, they likely thought that the 'strong hand from somewhere' would be Buddah.

byker bob said...

Hey Paul,

Happy tinfoil to ya!

I do form my own opinions. I just happen to like a lot of input in so doing. Medved, in particular, is a great thinker. But, I'm not one of his disciples.

BTW, I believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights as a vibrant, living, breathing document that is flexible enough to change with our modern times. This antiquated notion of a static blueprint that must be gotten back to (like the faith once delivered) has been used to promote a great deal of stupidity. The past is the past. No way did the founding fathers have to deal with the extreme debauchery that is now routine for the criminal class.

BB

Anonymous said...

'The Bible does not predict world events in advance'

A major impact on world events was the life and subsequent influence of Jesus.

The Scriptures testified of him over previous centures, millennia

Stingerski said...

Paul said:

The important thing is we need to return our nation to it's original course.

Yes Paul, but that will never happen. Not even if Ron Paul got elected. It's way too late now. He could not undo in a mere 8 years (assuming he wasn't assassinated and he even got reelected) what has taken the last 150 years to do. The slide is now irreversible.

The best chance we had for that to happen was lost to us when the South lost their bid to secede from the Union of States. They wanted a divorce. But old Abe there said, "Nothing doing. This marriage is eternal."

After that, nothing stood in the way of the Federal Govt. from becoming the spousal abusing Almighty Govt. Which is exactly what it has become, and is now bankrupt. And has been bankrupt for quite some time.

But the drunken orgy can't continue. The Fed can't abuse the populace forever. Sooner or later, the spouse is going to catch him asleep one night and the dagger will be sunk deep.

Many of us here won't be around to see it, but the two "lines" will cross somewhere around 2040 (if not sooner). At that point it will take the entire federal budget just to cover all of our "entitlement" programs. If I were a young man again, I would get back into the survivalist movement (sans the nutty Armstrongology) and get prepared for the coming chaos in the streets. New Orleans right after Katrina was just a little fore taste.

Speaking of which, I'm glad I bought that mountain bike yesterday. :-)

Anonymous said...

"Happy tinfoil to ya!"

Either two conclusions here:

1. Bob simply doesn't have the time to demonstrate how Ron Paul and his policies are dangerous and nutty.

2. Bob can't demonstrate this because Ron Paul and his policies aren't dangerous and nutty...and Bob knows it.

Paul

Anonymous said...

"Yes Paul, but that will never happen. Not even if Ron Paul got elected. It's way too late now."

Of course...but it wouldn't hurt to have a Constitutionally-minded President to throw some much needed cold water on Congress and the public.

Paul

Byker Bob said...

3) Bob looks at the types of people who are embracing Ron Paul and realizes he's seen all he needs to see!

BB

Anonymous said...

"Bob looks at the types of people who are embracing Ron Paul and realizes he's seen all he needs to see!"

My local Ron Paul Meetup group (the grassroots portion of the campaign that raised almost 20 mil for Ron Paul in the 4th Q) is comprised of mainly middle-aged professionals, including scientists, business men, engineers, ect.


Paul

byker bob said...

Why how nice. Sounds like a collection of fairly professional individuals. Typically, how is their mental stability? Any signs of paranoia, or imbalance?

What other political action groups do they take part in? Any militia members, or KKK? What's their average IQ? Any MENSA members or Rhodes Scholars?

BB

Anonymous said...

Bob, you got me. We are a bunch of...well...kooks. Many of us support Ron Paul in hopes that marijuana will be legalized. The rest of us support him because it's chic on campus. None of us understand nor care about the real issues of the day, like Fighting The War on Terror or protecting the little guy from Corporate Interests. Hell, I only used the word "constitution" in my former posts because it was on my word of the day calender.

Paul

Byker Bob said...

Paul,

Seriously, you are entitled to your views, and I'm sure that like most of us, you've done some careful studying to support them.

I was just giving you a hard time because you're campaigning for Ron Paul here on a religious recovery/accountability blog. Others (or maybe yourself under a different screen name) are doing this on other ACOG related sites, and for the same candidate.

I haven't decided who I'm going to vote for, as I'm still weighing all the issues. I can tell you that I did not vote for Perot in '92, and am unlikely to vote for an independent, in spite of the fact that my personal political views are more in sync with the Libertarian Party than with the Republocratsicans (major parties).

BB

Dave L said...

"The Bible does not predict world events in advance."

Apparently you have missed the sign of the Pope dressed in red garters and lingerie as the Whore of Babylon trying to ride a n elephant, duck, leopard, monkey, ostrich, crocodile, horse, pig, sheep, and cat all tied together at the beach.

Pay up quick or you'll have forfeited your seat on Armstrongs private jet to the rock hole Jordan when world war III kicks off!