Just a few hours ago Bob had this to say on his website:
...I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary and other schools. A doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.) degree was earned from the Union Institute and University where I studied various biological sciences and research methodologies. I also have other degrees/training, and have studied theology, both formally and informally.
Now there's a new, edited version:
...I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary and other schools in and out of the USA like T of CU, where a Th.D. in Early Christianity was earned). A doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.) degree was earned from the Union Institute and University where I studied various biological sciences and research methodologies. I also have other degrees/training, and have studied theology, both formally and informally.
Uh... T of CU? Anyone have any idea what this means? TCU seems to know nothing about Bob (see previous posts.) And, accepting what Bob now says on face value, fancy him forgetting to mention his excellent doctorate in theology till now...
35 comments:
Gavin, I’m confused here.
So what about Bob's new on-line version of his so-called academic credentials?
The new edited version is just as confusing and obscure as the original as far as I can tell.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but such continued vagueness has all the characteristics of a con having been caught.
Thiel obviously is either watching this site, or has folks who do it for him. In any event, he's scrambling. I wonder if that was why his nutrition website was down earlier today?
The obvious and honorable solution to the quandary – that is, if the good “Dr.” Thiel truly has nothing to hide? He can simply provide a specific and precisely written curriculum vitae, and publically post it. Period. Anything less than this is deception in it’s most obvious colors.
You too, Larry – please provide a curriculum vitae that we can verify.
I'm trying very hard not to say that I think Bob is misrepresenting his credentials. In the meantime I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, though it's hard to imagine how that could be so. ThDs don't just appear out of thin air.
And can I add, as someone who holds down a full-time job, runs this blog, and is pursuing study toward a very modest BTheol, that anyone who makes up an unearned qualification out of sheer vanity is pretty much the lowest of the low. The time commitment, the expenses in course fees and texts, the sacrifices you have to make - all count for nothing when some con artist makes claims to qualifications they have no right to. Bogus qualifications are an insult to all those who have to earn them at personal cost.
Again, I'm not accusing Bob of lying, but if he wants to be taken seriously in his claim he is going to have to front up. This issue will not go away.
Sorry Leonardo,
I maintain my anonymity for very good reasons. I have actually already given you more information than I should have. I am too well known in certain circles. My posts on this board are merely a diversion, and that is one of the reasons I do not engage with you in long drawn-out debates (like Byker Bob). I don't have the time or the inclination.
Baiting me is also not going to be productive. I am not that vain about my accomplishments, which stand on their own merits.
For some reason though, you do seem to dislike my writing skills.(?) I cannot recall anyone else ever complaining about them. So, if all of this frustrates you, I am sympathetic, but not very.
Christianity 101. The job description entails being treated unjustly, ridiculed, harassed, persecuted, being falsely accused, lied about, and possibly even martyred. I knew this when I signed on. Your "snide remarks" and occasional jabs don't affect me.
And, my posts are not necessarily meant for YOU, anyway. But this one is.
I don't know about all these degrees from Satan's Colleges.
Everyone knows that if you really want to understand the Bible, you have to graduate from Ambassador College!
Will the industrious Dr. Thiel ever stop and rest? Click on the link to see what else he has been up to...
http://www.thiel.edu/academics/index.htm
KMS
Maybe Th.D. means Doctor of Thielology.
As for myself, I have a BA in Theo from AC and also AU where I also am affiliated with Azusa Something or other. These are all in Southern California where, as you know, Fuller Seminary where I used to go and read in the library AND Disneyland are located.
My school has sister campuses in Oklahoma and a new one is reported to being built in Wadsworth Ohio which will truly be spectacular. I have studied in many denominations such as WCG, WCGracie, PCG, RCG, LCG, and under the professorships of Apostle David C Pack, Apostle William Dankenbring, Apostle Gerald Flurry, Witness One Ron Weinland (But not Witness Two...I have never heard her lecture). I have hundreds of graduate hours under Presiding Evangelists and Dr. God Put Me in Charge.
Aside from all this, I have read many booklets written at the seventh grade level for clarity.
My credentials are all hand signed by Herbert W Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong and David Antion declaring me a minister which traces its roots all the way back to the first century. So who's your daddy huh?
After decades of intense study, I now treat injuries, aches and pains with therapeutic massage and have finally succeeded in rubbing some people the right way for a change.
Please send for my new booklets entitled.
"Naked People Are More Honest"
"Creame or Oil? Which?"
"The Plain Truth About Lavender and Ylang lang"
"Just What Do You Mean 'Turn over?'"
"Joe Was Wrong...So Far I Don't Have to Work at Walmart. So far..."
"The Plain Truth on 'Hell NO I Don't Want to Start My Own Church'"
"But If You Get Ten Tithers You Win."
"Did God Create the Navel?"
"Ativan..God's Gift to Humankind."
and
"Paulie Come Lately..The man who lived in Jesus town, belonged to Jesus persecuters, never is mentioned in the Gospels, never met Jesus, never quotes Jesus, learned nothing from Jesus disciples, was forsaken by all in Asia, and gets to write most of the New Testament."
In my next life my preferred credentials will be:
Dr. Dennis C Diehl Paleontologist, Institute for Human Origins
University of Pennsylvania
Discoverer of the first mumified Neanderthal in the melt margins of European Alpine Glaciers.
amen....and aaaaaaamen...(They say that alot around here on the radio when they finish sermons.)
Off to push some tissue around......prey for me.
Never mind Thiel; slippery 3-fer-one-Jebus Ted is closing up shop too:
http://thesurprisinggodblog.wcg.org/2009/09/announcing-trinitarian-worship-blog.html
One has to wonder if deleting all the comments, and searching through the dross to find the other brainwashed yes-ministers, was taxing poor Teddy's patience.
Gavin wrote:
"I'm trying very hard not to say that I think Bob is misrepresenting his credentials. In the meantime I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt..."
Gavin, I fully understand that your motives here are completely honorable - but I don't think anyone has to accuse Thiel of anything, as his very own words indict him more than anything we could ever say, and speaks volumes as to either his verbal incompetence or outright deceptiveness, whichever one is primarily in play here.
Those who have clearly endured through the monumental efforts required to earn doctoral degrees deserve the title of "Doctor of Philosophy." But they also have the duty to clearly specify the exact titles of their degrees, what specific institutions they were awarded from, and where such institutions are located.
If legitimate academic credentials are properly earned from legitimate institutions, then what is there to hide?
Only those with a hidden or deceptive agenda resort to throwing up a verbal smokescreen and make it difficult for others to verify their credentials. They realize that the gullible folks reading their books and articles will not attempt to verify claimed degrees. But some do, like potential employers, or folks like us who have every reason to realistically doubt that at least some of Thiel’s claimed credentials are actually legitimate.
Further, at least in America, it is widely known that there exist institutions commonly referred to as "diploma mills" - which award highly dubious academic credentials and churn out “graduates” like a bakery churns out doughnuts. This is becoming endemic in certain fields, like nutrition and alternative medicine.
Also, given the fact that numerous authors, most especially in the field of fundamentalist religion, are known far and wide for misrepresenting their academic credentials, I think we have every right to settle this once and for all.
For example, Dr. Kent Hovind is an ardent anti-evolutionist who has a doctoral degree - but it's not even remotely related to the field he now earns a good living from, which is the pushing of his disingenuous anti-scientific drivel to fundamentalists who are looking for reasons to doubt the many evidences that have been accumulated by real scientists in support of both minor and macro evolution. I think his actual degree is in Christian Education from Patriot University – which essentially means he has a doctorate in Christian evangelism from a diploma mill. He has no actual credentials whatsoever in archeology, paleontology, zoology, biology, geology, astronomy, astrophysics, or any other scientific field directly related to the things he primarily writes about. And many of his readers sincerely believe he is a real scientist because he adds the title “Dr.” in front of his name. I've actually encountered this in on-line debates other than this website.
And so I think we have every right to ask Thiel to make public - in clearly legible, understandable and verifiable form - his so-called credentials.
HOW am I being unfair in making this simple request?
I mean, this guy has claimed, to my knowledge based upon reading his bio at COG Writer, to have at least two doctoral degrees: one PhD in “various biological sciences and research methodologies” (now what in Hades does THAT ACTUALLY MEAN?) and a ThD in Early Christianity from “T of CU” (what or where is T of CU?).
All I'm trying to point out is that this is simply NOT the typical modus operandi of a legitimate scholar to be so unclear and duplicitous in publically stating his credentials.
Society always seems to want to intervene and somehow protect these hucksters of religious faith, no matter how deceptive they’ve actually been proven to be. I’m not saying this case is over and done – as perhaps all Thiel’s claimed degrees truly are legitimate – but I think it tells us something about the man (as well as the ideology he so ardently pushes) by how difficult he makes it to verify whether this is so or not.
nice response to leonardo, larry. he was totally trying to bait you in something.
um yeah not cool.
on the bob front, he is a very proud man. and to be recognized in certain circles (the morally elite or as i call them the a$$holes) i think he fudged the facts some and he didnt expect so much pressure/verification from the outside. (which is surprising because when you sling so much insults around, supposedly someone will come knocking at your door).
oh well, such is life.
Larry wrote:
“I maintain my anonymity for very good reasons. I have actually already given you more information than I should have. I am too well known in certain circles. My posts on this board are merely a diversion, and that is one of the reasons I do not engage with you in long drawn-out debates (like Byker Bob). I don't have the time or the inclination.”
Right Larry. Do you know how many times I have been given some version of that lame excuse in the past by various Christian “intellectuals” trying to avoid being up front and honest with me in debate? More than I can count.
Maintaining anonymity can be a good thing – I use a pseudonym here - but what I always find amazing about you is how blatantly inarticulate your typical comments are. This is generally NOT the case with folks of such education that you claim to possess, especially a scientist.
And Larry, you and I (and many other readers) both know that the reason you constantly shy away from directly addressing the many questions and comments I direct at you is not because of lack of time nor inclination (although the latter is painfully obvious), but rather because deep-down you know there is no intelligible defense you can muster in support of your supernaturalism, except to resort to the pathetic “preach and run” sloganeering you and Byker Bob are so well-known for. So let’s stop kidding ourselves here, eh, Larry?
Larry further writes:
“Baiting me is also not going to be productive.”
How am I “baiting” you by asking penetrating questions with respect to your cherished ideology? You are just like Byker Bob in this respect – when you are simply unable to articulate an intelligible answer or provide a line of logical and detailed reasoning in defense of your supernaturalism, you then start accusing me of having bad motives.
But what you seem to fail to realize is that this is a standard and commonly-employed fundamentalist tactic – they will resort to anything in the attempt to cowardly AVOID having to make their case publically and with any kind of verbal precision. Instead, they start accusing the unbelievers of all kinds of motives and underlying psychological problems.
And you claim to be a PhD scientist from a world-class university? Right Larry, and I’m actually the reincarnation of Napoleon!
Larry further writes:
“For some reason though, you do seem to dislike my writing skills.(?) I cannot recall anyone else ever complaining about them. So, if all of this frustrates you, I am sympathetic, but not very.”
My assertion is that you avoid actual “give and take” intelligent dialog by churning out quickly-written comments that never seem to DIRECTLY address the various issues that arise. This is most definitely NOT the mark of an intellect claiming to be a “scientist with a PhD from a world-class university” – nor how such a one makes his written points to others, especially in a public forum such as this.
And just so you know, I’m not the least interested in garnering your sympathy – however, I do look for precise intelligibility, especially given your claim to be a scientist and all that. But thus far you have consistently failed to provide anything that can remotely be considered an intelligent or precisely-stated reply about any subject that has ever arisen here.
And for those interested in more information about "Dr." Kent Hovind's academic credentials here's a couple of links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Patriot_Bible_University
http://www.patriotuniversity.com
/PriceOfTruth.htm
Of special interest is the second link above defending Hovind - read it for yourself and decide! Whether the pictures are hoaxes or not, I live in Colorado and can easily drive over to Patriot Bible University, located in a part of the state that is home to many fundamentalist groups, and verify one way or the other.
(If these links don't fit into the margins here and are unusable, just Google "Patriot University" and click on the first few links that come up.)
And Gavin is correct - this issue ISN'T going to go away.
"Nothing is more sacred than the FACTS." Sam Harris
Oh, and by the way, for an aerial view of "Dr." Kent Hovind's world-renowned alma mater, Patriot University, now known as Patriot Bible University, just go to:
http://maps.google.com/maps
..and then in the entry field type the words: "Patriot University loc: Del Norte, CO"
...then click on the "satellite" tab, and zoom in on the left-hand margin (if necessary) to see the grounds of the prestigious campus located in Del Norte, Colorado.
And THIS is where "Dr." Kent Hovind received his academic credentials from.
The Wikipedia article on Patriot University says:
"Various criticisms have been made of Hovind's dissertation, including charges of incompleteness, low academic quality, poor writing, poor spelling, and ungrammatical style. The lack of quality was described, in part, by the fact that ‘the pages are not numbered; there is no title; of sixteen or so chapters in the index only the first four are finished; misspellings are rampant ("Immerged" for emerged and "epic" for epoch are two examples); and the single illustration was apparently cut out of a science book with scissors and fastened to the thesis with glue or tape."
Interesting to note that Hovind's "research" has much in common with Bob Thiel's work – unorthodoxed grammar, poor spelling, low quality of written expression, etc.
Again, I rest my case with respect to Hovind.
But remember, he's just one of MANY fundamentalists who have had to resort to this kind of "education."
And then Larry wonders why I'm skeptical about his much-touted academic claims!
I think it's also interesting how all these supernatural fundamentalists who ardently CLAIM to have legitimate PhD degrees seem remarkably unable to express themselves in writing at no more higher a level than a 5th or 6th grader - even though the grammatical standards required to finish a doctoral dissertation are meticulously high.
Just something to think about.
Here's something for Larry-
I saw a package deal of Ambassador College and Imperial Schools items on ebay for only a buck. The AC t-shirt should be a hit at Church activities, and the Imperial Schools gym bag will be a hit with your racquetball buddies.
Here it is.
Surely T of CU must be Tertullian of Carthage University.
It is impossible to read about Tertullian or Montanus without seeing parallels with Armstrong and Meredith, especially in their narcissism and rigorous demands on their followers. Plus, in his latter years, Tertullian vigorously attacked Catholicism. What a role model for Bob!
Dr. Bob says he studied at schools like the T of CU, the key word being "like" as in "similar to." He also says where a degree was earned, not necessarily by him, but at least once, by someone.
I think you are full of it, Larry.
I have actually already given you more information than I should have. I am too well known in certain circles.
Are you saying that your messages on AW are unlawful and taboo to your "circles" somewhere?
I have no doubt that you are "well known" - somewhere, and that probably really is the reason for your "anonymity".
Did you even graduate high school? For some reason I seriously doubt it. I heard that you had a GED, don't know, just what I was told.
None of you religious types would ever fail to show their credentials, much less keep them a secret. It's just not in your boastful natures.
I really think your problem is that you are not supposed to be commenting on AW. You naughty boy.
"T of CU"? If CU stands for Christian University, what could T possibly stand for and require an "of" in the initials?
Strange, very strange.
Larry, you do not maintain your anonymity. You gave it up when you posted to my blog months ago. I know who you are, where you live (in generalities), and some stuff about you.
Gavin can similarly, and easily, find out who you are.
I haven't posted that out of respect for you, which is more respect than you've shown anyone else who doesn't believe as you do.
Dear Bob
We know you have heard of this thread.
What does T of CU mean?
Thank you
Jesus Christ was the most articulate and intelligent person ever to walk the face of the earth. And, He told us that He could only reach the ones the Father gave to Him.
This articulateness issue has been used by any number of posters to sideline or discourage regular participants who tend to make some uncomfortable, or hold an opposing viewpoint. I believe that the first one I ever noticed utilize such a technique here was the inimitable Tom Mahon.
But, alas, it's a false issue. My question for those raising it would be, "If I were more articulate, would it cause you to ask God to walk with you, or to surrender to Jesus Christ?" I didn't think so.....
BB
Russell, I think you must have me confused with someone else. There is somebody else who occasionally posts here and elsewhere as "Larry", but it isn't me.
Byker Bob said...
But, alas, it's a false issue. My question for those raising it would be, "If I were more articulate, would it cause you to ask God to walk with you, or to surrender to Jesus Christ?" I didn't think so.....
Is it a false issue? I don't think so. If you are going to preach it, you should be able to explain it and not just leave it up in the air. And, why ask a question like that if you are just going to answer it yourself in the next breath?
The problem is, Bob, that you never get around to showing any evidence in support of your assertions. Until you do, you can't possibly know what the answer to your rhetorical question really is.
All anyone has to do is go back in history to see that the Christian faith is based upon forcing people to believe it or die. There never has been any answers to the opposition except the torture chambers and murder.
Yet, you want to be in that company and identified with them. Okay by me but your opposition is not interested in that BS anymore. The opposition wants you to intelligently answer the questions put to you. Why do you avoid answering those questions?
We know why, don't we Bob?
These are not rhetorical questions, we really want to know.
Toronto of Canada University
Byker Bob, this topic is about the legitimacy of Bob Thiel's claimed academic credentials - so would it be possible for you to please stop your incessant preaching and monotonous religious sloganeering, and stick to the topic at hand, at least just this one time?
Anonymous 12:40, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are serious here, so I checked the name of all colleges and universities in Canada...
http://uwaterloo.ca/canu/
index.php
...and there is no such institution as Toronto of Canada University (T of CU).
But if you were only trying to stir the pot here, is your life so empty that you truly have nothing more constructive to do with your time?
An excellent suggestion Leo - for all concerned. Only relevant posts will now appear on this thread.
"Everyone knows that if you really want to understand the Bible, you have to graduate from Ambassador College!"
Being one who actually has a degree in theology from Ambassador, I would like to relate that the proper methods of biblical scholarship were not taught, but all the methods of deception were taught and practiced.
No wonder HWA shut down the Systematic Theology Project. The risk was too great if those participating were to stray into the proper methods of scholarship.
I know of one person whose family was quite prominent who upon graduation was sent off to one of the real schools in order to be better qualified to teach theology, only for that one to leave the church as a result of learning said proper methods of learning and scholarship.
A degree in anything doesn't guarantee a proper knowledge of the subject, especially when it comes to religion where 2 + 2 seems to rarely come out as 4.
"Jesus Christ was the most articulate and intelligent person ever to walk the face of the earth."
Unprovable, highly unlikely, and patently absurd. Assuming he even existed at all.
Oh, and off topic.
There is.......
Texas Christian University
http://www.tcu.edu/
Anoneemoose
Den offers,
"Please send for my new booklets entitled.
"Naked People Are More Honest"
Please rush me a copy
forthwith.
Also I am wondering, if
there is anything to the concept of reincarnation
and repayment of karmic
debt, what will Herbert
be doing next time around?
He might be a very busy bugger!
ConnedNoMore
ConnedNoMore said...
Den offers,
"Please send for my new booklets entitled.
"Naked People Are More Honest"
Please rush me a copy
forthwith.
Unfortunatley I can barely cover production of "Naked People Are More Honest." No ifs, ands or butts...it difficult to print in the Bible Belt. I know you barely believe me, but I barely believe myself at times so it's all good.
You will receive the first copy however so I know that's good nudes for you....
"...one PhD in “various biological sciences and research methodologies”"
Sounds like Larry's PhD.
The Apostate Paul
Bill wrote:
"A degree in anything doesn't guarantee a proper knowledge of the subject, especially when it comes to religion where 2 + 2 seems to rarely come out as 4."
Bill, I agree with you 100% here.
The issue we are having with Bob Thiel is NOT really whether all the "alphabet soup" he tends to confuse us with in the bio section on his COG Writer website (ThD presumably from T of CU, PhD from UIU, etc.) lends any credence whatsoever to his many supernatural assertions, such as he attempts to persuade others of in his recent book and videos on Mayan prophecies, etc.
The core point is WHY are his claims to various academic degrees listed there (especially the two claimed doctorates, Thd and PhD) so imprecisely written and so incredibly ambiguous in such a way that it is extremely difficult if not impossible for anyone to actually verify whether his claims are legitimate or not?
What is he trying to accomplish from this tactic?
Is it just muddle-headedness on his part? Is it perhaps nothing more than poor command of the English language? Though he seems articulate enough on his YouTube video, so I think we can safely rule out these last two excuses.
In my studies I run into this situation very often – exaggerated claims to knowledge and academic qualifications – mostly (maybe 95% of the time) by those who, in the final analysis, are pushing fundamentalist propaganda and attempting to dress it up in the language of academia and/or science in order to make it more palatable to readers.
This is blatant and unambiguous deception on the part of these many authors!
And I just cannot understand that if Bob is truly “on the level” here, then why is he continually so evasive when it comes to plainly stating his exact degree titles and precisely what educational institutions they were earned from.
Is that too much to ask?
With a poor economy the various parasitically incorrect cog's have found an outlet to try and survive in hard economical times. FEAR!
Post a Comment