tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post97025344095093627..comments2023-11-05T20:19:44.812+13:00Comments on Ambassador Watch: Like sands through the hourglass...Gavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-79963077863265881842009-12-21T03:43:31.507+13:002009-12-21T03:43:31.507+13:00I, for one, wanna know which CoG "Preaching t...I, for one, wanna know which CoG "Preaching the Gospel" belongs to -- as he's espousing "god's government" it probably means he's trying to start his own!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-3912979530038340932009-12-20T15:56:13.324+13:002009-12-20T15:56:13.324+13:00Leonardo's friend asked a good question when h...Leonardo's friend asked a good question when he said, "What are we doing wrong? What can we do to revitalize the Work?" <br /><br />UCG was started by ministers who wanted to keep HWA doctrines in the face of doctrinal change in Worldwide, but they changed the doctrine of government from the top down, that is, one man reporting to Christ and the rest of the Church reporting to that man. Instead, they set up a system of balloting, with the entire ministry holding the power to select their leaders. Perhaps they felt they had no other choice since there was no man with the prestige to be undisputed leader. But there was an alternative then and there is an alternative even now for UCG pastors, and I do not mean joining some other large group.<br /><br />Some may have figured that one-man governance is dangerous and should be avoided by having the checks and balances that exist in having the leadership responsible to the collective ministry. They may have blamed the changed in Worldwide on one-man rule. But one-man rule was not the cause of the problems in Worldwide. And there are dangers with democracy too.<br /><br />The fruits of UCG's form of governance over the past decade show the dangers of democracy, and it shows that UCG governance is a democracy, not a "spirit-led consensus." The same kind of politicking and factionalism that exists in American government also seems to exist in UCG governance. That is not the kind of environment that leads to a revitalization of the Work. <br /><br />When Herbert Armstrong saw that he could not be effective in preaching the gospel while under the control of Church of God Seventh Day authorities, he refused further salary and trusted God for his livelihood, according to his autobiography. For a UCG pastor to do that today would require faith and courage.<br /><br />Some pastors in UCG may be afraid to be independent, that is, to pastor their congregations independent of an elected body and trust God to provide them with sufficient member tithes from their congregation, and to report hierarchically to Christ until Christ can make it known by the fruits who He has selected to lead the Church. But if the UCG pastors had done that from the beginning, from the time they left Worldwide, by now it would probably be known which UCG pastor has shown the fruits of wisdom, faith, love, and courage required to lead the Church, and who God has blessed with success in doing His work, and the different pastors could have gathered to that man.author@ptgbook.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775228362728122027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-90968532283138099992009-12-17T17:09:29.803+13:002009-12-17T17:09:29.803+13:00Sometimes folk wonder why comments here are modera...Sometimes folk wonder why comments here are moderated. Here's a clue. I've just taken down a comment that was apparently a total fabrication. It seems the purpose was to smear not only Paul Kieffer, but another individual who had nothing to do with the current situation.<br /><br />I guess this says something about the ethics of those zealots who are trying to bring the COE to heel.Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-52231551905279438162009-12-16T12:02:56.972+13:002009-12-16T12:02:56.972+13:00To my fellow posters:
From time to time we may ne...To my fellow posters:<br /><br />From time to time we may need to remind ourselves that we are writers submitting our work to an editor for publication. Like any other editor, Gavin is not obligated to publish anything we send in.Retired Profnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-51197340403714616432009-12-16T11:18:27.580+13:002009-12-16T11:18:27.580+13:00"On the contrary, religious experiences are t..."On the contrary, religious experiences are to be measured against the truth, which can be objectively discerned and ascertained."<br /><br />What "truth?" If you mean reality, then religious experience has been found wanting, time after time.<br /><br />The Apostate PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-54400919080999014662009-12-16T11:16:59.446+13:002009-12-16T11:16:59.446+13:00"You don't know what rationalism is. Evid..."You don't know what rationalism is. Evidently you think "rationalism" means "reason." "<br /><br />Yes, that is what I think, that is what I mean. <br /><br /><br />"I certainly do not employ rationalism in my daily life."<br /><br />Yes you do. 99% of your life is lived by rationalism, reason, logic, whatever you would like to call it. However, you chuck it out the door for the other 1%- your imaginary deity.<br /><br />"Rationalism is a philosophical error, a belief repugnant to human reason -- the opposite ditch of "fideism." "<br /><br />Okay. You may be right. I didn't even bother looking up "fideism." (I have to admit my lack of interest in philosophical arguments...I prefer things more substantive)<br /><br />""Jared demonstrates how an intelligent person can go from reasonable to retard in under sixty seconds.'<br /><br />Nice. But I wouldn't expect anything but logical fallacies and personal insults from someone who doesn't know the difference between ratio and rationalismus."<br /><br />What logical fallacies?? <br /><br />And you are quite right. I don't know the difference between ratio and rationalismus (is that from Harry Potter?). If I did, would you have taken my criticism to heart? <br /><br />But, at the end of the day, you believe in an imaginary being; I don't. Unless you have evidence to support your claim, everything else is window dressing. <br /><br />I've always thought you to be intelligent and insightful (though your particular denomination is way more vile that Armstrongism could hope to be) but you should know that trying to defend the actual existence of your god is impossible. It's a lost cause. There is NO evidence. Go back to inter-denominational apologetics, where your intelligence shines. <br /><br />The Apostate PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-74744045021373818092009-12-16T07:00:00.367+13:002009-12-16T07:00:00.367+13:00Jared,
Just out of curiousity, why would someone...Jared, <br /><br />Just out of curiousity, why would someone align themselves with a church known for crimes against humanity all over the world?<br /><br />It's not as if you are unaware of all the atrocities committed by the Catholic Church from Constantine down to and including the present day in India and Africa.<br /><br />By their fruits, Jared, by their fruits.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-19068536962717439912009-12-16T06:53:41.743+13:002009-12-16T06:53:41.743+13:00Leo, just TYPE the darn thing into your email prog...Leo, just TYPE the darn thing into your email program. It's set up that way to avoid drive-by email spammers.Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-63898745156367755182009-12-16T04:55:27.713+13:002009-12-16T04:55:27.713+13:00Gavin, for the past 15 minutes I've been tryin...Gavin, for the past 15 minutes I've been trying to use your sidebar link - but I just can't for the life of me figure out exactly HOW to send you a private email.<br /><br />The link just takes me out to some other website, and then I'm completely at a loss from there!Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-45774054325037211132009-12-16T04:43:12.685+13:002009-12-16T04:43:12.685+13:00Jared, I really don't know who you are, having...Jared, I really don't know who you are, having never heard of you before.<br /><br />But since a proverb advises me to "answer not a fool according to his folly" I shall take this advice, because your responses above are rants, ill-aimed accusations, not very well-expressed at all, and certainly not deserving of answers. And beside all this, I detect a very strong underlying spirit of unreasoning rage and hostility motivating your words.<br /><br />I've wasted too much of my time already on raging fundamentalists like you who don't really want a civil and reasonable discussion about these vital issues - they instead just want to preach and harangue, and not have others challenge their supernatural assertions.<br /><br />Fine. So be it.<br /><br />But be reminded that just because large portions of humanity appeal to supernatural beliefs, doesn’t make them objectively TRUE. The vast majority of humans through history believed the earth was a flat island-like disc that was circled by the sun, but it wasn’t true in spite of many people believing it.<br /><br />And with that, I will no more respond to your uncivil verbal vomit.Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-6291437132387242392009-12-16T01:26:49.196+13:002009-12-16T01:26:49.196+13:00The aftermath of Herbert's kingdom built on sa...The aftermath of Herbert's kingdom built on sand. <br />Like a sandcastle built on the edge of the sea, it is relentlessly dissolved by the waves of reality. <br />Truth overcomes the lies.Sch*ts and splizmsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-69205595702587731292009-12-15T23:21:06.167+13:002009-12-15T23:21:06.167+13:00Jared, QUIT PREACHING! We all want to know what Ki...Jared, QUIT PREACHING! We all want to know what Kieffer did and you're derailing the topic!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-23674787013738511102009-12-15T20:32:19.360+13:002009-12-15T20:32:19.360+13:00Leo:
If you want to ask questions re. why I haven...Leo:<br /><br />If you want to ask questions re. why I haven't posted all your comments, you'll need to email me rather than post yet another comment! The email address is in the sidebar.Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-72522839427134976392009-12-15T18:18:13.454+13:002009-12-15T18:18:13.454+13:00Dennis said: "Big topic but please get over t...Dennis said: "Big topic but please get over the idea that just because a book says "and God said" there was not a priest behind the curtain."<br /><br />Great comments Dennis.<br /><br />Man loves to create their own gods, they have thousands of years of experience at doing that.<br /><br />The only god I saw in WCG was Herbert. At least United is better in that they had a council of Gods.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00022970532446258174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-16724136187491370742009-12-15T17:25:28.030+13:002009-12-15T17:25:28.030+13:00No one has the right to judge the experience of an...<i>No one has the right to judge the experience of another or how they interpret it.</i><br /><br />I disagree. But then I think I probably hold man and his rational faculties in higher esteem than you do. On this point I think you're mistaken, and I would have to align myself with Leonardo.<br /><br /><i>If a religious experience causes one to dig deeper and see the flaws that lead to it or the problems with the book itself, that is their business.</i><br /><br />On the contrary, religious experiences are to be measured against the truth, which can be objectively discerned and ascertained.<br /><br /><i>If some simply don't know what to think anymore or at this time, that is their business and experience.</i><br /><br />But not solely theirs, as if "truth" or "reality" were subdivided into infinite contradiction.<br /><br /><i>Just because we all sat at one time in the same seats hearing the same things in the same old way and then having to make a decision due to the insanity of religion and organizations, does not mean we'd all come to the same answer for ourselves or become Catholic and then declared ourselves fixed.</i><br /><br />No, it certainly doesn't mean that.<br /><br />By the way, Catholics don't declare themselves "fixed" -- not if they know the first thing about Catholic anthropology and soteriology anyway.<br /><br /><i>What a cheesy comment from one such as you Jared.</i><br /><br />Thanks. I love cheese.<br /><br /><i>billions, who would define the history and present intellect, rationale and playing catch up with scientific realities by Catholicism as rather flotsamic.</i><br /><br />That's hardly surprising -- they know about as much about those things as your typical Armstrongist does.<br /><br /><i>Though you are certainly entitled to immerse yourself in it as what's true for you.</i><br /><br />Not if it's wrong I'm not.Jared Olarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-45219382062352368272009-12-15T17:12:27.102+13:002009-12-15T17:12:27.102+13:00That comment sounded more like something Tom Mahon...<i>That comment sounded more like something Tom Mahon would say so I thought maybe "Jared" was really Tom in disguise.</i><br /><br />Really? It was just a reflection of Leonardo's dogmatic pronouncement.<br /><br /><i>Jared, we all know we need to be Catholic to be free and totally into the correct way of being,</i><br /><br />We do?<br /><br /><i>but that was a very lame comment for you.</i><br /><br />Sorry. Still, in my own defense I will say that I can only work with the material I'm given.Jared Olarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-81934994493493969462009-12-15T17:09:23.603+13:002009-12-15T17:09:23.603+13:00Yet another virtually meaningless "Preach and...<i>Yet another virtually meaningless "Preach and run" blog comment, I see!</i><br /><br />Ha. "Virtually meaningless" is another way of saying "Not meaningless."<br /><br />Inasmuch as facing reality is common to all men, it's not at all apparent how you will be able to substantiate your little pat-on-your-own-back assertion that "facing reality is the hardest thing for religiously-inclined people to do."<br /><br />And that's leaving aside the little detail that humans are by nature religiously inclined.<br /><br /><i>I've known many atheists, agnostics and True Believers in my years, and with respect to the ability of each of these groups to effectively deal with the real-world, the supernatural believers are, hands-down, by far the LEAST equipped to live successful lives in the everyday world of objective reality.</i><br /><br />You're talking about your own limited experience and expecting us to believe that it applies not just to the few hundred people you know with any degree of true familiarity, but to every single one of the billions and billions of souls who are or have been religiously inclined.<br /><br /><i>Just reading their many comments here on AW shows us how shallow, irrational and anti-life these folks can be.</i><br /><br />Again you expect us to agree with conclusions you extrapolate from the decidedly unrepresentative sample of AW commenters, a population probably well under 200.<br /><br />For someone who prides himself on depending on and relying upon reason, empirical fact, and objective reality, you don't seem to be reasoning very logically or arguing very scientifically.<br /><br /><i>No, I won't deal with your subjective "reality"</i><br /><br />Ah, there's that word again. "Reality." I'm think, however, that I'm not far off in surmising that when you say, "Facing reality is the hardest thing for religiously-inclined people to do," what you really mean is, "I think I'm right and those who disagree with me are wrong."<br /><br />Welcome to the club.<br /><br /><i>I lived in that make-believe world for 30 years, and now I live in the real world of objective facts</i><br /><br />Or so you assure yourself. Seems to me that you're just a different kind of True Believer, though.Jared Olarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-15498387242219713282009-12-15T15:47:18.639+13:002009-12-15T15:47:18.639+13:00One will have to wonder who Jim Franks, David Buch...One will have to wonder who Jim Franks, David Buchanan, Clyde Kilough will target next since they succeeded finishing off Paul Kieffer. I wonder if Larry Salyer and Joel Meeker had anything to do with this as well? <br /><br />Nice job guys; now that your guy, David Baker, will replace Paul Kieffer. How long did it take for you to plan this evil deed out? Shall we call this mission accomplished?<br /><br />Be sure you don't cross those boys, or hinder their plans, or your past sins will be brought out in public. Christ like; isn't it?<br /><br />I would fear to walk in your shoes as God see's all!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-34792944201760836832009-12-15T15:35:16.972+13:002009-12-15T15:35:16.972+13:00And what reality aren't the atheists and agnos...<i>And what reality aren't the atheists and agnostics facing???</i><br /><br />God's existence and attributes.<br /><br /><i>Do you have new Insider Info??</i><br /><br />No.<br /><br /><i>If you think rationalism is nothing more than flotsam, then why do you employ it in your daily life?</i><br /><br />You don't know what rationalism is. Evidently you think "rationalism" means "reason." I certainly do not employ rationalism in my daily life. Rationalism is a philosophical error, a belief repugnant to human reason -- the opposite ditch of "fideism." <br /><br /><i>Jared demonstrates how an intelligent person can go from reasonable to retard in under sixty seconds.</i><br /><br />Nice. But I wouldn't expect anything but logical fallacies and personal insults from someone who doesn't know the difference between <i>ratio</i> and <i>rationalismus</i>.Jared Olarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-43060350012015404112009-12-15T13:47:11.854+13:002009-12-15T13:47:11.854+13:00What appears to be the official UCG statement is n...What appears to be the official UCG statement is now posted on Mike Bennett's blog:<br /><br />http://ucgmikebennett.wordpress.com/2009/12/14/baker-replaces-kieffer-on-ucg-council/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-16375831527693827812009-12-15T10:13:01.300+13:002009-12-15T10:13:01.300+13:00"So far the UCG Germany web site and blog kep...<em>"So far the <strong>UCG Germany</strong> web site and blog kept by Paul Keiffer is silent about this.<br /><br />That web site shows <strong>he's still on the German Board</strong> of Directors."</em><br /><br />Oh. The GERMANS. OOOOOHHH now it's all starting to make sense.<br /><br />I still want to know what the "events that allegedly occurred many years previously in WCG" were.<br /><br />Does anyone have any idea what that means?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-18344462525244543902009-12-15T09:42:12.854+13:002009-12-15T09:42:12.854+13:00OK, I'm in the dark here. What could this man...OK, I'm in the dark here. What could this man possibly have done while in WCG that would get him into trouble these many years later with UCG? And if it was so awful, what took UCG so long?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-26770293521301152512009-12-15T07:38:25.707+13:002009-12-15T07:38:25.707+13:00What transgression did Kieffer commit that has to ...What transgression did Kieffer commit that has to be a problem now that over a decade has passed?<br /><br />The transgressions of HWA are taboo for discussion. The hirelings we have had at UCG never are clear about anything snless they are hinting for money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-66903799980694767252009-12-15T06:54:52.934+13:002009-12-15T06:54:52.934+13:00Jared Olar said...
It's also the hardest thin...<b>Jared Olar said... <br />It's also the hardest thing for atheists and agnostics to do.</b><br /><br />Now, now Jared, there's that unrealistic Catholicism shining through again. Since reality simply translates to "The state of things as they actually exist", it's a very slippery slope for any person who relies on "faith" for their belief system, to claim what is and isn't real.<br /><br />I did a Google search on "Church of Insufficient Data" but I didn't get any hits. That would be the real True Church.Baywolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04211521337249018038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-2568137853665792842009-12-15T05:42:42.416+13:002009-12-15T05:42:42.416+13:00So far the UCG Germany web site and blog kept by P...So far <a href="http://www.ucog.org" rel="nofollow">the UCG Germany web site and blog</a> kept by Paul Keiffer is silent about this.<br /><br />That web site shows he's still on the German Board of Directors.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11058030312904622191noreply@blogger.com