... so are the days of our lives. Or so the voice-over goes on the soppy soap. A significant episode in the even longer-running COG series seems to have been just been played out with the reported resignation of Paul Kieffer from the United Church of God Council just two days ago. Mr Kieffer stepped down, AW has been informed, as a result of events that allegedly occurred many years previously in WCG.The complication in the plot was the politicking around more current concerns. Kieffer was associated with the unofficial elders' forum, an initiative that failed to endear him to many traditionalists. All is far from sweetness and light, it seems, on the factionalized COE.
49 comments:
As has been pointed out many times in the past, of all the COG splinters that have broken off from the original WCG, the UNITED Church of God is the one most inappropriately named!
It is anything BUT united, that's for sure.
Paul and his wife had dinner over at my place once when they were in Pasadena attending a Ministerial Refresher Program back in the late '80's.
Personally, I liked Paul. He seemed a very sincere and straight-shooting kind of guy. He was pastoring in Germany at the time.
I wish him well.
And believe me, there are a LOT of other frustrated ministers in the UCG who stick around because they simply have nowhere else to go. I attended AC with many of them and have had long conversations with some of them on various occasions.
A UCG pastor once told me he viewed United as a hastily prepared lifeboat that exhausted folks quickly swam toward and climbed into once the good ship WCG sank in the mid '90's. But people can only stay content just so long in a raft in the midst of the ocean eating K-rations and bickering with one another like a bunch of crabs in a small basket pinching each other.
And lifeboats don't tend to travel too terribly far in any one direction. Instead, they drift aimlessly until some more suitable travel accommodation can be had.
Sooner or later I foresee a break coming in the UCG - it's just too fragmented and scattered to continue on as one organization. And besides, divisive splits are arguably the most identifying characteristic of the COG's, so what else is new?
Several years ago I had dinner at a restaurant with an old college friend who pastors several UCG congregations in Ohio. After a wonderful meal and conversation together we were walking out to the parking lot, and he turned and asked me in a frustrated kind of way, "What are we doing wrong? What can we do to revitalize the Work?"
My answer was, "Face reality." But I'm not sure he wanted to hear that, and that particualr point of conversation didn't go any further.
Facing reality is the hardest thing for religiously-inclined people to do - and yet it's the only path to freedom, happiness and real sustainable progress.
"Mr Kieffer stepped down, AW has been informed, as a result of events that allegedly occurred many years previously in WCG."
I guess that means God's True Church has a long memory --- and the progression of "the faith once delivered" really does follow through UCG.
Good to know.
Gavin, does this have anything to do with the elders' meeting that was held in Houston, and the letter you were going to hold aside for a while? Can you spill the beans yet?
And does this suggest that there's going to be an East-West split in UCG?
*refrains from singing "Ding dong the witch is dead" just yet*
"Mr Kieffer stepped down, AW has been informed, as a result of events that allegedly occurred many years previously in WCG."
Did UCG black out Heb. 8:12 from all their Bibles?
“And I will forgive their wrongdoings, and I will never again remember their sins."
OR
Matt.. 18: 21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Forgiveness was like a dirty word among some ministers I knew ......
it was not used in mixed* company
( *members-ministers)
Anoneemoose
"And believe me, there are a LOT of other frustrated ministers in the UCG who stick around because they simply have nowhere else to go."
It would be nice if they went out and got a real job. Or did something that would actually contribute to humanity.
The Apostate Paul
Facing reality is the hardest thing for religiously-inclined people to do
It's also the hardest thing for atheists and agnostics to do. But sure, the UCG is something of a "lifeboat" for Armstrongists following the mid-1990s crackup of WCG Armstrongism. Some people jumped to other ships or boats, others grasped at any old bit of intellectual flotsam they could find to hang onto, such as atheism or rationalism.
The core belief system of Armstrongists is so similar its amazing they keep fracturing like they do.
Part of that belief system is the idea there is some "pure" version of religion out there, while they give lip service to the Biblical definition given in James 1:27, they never use that definition in deciding who and how to organize themselves.
Their "pure religion" or "true religion" definition is some memory of the Armstrong golden years when money flowed liked the rivers in the Holy City of Jerusalem. Some think they have to recreate an old style media empire - even while conventional TV networks and magazines continue to lose viewers.
The poorer of the splinters have had no choice but to use the low cost Internet to spread their message, but they have a hard time getting face time like HWA did when there was only 3 networks and a few cable channels people watched...on the Internet there's thousands of voices and faces and nobody is putting one voice ahead of another strictly with buying media time.
Its about content, and their content sucks. Join us or you die in the Great Tribulation. They are marketing the message of death. If you have a healthy life and mind, its not an attractive message. And these days the mainstream media has gotten so good at fear farming that they almost make Armstrong look like a piker.
The Armstrong message is about living for the future. It requires you not to live in the present. But the present is the only thing that is real, the past is gone, and the future is but a statistical probability.
If Paul had asked me that question, I would have responded differently. My answer would have been, "I suggest that you trust...God. It is His Work, after all, and His responsibility. If it is His will that it prospers, it will. If it is not, it won't. Very simple."
Now, that is facing reality.
Leonardo,
The officially stated size of the UCG should be taken with a grain of salt, since about half the UCG attendees could be better described as unconverted unbelievers with all sorts of different bad ideas.
Even the half of the UCG attendees who do believe something certainly could be described as "exhausted folks" who don't know where else to go or what to do. All the unbelievers in their midst will constantly wear them down while the so-called "ministers" try to tell them that putting up with pure evil from all the unconverted unbelievers and crazies in their midst is "showing love."
The UCG is just there to provide a paycheck for the so-called "ministers." To finance this they had to float a "hastily prepared lifeboat" for the members to bob around in for a while until they can be taken back to the world.
This is not a good situation, but if they leave the "lifeboat" they risk being attacked by some bloodthirsty shark like David Pack who will devour their houses, retirement plans, etc. and then spit them out if they don't go along with every new idea, or building project, or title for himself that he comes up with.
Other dangers out on the sea include "That Scum" Gerald Flurry, a lying, robbing pirate who drank too much alcohol and will just puke filthy lies all over anyone nearby whenever he opens his mouth to rant. (Luckily, Gerald is so short that the vomit might just hit your shoes and not your shirt.)
The COG scene is not the safe, happy place of truth that some have tried to make it out to be. I truly wish that it were, but sadly it is not.
Your UCG friend asked, "What are we doing wrong?" The answer is simple: WAY TOO MUCH SINNING!!!
"It's also the hardest thing for atheists and agnostics to do."
And what reality aren't the atheists and agnostics facing??? Do you have new Insider Info??
If you think rationalism is nothing more than flotsam, then why do you employ it in your daily life?
Jared demonstrates how an intelligent person can go from reasonable to retard in under sixty seconds.
The Apostate Paul
"...the UCG is something of a "lifeboat" for Armstrongists following the mid-1990s crackup of WCG Armstrongism."
you may be on to something there. the key word is "Armstrongist". those that are looking for a man to follow will find one eventually.
those that follow Jesus had pretty much left WCG before UCG formed (i'm sure there were a few stragglers).
those that teach "Mr. Armstrong said..." will get a following for sure, and they'll all be Armstrongists.
those that teach "God said..." will further the work of God.
Apostate Paul wrote:
"It would be nice if they went out and got a real job. Or did something that would actually contribute to humanity."
Perhaps this would be a viable alternative to some of the younger ones. But for the long-time ministers, what real-world job skills do they have?
A lot of these guys are terrified of the real world because they have lived in and promoted a world of fantasy for so long that in manner respects they've lost the ability to deal with reality.
Jared Olar wrote:
"[facing reality is] also the hardest thing for atheists and agnostics to do."
Yet another virtually meaningless "Preach and run" blog comment, I see!
Hardly, Jared. I've known many atheists, agnostics and True Believers in my years, and with respect to the ability of each of these groups to effectively deal with the real-world, the supernatural believers are, hands-down, by far the LEAST equipped to live successful lives in the everyday world of objective reality.
Just reading their many comments here on AW shows us how shallow, irrational and anti-life these folks can be.
No, I won't deal with your subjective "reality" - I lived in that make-believe world for 30 years, and now I live in the real world of objective facts, and having empirically experienced the contrast, would never want to return to your zany universe of gods, angels, demons and all the other irrational beliefs of supernaturalism.
Once again Bamboo_bends hits the target precisely when he (or she) wrote:
"Its about content, and their content sucks. Join us or you die in the Great Tribulation. They are marketing the message of death. If you have a healthy life and mind, its not an attractive message...The Armstrong message is about living for the future. It requires you not to live in the present. But the present is the only thing that is real, the past is gone, and the future is but a statistical probability."
Bingo!
A very accurate and well-expressed assessment, Bamboo!
And consider just some of the actual consequences of such a bankrupt ideology: folks who have no real job skills, no real education that equips them to deal with the real world of here and now, empty bank accounts such that many ardent supporters of Armstrongism are virtually destitute as they approach their retirement years, etc. – the tragic fruits of COGism are almost endless.
This is something “prospective members” of the various COG groups need to be made aware of, and sites like AW fulfill that role.
Anonymous 1:55 wrote:
"Your UCG friend asked, "What are we doing wrong?" The answer is simple: WAY TOO MUCH SINNING!!!"
As usual, Anon, yet another penetrating and perceptive analysis.
As I said in an earlier response, True Believers are simply unequipped to deal with the real world - all they can offer is constant regurgitations of their worn-out religious slogans, such as "STOP SINNING!" or "Just trust God!" of “Christ will return and solve all our problems!”
And then we wonder why the COG’s are quickly moving toward extinction. With mindsets like this, extinction is the only just consequence of such mindless sloganeering.
Even the half of the UCG attendees who do believe something certainly could be described as "exhausted folks" who don't know where else to go or what to do. All the unbelievers in their midst will constantly wear them down while the so-called "ministers" try to tell them that putting up with pure evil from all the unconverted unbelievers and crazies in their midst is "showing love."
AMEN!!!!
"Jared demonstrates how an intelligent person can go from reasonable to retard in under sixty seconds.
The Apostate Paul"
I thought it was must only be me. That comment sounded more like something Tom Mahon would say so I thought maybe "Jared" was really Tom in disguise.
Jared, we all know we need to be Catholic to be free and totally into the correct way of being, but that was a very lame comment for you.
"those that follow Jesus had pretty much left WCG before UCG formed (I'm sure there were a few stragglers"
Anon 07:24, you are waaayyyy out of line on that statement, and it is untrue.
And Leo said, "Just reading their many comments here on AW shows us how shallow, irrational and anti-life these folks can be."
Leo, my friend, you have been getting into the sauce again.
Jared judged:
"Some people jumped to other ships or boats, others grasped at any old bit of intellectual flotsam they could find to hang onto, such as atheism or rationalism."
No one has the right to judge the experience of another or how they interpret it. If a religious experience causes one to dig deeper and see the flaws that lead to it or the problems with the book itself, that is their business.
If some simply don't know what to think anymore or at this time, that is their business and experience.
If someone reasons something through or endeavors to come to a rational perspective FOR THEM as they see it, that is is also their business and can be no other way for them.
If someone wants to return to their roots or flee far from them, that is their business and how they, and only they CAN process THEIR experience.
Just because we all sat at one time in the same seats hearing the same things in the same old way and then having to make a decision due to the insanity of religion and organizations, does not mean we'd all come to the same answer for ourselves or become Catholic and then declared ourselves fixed.
What a cheesy comment from one such as you Jared.
"larry said...
....If it is His will that it prospers, it will. If it is not, it won't. Very simple."
Now, that is facing reality."
I agree with you, here, Larry. But, by your own definition, I'd posit that it is not God's will that the COGs prosper...as their declining numbers, splits ect. suggests.
and too .... "intellectual flotsam "
There are millions and hundreds of millions, billions, who would define the history and present intellect, rationale and playing catch up with scientific realities by Catholicism as rather flotsamic.
Though you are certainly entitled to immerse yourself in it as what's true for you.
"those that teach "God said..." will further the work of God."
Or they might get killed
or categorized
or misdiagnosed
or misinformed
or judged
or marginalized
or cast out
or threatened
or mislead as to who really said what
or depressed
or fearful
or filled with shame
or deceived
or conned
IMHO we need to be very careful believing that when the Bible said "and God said" that it was really not a Priesthood manipulating the story for their own ends. We so easily assume if a man or a book says "and God said" that he is not making it up, lying, deluded, schizophrenic or awash with temporal lobe epilepsy or some form of auditory mental illness.
What if we ever found out the truth about the origins the mind that made a Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah any other Bible "and God" saider? Were they beaten with rods as kids because "they won't die." Were they brought up so guilt, fear and shame based that they could not help but be a nutcase as an adult in land of violence and religious fervor?
Many complain about growing up in WCG and how it made them this or that...(and it did). What about growing up in the "Holy Crap Land"?
Israel is about as much a "Holy Land" historically and now as is Somalia.
Big topic but please get over the idea that just because a book says "and God said" there was not a priest behind the curtain.
It's kinda like just happening to find the Book of the Law when you most needed something to control the troops again and institute one's agenda. Same as finding a pristine passport of a 911 hijacker in the rubble of the WTC.
uh huh.....
Instability will always be a problem for UCG because its premise is purist Armstrongism.
Even the dumbest UCG Titheslave, with the help of a librarian, could see in just a few hours that HWA was a fraud: They will find that the "truth" about BritishIsraelism was not handed to HWA from above, but stolen from an old book written by a Whackjob named JH Allen.
Similarly, many booklets HWA claimed to originate were stolen from other Cornbelt Sabbatarian Whacko groups!
Jared Olar wrote:
"[facing reality is] also the hardest thing for atheists and agnostics to do."
Leonardo,
Spock only had to face reality.
Leonard Nimoy believes in a created cosmos.
Imaging
So far the UCG Germany web site and blog kept by Paul Keiffer is silent about this.
That web site shows he's still on the German Board of Directors.
Jared Olar said...
It's also the hardest thing for atheists and agnostics to do.
Now, now Jared, there's that unrealistic Catholicism shining through again. Since reality simply translates to "The state of things as they actually exist", it's a very slippery slope for any person who relies on "faith" for their belief system, to claim what is and isn't real.
I did a Google search on "Church of Insufficient Data" but I didn't get any hits. That would be the real True Church.
What transgression did Kieffer commit that has to be a problem now that over a decade has passed?
The transgressions of HWA are taboo for discussion. The hirelings we have had at UCG never are clear about anything snless they are hinting for money.
OK, I'm in the dark here. What could this man possibly have done while in WCG that would get him into trouble these many years later with UCG? And if it was so awful, what took UCG so long?
"So far the UCG Germany web site and blog kept by Paul Keiffer is silent about this.
That web site shows he's still on the German Board of Directors."
Oh. The GERMANS. OOOOOHHH now it's all starting to make sense.
I still want to know what the "events that allegedly occurred many years previously in WCG" were.
Does anyone have any idea what that means?
What appears to be the official UCG statement is now posted on Mike Bennett's blog:
http://ucgmikebennett.wordpress.com/2009/12/14/baker-replaces-kieffer-on-ucg-council/
And what reality aren't the atheists and agnostics facing???
God's existence and attributes.
Do you have new Insider Info??
No.
If you think rationalism is nothing more than flotsam, then why do you employ it in your daily life?
You don't know what rationalism is. Evidently you think "rationalism" means "reason." I certainly do not employ rationalism in my daily life. Rationalism is a philosophical error, a belief repugnant to human reason -- the opposite ditch of "fideism."
Jared demonstrates how an intelligent person can go from reasonable to retard in under sixty seconds.
Nice. But I wouldn't expect anything but logical fallacies and personal insults from someone who doesn't know the difference between ratio and rationalismus.
One will have to wonder who Jim Franks, David Buchanan, Clyde Kilough will target next since they succeeded finishing off Paul Kieffer. I wonder if Larry Salyer and Joel Meeker had anything to do with this as well?
Nice job guys; now that your guy, David Baker, will replace Paul Kieffer. How long did it take for you to plan this evil deed out? Shall we call this mission accomplished?
Be sure you don't cross those boys, or hinder their plans, or your past sins will be brought out in public. Christ like; isn't it?
I would fear to walk in your shoes as God see's all!
Yet another virtually meaningless "Preach and run" blog comment, I see!
Ha. "Virtually meaningless" is another way of saying "Not meaningless."
Inasmuch as facing reality is common to all men, it's not at all apparent how you will be able to substantiate your little pat-on-your-own-back assertion that "facing reality is the hardest thing for religiously-inclined people to do."
And that's leaving aside the little detail that humans are by nature religiously inclined.
I've known many atheists, agnostics and True Believers in my years, and with respect to the ability of each of these groups to effectively deal with the real-world, the supernatural believers are, hands-down, by far the LEAST equipped to live successful lives in the everyday world of objective reality.
You're talking about your own limited experience and expecting us to believe that it applies not just to the few hundred people you know with any degree of true familiarity, but to every single one of the billions and billions of souls who are or have been religiously inclined.
Just reading their many comments here on AW shows us how shallow, irrational and anti-life these folks can be.
Again you expect us to agree with conclusions you extrapolate from the decidedly unrepresentative sample of AW commenters, a population probably well under 200.
For someone who prides himself on depending on and relying upon reason, empirical fact, and objective reality, you don't seem to be reasoning very logically or arguing very scientifically.
No, I won't deal with your subjective "reality"
Ah, there's that word again. "Reality." I'm think, however, that I'm not far off in surmising that when you say, "Facing reality is the hardest thing for religiously-inclined people to do," what you really mean is, "I think I'm right and those who disagree with me are wrong."
Welcome to the club.
I lived in that make-believe world for 30 years, and now I live in the real world of objective facts
Or so you assure yourself. Seems to me that you're just a different kind of True Believer, though.
That comment sounded more like something Tom Mahon would say so I thought maybe "Jared" was really Tom in disguise.
Really? It was just a reflection of Leonardo's dogmatic pronouncement.
Jared, we all know we need to be Catholic to be free and totally into the correct way of being,
We do?
but that was a very lame comment for you.
Sorry. Still, in my own defense I will say that I can only work with the material I'm given.
No one has the right to judge the experience of another or how they interpret it.
I disagree. But then I think I probably hold man and his rational faculties in higher esteem than you do. On this point I think you're mistaken, and I would have to align myself with Leonardo.
If a religious experience causes one to dig deeper and see the flaws that lead to it or the problems with the book itself, that is their business.
On the contrary, religious experiences are to be measured against the truth, which can be objectively discerned and ascertained.
If some simply don't know what to think anymore or at this time, that is their business and experience.
But not solely theirs, as if "truth" or "reality" were subdivided into infinite contradiction.
Just because we all sat at one time in the same seats hearing the same things in the same old way and then having to make a decision due to the insanity of religion and organizations, does not mean we'd all come to the same answer for ourselves or become Catholic and then declared ourselves fixed.
No, it certainly doesn't mean that.
By the way, Catholics don't declare themselves "fixed" -- not if they know the first thing about Catholic anthropology and soteriology anyway.
What a cheesy comment from one such as you Jared.
Thanks. I love cheese.
billions, who would define the history and present intellect, rationale and playing catch up with scientific realities by Catholicism as rather flotsamic.
That's hardly surprising -- they know about as much about those things as your typical Armstrongist does.
Though you are certainly entitled to immerse yourself in it as what's true for you.
Not if it's wrong I'm not.
Dennis said: "Big topic but please get over the idea that just because a book says "and God said" there was not a priest behind the curtain."
Great comments Dennis.
Man loves to create their own gods, they have thousands of years of experience at doing that.
The only god I saw in WCG was Herbert. At least United is better in that they had a council of Gods.
Leo:
If you want to ask questions re. why I haven't posted all your comments, you'll need to email me rather than post yet another comment! The email address is in the sidebar.
Jared, QUIT PREACHING! We all want to know what Kieffer did and you're derailing the topic!!
The aftermath of Herbert's kingdom built on sand.
Like a sandcastle built on the edge of the sea, it is relentlessly dissolved by the waves of reality.
Truth overcomes the lies.
Jared, I really don't know who you are, having never heard of you before.
But since a proverb advises me to "answer not a fool according to his folly" I shall take this advice, because your responses above are rants, ill-aimed accusations, not very well-expressed at all, and certainly not deserving of answers. And beside all this, I detect a very strong underlying spirit of unreasoning rage and hostility motivating your words.
I've wasted too much of my time already on raging fundamentalists like you who don't really want a civil and reasonable discussion about these vital issues - they instead just want to preach and harangue, and not have others challenge their supernatural assertions.
Fine. So be it.
But be reminded that just because large portions of humanity appeal to supernatural beliefs, doesn’t make them objectively TRUE. The vast majority of humans through history believed the earth was a flat island-like disc that was circled by the sun, but it wasn’t true in spite of many people believing it.
And with that, I will no more respond to your uncivil verbal vomit.
Gavin, for the past 15 minutes I've been trying to use your sidebar link - but I just can't for the life of me figure out exactly HOW to send you a private email.
The link just takes me out to some other website, and then I'm completely at a loss from there!
Leo, just TYPE the darn thing into your email program. It's set up that way to avoid drive-by email spammers.
Jared,
Just out of curiousity, why would someone align themselves with a church known for crimes against humanity all over the world?
It's not as if you are unaware of all the atrocities committed by the Catholic Church from Constantine down to and including the present day in India and Africa.
By their fruits, Jared, by their fruits.
"You don't know what rationalism is. Evidently you think "rationalism" means "reason." "
Yes, that is what I think, that is what I mean.
"I certainly do not employ rationalism in my daily life."
Yes you do. 99% of your life is lived by rationalism, reason, logic, whatever you would like to call it. However, you chuck it out the door for the other 1%- your imaginary deity.
"Rationalism is a philosophical error, a belief repugnant to human reason -- the opposite ditch of "fideism." "
Okay. You may be right. I didn't even bother looking up "fideism." (I have to admit my lack of interest in philosophical arguments...I prefer things more substantive)
""Jared demonstrates how an intelligent person can go from reasonable to retard in under sixty seconds.'
Nice. But I wouldn't expect anything but logical fallacies and personal insults from someone who doesn't know the difference between ratio and rationalismus."
What logical fallacies??
And you are quite right. I don't know the difference between ratio and rationalismus (is that from Harry Potter?). If I did, would you have taken my criticism to heart?
But, at the end of the day, you believe in an imaginary being; I don't. Unless you have evidence to support your claim, everything else is window dressing.
I've always thought you to be intelligent and insightful (though your particular denomination is way more vile that Armstrongism could hope to be) but you should know that trying to defend the actual existence of your god is impossible. It's a lost cause. There is NO evidence. Go back to inter-denominational apologetics, where your intelligence shines.
The Apostate Paul
"On the contrary, religious experiences are to be measured against the truth, which can be objectively discerned and ascertained."
What "truth?" If you mean reality, then religious experience has been found wanting, time after time.
The Apostate Paul
To my fellow posters:
From time to time we may need to remind ourselves that we are writers submitting our work to an editor for publication. Like any other editor, Gavin is not obligated to publish anything we send in.
Sometimes folk wonder why comments here are moderated. Here's a clue. I've just taken down a comment that was apparently a total fabrication. It seems the purpose was to smear not only Paul Kieffer, but another individual who had nothing to do with the current situation.
I guess this says something about the ethics of those zealots who are trying to bring the COE to heel.
Leonardo's friend asked a good question when he said, "What are we doing wrong? What can we do to revitalize the Work?"
UCG was started by ministers who wanted to keep HWA doctrines in the face of doctrinal change in Worldwide, but they changed the doctrine of government from the top down, that is, one man reporting to Christ and the rest of the Church reporting to that man. Instead, they set up a system of balloting, with the entire ministry holding the power to select their leaders. Perhaps they felt they had no other choice since there was no man with the prestige to be undisputed leader. But there was an alternative then and there is an alternative even now for UCG pastors, and I do not mean joining some other large group.
Some may have figured that one-man governance is dangerous and should be avoided by having the checks and balances that exist in having the leadership responsible to the collective ministry. They may have blamed the changed in Worldwide on one-man rule. But one-man rule was not the cause of the problems in Worldwide. And there are dangers with democracy too.
The fruits of UCG's form of governance over the past decade show the dangers of democracy, and it shows that UCG governance is a democracy, not a "spirit-led consensus." The same kind of politicking and factionalism that exists in American government also seems to exist in UCG governance. That is not the kind of environment that leads to a revitalization of the Work.
When Herbert Armstrong saw that he could not be effective in preaching the gospel while under the control of Church of God Seventh Day authorities, he refused further salary and trusted God for his livelihood, according to his autobiography. For a UCG pastor to do that today would require faith and courage.
Some pastors in UCG may be afraid to be independent, that is, to pastor their congregations independent of an elected body and trust God to provide them with sufficient member tithes from their congregation, and to report hierarchically to Christ until Christ can make it known by the fruits who He has selected to lead the Church. But if the UCG pastors had done that from the beginning, from the time they left Worldwide, by now it would probably be known which UCG pastor has shown the fruits of wisdom, faith, love, and courage required to lead the Church, and who God has blessed with success in doing His work, and the different pastors could have gathered to that man.
I, for one, wanna know which CoG "Preaching the Gospel" belongs to -- as he's espousing "god's government" it probably means he's trying to start his own!!
Post a Comment