The news from Kubikistan:
BALLOT RESULTS FOR THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF ELDERS:
Elected to the Council of Elders:
International: Paul Kieffer
US: Aaron Dean, Darris McNeely, Robin Webber
Motion to rescind the 2007 GCE resolution to relocate in Texas:
For: 186 Against: 176
Wow! After slapping Aaron Dean all the way into next week, Aaron stages an impressive comeback. Dennis Diehl comments: May I be so bold as to suggest that Aaron Dean's censure has started a change that will lead him to the Presidency of UCG next time around?
Gone: Leon Walker, Jim Franks and Larry Salyer. A power shift perhaps from the hardliners to the "progressives"?
Not only that, but the empire builders have just seen their BMW driven off the edge of the cliff. The lads are staying in Cincy.
Gotta love a bunfight... but canst thou sense a gathering of cabals, a whiff of schismatic ozone on the air?
45 comments:
Be warned: Looking at omens as harbingers of change will be just as disappointing in the UCG as they were in United for all the same reasons... and the same people in charge.
Do expect more of the same recycled garbage United has always pumped through its gussied up cesspool
That's a close vote on the relocation issue, and while we don't now how close the vote was on the new leadership, my guess is that we're going to see the (more) conservative UCG break off into something holding to the "Faith once delivered."
Obviously there is some trouble in River City. Slim majority rebuffs HQ decision- a decision which already has cost a bunch of $$. The power brokers must be livid. We will see what happens- but any split would only happen if financial security for the full-timers is assured.
A split coming? No, this is just democracy in action. But I do see LCG making a statement in support of the hardliners in hopes of getting a few of them to break with UCG and join ranks. Watch for Bob Thiel's editorial to see if an olive branch is waved.
Seems to me LCG would move to work with people like Robin Webber, who supports ties with other COG groups. Salyer has bad blood with LCG and doubtful they want him back.
If a "few" leading ministers break off from UCG then I would characterize that as a split, albeit a limited one. Of course, if "many" break off we have a bona fide split.
I don't miss it.
Pastoring in WCG was one drama after the next with the administration. And it still goes on and on.
"What's going to happen next?" was a common gnawing in the stomach to those pastors endeavoring to actually pastor, encourage and teach what we thought was more correct than what we may have grown up with. That, after all, is how we ended up in WCG
In hindsite, there never was only an illusion of stability. Perhaps it would have been different had I gone to the Methodist Seminary I had also been accepted to, but perhaps it's all just that way.
As noted in the past, most churches multiply by division and add to themselves by subtracting others from other churches.
Around here, religion is synonymous with drama. Pastors in, pastors out, money drama, adminitsrative drama, member drama.
Not unlike the drama in the NT between the Apostles of James and Paul who was viewed mostly as a wannabe interloper.
A client was all upset that a few weeks ago in her big big church, the pastor fired the music guy but then the old patriarch of the church came up to the pulpit and told him he could not do that without permission, which was probably true. The pastors son raised his hand to speak and came to the lecturn and decked the old patriarch! In came the police. Needless to say, there has been a split in that church. Split lip, split congregation.
"Where two or three are gathered to gether in my name, one will demand to be in charge, one will follow and one will be assigned to clean up and then fall away and start a new church."
It's in the Bible :)
Personal opinion. Perhaps the Aaron Dean censure started all this stuff and we will see him rise to the occasion and be President of UCG in time.
Some disagreements need to be handled in ten seconds or less and not as Aaron was. This chicken may have come home to roost.
Kubikistan LOL!!
On a more serious note, there was a recent thread on the Shadows of WCG forum, by an unconverted mate of a new recruit to UCG, that suggests the mind and milieu control of the members in UCG is just as bad as, if not worse than, it was in WCG Classic.
This is backed up by the fact that the hardliners I know of, from my old congregation(s) went, with one or two exceptions, with United, after the changes really hit hard.
United likes to promote itself as "the party church". But scratch the surface, listen to current and former members, and check out their version of AC......It's Back to the Future all right! (Six modules on The Fall of the British Empire, in a course that ostensibly covers Daniel & Revelation? Yeah that's not prophecy-mongering, not at all.)
Nothing up yet on the UCG site. Bizarre! More time to recount the ten hanging chads.
What do you mean? It is on the UCG site. Maybe not the public site (didn't look), but it's on the member side:
http://members.ucg.org/council/reports/
Do you think their magic wands locked during the dual and dead people appeared?
Anonymous said...
A split coming? No, this is just democracy in action. But I do see LCG making a statement in support of the hardliners in hopes of getting a few of them to break with UCG and join ranks. Watch for Bob Thiel's editorial to see if an olive branch is waved.
Salyer isn't going back to Meredith after losing out on that little insurgency at the GCG!
Under Robert's Rules, a motion to rescind, repeal or annul or amend something ALREADY adopted, for instance, requires a two-thirds vote, a majority with previous notice, or a majority of the entire membership.
A ten-vote majority does not equal two-thirds. This may just be a postponement.
Good OLD Robin Webber. UCG still is padding it's hierarchy with OLD men whop are still locked into the old ways of doing things that they learned in WCG. This should be a big shot in the arm to Webber's ego. His mother told people in Pasadena for years that her son was going to be a major force in the church and that he would eventually be martyred for the 'truth'. Even though Webber wants better communication between the splinter cults, he is not a progressive person in almost all other areas. Watch for the jackboot brigade to start working overtime
Come on now! We all know that UCG does NOT vote!!!!!! They ballot!
Always remember that the significant difference between the two is that voting is where a persons name is written on a piece of paper and balloting is where a name is written on a piece of paper.
There is a major difference brethren! Get with the program!
Dixon should scan a copy of a UCG ballot for his next edition.
Another "people's shadow ballot" UCG referendum could be conducted with a wider demographic than a measly 362 ministerial ballots out of 20,000 members.
The UCG article today doesn't even describe the amendments that were voted on, excuse me, balloted down. How informative.
"The UCG article today doesn't even describe the amendments that were voted on, excuse me, balloted down. How informative."
The list of amendments have been posted at each local church for several weeks leading up to the GCE. They were also all covered during the announcement period during services the week before (at least in my area). I believe it was even in the most recent United News. Why would anything other than the results need to be posted again?
The not so dumb sheep in ucg have known for years the could be a split because the are soooo many different fractions amongst the Ministry. Ucg is a smorgasboard of all aspects of Wcg through all the decades !!
President Aaron Dean for the future ... ohhhhhh eck !!!!!!!!!
Good riddance to Salyer. He was the bad guy in the Global split. While the bylaws allowed him to do what he did at Global, the arrogant and high-handed means by which he took over were very unchristian. He stomped into Sabbath services and ordered Wayne Pyle to step aside as someone else was going to do the sermonette. He ordered Rod Meredith to step aside as he (Salyer) was going to give the sermon. He presided over the bankruptcy of Global and the subsequent bankruptcy of CGCF. How in the world he ever got into UCG's leadership is a testament to his political prowess, not his Christian leadership. Further, the first thing he did at Global was drastically cut funding for proclaiming the gospel. That was also his position at UCG, as can be seen by his comments like "money isn't the answer" and "we must use our resources more efficiently." Welcome to Webber who wants to dramatically increase expenditures on public proclamation.
Salyer will never go to LCG as long as Meredith is there. While Meredith is still desperate to vindicate himself over the Global/Living split (witness the 2002 "repentance" of Raymond McNair), Salyer will never repent of anything, especially to Meredith. Further, LCG is a dying church; only an idiot would go there.
Anonymous said...
Good OLD Robin Webber.....
The man is actually quite boring.
Now his dad is quite an entertaining character in a xenophobic kind of way! "I'm telling you...the chinks are taking over San Marino!" At least his dad would deign to sit down and talk to us AC undergraduates....and we loved him for it.
His mother told people in Pasadena for years that her son was going to be a major force in the church and that he would eventually be martyred for the 'truth'.
Now that's just creepy....your mother wishing your death....yuk.
Even though Webber wants better communication between the splinter cults, he is not a progressive person in almost all other areas.
He was JW Tkach Sr's little pet puppy for a number of years.
I remember sitting through a painfully dull presentation by Robbin Webber on how to be an organized minister. He revealed the profound truth that one could take things that needed to be done and put on a three by five card in a card file for reference...
.............ummm.........I got up and left for an early lunch.
I sat with Robbin and Joe Tkach Sr. at three in the morning in a cafe talking and Joe Sr. reached over and slapped Robbin in the back of the head and reminded him that he needed to listen better...
It had to be a humiliating moment for him and reinforced my impression of JT as rather thuggish.
WWJS Who would Jesus slap?
The May United News says the 2009-2009 $24.5 million dollar budget just approved by the GCE includes a 5% raise for the U.S. ministry, and $550,000 for financing and construction costs for the home office.
Were 362 confused UCG elders balloting FOR the 2007 resolution to relocate, remotely voting AGAINST the 2008 resolution? Or with the order or meaning reversed, vice versa?
All:
Robin Webber lives in my little town of Menifee, CA.
Once in a blue moon, my wife sees him floating around the Staples store.
In all the years that he has lived here, there has not been ONE overture, one phone call, Zero Contact, to the only "splinter group" that exists south of Pasadena all the way to Mexico, which is our group in Lake Elsinore CA, "Rock Valley Christian" which Gavin featured a month ago or so.
So someone can mouth the sounds of "communicating with other groups", but actions would speak alot louder than words.
Apology and humility from UCG would be a good first start. Also treating groups in an "adult-adult" fashion, not "Parent-Child".
PS- Jack Webber, Robin's Dad was a real card. Definitely a top 10 character to remember as Bamboo Bends mentioned.
Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA
"In all the years that he has lived here, there has not been ONE overture, one phone call, Zero Contact,"
Isn't that the truth! WCG has a whole Reconciliation Dept dedicated to reconciliation with the wrong people.
Dear Brethren,
There seems to be no question but that end-time prophecy is being fulfilled at the gas pump....
http://www.cog-ff.com/
"This is backed up by the fact that the hardliners I know of, from my old congregation(s) went, with one or two exceptions, with United, after the changes really hit hard.
United likes to promote itself as "the party church". But scratch the surface, listen to current and former members, and check out their version of AC......It's Back to the Future all right!"
I can second that. A sixties hardliner WCG deacon who turned elder in my local area went straight to United. He probably still worships the ground HWA walked on.
These votes may explain why Clyde Kilough's pre-Conference letter to UCG elders addressed the topic of spiritual maturity, even when there are disagreements. He reads from it extensively in the 5/15/08 "About Our Father's Business" video.
If the ministers and members are mature, there need be no split over the Home Office issue. Doctrinal disputes are another matter -- and are why I'm away from UCG right now.
But if you wanted a sign of UCG being "progressive," shouldn't the move out of Ohio have been upheld?
Aaron Dean for UCG President? Can't see that happening. It's a full-time Home Office job -- and he'd have to give up whatever he does now to do that.
Robin Webber has a monthly column in World News and Prophecy. He comes across there as a moderate-sounding minister for UCG.... emphasis on the sounding.
What is happening at Untied is not surprising, given that it was founded not as a vehicle to DO something, but as a means to just say no.
There is no overall common vision as to how to preach the gospel to the world. Or how about growing the church? The business model of the church has not changed from Harmstrong days, other than the boys on the inside get to rotate whose seat is in the chair.
Proclamations aside, what has really changed between Kilough and his predecessors? This is a boat no one wants to rock, hoping that all things hold together as the aging ministry retires and relies on HQ, wherever it is, to support them. I think the chances for a split are low - no one wants to insist on his ideas enough to risk losing all the other benefits they have by hanging together. Hirelings, as Mahon would say.
As for Aaron Dean, he's become the modern day Abishag the Shunnamite - the hot water bottle of the last mighty king. Keep him close to you and some of the last king's mojo will rub off on you, and give you some credibility as this sessions leader.
KMS
Blogger Lussenheide said...
Jack Webber, Robin's Dad was a real card. Definitely a top 10 character to remember as Bamboo Bends mentioned.
Is his old man still alive?
He used to just crack me up. Was the kind of a guy who could use the ethic slur names, and everyone but the politically correct would laugh. Everyone knew there was no hatred or malice behind it. And it wasn't like he was preaching and had to set any example. He was just being true to his upbringing and generation.
I think the faculty and its British-Israel doctrines, and not letting black students date white girls were more racist than Jack Webber ever was.
Surprisingly, I never met any black people who were offended by him, he was real, and most blacks I have known like real people. Its the sneaky people that bother them.
He was kind of like Rodney Dangerfield in some ways.
I'd go seek him out if he was sitting in the student center, he always made me laugh!
"Good OLD Robin Webber"
I was being sarcastic in calling him that. Though he is old now.
He was a tyrant wrecking lives under Tkach Sr's nose. People were scared to cross his path because they knew he was Sr's 'favorite son'.
There is absolutely NOTHING admirable about Robin.
I watched him demand that thousands of dollars be spent each Feast in Pasadena for gift baskets for him and other ministers. This was while many members barely were able to eat at Lucky Boy's for 'Feast' meals.
Webber lived the high life at the expense of the members. It was with great delight that much of Pasadena rejoiced when he ran with his tail between his legs to UCG.
Sadly, his abuse continued on in UCG and still does to this day. How else would he make it to the Council of Elders. These are all men who have walked over peoples backs to get to the positions they are in. They still expect the accolades, nice cars and homes that come with being such important men in 'god's work.' A pox be on them all!
"Welcome to Webber who wants to dramatically increase expenditures on public proclamation."
Why is indoctrinating more people with Lifton's thought-reform principles a good thing?
Oh right.
"WCG has a whole Reconciliation Dept dedicated to reconciliation with the wrong people."
Ain't that the truth! ORM wants to buddy up and "apologize" to people who were never former members in the first place, who neither want nor need said apology!
Ron Kelly are you listening? Where did the money from the sale of the campus go? Straight into your pocket, or did you divvy it up with Junior and Weazell?
"The May United News says the 2009-2009 $24.5 million dollar budget just approved by the GCE includes a 5% raise for the U.S. ministry, and $550,000 for financing and construction costs for the home office."
A few points on this one:
That's too much money, considering the membership numbers that are floated by both UCG and Thiel, with regards to UCG's numbers. Must have had a lot of "building fund" special offerings last year. :-(
A 5% raise for the Levitical priesthood --- that's shocking. Well not really.
$550K for construction and building costs for a move that is now no longer going to take place --- anyone besides me think it was just a straw man to milk the sheeple in the first place? The CoE probably never had any intentions of moving at all!
"Dear Brethren,
There seems to be no question but that end-time prophecy is being fulfilled at the gas pump....
http://www.cog-ff.com/"
What the...? gas pump? prophecy? You've lost me. Then again, how can you find anything in that cluttered Herbert worshiping website! That has got to be THE most bloated mess of a cog website I've ever seen!
Billingsley is the ultimate Herbert worshiper. The Father and Jesus come AFTER Herb in greatness. Or so it would seem from his website.
Billingsley also has the per capita record for splitting his congregation and devouring his own flock. He'll be a penny-less church of one soon, but at least he won't have anyone that disagree with him.
Ron Kelly are you listening? Where did the money from the sale of the campus go? Straight into your pocket, or did you divvy it up with Junior and Weazell?
I asked the same thing when after being told "we would take care of retirement" he said, "now we can't because Jesus performed a great miracle in WCG and we lost a lot of support."
He didn't answer. When I asked if Jesus played a trick on us all until he decided to do the miracle, he said nothing. I understand he enjoys retirement now doing Fall for Jesus Non-Festival Cruises.
On another note. I'd still like to know how Randal Pack went from Saul to Paul in asking me "should I destroy my Dad with one letter I could write on the internet?" (I said no, he's your dad, let it run it's course,) to a highly paid minister in RCG, in just over two years.
I would never even mention this unless I was not completely stunned by the flip flop that was not a minor thing. Of course the answer, perhaps, is "ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhh and I'll take care of everything."
Well, OK, how do we take this all in?
If we postulate that God is guiding the balloting process, this would seem to indicate that a correction is taking place at UCG.
I knew some of these people whose names have been brought up, many years ago. Often, that is of no value, because the authoritarian structure of the ACOGs has warped and changed many of those who have been sucked into it. I can't imagine some of the innocent and docile Imperial School students whom I knew way back when, doing some of the things attributed to them. But, not having been in WCG or any splinter for over 30 years, I take everyone's word for the fact that these guys might have been morphed into monsters.
A more logical point of view, is that United is simply a man made organization, run as a corporation by people who were never part of the corporate world. We get to watch them bungle through the jungle, and it is often amusing. WCG/HWA deluded us all into believing that the Holy Spirit was present in his organization. But, the fruits were all carefully faked, a fact that becomes quite obvious considering the abyssimal failure of his very specific prophecies, and his healing doctrine which resulted in the death of so many whose illnesses need not have been terminal. Plus, when was HWA ever "slow to anger"? If the original WCG was suffering from a Spirit deficiency, or total lack, how could the imitators possibly have received anything by transferral?
No. This organization is simply a collection of good ol' boys who are perpetuating the works of a false teacher, have no understanding of the real gospel, and wouldn't know grace from a hole in the ground.
Sad, because some of our families are still blinded participants, but that is their responsibility. I pray for the individual members, but certainly not for the corporate organization which is enabling continued spiritual blindness.
BB
GTA used to tell a story about Leon Walker. Apparently, Leon came to Puerto Rico WCG in 1994, and during the announcements portion of the Sabbath service, told them that their pastor was going to Pasadena for 6 months of "training". Knowing what this meant, 90% of the congregation walked out. Sounds like Leon has been rebuffed again.
If we postulate that Aaron Dean is "guiding" the balloting process, this would seem to indicate that a correction is taking place at UCG.
A ballot correction to make Aaron Dean UCG President. Dean made Tkach Jr. the choice for WCG Pastor General, now he gets to be king of the UCG!
Anonymous said...
"Good OLD Robin Webber"
I was being sarcastic in calling him that. Though he is old now.
He was a tyrant wrecking lives under Tkach Sr's nose. People were scared to cross his path because they knew he was Sr's 'favorite son'.
There is absolutely NOTHING admirable about Robin.
***********
I've heard enough of Robin Webber's sermons to know he's BORING. He could suck the joy out of entire Rose Bowel parade!
He always had the facial expression of someone who just had the crap kicked out of them.
I've never dealt with him in Preacher-Lay person way. He'd be one of the last I'd have gone to for that.
Joe Tkach, Robbin Webber and Mike Feazell were all close Imperial School mate kids. As an outside observer of them in college, they all three seemed like they had had the crap and confidence kicked out of them by strong dominating parents. Mike had a less than secure childhood if I remember correctly.
It took years for them to find their own identies which still reflect their probably rather rough past with religion over which they had no control in their lives as kids.
Robbin was very boring a speaker and he always seemed like he couldn't give himself permission to speak without looking around to see if it was ok.
"The UCG article today doesn't even describe the amendments that were voted on, excuse me, balloted down. How informative."
The list of amendments have been posted at each local church for several weeks leading up to the GCE. They were also all covered during the announcement period during services the week before (at least in my area). I believe it was even in the most recent United News.
Why would anything other than the results need to be posted again?
"Why would anything other than the results need to be posted again?"
Four different UCG amendments were voted on- and four shot down. The total yes and no ministerial votes taken on these four seperate bills to amend weren't posted in the latest United News. Now THAT would be informative.
You are so informed about these four amendments. Which did you want to see or not see UCG pass?
Gavin,
A whiff of schismatic ozone...perhaps the German homonym might be more appropriate.
Cheers,
Jorgheinz
After all that is said and done, the Council of Evil will do exactly what they want to do by using the church corporate governance against the general council.
It's one man one vote, with the only vote that counts -- who ever is in charge.
Nothing ever changes.
Just remember: In United, no one is exactly who they seem to be.
Re: Ron Kelly:
"I understand he enjoys retirement now doing Fall for Jesus Non-Festival Cruises."
That explains why the WW blog got a hit yesterday morning from someone on a Royal Princess cruise ship --- and yesterday evening a hit from someone in Glendora, CA.
Bit early for Tabernacles, but they're right in the middle of the protestants' month-long pentecostal thing aren't they?
Politics as usual in the CofG's
How very sad
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