Wednesday, 23 January 2008

Place of Safety


All right class, pencils and paper out, time for a quick multiple choice question to see if you've been concentrating.

No Gerry, you may not go to the bathroom now.

Roderick PLEASE remove that pencil from your nostril, accidents happen that way.

Now here's the question; pay attention David!

What is the meaning of the term "place of safety"?

Yes Ronald, I can repeat the question... What is the meaning of "place of safety"?

Stop that whimpering Joe, you only have yourself to blame if you didn't do your homework, and besides, you can always use your excellent common sense to work out which of the answers is most likely.

Oh for mercy's sake, pick yourself off the floor and stop cackling like a loon Mark!

Now, here are your choices:

A. An old rock city in the Jordanian desert
B. A tax shelter in the Bahamas
C. A Nazi concentration camp
D. Denton, Texas
E. The first name given by the Pilgrims to Rhode Island

No Clyde, there isn't an "F" option with "all of the above."

Now pass your papers to the front. Frederick, kindly put your name at the top of the sheet, I am not a mind reader. Robert, you have misspelled your own name again.

Thank you children. William, put away that Prophecy Flash comic book immediately and come up here, I'd like you to read the correct answer from the dictionary of euphemisms.


***


Given the almost exclusive use of this term in a religious sense by COG people (as a Google search quickly shows) and the fact that it doesn't actually occur in the KJV Bible, a cynic might wonder whether HWA was indulging in a sick private joke when he adopted the expression. Why? Remember what the Place of Safety was meant to offer protection from?
"place of safety: an inhumane prison. Himmler's favored term for his concentration camps."
R. W. Holder, How Not To Say What You Mean: A Dictionary of Euphemisms. p.299

While it's an unlikely connection, it would be still interesting to know if there was any documented use of the expression by HWA prior to World War II.

92 comments:

Pax Vobiscum said...

The Contemporary English Version translation of Psalm 91:2 reads: "Then you will say to the LORD,

'You are my fortress,

my place of safety;

you are my God,

and I trust you.'"

(See also Pat Robertson's use of the phrase in expounding on this psalm in http://www.patrobertson.org/Teaching/Psalm91_2.asp.)

Anonymous said...

I really don't miss those apocalyptic sermons and articles at all.

Rest assured that my children are being spared the nightmares that accompany been fed that garbage while growing up in armstrongism.

Byker Bob said...

I was recently shocked to learn that this concept has passed into the consciousness of mainstream evangelical Christianity through the "Left Behind" novels, which are so popular because their characters are dealing with the rapture (invented about 170 years ago by Darby), the tribulation, and working to "save" the majority of humanity who were not raptured. Apparently, Petra plays quite a significant part in this series of novels.

So, what started out as Loma pointing out pictures of Petra to Herbert, as she read a travel magazine or National Geographic, is now part of mainstream Christianity. Seems Petra is going to be a mighty crowded place.

As for me personally, I believe that the place of safety is wherever you find yourself if and when the events go down. Revelation is not a hardset timeline of endtime events ticking down to the return of Christ, it is an outline of possible events which could occur if humanity doesn't exercise good stewardship for planet earth, and/or degenerates to the pathologies of Sodom and Gomorah. Revelation follows a similar blueprint of and purpose for what was outlined to Pharaoh in the book of Exodus. It is a cautionary message, crafted to elicit certain behavior. If God does need to bring about worst case scenario, He certainly does not need to take people to a special area. He can protect them right where they are. In fact, that makes better sense because they can witness and testify to their neighbors, relatives, friends and co-workers, remaining as an integral part of God's plan, as opposed to disappearing and being sequestered in some alleged place of safety.

The "place of safety" concept was one of the main attractions to HWA's version of a gospel message: "The tribulation is coming, but you can be spared." It's the way he made his tithe slaves, and is ridiculous including Petra, the so-called church eras, and all of the other extra-biblical speculation HWA taught as gospel. Such doctrine also produces bad fruit. Elitism is not one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit!

BB

Corky said...

During "the great tribulation" in Judea (66-70 AD) the Jewish Christians fled the city of Jerusalem and Judea - as per Mark 13, Matt. 24 and Luke 21.

It all happened 1,938 years ago. John tells the whole story of the destruction in Revelation along with the two Jewish witnesses who were the negotiators between the Zealots and the Romans.

The Zealots killed the two negotiators and left their dead bodies to rot in the street as an example to the other Jews in Jerusalem who didn't want to fight the Romans.

The Zealots actually killed more of the Jews than did the Romans in the siege on Jerusalem. Anyone not on their side were summarily dispatched, which included the temple priests and the high priest.

Everything written in the Bible has been "fulfilled", it's in the past by 1,938 years.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Jesus is not coming back, that's all done, over, finished. All that remains is whether you believe it or not.

According to full preterism, it all happened, albeit most of it in a spiritual way and not in a physical way, the resurrection, judgment - all of it.

Well, either Peter was right when he said "the end of all things is at hand" 1,930+ years ago or he was mistaken and therefore a false prophet - your choice.

Either it happened or it didn't but saying it was "soon" over one hundred times in the NT forces one to either believe it was soon and at hand during that time or that they were all wrong, including Jesus.

Anonymous said...

I was going to bring up the Left Behind books/gaming series too, but BB beat me to it. (I got my inside info on the Left Behind worldview from Penn and Teller, if anyone cares to know.)

I think WCG was the only church of its time that actively promoted both the idea, and its location, though.

(Although church officials always were, and still are, careful to point out that no official church literature stated that Petra was "the place" in the Place of Safety doctrine, regardless of Waterhouse's interminably incoherent screeds on same.)

I still look back on the notion that a hundred and forty-four of us predominantly white, anti-Semitic and pro-Zionist "true believers", were going to descend upon a six-thousand-year-old ruined city, in the war-torn Middle East, without so much as a hitch, as laughable.

Then I remember that the Place of Safety was the carrot at the end of the big stick the ministers of misery used to beat us over the head with, and I don't find it so funny, anymore.

Anonymous said...

A hundred and forty four THOUSAND of us. Oops.

Byker Bob said...

Corky,

An Armstrongist will probably suggest to you that fulfillments of prophecy are dual. And, they have it all worked out in such a way that the antitype, or whatever you choose to call the future fulfillment, involves labeling Anglo Saxon gentiles as Israelites and punishes them for forgetting things they never knew, like all of the Old Covenant legalism that has been fulfilled and is no longer necessary. Oh, and your favorite, switching the racial makeup of the Germans.

BB

Tired Skeptic said...

Gavin's original question was whether or not Herbert Armstrong had ideas about the Place of Safety before World War II:

While it's an unlikely connection, it would be still interesting to know if there was any documented use of the expression by HWA prior to World War II.

I cannot answer that definitively. There are two things: 1) There was that National Geographic with the article on Petra and 2) Herbert Armstrong was spinning the fantasy about Britain and the United States back in the Thirties as he was allowed in The Bible Advocate. It is possible that he was looking to Petra as a Place of Safety before World War II, but others here will have to find the documentation.

Having said all that, it is fairly clear that by 1952 with the issuance of the first edition of 1975 in Prophecy and the to be Dr. Hoeh planting the idea that Herbert Armstrong was an apostle, the idea of Petra and the Place of Safety was fairly full blown.

Many people do not know that the Fifties were crucial to the Radio Church of God. It was painfully small and those at HQ at least often wondered if the Church would survive into the Sixties. It was pretty much touch and go, particularly for the finances and RCG operations.

The whole idea of Petra as a Place of Safety is a terrible idea, if quaint these days. The definition place of safety: an inhumane prison. Himmler's favored term for his concentration camps. is on spot and a frightening possibility for those who may be subjected to such a dysfunctional environment. We've already seen what happens in the outside world with people like Jim Jones. It's clear that anyone trapped in such an environment would be at minimum miserable with those in positions of power in the cult group living a much higher standard of living.

If such a thing were to occur, the leadership would, over time, most likely, do what other cults have done: As the rest of the world goes on, people begin asking questions and some would wonder what was really going on outside, particularly after four years. The leaders would have to pull out the stops to control the group and the truth that there was no Great Tribulation and that it was all a hoax. Many people would die miserably. How can we know this? This was the record of the Worldwide Church of God with less control out where people could see what was going on: The news was still managed, but during the Seventies, the WCG was a revolving door with membership numbers slowly growing, but with a huge turnover. People didn't stick with it and there may have been as many as 250,000 people or more who were once members of the church.

Others have also already noted that the whole idea of the Place of Safety in Petra is a terrible one and was derived from a chain beginning with British Israelism, moving through the filters of the Great Tribulation and some obscure Scriptures concerning being saved from troubles and difficulties.

Let's be clear: The Christian is promised trials. Moreover, Scripture tells that God is pleased with martyrs as those who are so dedicated to God that they value their relationship with God than their own lives.

This perspective is the antithesis of the religion of prosperity replete with the fantasy of each man having his own vine and fig tree, becoming godletts with petty powers to absolutely controlling hapless victims for their own vicious pleasure, not unlike a cat playing with a helpless mouse. Gerald Waterhouse painted mental fantasies appealing to the vengeful wanting revenge for the difficulties they face these days in their pathetic lives. The whole idea that a godlett spirit being hoisting a car into the air for an hour and telling the driver what's your hurry is reprehensible. Many would want to commit suicide but would be prevented from doing so in their misery.

It is of great concern to perceive the attitudes of "holier than thou" Armstrongists exhibiting the cruel mercies of the wicked, victimizing the helpless whenever they have a chance, full of vengeful hateful wrath for those who oppose their silly ideas with the equivalent childish, "You'll see! Some day you'll be sorry!". Unfortunately, they are the bullies and there is good cause to avoid being in a position of ever coming under their ponderous domination.

Such people do not have the Love of God and often object when someone brings up the kindness of God and that His Mercy never fails. They can't abide that idea that Jesus came to be Savior to all and that God would that none perish but that everyone be saved to have eternal life. They just can't imagine God being so bountiful as to give something to their neighbors. They take the view that it is just God and them and no one else should be permitted into the relationship because it is a seriously exclusive one. News Note: God is cheating on you because He has all sorts of people you don't know about who have not bowed their knee to Baal or Herbert Armstrong. In their view, these terrible people absolutely go through the Great Tribulation and come out being sorry about being such horrible people that they just couldn't see how righteous the Pharisees of Armstrongism really are because they are blinded by the lack of light emanating from the Black Hole of the self-righteous.

We've seen what the various WCG and spit-off leaders can and will do already. I'd like to avoid them and stay out of the Place of Safety in Petra.

Martyrdom would be preferable, even if it is not the first choice.

Then again, Armstrongists are in for a great shocking surprise when everything is said and done. Count on it.

ripley said...

Purple, one suspects there will be 144 still left by the time all is said and done...

Anonymous said...

Some excellent points made!

All those years, I was living in "Fantasy Island" and didn't even recognize it for what it was.

"Da plane, da plane!"

Deane said...

Hi Gavin,

What's your email address? I tried emailing you, but I think I must have got an old address. I'm also doing a theology degree at Otago, and I wanted to tell you something amusing, but not here. Send it to deane[at]slingshot[dot]co[dot]nz

Cheers,
Deane

Neotherm said...

To Tired Skeptic:

Good one!

-- Neo

Mel said...

Ahhh.... the Left Behind series! Gotta love it!

Although not exactly a LaHaye thing, I remember an album cover depicting cars and planes crashing all over the place since the rapture had occurred and there were no longer any drivers in the vehicles that righteous people had been operating.

Thanks, purplehymnal for mentioning Penn and Teller's take on it.

Anyhoo, it's interesting how HWA spawned a bunch of kooks that teach a concept of "the Place of Safety" so similar to the fear-inducing and manipulative one that he taught, while members of these destructive cults don't seem to get that the way the cultmeisters are building monuments to themselves is incongruous with a belief that the end of this world is imminent.

jdschroeder said...

For what it's worth, I remember reading, in a Jewish publication many years ago, that Israelis were either happy that travel to Jordan had opened up to them, or they hoped it would soon open up, because in ages past Petra had been a place of safety for their ancestors. It would take a loathsome degenerate like Himmler to make a sick euphemism on the phrase.

Perhaps the concept makes more sense to people whose lives have always mimicked the precarious balance of a fiddler on the roof. The pogrom that threatened imaginary Anatevka forced its Jews to find places where they could continue to live in safety. Some would come to America. My Romanian forebears went to Italy when pogroms threatened Jewish populations in Romania, and from there some of them came here.

America has been a place of safety and unprecedented equality for Jews since its founding -- something we tend to forget when we've lived our whole lives in this blessed place -- of safety.

Byker Bob said...

My parents weren't scammed until the mid '50s, so I really can't verify whether HWA was teaching about Petra prior to WW II. The earliest reference I saw to Petra was in a black and white PT or Good News. There was an article entitled "We Saw Petra!" This was from the late '50s, which would indicate that the doctrine of the place of safety had been in force for probably a couple of years previous to the article.

I have to say that at that point in time, HWA had seemingly just burst on to the scene. It was a
"now" thing, and we had no sense of his past history, or the already failed prophecies he had to his credit. I'm sure my parents and other members didn't do any kind of background check on the man, they just paid attention to his horrifying message. The first things we knew of his history were what he wrote himself in his autobiography, originally published serially in the Plain Truth. The Feast of Tabernacles was a single location event in those days, and sometimes my parents would learn things from the old timers, but for the most part all the available information was flattering to HWA, certainly nothing critical.

We're fortunate today to have all the resources available through the internet. All of the interviews with COG-7 officials who were around during HWA's tenure, information about such early influences to HWA as GG Rupert, member and co-worker letters dating from the 1930s, and many of the first editions of the various booklets are all available on the internet in various places.
For a thinking person, there literally is no reason to be scammed by an ACOG, if each individual does a little due dilligence. In that way, these are certainly the good old days.

BB

Tom Mahon said...

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>Gavin's original question was whether or not Herbert Armstrong had ideas about the Place of Safety before World War II:<<<

TS>>>I cannot answer that definitively.<<<

What a surprise! It could only be that you have finally disposed of Joe junior's Evangelical Alliance scrapbook of religious platitudes. But I doubt it.

TS>>>There are two things: 1) There was that National Geographic with the article on Petra and 2) Herbert Armstrong was spinning the fantasy about Britain and the United States back in the Thirties as he was allowed in The Bible Advocate.<<<

I thought as much!! You have not disposed of Joe's scrapbook; you are just regurgitating his absurd opinions.

TS>>>It is possible that he was looking to Petra as a Place of Safety before World War II,,,<<<

Your "It is possibly" is pure speculation. But then Joe's scrapbook is replete with absurd speculations, conjectures and suppositions dredged up from a satanic mind, which hates everything about HWA, except the money and property left behind.

Tom Mahon said...

Charlie said...

>>>I really don't miss those apocalyptic sermons and articles at all.<<<

Why should you, when you now have Star Trek and Harry Potter to comfort you?

>>>Rest assured that my children are being spared the nightmares that accompany been fed that garbage while growing up in armstrongism.<<<

What about the nightmares that they now enjoyed after the Xmas celebrations? What about the happy dreams they now blissfully narrate to you, after playing all those wonderful video games on how to annihilate all your enemies? What about the happy conditioning they are now receiving from watching those educational, inspiring movies on sex, mystery, murder and mayhem?

With these blessed outcomes, that are now enjoyed by you and your family, I think you have every reason to rest assured.

I shall now go and see if any bodies are buried in my back garden.

Tom Mahon said...

jdschroeder said...

>>>For what it's worth, I remember reading, in America has been a place of safety and unprecedented equality for Jews since its founding -- something we tend to forget when we've lived our whole lives in this blessed place -- of safety.<<<

You could have added, that America has only been a place of peace and safety because its people have inherited the birthright blessings God gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Sadly, those blessings are now being taken away, as Mr. Armstrong has prophesied.

Gavin said...

Tom, your contributions are welcome, but can you ratchet down the invective a bit.

Stingerski said...

OUR Co-Workers' BULLETIN
===================================================================
VOL. V. Number 3 March 24, 1944
-------------------------------------------------------------------

AFTER our people fall into captivity at the hands of the
revived and 7th head of "the BEAST," then united with the "False
Prophet," their headquarters removed to PALESTINE, which they shall have captured, the MARK OF THE BEAST shall be enforced. Pure
Gospel preaching shall be PROHIBITED! Then comes the FAMINE of HEARING the Word of God. Then the SAINTS who refuse to take the
Mark of the Beast or worship his image shall be PUT TO DEATH. PART
of the saints--those who WATCH, and PRAY without ceasing, and are
accounted worthy to escape all those things--shall be taken to a
place of safety. The others shall be MARTYRED. Immediately
following this TRIBULATION, God shall step in and send the terrible
heavenly signs. Then follows the DAY OF THE LORD--the time of
DIVINE WRATH--the PLAGUES, upon Babylon and the seat of the Beast.

Again, as I write this, there has been an alarming slackening of tithes and offerings at our Eugene office. The work needs another quick stimulus of money. We need two or three thousand dollars extra at once. I thank you Co-Workers for the way you responded last time and I know you will not fail God's work this time. Some sent extra offerings before. GOD BLESS THEM. LET US DO OUR UTMOST. Let those who can send as large an offering as possible. God bless you.

BC said...

At least Herbert Armstrong is safely nestled in his Place of Safety since 1986.

Tired Skeptic said...

VOL. V. Number 3 March 24, 1944

And if he said it during World War II, it is obvious that Herbert Armstrong had his manic ideas about the Place of Safety in mind mind long before -- very likely while he was still writing for The Bible Advocate, even prior to the time he rebelled against the Church of God, Seventh Day in his headstrong hot-headed divisiveness.

As for Joseph Tkach [either one], I am on record for a very long time as being very much against them and all that they represent. I am opposed to them both on every count and suspect that there is every possibility that they were / are both psychopaths. Certainly, Junior's behavior and the way he makes self-contradictory statements within the same sentence in his editorials and articles is a watershed of his having deficient connections across the corpus collossum. I find the WCG repulsive.

Gavin said...

Tom, your contributions are welcome, but can you ratchet down the invective a bit.


Gavin is just being polite. Tom's wrong-headed thinking, outright lies with the libel and slander make him the very picture of the cult member who would be a terror to those in a place of safety as the Nazi storm trooper enforcing every silly rule, just as in The Wave after school special. He's made it bountifully clear that he is an insufferable tyrant who has not one shred of humanity. He's not the sort of person God would want to spend eternity with and certainly Jesus made it clear in his discourse with the Pharisees the kind of person God rejects.

God may be kind, loving and merciful, but He's not going to put up with crap forever.

Anonymous said...

Tired Skeptic said: "Let's be clear: The Christian is promised trials. Moreover, Scripture tells that God is pleased with martyrs as those who are so dedicated to God that they value their relationship with God than their own lives."

The WCG claimed to be God's one true church, but I am unaware of any martyrs during the history of the WCG or its splinters - other than the unfortunate people who were in attendance in Milwaukee during Terry Ratzmann's shooting spree. Am I mistaken?

Richard

Anonymous said...

Stingerski,

Thank you for posting 1944 Church Bulletin. It is typical Herbert Armstrong that I remember as a young man in the 1960s and 1970s - paint an ugly picture of the great tribulation, and then hound the dumb sheep for money.

Richard

Steve said...

I bet it's "fun" to be a kid in Tom's household. I remember an individual in WCG years ago who was just like Tom. His children were not allowed to watch cartoons because they were too violent. His kids were just kids until he came around. Then they were quiet and reserved. He wouldn't let them eat much food at meals because he had an obsession with everyone in his family being fit for the place of safety. I remember an incident where he and his wife were putting their kids to bed, and they found food under the pillow of their little daughter. It didn't phase him in the least that maybe he was doing something wrong. They gave their daughter the riot act for her "rebellion". Oh, the "Toms" of the world!

Anonymous said...

Tom writes without thinking: "What about the nightmares that they now enjoyed after the Xmas celebrations? What about the happy dreams they now blissfully narrate to you, after playing all those wonderful video games on how to annihilate all your enemies? What about the happy conditioning they are now receiving from watching those educational, inspiring movies on sex, mystery, murder and mayhem?"

Tom - There aren't any nightmares associated with Christmas!?!?! Why would there be? My children haven't reported any nightmares from playing video games, however, like any child there will be things to go bump in the night that require a parent to come in and comfort them. Such as a scary dream or a thunderclap.

Tom - Having a minister stand up in front of a congregation for a couple of hours, on a weekly basis telling you what horrors await, in detail, getting YES lessons and other publications as a child to reinforce those horrors does terrible things to a young mind. NOTHING good can or does come from it. That is merely scratching the surface. You *should* be smart enough to realize that. For the sake of those around you I hope you wake up...and soon, however part of me hopes you get a taste of your own medicine.


Tom - You *still* owe everyone here an explanation on why women who fear God will die of cancer.

Anonymous said...

I'm curious too!

Tom Moron - why do women who fear God will die of cancer?

Richard

Anonymous said...

Ripley said:
"Purple, one suspects there will be 144 still left by the time all is said and done..."


Yes, and Ronald Weinland's group is the one, in my mind, that is the likeliest candidate for a Jonestown-type event in the Middle East, either this April, or three-and-a-half years from April, since Rotten Ronnie uses the book of Revelations as his standard operations manual.

You think the Left Behind stuff is creepy? Check out Church of God-Preparing for the Kingdom of God's lit. It's frightening to think anyone believes it, even more frightening to realize that at least a couple hundred people still do.

Leaders of three of the major splinters (Living, Global, and United) were saying in the early 90s that Weinland was certifiably insane. This was at a time in CoG history when these three groups (and their respective apostles) were literally at each other's throats.

Some people say clever Gerry or the Packatollah will be bundling their people onto planes for the Middle East, but they're both clearly in it for the money, not out of any real apostolic belief, and will keep milking their respective cash cows for as long as they're able to.

How does that Heinlein saying go? Anyone who actually believes in the religion they're preaching, is automatically insane. I think he was quoting someone else, and that's a horrible paraphrase on my part, but it still holds true. Especially for Weinland.

Anonymous said...

Tired Skeptic:

Thanks for your reference to the movie, "The Wave". I saw the movie in the 1980's, but couldn't remember the name of it. Ironically, the viewing of that movie was the same time I joined the WCG. Unfortunate that I was too stupid to draw any parallels to the WCG pyramid structure until the mid 90's! How subtle he power of being brainwashed!

Tom Mahon said...

Gavin said...

>>>Tom, your contributions are welcome,<<<

Are they really? But I will take your for it.

>>>..but can you ratchet down the invective a bit.<<<

The phrase "a bit," to me means not totally. But I don't think that I have used any invectives against anyone. I have used robust language to ridicule the illogical and irrational opinions of most bloggers here, and to defend HWA against a tirade of slander and abuse from Dennis, Corky, Douglas, Charlie, Steve, Bill and a hosts of anonymous bloggers.

Actually, my wife, children and I have been subjected to a tirade of abuse for defending HWA against unproven allegations of incest and financial impropriety, and the wholesome teachings of the bible, against absurd and irrational opinions.

As a consequence, I have been called:
1.A jackass
2.A moron
3.A liar
4.A bigot
5.Self righteous
6.A mud slinger, etc., etc.

And this is Steve's most recent contribution, "I bet it's "fun" to be a kid in Tom's household. I remember an individual in WCG years ago who was just like Tom." If you so wish, you may read of the type of person with whom I am compared.

And this polite rant is from TS, "Tom's wrong-headed thinking, outright lies with the libel and slander make him the very picture of the cult member who would be a terror to those in a place of safety as the Nazi storm trooper enforcing every silly rule, just as in The Wave after school special. He's made it bountifully clear that he is an insufferable tyrant who has not one shred of humanity."

In addition, my children have been described as dysfunctional, and sympathy and compassion have been offered to my wife for having to live with me.

As you are the owner, moderator and ultimate arbiter of this blog, you no doubt have the authority to decide what is acceptable to appear here. But however difficult it might be for you to be totally impartial and objective, in the interest of justice, you ought to try to be fair. To accuse me of invectives, while ignoring the abuse that has been hurled at me and my family, smacks of double standards, especially if you objectively compare my posts with those of my detractors.

Still, truth will always triumph over error and prejudice.

Tom Mahon said...

Charlie said:

>>>Tom - You *still* owe everyone here an explanation on why women who fear God will die of cancer.<<<

I never promised or said anything of the kind. This was my question: "Sadly, cancer has claimed the lives of many WCG women, and it doesn't appear that anyone has asked, why?"

Your reply was so silly, that I just ignored it. But God has promised his people that they would be protected from the diseases of Egypt, which is a type of this world. So why are Christian women dying of cancer, especially breast, bowel and cervical cancers?

If you don't know, just say so.

Anonymous said...

Tom Moron says, "Sadly, cancer has claimed the lives of many WCG women, and it doesn't appear that anyone has asked, why?

Your reply was so silly, that I just ignored it. But God has promised his people that they would be protected from the diseases of Egypt, which is a type of this world. So why are Christian women dying of cancer, especially breast, bowel and cervical cancers?"

Tom's Answer - I guess according to Tom's logic, the answer is because WCG women are not God's people protected from the diseases of Egypt as a type.

Brilliant Tom - you just disproved your God and idol Herbert Armstrong again!

Richard

Anonymous said...

Tom protesteth: "As a consequence, I have been called:
1.A jackass
2.A moron
3.A liar
4.A bigot
5.Self righteous
6.A mud slinger, etc., etc."

...If the shoe fits...

Tom,

You constantly pronounce judgements on others here, place yourself in a position that you believe to be superior to all others, claim that armstrong was a man of God, make ridiculous statements about what we may be 'trembling to realize' or be 'surprised to learn', and generally behave like a horse's ass. (Add that one to the list) If you want to worship herbert and completely disregard / reject all of the anecdotal, first person accounts, references to actual documentation, and other items that say he was something other than a man of God, that is your business...but the way you go about expressing yourself, judging people, and making not so thinly veiled threats about what happens to people that don't agree with you, you piss people off. Many of us know people that had to grow up with an unbalanced zealot and know what goes on, so yes, we feel for your wife and children. If you don't like that, tough. Think about why people not only here but at work find you abrasive, judgemental, and self-righteous.


You still owe us an explanation as to why women who fear God die of cancer. I have a mother who is in armstrongism, I would definitely like to warn her that she could become so stricken simply because she 'fears' your 'loving' God.

One final point - If you don't like what you read here, you are simply seeing some of the many fruits of armstrongism...Isn't it just effing dandy how he managed to affect people?

Byker Bob said...

Tom,

Have you ever considered posting on blogs and forums that were created to laud the purity and sanctity of Herbert W. Armstrong?
You might be better received there.
It is really difficult, once one realizes the truth about our former church, to carry on civil exchanges with people who still believe the scam, and would like to correct us, or bring us back into it.

Ask yourself this: What if what we are saying is really true? God forgives all manner of sins, and perhaps he's forgiven HWA for the incest and debauched lifestyle. But, those sins ARE well documented, and HWA's character in no way meets the qualifications for a bishop that Paul outlined to Timothy. His severe anger issues alone give abundant testimony tht he was not a fit spiritual leader.

Also, you can know that HWA's prophecies have all failed. He did assign dates and timelines, and those have proven to be false.
Really, what more do you need? I think you'd be better off, and much happier finding a true religion, a scandal-free one which you can trust.

Just trying to help you here, Bud. I can't believe you actually enjoy the verbal maulings which you bring on yourself.

BB

Anonymous said...

Tom backtracketh: "I never promised or said anything of the kind. This was my question: "Sadly, cancer has claimed the lives of many WCG women, and it doesn't appear that anyone has asked, why?"

"Your reply was so silly, that I just ignored it. But God has promised his people that they would be protected from the diseases of Egypt, which is a type of this world. So why are Christian women dying of cancer, especially breast, bowel and cervical cancers?"

"If you don't know, just say so."

Tom - I do know why people die of these things. It is obvious to most people that can see lightning and hear thunder.

Write this on your forehead so you don't forget it:

Cancers (To choose just one of the afflictions above) can be caused by a multitide of factors: Environmental, dietary, and hereditary just to name a few.

Unfortunately for you Tom, your zeal for armstrongism is not a protection against cancer and I sincerely hope neither you nor anyone you know ever suffers from it.

Anonymous said...

The statements made about Weinland may just be right. We had 3 deaths recently here where I live; they were all followers of Weinland. They were all long time members and were very well known. The first death there were many people there, people from many splinters, all got together to mourn the death of a loved one. Weinland officiated the service. There was even a gathering afterwards for many friends and family. Weinland attended that also.
The next death, there was no funeral. It was the wishes of the deceased that there be no funeral.
The next death was the same. No funeral, it was also the wishes of the deceased.
Is Weinland telling his people to stay away from any who are not with us?

Corky said...

Tom Mahon, do yourself a favor and go to Wikipedia and look up "Assyria" and "People of Assyria".

Yes! They still exist and they are not Germans PLUS, now get this, Assyrians did not begin to migrate into Europe until after World War 1. And yes, they are still a Semitic people and have not miraculously changed into Aryans.

Get over the false teachings of HWA and the oddball doctrine of British/Israelism. Just knowing who the Assyrians are today disproves that theory altogether.

Anonymous said...

Byker Bob,

Great post.

By the way, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree, so to speak. Certainly, America's playboy preacher, Garner Ted Armstrong, son of the so called apostle of God was no saint either.

On October 1, 1974 at 10:00AM at Mount Pocono Feast of Tabernacles, I listened and recorded detailed notes of Herbert W. Armstrong's sermon that morning. During his sermon, he told us to read Zechariah 3 because "it was a prophecy of Garner Ted Armstrong".

On November 3, 1974, Gerald Waterhouse made the same statement at our local Washington D.C. church(I guess because HWA made the original statement), that Zech. 3:1-10 are prophecies of Garner Ted Armstrong.

My question is (since I wasn't around), did HWA ever renounce or retract his 1974 statement about Garner Ted Armstrong in prophecy after he excommunicated his son, or is this just another HWA failed prophecy that can be added to the list of over 200 failed prophecies that I have seen published on the internet?

Richard

Anonymous said...

Zech 3

"1And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary. 2And Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan; yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the angel. 4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take the filthy garments from off him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with rich apparel. 5And I said, Let them set a clean mitre upon his head. So they set a clean mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments; and the angel of Jehovah was standing by. 6And the angel of Jehovah protested unto Joshua, saying, 7Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou also shalt judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee a place of access among these that stand by. 8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee; for they are men that are a sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch. 9For, behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; upon one stone are seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith Jehovah of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10In that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, shall ye invite every man his neighbor under the vine and under the fig-tree."

Blimey, I don't read GTA in there anywhere! HWA sure knew how to find his 13th Apostleship in the bible and his evangelist son right in with there with the prophet Zechariah. Maybe Tom has the spiritual brass balls to explain Herbert's "prophecy of Garner Ted Armstrong" in Zechariah 3.

Lussenheide said...

PETRA AND TOILET PAPER LOGISTICAL PROBLEMS.

If we assume that there will be 144,000 people in Petra, and that each person there will consume ONE roll of toilet paper per week, for 3 1/2 years, what kind of logistical problems would this create??

Well, the quick math shows that during the Tribulation, that 26,208,000 rolls of toilet paper will be consumed!

If placed in cases of 96 rolls, this would represent 273,000 cases of toilet paper.

If we assume that the average case of toilet paper is 36 inches, by 36 inches, by 36 inches, this represents 7,371,000 SQUARE FEET of space that this toilet paper will have to occupy.

A single train boxcar holds aproximately 4000 square feet. The amount of boxcars required to haul just the toilet paper for 3 1/2 years is 1843 boxcars.

A typical train will consist of 60 boxcars and require 2 to 3 diesel engines.

It will thus take about 31 full size trains to deliver our toilet paper, roughly speaking, one full size train every SIX WEEKS!

And folks, that is just toilet paper and nuttin else!

Buy your toilet paper now for the journey and beat the mad rush!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Byker Bob said...

I don't respect the mental stability of any of our contemporaries who find himself or herself specifically mentioned in the pages of the Bible. Since the Bible contains anecdotes and lessons regarding general behavioral patterns, I think that common experience alone makes us see ourselves in that general sense, but not specifically.

It should set off red flags when anyone tells us that Biblical prophecies refer specifically to themselves. In the first place, it would be self-obvious, and inescapable, if God were working through such a person. That individual wouldn't need to reveal this "fact" for all of our benefits, and they certainly would not begin referring to themselves as a prophet or apostle. That's self-aggrandizement, and God has demonstrated that a human needs to back self away totally for Him to do a job through that person. It becomes straight channeling of God, and ego and self-will can have no part in the process. Moses certainly learned this!

The person whom God does mighty work through must be an exceptional person. Most of us would let it go to our heads! Even someone who appears self-effacing must be careful, as one must be careful about one's deferring. The person through whom God is working will defer to God or Jesus, and will be glorifying them. Not Herbert W. Armstrong to the exclusion of God and Jesus.

BB

Anonymous said...

To the anonymous poster who gave details of three deaths in the CoG-PKG sect, could you provide links to more info? Or if you wish, you can email me, I will leave my address here, if you agree.

I have been trying to follow the Weinland saga as best I could, ever since I first heard of it, this past Christmas.

The more information I can gather, the better-equipped I feel to spread the word that Rotten Ronnie will not, in my estimation, do a thought-reform "I never named dates!" Armstrongist maneuver, come April.

The news of these latest suicides, and the fact the deceased specified no funerals, disturbs me to no end. Any information you can provide will be most welcome.

Anonymous said...

Bill,

Well don't you have nerve to bring math reality and toilet paper into Armstrong WCG fantasy, la la land. The answer to your math is found in Ken Westby's June 7, 1969 sermon excepted below from my unpublished essay:

· “There is only a certain time that Petra will be a place of safety…If we ever got hot in Petra, we could just pray for a cloud to cool us off” (June 7, 1969 K. W. sermon on Petra).

If we ever needed toilet paper in Petra, we could just pray and poof (or, should I say poop) toilet paper would appear like manna from heaven. It's fun playing WCG "Place of Safety while the rest of the world burns" fantasy la la land games.

Now, Bill, if you are going to play, please play by the WCG la la land fantasy rules. Thanks!

Richard

Bamboo_bends said...

The apocalyptic mindset is a mindset of cowardice. The central premise of it all is to "escape" and save one life from a wrathful God.

Jesus said those that seek to save their life will lose it, and those that lose life by living it will find it. The same principle is in the parable of Stewards. So where does that put the petra-mongering elite of Armstrongism?

You can either view God as reaping where he did not sow, or you can get on with life and be part of your communities and help people.

Plus, if someone's gonna invade this country, wouldn't your efforts be better spent fighting the bastards, instead of making plans to hide out with flea bitten camels and scorpions in the Jordon desert?

The whole apocalyptic mind virus is a disease of cowardice. God's gonna kill those who ain't churched. I got news for you all, none of us are getting out of this life alive - the rest is just a matter of how well live, and how honorable we are while living.

Anonymous said...

purplehymnal, I think you misunderstood, or I didn't make it clear. These were not suicides, just deaths of people who had been in the church for years.
I agree, Weinland is dangerous, I know him, he was in the church I attended. He came to my area I think, as a ministerial trainee and worked under Bob League. This was about 15-18 years ago. He wasn't here very long.

Anonymous said...

Yes, sorry anonymous, I shouldn't have put suicides (I wasn't even thinking of them like that, except initially), but I do agree that Weinland is very very dangerous, and the circumstances surrounding the funerals seems very very iffy.

Can you provide any more information, i.e., links to the obits, specifying the deceased expressed wishes for no funerals?

Also, to the blogverse at large, I can remember reading denunciations made of Weinland, by the leaders of Global, Living and United, but I can't for the life of me find the article now. Can anyone help?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I can't give you anymore information than that. I was friends with the deceased, and wanted to attend the funerals, but was told that they did not want any funeral. Some of their close family were unhappy with that decision.
I am from the Cincinnati area, and wrote in earlier postings about Weinland. Since I knew him, when he went off on his own, naturally I wanted to hear what he was saying. So I sent for some of his tapes. To me he did a lot of ranting and raving, and I likened him to chicken little, running around the barnyard flapping his wings shouting "the sky is falling, the sky is falling, repent, repent." I still have friends with him. I hope they wake up soon.

Anonymous said...

I'm very sorry for the loss of your friends, anonymous.

I hope your friends still in Weinland's group wake up soon as well. Weinland's cutoff date for the tribulation to start is the end of April.

I think your friends are going to need your friendship and support more than ever, in the coming months, especially if Weinland's group is being so very insular.

I'm trying to spread the word as best I can, and will keep doing so. (I've had the willies about Weinland ever since I heard that he'd set April as "the date".)

We will see what happens, but in the meantime, I'll be the one kicking and screaming, and I hope to h3ll I'll end up being a chicken little myself!!

Stingerski said...

Righteous Tom saith :

Actually, my wife, children and I have been subjected to a tirade of abuse for defending HWA against unproven allegations of incest and financial impropriety . . .

Gee, I can't imagine why. ;-)

Leaving the incest aside, the "unproven allegations" of Armstrong's financial impropriety are so well known now and so well documented that one has to be willingly ignorant to ignore or deny them. The fact alone that the greedy little bastard made $200k per year in 1978 (not to mention having every perk known to mankind) is proof enuf of his financial theft of tithe monies.

St. Tom, I still say you are yanking our chains here, and having one helluva good laugh in the process, just like your idol Armstrong did. Or else you are one, very sick puppy. Maybe you should joins ranks with Ron Weinland and then wait for the men in the white coats to come and pick you up.

Steve said...

Lussenheide said...
PETRA AND TOILET PAPER LOGISTICAL PROBLEMS.

MY COMMENT: Hmmmm! I wonder how the Israelites ever made it for forty years in the desert? How did they wipe their asses? "Women over the sand dune to the right. Men to the left!"

Bob said...

TOM, DO NOT READ THIS!

While we are on the subject of toilet paper and its companion, here is my favourite quote from the master about what he thought of us all. In essence, it tells us all we are worthless pieces of shit, on our way to the lake of fire, unless we give him more money. The source is a Co-Worker Letter dated March 2,1967:

"Many professing to be Church MEMBERS say, when a Co-Worker letter arrives, in a grumbling, complaining disgust: "Oh, that's another of Mr. Armstrong's REQUESTS for MONEY," and many don't even read the letter!

Are YOU one of those? If so, LET ME BURN YOUR EARS before the Almighty GOD burns YOU in the Lake of FIRE! If that has been YOUR attitude -- if YOU are only on the GETTING side, and SHUN helping, and giving to the cause of GOD, then I say to you ON AUTHORITY OF JESUS CHRIST, if you don't REPENT and QUICKLY, and change that hostile, despicable, detestable attitude, you DO NOT BELONG in GOD'S CHURCH! You are some of the ROTTEN, PUTRID, spiritual WASTE that has been PLUGGED UP INSIDE OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST'S WIFE, just as physical waste is plugged up in my
dear wife's body! And the living Jesus is just as able to EXPEL YOU from the spiritual Body of HIS WIFE as He is to expel this physical waste from my wife's body!

And if THAT doesn't make your ears tingle, and AWAKEN you, then Jesus Christ says to YOU through me, YOU are in danger of the Lake of FIRE!

God's people must be on the GIVING side -- not the GETTING!

Unless you are, with a whole heart, you ought to GET OUT of God's Church, for you are a hindrance and a liability!"

Bob E.

Stingerski said...

Steve said :

"Women over the sand dune to the right. Men to the left!"

One thing is for sure: the most unsanitary way to dispose of one's poop is to bury it. So, the Bible is wrong again. (Shucks, what else is new under the sun?)

A well written article, as researched by some unbiased Jews, and presented by none other than Dennis Diehl, can give you the "poopie" details. Check his article list at :

Articles by Dennis.

Tom Mahon said...

Stingerski said...

>>>Leaving the incest aside, the "unproven allegations" of Armstrong's financial impropriety are so well known now and so well documented that one has to be willingly ignorant to ignore or deny them. The fact alone that the greedy little bastard made $200k per year in 1978 (not to mention having every perk known to mankind) is proof enuf of his financial theft of tithe monies.<<<

You may argue that HWA was overpaid. Whether he was or not I don't know, and at this point in time, I don't really care. But there is a great deal of difference between being overpaid and financial impropriety. Financial impropriety is a criminal offence, being overpaid is a matter of judgement; but it could be greed, especially if the person involved can fix his own salary.

I suspect that you would plump for greed, because it supports your view that HWA was a charlatan. But I do not intend to impute any motives to anyone, unless what they say clearly undermines their behaviour.

Tom Mahon said...

Charlie said:

>>>I do know why people die of these things.

OK, I am all ears!

>>>Cancers (To choose just one of the afflictions above) can be caused by a multitide of factors: Environmental, dietary, and hereditary just to name a few.<<<

If you had written the above in an exam, what grade do you think you would get? Methinks you would have got an A+, with the following comments, excellent research, a clear grasp of the issues, a carefully marshalled argument, critical analysis of the facts; a well written and presented essay! Keep up the good work, you will go a long way!!

Bamboo_bends said...

Stingerski said...

Righteous Tom saith :

Actually, my wife, children and I have been subjected to a tirade of abuse for defending HWA against unproven allegations of incest and financial impropriety . . .

Gee, I can't imagine why. ;-)


I first heard about HWA's incest in 1991, long before anyone knew the WCG would blow into bits. It came from the Church of God Seventh Day. HWA confided his problems in a pastor in that Church... and then vilified that organization so none of us would go there to check up on him.

I hoped it wasn't true for a year or two.

Later I took comfort that HWA was by then dead.

I can't imagine what mental contortions one must put themselves through now after so much evidence has been presented on the Internet.

16 years later, I can't even argue the issue anymore - its no longer even important to me. Next to nothing he taught was true.

Stingerski said...

Tom saith :

You may argue that HWA was overpaid. Whether he was or not I don't know, and at this point in time, I don't really care.

You may not "know" (or care to know) but I do know. And lest we forget, near the end his Majesty's salary was close to $600k.

You may also not "know" that $30,000 blown on a week end hotel suite is financial misappropriation, but I do know. (You can see the expense accounts on the Painful Truth web site.) And this was during a time when the average WCG member didn't even make half that figure in a year's salary.

You may also not "know" that Armstrong was a bold faced liar when he told us he owned next to nothing. The fact is, he owned it ALL as a corporate sole, right down to the gold plated tableware.

Yes, St. Tom. When it comes to your idol, for you it's "Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil." But the rest of us know.

And whether you care or not is relevant here. Because I am quite sure that you didn't care back then when your idol was pulling all this crap on the sheep. You sat there like the rest of us did, chewing your cud, and contentedly planning your next F.O.T. motel stay, which Armstrong could have easily bought and sold with our tithe money.

The big difference here, of course, is that you are still sitting there, chewing your cud, pining away for the good old days of Armstrongism, while the same corruption (via the sons of Armstrong) goes on right under your nose.

Stupid is, stupid does.

Anonymous said...

Tom scoffeth: "If you had written the above in an exam, what grade do you think you would get? Methinks you would have got an A+, with the following comments, excellent research, a clear grasp of the issues, a carefully marshalled argument, critical analysis of the facts; a well written and presented essay! Keep up the good work, you will go a long way!!"

Tom,

If you thought I was going to post an in depth analysis of causation, progression, malignancy, degradation, and terminal phases of a whole host of cancers you were way off the mark.

First off, I am not an oncologist. Secondly, diet, genetics, high risk behavior, and environmental factors are all proven causes of and / or contributors to cancer. If you don't believe this, I am sure you could find work as a spokesperson for the tobacco, asbestos, and petroleum industries and still get a good night's sleep.

You, once again are missing the obvious point that was being made. Cancer happens to all types of people. If it makes you feel better to believe that God smiteth the faithful women with cancer, intestinal blockages, and ingrown toenails, than you go right ahead and think that...But get your home tested for Radon...just in case.

Anonymous said...

There is a comedian out there whose name I can't think of at the moment, but he has a great line; "You can't cure stupid."

But I don't think that applies to our self-righteous, holier than thou, and contributing know it all, Tom Mahon. Many in the WCG were just as 'converted'. I posted a quote by MLK a few days back that applies perfectly to Tom that goes something close to this: "There are none so dangerous as the willfully ignorant and the conscientiously stupid."

In other words, Tom does it on purpose...Or there is always the possibility that he is a world class crank yanker.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said, "Maybe Tom has the spiritual brass balls to explain Herbert's "prophecy of Garner Ted Armstrong" in Zechariah 3".

Well, Tom? We are all ears!

Anonymous said...

Isn't it unhealthy to keep looking back? Having learned the lessons from HWA's past, let's 'forget those things that are behind'.

Oops - I forgot, Paul said that!

Tom Mahon said...

Bamboo_bends said...

>>>I first heard about HWA's incest in 1991,<<<

It was reported here that Mr. Armstrong second wife, during the divorce hearings, threatened to divulge information about an incestuous relationship he had with his daughter. However, this information was never disclosed to the court, as his second wife, apparently, got the settlement she wanted.

So, according to that report, the allegation of incest was never tested before a court of law. People just jumped to the conclusion that HWA was guilty on the basis of an allegation made by an unhappy, wife.

Well, allegations are not proof of guilty, you may be disappointed to learn! And as far as I know, his daughter has never publicly stated that she had an incestuous relationship with her dad. And she ought to know!

So reports on the Internet or from former colleagues are not proof of guilt, and they are certainly not going to persuade me that HWA was guilty of incest. I need to see compelling evidence of guilt, not second or third hand reports based on innuendo and supposition.

Byker Bob said...

My problem with HWA is that the more you study, the more you discover that there's no way God could have been working through him, simply because so much of what he did bore bad fruit, was poorly researched, or was just flat wrong.

Take the matter of crosses for instance. As I understand it, HWA got much of his primary information on paganism in the modern church from Alexander Hislop. But, the fact is, nobody ever even questioned that Jesus was crucified on a stake with a crossbar, arms extended, until the 19th and 20th centuries. Iraeneus, Justin Martyr, and others of the antenicene fathers knew that Jesus had been crucified on a cross, and actually wrote about it. Also, the writer of the non canonical Gospel of Barnabas. But, HWA used the Russellite approach, no doubt influenced by Hislop, instead of the witness of those who were at best a century removed from the actual event.

I don't happen to know the Babylonian alphabet, but who knows if Tammuz is spelled with a Babylonian letter that even resembles a T or a +? And, even if it were, how would that have anything to do with how Jesus was crucified? The fact is that even as early as 100 BC, the Romans were putting a crosspiece on their stakes as an execution vehicle for their criminals.

Basically, this is another one of HWA's insidious plots to somehow make it appear as if there couldn't possibly have been any Christians outside of his little pissant WCG.

I would suggest to Tom that he visit the Exit and Support Network site and read some of the testimonies of former ministers. The one by Ken Westby does a nice job of outlining the basic problems surrounding Armstrongism as early as the mid 1970s. It touches on GTA's problems, but HWA's sexual sins were still largely unknown at that time.

BB

Tom Mahon said...

Charlie said:

>>>If you thought I was going to post an in depth analysis of causation, progression, malignancy, degradation, and terminal phases of a whole host of cancers you were way off the mark.<<<

I never thought or expecting anything of the kind. In reply to my question you said, "I do know why people die of these things." May I remind you of my original question, "Sadly, cancer has claimed the lives of many WCG women, and it doesn't appear that anyone has asked, why?"

Have you ever ask, why so many Christian women have died, and are dying of gynaecological related cancers?

Anonymous said...

Tom's Answer - I guess according to Tom's logic, the answer is because WCG women are not God's people protected from the diseases of Egypt as a type.

Brilliant Tom - you just disproved your God and idol Herbert Armstrong again!

Richard

Anonymous said...

Tom explaineth: "So, according to that report, the allegation of incest was never tested before a court of law. People just jumped to the conclusion that HWA was guilty on the basis of an allegation made by an unhappy, wife."

"Well, allegations are not proof of guilty, you may be disappointed to learn! And as far as I know, his daughter has never publicly stated that she had an incestuous relationship with her dad. And she ought to know!"

"So reports on the Internet or from former colleagues are not proof of guilt, and they are certainly not going to persuade me that HWA was guilty of incest. I need to see compelling evidence of guilt, not second or third hand reports based on innuendo and supposition."

Tom, I don't know if you care or not but innuendo, rumor, and supposition was all herbie and his pastors needed to justify disfellowshipping a member. Herbie was especially fond of saying that 'where there is so much smoke, surely there is a fire'.

Also, it is hardly a surprise that Dorothy would remain silent on the subject. If I were her, I would think the less the subject was brought up the better. With that said, outside of videotaped evidence or confession, I find the homes bought and sold on behalf of and the salary paid to Dorothy for *No* services rendered highly suspicious.

Personally, I find armstrong's twisted theology, failed prophecies, dangerous doctrines, autobiography, and apathy toward his members to be more than enough evidence to convince the deaf, dumb, and blind that he was not a man chosen by, used, by, or inspired by God.

One other thing, do you really think that an 85 year old man can keep a 35 year old woman happy as a wife???? I have a daughter and I know you do too...and it would be a cold day in hell that I would give my blessing to such an arrangement as a father. I can't imagine even you giving your blessing to such an arrangment even if it were "In the church".


OBAMA 2008

Anonymous said...

Tom clarifieth and repeateth again: "I never thought or expecting anything of the kind. In reply to my question you said, "I do know why people die of these things." May I remind you of my original question, "Sadly, cancer has claimed the lives of many WCG women, and it doesn't appear that anyone has asked, why?"

"Have you ever ask, why so many Christian women have died, and are dying of gynaecological related cancers?"

Tom, Help me out here! From the style that your question is posed in, (A style all to familiar to WCG alumni), it appears to the reader as though you know the answer to the question you are asking. If this is not the case, please clarify further. If you do purport to know the answer, please share with the group.



OBAMA 2008

Mel said...

Ok, ok, Tom...

Why don't you just state what your belief is regarding "why so many Christian women have died, and are dying of gynaecological related cancers"

(Instead of jerking us around while suggesting you have special knowledge unworthy of us, which you will not reveal unless we respond in the "tom-approved" manner.)

If the idea that you are a chain-yanker is simply a myth, you certainly aren't trying to dispel it while playing these games.

Miguel de la Rodente said...

Part of the HWAcaca was that women got female types of cancer from having sex with uncircumcised males. I know of some converts who, because of this, out of love for their wives, actually got circumcised as adults! (ouch!)

But, it seems that everyone uses things of which they don't approve as cause for such cancers. Interracial sex has been cited, the pill, masturbation, women wearing men's clothes (pants) and even the use of tampons have been cited.

Bottom line is that if the medical profession had conclusive evidence one way or the other, we'd have the same types of warnings about the causative practice as we now have regarding cigarettes and alcohol.

Some people get downright stupid and superstitious with their religion. One minister in WCG didn't like gum chewing. He toured a chewing gum plant, and noticed that the organic chemical urea was used as a softener for gum. So, he created a mental picture in his congregations' minds of urine being used in gum. And, of course, the brainwashed used this as ammo on their kids, making chewing gum just slightly more disgusting than pork chops.

Religion ain't bad. You just have to separate out the extra-biblical stuff, speculation, and ignorant superstition. But, then again, those are the things that Church of God "ministers" typically use to control the sheeple.

Anonymous said...

You're all buying into Tom's deep need to be the star of the AW blog. Ever since he popped up a month ago, we waste our time and feed his beast ad naseum.

We all know how he thinks. Now ignore him to death and get on with something intelligent, meaningful and helpful.

Ayn Stein said...

I disagree, anonymous. Many people from the ACOG splinters read here. With Tom constantly bringing up elements from their pseudo belief system, some of the best exCOGnito minds get to debunk and diffuse the nonsense. Tom helps us to do incredible good here!

Anonymous said...

I remember hearing sermons in the 70's about going to Petra. Harsh conditons for us, you know the story. I was always mindful of the fact that if my inlaws or my relatives got wind of this that they would contact the authorities, our daughter was about 5 or 6 years old at the time. Imagine a church going to take their 5 year old granddaughter to a Jordanian wasteland to wait for the 2nd coming. Makes you shudder that it could have happened.

Anonymous said...

Ayn...you have a point there. Tom can make us all thank God we are not like other men....:)

Tired Skeptic said...

Gavin,

It isn't clear whether you intended the premise, but your posting suggests another topic of amused concern: In demonstrating that Roderick, David, Ronald, Joe, Mark, Clyde, Frederick, Robert, William [well we aren't really sure about the last three names] would certainly pick the wrong answer, It does appear that you are tacitly saying that the cultmeisters of the foundering flock are incapable of learning. Past history seems that you have them dead to rights, if that were your intent.

In fact, one would have sort of thought that with 1972 coming and going without leaving to a place of safety and Jesus not returning shortly after the Great Tribulation not running its 3 1/2 years that some of the above aforementioned nim nuls would have ascertained that Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet, particularly when he signed his coworker and member letters with "in Jesus' Name" after giving the latest incarnation of failed prophetic dates way back then before they failed -- well, mostly, since some of the prophecies actually died before the ink was dry on his signature, like the one going over radio to Jerusalem. It's really bad when you can't even predict the past accurately.

Well, you know, they never learned. And here it is over 20 years after Herbert Armstrong died and many of his prophecies had gone poofy before he even bit the dust to be placed in his own place of safety six feet under.

One would think that the top ministers would begin to say, "Gee [euphemism intended], that didn't go the way thought it would: Shoot, what do we do now!?!".

Incapable of learning. Or more accurately, ever learning, but never coming to the truth. Having a zeal but misdirected. Utterly wrong.

And now we come down to today to the slowest learner of all: Terrible Tyrant Tom -- the Old Testament Christian under the Law of Death, less Ty and more Rant than ever.

Tom Mahon said...

Anonymous said...

>>>You're all buying into Tom's deep need to be the star of the AW blog.<<<

Truth, which is almighty, will always triumph over over folly and madness!

>>>We all know how he thinks.<<<

You don't have the faintest idea how I think.

>>>Now ignore him to death and get on with something intelligent, meaningful and helpful.<<<

"Intelligent?" Now that would be a break through! Perhaps you may begin by adding your name to your comments, however inane they might be.

Tom Mahon said...

Tired Skeptic said...

>>>It isn't clear whether you intended the premise, but your posting suggests another topic of amused concern: In demonstrating that Roderick, David, Ronald, Joe, Mark, Clyde, Frederick, Robert, William [well we aren't really sure about the last three names]<<<

At least they have names! But then, anyone quoting from a scrapbook of religious platitudes is likely to be too embarrassed to reveal his or her identity.

Don't you just love being nameless!

Mr. Bruggeman said...

Tom wrote:

>>>At least they have names! But then, anyone quoting from a scrapbook of religious platitudes is likely to be too embarrassed to reveal his or her identity.
Don't you just love being nameless!<<<

C'mon, Tom!
Lately, you've been putting down people for not using their names, yet didn't you, in a bunch of posts, refer to yourself as simply "Tom", or "Vista Admin"?

Who are you to declare others as unworthy if they choose to not use their whole or real names?

You seem to really be reaching in your looking for other's faults.

That's a sign of someone who needs help, himself.

Do you think it's cool to act the elitist here? You must know that such an approach here will bring a negative reaction toward you.

So, quit whining and pretending it's all the fault of those less than you in spiritual stature. How many times have you claimed people here are eating their own vomit, or various other put-downs you write about others?

I still don't get the so-called "logic" in the idea of yours that pretends to have you called by God...

How did that go? "If God used herbie to call me, then herbie must be of God."

Am I close?

Maybe herbie and his vomit would have been better to ignore.

Corky said...

Yeah, Tom Mahon, it was so much a lie about HWA committing incest that he sued several websites and individuals for millions of dollars.

Dorothy came forward and denied everything and sued for redress of grievance. She gave up her mansion supplied by the church's tithes just so as to deny such dirty allegations against her father.

Why doesn't she deny these allegations today? Why is she not suing someone for saying such things?

Tom, you are an idiot and you can't even count as someone who even needs to be answered in all your blind faith in an Idol.

The WCG of HWA is gone - along with all the false prophecies and the other dirty "allegations". It simply doesn't matter any more.

You are a victim of the dim, dark past of the defunct Worldwide Church of God, - get over it. The great tribulation did not occur in 1972 and Jesus did not return in 1975 - get over it already!

Will it occur in 2012? No, it won't, and it won't occur in your lifetime and it will never occur.

It either happened when Jesus and the apostles said it would (in the first century) or it didn't and if it didn't happen then, then it won't ever happen.

Tired Skeptic said...

You don't have the faintest idea how I think.

With a brain deficient in the number of connections across the corpus callosum, lack of empathy, lack of conscience, distorted perceptions and a childish penchant for petty games pretty much sums up how Terrible Tyrant Tom thinks -- so we all here do know how he thinks: With the mind of a blaspheming idolater thinking nothing can ever touch him in his arrogant narcissism.

Yes, we know exactly how he thinks: With a deficient testosterone poisoned deprived depraved adolescent brain, making obvious self-contradictory statements which are easily discerned as outright deliberate lies.

Terrible Tyrant Tom is a mere Biblical illiterate Armstrongist cartoon character filled with the works of the flesh -- the very picture of a potential Jim Jones or David Koresh waiting for his own version of a place of safety concentration camp where he can satisfy his blood lust upon hapless victims.

Thankfully, there isn't a God who will let Tom have his way.

Anonymous said...

Will it occur in 2012? No, it won't, and it won't occur in your lifetime and it will never occur.
It either happened when Jesus and the apostles said it would (in the first century) or it didn't and if it didn't happen then, then it won't ever happen

I recommend the article in New Horizons Sept/Oct 2007: 'The Second Advent: were the apostles mistaken?' View at www.cgom.org

Anonymous said...

In a booklet written by Garner Ted Armstrong when he was with his Church of God, International, he confirmed HWA incest.

Tom Mahon said...

Mr. Bruggeman said...

>>>Lately, you've been putting down people for not using their names, yet didn't you, in a bunch of posts, refer to yourself as simply "Tom", or "Vista Admin"?<<<

I have not been "putting down" anyone. I believe it is grossly discourteous to other posters and lurkers alike, for some contributors to come here and post comments, without adding their names to them. It is also the height of cowardice to come on a public Blog and slander Mr. Armstrong, who is not alive to defend himself, without having the courage to say who you are.

In retrospect, I would agree that posting under "Tom" is not very specific, as there are millions of Toms in the world. However, when for technical reasons I posted under VistaAdmin, I wrote my full name at the bottom of every post I submitted.

I have nothing to hide, for my family and I have been taught by Mr. Armstrong, from the word of God, how to live a life of honesty, integrity and decency.

Stingerski said...

Tom preaches:

I have nothing to hide, for my family and I have been taught by Mr. Armstrong, from the word of God, how to live a life of honesty, integrity and decency.

Well, Tom, you must be the only person in the entire world who learned this from Armstrong. Because few, if any, of the "ministers" he taught (including his own son) learned anything of the sort.

Armstrong taught them all right. But it was not about honesty, integrity and decency. Because the old narcissist had none of those qualities. And you cannot teach about what you do not know.

So, it's for sure that any honesty, integrity and decency you "may" have picked up along the way did NOT come from any Herbert -w? Armstrong. And as is, you seem to be sorely lacking in those characteristics here. Because your posts also contain little of those qualities. No, what you learned from Armstrong is exactly how you appear to be here: a person in denial, full of duplicity and self-righteousness and one that has gone off the religious deep end. Just as your idol did.

Lussenheide said...

(Anonymous said...
In a booklet written by Garner Ted Armstrong when he was with his Church of God, International, he confirmed HWA incest.)

Really now Annonymous! How simple and the rest of us have never even heard about it, in spite of the internet, "The Journal" and general scuttlebut on Forums.

Im not saying that HWA is not guilty. I challenge you to provide "said document" and to post here.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

GTA published a number of booklets copyright Church of God, International in the 1980s to mid 1990s that dealt with matters relating to his father - HWA.

In one booklet, "History of the Church of God, International", he related the story of his confrontation with his father in Arizonia.

As he relates it, GTA threatened to go public with the family secret and made the statement to HWA in the late 1970s, "I could destroy you".

From that point forward, HWA was obsessed with GTA going public, and cut off all commincations with his son.

Anonymous said...

"St. Tom, I still say you are yanking our chains here, and having one helluva good laugh in the process, just like your idol Armstrong did. Or else you are one, very sick puppy. Maybe you should joins ranks with Ron Weinland and then wait for the men in the white coats to come and pick you up."

Trust me when I say, Tom is a fake. He's 22, bored, and he's been playing you all like a fiddle.

Anonymous said...

If Garner Ted Armstrong is to be believed, then GTA himself answers Gavin's original question:

In the booklet, "Now It can Be Told, The PLAIN TRUTH About the "PLACE OF SAFETY" and the PHILADELPHIAN CHURCH",Copyright 1997, The Church of God, International, Tyler, Texas (Page 15):

These events tended to support my mother's assumption that the "Rose Red City of the Rock" she saw depicted in that 1935 issue of National Geographic was the prophesied place of safety.......My father began to believe Petra was indeed the place. My parents visited the site in the mid 1950s with my brother, Richard David (who died following a fatal automobile crash in 1958). At that time, it was an arduous trip, and one had to ride on horseback or on a camel through the Siq.

By the time I was a junior in Ambassador College, in 1955, the concept that the church would go to Petra was deeply ingrained. We all believed it. We hoped for it - wrote and preached about it.

Anonymous said...

If Garner Ted Armstrong is to be believed, then GTA himself answers Gavin's original question:

In the booklet, "Now It can Be Told, The PLAIN TRUTH About the "PLACE OF SAFETY" and the PHILADELPHIAN CHURCH",Copyright 1997, The Church of God, International, Tyler, Texas (Page 15):

These events tended to support my mother's assumption that the "Rose Red City of the Rock" she saw depicted in that 1935 issue of National Geographic was the prophesied place of safety.......My father began to believe Petra was indeed the place. My parents visited the site in the mid 1950s with my brother, Richard David (who died following a fatal automobile crash in 1958). At that time, it was an arduous trip, and one had to ride on horseback or on a camel through the Siq.

By the time I was a junior in Ambassador College, in 1955, the concept that the church would go to Petra was deeply ingrained. We all believed it. We hoped for it - wrote and preached about it.

Byker Bob said...

We know that most of the HWA archives are preserved on various websites, but I'm unaware of any sites preserving Garner Ted's articles and writings. Since some of GTA's later booklets are occasionally quoted here and on other forums, does anyone know of a site where one can locate these archives?

BB

Stingerski said...

Anon. said :

Trust me when I say, Tom is a fake. He's 22, bored, and he's been playing you all like a fiddle.

I've suspected this all along, that Tom is just a chain yanking yahoo. Nobody but a chain yanker could write such things about Herbert the Pervert.

But what is your basis for saying what you did, if I may ask? Do you know him personally? Please explain, if only to satisfy my 6th sense that I was right.

Gavin said...

I remember Tom from his correspondence back on the website that preceded this blog. He isn't 22 and seems to be quite genuine. He has a website here

mel said...

Thanks, Gavin.

I find (or is that "found"?) there are all kinds of beliefs adhered to by the folks who were once in the church that HWA built.

It's quite the smörgåsbord, with perhaps less pork and shellfish than a typical smörgåsbord.

I've attended some WCG anniversary celebrations, at which many attended who have gone in different directions. It's those and funerals which tend to bring the folks together, imo.
Maybe funerals the most.

And, friends have sometimes filled me in on what's up with the folks who didn't attend those anniversaries and funerals for "religious reasons"- they have mostly been members of Pack's or Flurry's church.

All over the map, but those I've met in the ensuing years...it's kind of like meeting old family members again.

And, oh, the stories, in all this family! It's quite a thing.

Tom's just one type among many.

Anonymous said...

The place of safety, what a riot! I remember hearing that used like a whip, if you leave then you won't be in the place of safety. Then after the last FOT I went to, I decided that I'd rather be in the tribulation with all my real family than with the bickering bunch of people who had a monopoly on the holy spirit in their minds. Glad I did not be baptized afterall.