Saturday, 6 September 2008

Wonderful World Ahead?

Few WCG publications have had the torturous history that The Wonderful World Tomorrow: What It Will Be Like has had.

The first edition came out in 1966 at just under a hundred pages, co-authored by Herbert and Ted Armstrong. It was to gain infamy from its opening paragraph:

Where will YOU be, ten years from now? You can know what is going to happen. In this booklet you are going to take an astonished glimpse into this world as it will be - in just ten or fifteen short years.

Of course, fifteen years later it was 1981. Whoops.

There was a revised edition in 1973 (shown in the photograph above), but the next hard copy I have in my files is from 1979, published in hardback by the church imprint Everest House. The title has been slightly altered: Tomorrow... What It Will Be Like. By this time Ted had been expunged - the "cultural revolution" of 1978 had broken over the church like Hurricane Katrina, leaving one senile, unpredictable, imperious megalomaniac as supreme figurehead. Herbert's name now stands alone. This was the version that appeared in US bookstores, destined to lie in unsold heaps, little more than a "vanity publication."

By 1982 the WCG was reissuing it "... not to be sold. It is a free educational service in the public interest..." Educational? In the public interest? Do tell... The text is virtually identical with the Everest House edition, but the title has been restored to its original form.

I have no idea whether it made it off the presses again before Armstrong's death. PCG undoubtably now owns the rights to this "masterpiece."

But fear not little flock, if you missed out on the earlier versions, and can't stomach the thought of crawling to Gerry for a copy, you can secure an "almost the same thing" genuine imitation. Earlier this year LCG released a colorful 35 page clone entitled The World Ahead: What It Will Be Like, authored by none other than your favorite "leading evangelist" and mine, Roderick C. Meredith. While the word "joy" isn't the first one I associate with Rod and his "three to five years" gospel, it figures prominently in the sub-heads: "JOY Under God's Government" (arbeit macht frei?) and "Teachers of JOY!"

I guess you could call it the Ren and Stimpy "Happy happy joy joy" rewrite.

45 comments:

lnrd said...

#1 precious memories.

larry said...

Gavin, it is not too difficult to figure out what you think of the late HWA. Not everyone agrees with you, by the way.

Let me make a suggestion for a future topic. Have you ever wondered what current WCG members truly think about the various "splinter groups" and those like you, who have left?
You might ask? I doubt that I am the only WCG member who reads or posts here. Don't know. Maybe I am.

Anonymous said...

I remember years ago in the late 1970's Gerald Waterhouse mentioning in a sermon that this World Tomorrow booklet was actually based on a paper he wrote called God's Master Plan. Apparently Garner Ted got hold of Gerald's paper and - in true Armstrong fashion - added a few of his own unique flourishes and then had it published under his (GTA's) and HWA's name.

Ah, is there anything new under the sun?

Burgers said...

"Ah, is there anything new under the sun?"

When it comes to the non-stop flow of criticism people continually heap upon individuals and decisions from decades ago -- no, there is not.

Anonymous said...

Noticing the publication reference was WA my first thought was not Joy but "being hit on the head lessons". ["Say wa! wa!"]

The 1966 booklet was amongst the first publications I received. It's no surprise that it inspired both Spanky and Dave in their rewrites, including the speculation on those who will fill the key positions in the hierarchical structure to come.

Anon 1:21, the note about Gerald Waterhouse is interesting. I remember a church member mentioning that it was speculated "the Armstrongs" would be put in charge of education. I can imagine GW putting that in his paper. Of course HWA wouldn't say that to the general public -- and perhaps he had a higher office in mind.

Anonymous said...

Burgers, when you make yourself a target, expect a few shots.

Marketing companies charge corporations millions for product feedback found on this blog. Field testing on loyal members is like preaching to the choir.

Mel said...

Just guessing...

Is Larry a Burger?
Does he relish that?
Can he ketchup with Tkatch's motives?
Must tards be in that church?
Is his bun getting burned?
Or, has the church always been cheesy?
Will the leadership lettuce be frank?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0_3RcgBFyo said...

looking back.

to the future.

Dennis Diehl said...

The idea that old time Bible guys, were qualified to be in charge of World Tomorrow projects were always rather Sunday Schoolish in nature. Grown "theologians" speculating on such foolishness is and was amazing.

Another problem is that many of the OTBG's may never have existed in fact. It's difficult to get a mythological character to show up at a board meeting, much less a resurrection.

I suppose Lot could be in charge of how to offer your daughters to a crowd of gay men (they weren't really) "to do with as you please," and hide your sons. He probably could also be in charge of how to control a hysterical, angry, mother by finally turning her to salt. I don't know.

Abraham could be in charge of explaining to Paul how impossible it would be for the Father of Circumcism to become the Father of the Uncircumcised.

Paul could be in charge of explaining to us all why all Asia forsook him and how he still ended up right. May as well throw in a seminar on he got to write most of the NT but never met or quotes Jesus.

Paul might also be in charge of childrearing, marriage relationship, any relationships really and women's roles, since he seemed to know all about how these things work, being single and unmarriageable.

Updating the group...

Gerald Waterhouse, now deceased, can be in charge of the Feast of Unleavened Bunns.

HWA can be in charge of the Two Trees until he gets the story of El and the Elohim right.

Ted Armstrong can be in charge of not wanting to be in charge. I think he just wanted to be left alone in life and got stuck doing dad's work.

While not yet deceased, but vying for the positions,

Tom Mahon and Ron Weinland can be in charge of issuing death threats and wishes upon those who don't filter the truth in just the right way, in Jesus name. The corpses of the cursed can be burned on TV at Mizpeh and Shiloh.

Dave Pack can be in charge of how to use the biggest most incredible words in the English language to describe nothing much.

Dr. Thiel can be in charge of reminding us all that "sady and of course,..." everyone is wrong.

Mrs Weinland will be in charge of the Witness Protection Program in the Wonderful World Tomorrow.

Gavin will be n charge of theological musings and repair of wounded souls.

Shadows,Flavor Aid and Weinland Watch will be in charge of watching all the hens in the hen house.

I will assist in the search for a frozen Neanderthal family as the glaciers melt, the results of which I will be asked to give as a Bible study on Genesis. Using further evidence of Neanderthal finds in Mt Carmel and environs, we will ask what did Jesus know about human origins and when did he know it?

All and all, there is place for all of us and being in charge is what it's all about.

One problem to be surmounted will be "let every man esteem others better than himself," as Paul ordered. We will have to asertain that if we ALL do this, what does everyone else do?

Anonymous said...

The "Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy!" song on the YouTube link reminded me of the many artificially "happy" (yet obviously phony) songleaders that attempted to get festivities rolling every morning at the Feast of Tabernacles during classic WCG days - with their continually-recycling litany of canned clichés such as "Well, Brethren, we're all having such a wonderful time at God's Feast of Tabernacles, aren't we? And it's plain that this is truly the BEST FEAST EVER - so let's pick up our hymnals and turn to page..."

If I've heard some variation of this once I've heard it a hundred times through the years.

Too bad this corny cartoon song wasn't around yet in those days - as the Church could have repeated it every morning at FOT services to wake us up and get us"in the spirit!"

Anonymous said...

May I suggest some additional reading...

"Jerusalem Count Down" by Pastor Hagee. It is available on
http://www.jhm.org/ME2/Default.asp

Or possibly we could read some good Pentecostal literature, the kind Sarah Palin would endorse

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/06/us/politics/06church.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1220719396-mSamSGnJKBWr+KC1rq9XGQ

Certainly Evangelicals and Pentecostals have it right even though the Churches of God have gotten it wrong at times.

Listen to Sarah telling us that the War in Iraq is God's plan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H-btXPfhGs

Since Sarah has Christianity right and the Churches of God had it wrong we are in good hands...

Robert said...

>>I doubt that I am the only WCG member who reads or posts here.

We can never go back to the way the WCG was under HWA, because it was a mixture of truth and some glaring errors.

In my opinion, HWA, did not take us out of "babylon" far enough, he did not restore the Jewishness of the Gospel and disregarded many of the laws of the Torah. There are 613 in total and we generally only observed about 4-5 of these. Armstrongism is in crisis because it failed to restore first century worship. Armstrongism believes in Christianity whereas the religion of Jesus and His followers was and still is Judaism! The WCG today is in apostasy, and is very "anti-Semitic" forcing congregations to abandon Saturday worship for Sunday. They now belittle anyone who keeps the law.

The same abusive dynamics is in place in the WCG leadership--unfortunately most believe the lie, that the WCG is now a reformed orthodox church. It is a dysfunctional organisation and always will be. There was more openness during the Armstrong years than there is today under Tkach. The Tkach administration do not study into anything, even if challenged, they send you a well rehearsed script that conforms to the "Evangelical Alliance" so as not to loose their membership! At least during the HWA days, things were looked into (at least during the early days anyway).

This year, the non postponement dates for God's festivals are during September. Whereas, the Hebrew calendar places them in October. HWA continued with the Hebrew calendar however the rules of postponements are not binding on Messianic believers or Sabbatarians (unless we accept the authority of the Pharisees: "The scribes and Pharisees seat in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you, do observe, that observe and do" (Matt 23:2-3).

I have yet to study into Matthew 23:2-3 and therefore have not reached a conclusive opinion on the matter.

The HWA years were a stepping stone, at least for me, but I have to move forward now, into all truth.

Corky said...

Hey, does anyone remember the 1988 scare? That was one 40 year generation from 1948 when Israel became a nation again.

Then there was the 2520 years from the destruction of the temple by Nebuchadnezzar (1996, in case you missed it).

Now it's what? 2012? (not counting the recent puke about 2008).

Wake up everyone, Jesus' return was "shortly" 2,000 years ago and in case no one has noticed he delays his return - drastically!

It's almost as if he is never, ever going to put in an appearance at all, isn't it?

That's the way it is in the magic world of invisibility and imaginary spirits. There is nothing that is quite real about it all, is there? - except . . .

Except the vast amount of money that can be made by perpetuating the meme left to us by a scheming bunch of men wearing robes and funny hats.

If we wait long enough it'll happen - the end of the world, that is, but not the return of Jesus.

Byker Bob said...

A couple of random musings.

Most Christians seem to feel that Sodom and Gomorrah had gone totally homo. That's why they marvel at Lot presenting his virgin daughters to the citizenry in proxy for the angels. I believe that the citizens were bisexual hedonists simply looking for fresh meat, and would most likely have been excited by specimens from either sex. If you make a careful study of Lot, he seems to have had a few things in common with HWA.

Ah, and then there is the Judaism thing. Pharisaic Judaism extant during the time of Jesus was vastly different from the law of Moses. I believe that Dr. Ernest Martin did an excellent series of articles on this topic for the early '60s Plain Truth, entitled, "Is Judaism the Law of Moses?" That article was floating around on the internet about 3-5 years ago, but I don't know precisely where it might be found today.

To those who wish we'd go away, I must say that we discuss dead and living people from decades ago because we want to block the types of exploitation which they used on us in the past, and are still attempting to use on other hapless ones in the present. Although, I have to admit that this is far less widespread and far less likely since God has divided and confused the tongue of Armstrongism.

As for the original topic, TWWOT, it was a blatant and simplistic attempt to extrapolate Armstrongism into the millennium. To use the punchline from an ancient joke, "I'se the proppa goose, and you'se the proppa ganda."

BB

Anonymous said...

The FOT was always a good time for ministers to give their "What it will be like" sermons.

In a Spokesman's Club, I said I disagreed with the speculation of a particular minister. [And I got away with disagreeing...] My thought was that our life would be like that during the period of the Judges, only no Canaanites and Philistines.

Remember the fictitious newspaper that came with the booklet?

camfinch said...

Robert wrote:

"There was more openness during the Armstrong years than there is today under Tkach. The Tkach administration do not study into anything, even if challenged, they send you a well rehearsed script that conforms to the "Evangelical Alliance" so as not to loose [sic] their membership! At least during the HWA days, things were looked into (at least during the early days anyway)."

I can't say what the current WCG regime under Joe Jr. does, but I will say that thirty and forty years ago, there wasn't a whole lot "looked into" under HWA, unless the results were forced into a scheme that HWA wanted. Otherwise, you could become personal non grata, or worse. Too bad Ernest Martin is deceased; he could tell you about "looking into" theological issues, which were for years disregarded by HWA and the top honchos who ran everything. Then, when he had been tossed aside for too many years and went his own way, his defense of a Sunday, as opposed to Monday, Pentecost was embraced without any credit to his scholarship, upon which that change was based. Talk about intellectual theft.

Anyone back in those years who came up with research that went against what HWA wanted was quickly discredited. The last period that things were perhaps "looked into" was the early 1950's, when the likes of supreme religious scholars as Herman Hoeh and Roderick Meredith were working on research to support totalitarian church government, the apostleship of HWA, and the probable return of Christ to earth in or around the year 1975. Such is the worthelessness of Armstrongist "scholarship".

Anonymous said...

I thought this little book had merit. Theorizing on how the Messianic kingdom might be organized, extrapolating from Biblical history and the promise of resurrection from death seemed reasonable to me. Why not? The promise of David being Israel's king forever certainly adds fuel to the idea. Surely the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob would be in on things. Joseph's second dream seems to look past this life. Moses wouldn't be left out, nor would Adam and Eve. In retrospect, WWT made a lot of sense. Fie on the gainsayers.

Anonymous said...

Camfinch, the second WCG service I attended was when the Pentecost change was announced. Herb made it sound like the change process was so simple: Oh, counting "from" means you include the day you start counting! We'd better change! Apparently Dr Hoeh said he had proof texts to justify whichever day was chosen.

I saw an internal memo from HWA to the Letter Answering Dept on what to do if someone had proof enough to challenge a doctrine. The process was to calmly and in a non-confrontational manner tell them they are WRONG!

Dennis Diehl said...

"I believe that the citizens were bisexual hedonists simply looking for fresh meat, and would most likely have been excited by specimens from either sex.z'

Not so. The citizens of Sodom, if real, were just people. The issue at Sodom was never sexual. The story is a middle eastern hospitality tale.

Strangers, in this case, "Angels" posed a threat to the clannish community. Were they spies? Did they mean the clan town harm? Who were they? The way you sent a strong man to man message in such a threatening case was to treat the intruder as a woman. Treat them as nothing. Rape them either literally or symbolically to warn them and send the message that they were mere women and nothing in the sight of the clan enclave.

Lot placed his role as hospitable Eastern male above daughters, who were nothing in such a case. He did not offer his sons in law. Lot's absolute honor as a middle eastern male was at stake. He had guests and their safety was a measure of his manhood and honor.

The sins of sodom in Ezekiel:

"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. (Ezekiel 16:49, 50)"

Of the five references to Sodom in the Gospels, three reinforce the connection between Sodom and inhospitality - Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11 and Luke 10:12. Hospitality -

Jesus took exception to Sodom based on his understanding as a culture that was unkind to others. Jesus never noted them as "queers" "fags" "bisexuals"
"Gay" "men with men" , "forsaking the natural use" or even Republicans.

There is no such thing as a completely gay or bi town of men and boys. These were no big places and expect Mrs. Lot may have spoken up for her daughters moving to such a place, if she was conscious.

It's a Middle Eastern Hospitality story. Lot handled it as anyone would have by offering totally healthy men and boys a woman to just go away and leave my stranger guests alone. But they wanted to put the strangers in their place and humiliate them by treating them as women. The only women that got good press in the OT were women that were so personally strong they didn't know what to do with them or played a small part in the life of a big important man.

Mike (EkimKS) said...

The 1973 edition is available for download here. Foreign language versions also.

Robert said...

>> If you make a careful study of Lot, he seems to have had a few things in common with HWA.

What short memories you folks have, go back and reread the Ambassador Report No 49.

Tkach Snr is rumored to be gay because he had not had sex with his wife in over 22 years. Loved the companionship of men -- the fearless leader could not sleep alone at night unless a man was in the room to confort him. Appointed Michael Feazell (known in WCG circles as the "cry baby").Attended a funeral of an "ex gay member" something no other WCG minister had ever done! Diluted the hard line articles on Homosexuality (particularly from
Rod Meredith) to one of forgiveness for sins.

Anonymous said...

"I doubt that I am the only WCG member who reads or posts here. Don't know. Maybe I am."

I'm sure there are a great many who read, Larry old boy. As for posting? None who have openly admitted themselves as members of Junior's little protestant sewing circle. But there's a reason for that, one that will become painfully obvious to you, should your local ministry catch wind of and/or read your comments here on AW, Larry:

Your blatant Herbie-worship, and your frantic clinging to the anti-Semitic, racist "tenets" of British-Israelism, are a clear liability against Junior's frantic protests that his shiny-new-happy-clappy-Jebus church has rejected all of those things completely.

Either WCG has rejected those things in name only (There's some verse about deception along those lines in the NT, isn't there?) and they continue on with a two-tiered information model, i.e., they present one face to "the world", and a second set of teachings to "the church". This is typical of most closed high-demand religious groups.

OR, you are yourself, a "Wallenite" or a GRUMP, holding fast and hanging tight to the rotten tree dropping poisonous fruit of Armstrongism, and your local WCG has no idea that you still believe in things they (allegedly) gave up ten years ago.

So which is it Larry? Is the current WCG still teaching Herbolatry and British-Israelism from the pulpit, or is that just your own interpretation?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Anonymous said...

"It's a Middle Eastern Hospitality story."

Thanks, Dennis. I have read a lot of homophobia masquerading as "biblical insight" from ex-Armstrongist who are self-professed "new covenant Christians" over the past few years, WRT the allegory of S&G, and while it always made me cringe, I never had a good answer for them. Now I do.

By the by, if you REALLY want to p!$$ them off, tell them the allegory of Jacob wrestling with the angel is really a retelling of the nightly confrontation between Horus and Set; it's an astro-theological ditty about the moon battling it out with the sun. Didn't anyone ever stop to wonder why "Jacob" couldn't let his adversary go until daybreak?

No, no, they probably didn't.

Anonymous said...

Gavin,

I was heartened to read that the cult figure Roderick (Rodders to friends)Mereidijth is your
favourite evangelist: and mine also?? Humph!

But,of course, you are correct.

"The Wonderful World Tomorrow"..could we call it
die Schön Welt von Morgan" (have I got that spelling right?)was an absolute masterpiece of fee-ology,
ranking up there with the Schofield Reference Bible.

The Wonderful World Tomorrow should have been an herbal proscription.

It perhaps could be the "Whirled Tomorrow", having been whirled around by enough shysters and hucksters for anyone's lifetime.

Herb might be in charge of the tithe programme,and,of course, all the generous offerings,as well.?Whew,for a minute I was almost believing my own words, but somehow I feel the bread of affliction (crow) will taste pretty good to Herb and that the monies will be assigned to someone with a right perspective towards them.

Oh dear,I just remembered crow is unclean....then how about an old
scrawny rooster,potboiled for hours.? Herb could be very humble with this sort of fare.

Jorgheinz

Anonymous said...

camfinch said...

Such is the worthelessness of Armstrongist "scholarship".



Camfink,

The level of "scholarship" does not always get any better out in the world's churches. Talking to a WCG guy who went along with the doctrinal changes and thought himself the scholarly sort, I couldn't help asking a question that went something like this:

"If the Roman Catholic and Protestant scholars are so great, then why, when it is all said and done, do they end up observing customs like Halloween?

He thought for a moment, and then said that they were "entitled to some mistakes."

Talking to another WCG guy who had joined the Roman Catholic church and was trying to tell me that he thought it was the original church, I asked if he believed that people will be tortured forever in an ever burning hell fire just for a mere seventy years of sinning.

He said that there were still "some things that they [the RC's] had not figured out yet."

I am well aware that HWA was not perfect, but compared to these other characters, he doesn't look so bad.

Dennis Diehl said...

"Didn't anyone ever stop to wonder why "Jacob" couldn't let his adversary go until daybreak?"

Purp Hymn...I always thought maybe Jacob had a grip on a vampire and was trying to do him in with sunrise :) He may have avoided it all if he had some garlic or a silver bullet.

Isra-El means "he struggled with El"

You're right however. As above, so below and the sky and astro-theological stories of old get names and characters, literalized down here and then we think it really happened.

"Sun Set" while lost to us, was very telling in explaining which God begins to rule when the Sun went down in Egypt. Set being the god of the underworld and all.

larry said...

Purple Hymnal,
I confess that I have some difficulty responding to your posts. They are SO off base! I am NOT anti-Semitic, nor am I a racist. Some of my best friends are Jewish and from races other than Caucasian.

Furthermore, I do not know personally anyone in the WCG who could be described this way. I am pretty sure that the local minister is aware of my views and posts. We speak often about these things.

If there is one hallmark of the "new" Worldwide Church of God, it is tolerance. Mercy, forgiveness, caring, and faith are not far behind.

I realize that this may not fit with your characterization of a "protestant sewing circle", but I can't help that.

Weinland Watch said...

"Shadows,Flavor Aid and Weinland Watch will be in charge of watching all the hens in the hen house."

Omelettes for all!

Weinland Watch said...

"Then there was the 2520 years from the destruction of the temple by Nebuchadnezzar (1996, in case you missed it)."

That was the same year the family unit finally "gave up the ghost" or should I say, didn't accept the ghastly Ghost that Junior was pawning off on us, and finally quit for good.

The 1996 thought did strike me at one point, but as we left quite late in the calendrical year, I mentally shrugged and said to myself, "If it was gonna happen, it probably would have happened by now."

That said, I wasn't far enough removed from the church yet, to extrapolate that to all the years of my life before that point.

camfinch said...

"The level of "scholarship" does not always get any better out in the world's churches."

I agree with that. "Scholarship" done within a strictly religious framework too often seeks to wag the dog, i.e., to look for a presumed result and use the research and study as a means of getting the result. I am much more interested in academic studies of religious texts and beliefs.

Byker Bob said...

Robert, I wasn't around during the Tkach era. About the time I left, Joe Sr. was a local elder, and Joe Jr. was an AC Student. Prior to my leaving, there were allegations of a Joe Sr. affair with an AC grad, and I later read suspicions in AR about his relationship with a Ms. Escat, who was apparently his occasional traveling companion. I do not know anything about alleged gaity.

The similarities between Lot and HWA to which I was alluding were Lot's penchant for drinking, and the fact that he slept with his daughters. Also the fact that he was willing to sell out his own family to get himself out of a jam. Sodom was a very wealthy city, and Lot seemingly craved wealth. He'd already aced out Uncle Abe for the choicest digs. If that ain't a Herbie thing, I don't know what is.

BTW, I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of "the new" WCG.

BB

Dennis Diehl said...

Lawrence noted:

"If there is one hallmark of the "new" Worldwide Church of God, it is tolerance. Mercy, forgiveness, caring, and faith are not far behind."

Of course , this only applies to those who complied after 2000 or so. Before that, the bewildered, confused, hurt, anxious and befuddled were scorned in Jesus name.

Larry...Perhaps a good read of "Be Warmed and Be Filled...We're praying for you," in the next Journal might give you some insite into a past you have never experienced with The Armstrongs or Tkaches.

They only have these traits now after flushing away all those that didn't filter the Bible through the paradigm that overtook them. In case you missed it in the article....

When I presented WCG's terms of termination to my lawyer, she said,,,, (sorry to repeat this guys again, but it was a pivitol awakening to me...)

"This is a church?"
"yes"
"You're f____ed."

Getting "f___ed by a church was not my life goal as a pastor no matter how it turned out or whether I was right or wrong in the presentation of the Bible.

The Tkaches and leadership few were and are not tolerant people. They show no mercy or caring that I have ever experienced personally. They lied 100% about the questions I asked 100% of the time. Their right hand never had a clue what their left butt was doing.

They have found the sweet Jesus of my past Sunday School experience and now hang with those that all wear the same blinders, in him.

It's easy to love those that love you. It's easy to show mercy when it's just rhetoric and not substantive. It's easy to have to claim faith when you run out of ideas.

Their minister to ministers can't even get two comments per posting on their pie in the sky theological site , The Surprising God Blog.

I know a number of WCG ministers who currently think WCG is a pain in the ass and they don't teach locally what they get from them. Smoke and mirrors Church of God. They, like Bob Thiel of LCG, are not willing to take comments outside of those that already agree with them.

I have sent very polite comments to these guys, who I knew all my life and they won't print them . They only want to congratulate themselves on what they already agree on and high five themselves into the Triunity of the bi-uni God. The SGB is one of the most silly theological presentations I have ever read. Breathtakingly shallow and ignorant of real Bible issues. Purely emotional-feel good Sunday school. If you've heard on sermon from those men, you have heard them all.

So I"m happy you are having a great experience, whatever that means. The "New" WCG may be playing well among themselves, but hardly among those that put them in the position, by hard work and sacrfice over decades, to play the church they find themselves enjoying.

DennisCDiehl@aol.com

Mr. Scribe said...

Looking to the future:

For your entertainment, KScribe has the hard to find infotainment of Estus Pirkle's "The Burning Hell."

I am sure that Robert and our dear friend from another blog (that never gets a comment) will object, but the show must go on!

This is indeed the "Wonderful World Tomorrow" that the "dogmatic cultist one(s)" will guide us into a all understanding view of what truth is! You see, Estus Pirkle is in error!

Anonymous said...

Someone once posted a link to page that illustrated "scholarly approach" and "religious approach" to research. The difference was whether the conclusion is derived from the facts or facts are selected to fit the conclusion. I've found some of the most strongly defended or closely held beliefs can be those with the least support - like the rapture or the place of safety.

GTA used to ridicule the academic research method by calling by calling the two trees account the first science experiment. To his credit, in later years, he said if someone has ten facts (or proof texts) and one is a little different than the other nine, the obscure one is likely to form the basis of the theory/doctrine.

Anonymous said...

Herb's Everest House endeavor -

In Dave Pack's latest update, he claims the total number of books sold over 8 years - all titles - amounted to about 3000.

Anonymous said...

"'Sun Set' while lost to us, was very telling in explaining which God begins to rule when the Sun went down in Egypt. Set being the god of the underworld and all."

Yup, and the goddess of the night, is Nut, or Nuit.

Anonymous said...

"If there is one hallmark of the "new" Worldwide Church of God, it is tolerance. Mercy, forgiveness, caring, and faith are not far behind."

That's ironic, Larry, because you have not demonstrated any one of those qualities yourself, in any of the posts that you have made here, since you started infesting the place.

Anonymous said...

robert said,
"This year, the non postponement dates for God's festivals are during September. Whereas, the Hebrew calendar places them in October. HWA continued with the Hebrew calendar however the rules of postponements are not binding on Messianic believers or Sabbatarians (unless we accept the authority of the Pharisees: "The scribes and Pharisees seat in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you, do observe, that observe and do" (Matt 23:2-3).

I have yet to study into Matthew 23:2-3 and therefore have not reached a conclusive opinion on the matter."

Robert mentions a few subjects I have been looking into. In Mt. 23:2-3 I believe we are told to do those things that Moses' seat should tell us to do. If someone sitting in that seat tells us contrary to what someone in that seat has the responsibility to teach, then do not listen. I don't think we are told to listen to the Pharisees on everything...only what they say that is right are we to follow.
On the subject of postponements, I am really surprised to learn, in just the past few years, that we calculate the holy days according to the postponements. Were the Saducees more correct in their figuring? This is an area that I am a novice in, so I am looking into it.
The seventh day Sabbath I have studied for 27 to 30 years, off and on, and the truth speaks for itself. The seventh day sabbath is a commandment just like thou shalt not commit adultery.
There was truth and error coming from Herbert Armstrong. (There is from all of us, too.) I learned alot there but did not accept everything that he said. Follow truth when you hear it, not error, always prove and hold onto what is good. Christ spoke truth.

another anon said...

Anonymous said...
"Herb's Everest House endeavor -

In Dave Pack's latest update, he claims the total number of books sold over 8 years - all titles - amounted to about 3000."

Dave is wrong again, although overall he might be correct if his point was that Everest House was not financially successful. I worked at Quest and Everest House for awhile. A book called, "They Call Me Assassin" sold a lot more than 3,000 copies by itself. (It was a sports autobiography by an American professional football player.)

It is true that Everest House was not a great financial success. However, the whole purpose of Quest and Everest House was to give HWA some credibility that he could not get as the head of a church or a tiny church college. That whole Ambassador International Cultural Foundation thing (AICF as it was originally called) was a huge boondoggle. The Foundation, concert series, Quest and Everest House cost the church untold millions of dollars and put great financial stress on the organization. Throw in HWA's divorce costs and it was no wonder that the church had big financial problems for awhile. Pray and pay, people. Don't forget to check your brains at the door.

Libro 66 said...

/-- On the subject of postponements, I am really surprised to learn, in just the past few years, that we calculate the holy days according to the postponements. --/

You mean, just like the Jews do? Guess that explains why the free calendar my bank gave me coincides with most of the holy days this year...

/-- This is an area that I am a novice in, so I am looking into it. --/

You might have a browse through the Mishnah, which is a collection of traditions passed down by the Pharisees and finally put to paper around 200 AD, before the current Jewish calendar was finalized. It includes traditions that date back to the time of Christ and earlier.

The Pharisees in Jesus' day didn't use postponements. In fact, they didn't use a calculated calendar at all. Gamaliel (yes, the Gamaliel mentioned in Acts) said it should be done this way: Offer a free dinner to anyone who comes to Jerusalem and claims, "I saw the first sliver of the new moon this evening!" If at least two or three witnesses show up, blow the silver trumpets and declare that the new moon has officially begun.

Sometimes, especially for the important months, literally dozens would show up unannounced for dinner. Naturally, certain ones wanted to back off on the free food, but Gamaliel objected. He said it's better to have a hundred show up than no one at all.

Now, that doesn't contradict what David said to Jonathan -- "Tomorrow is the new moon -- could you cover for me?" Everyone knows the moon goes around the earth every 29 1/2 days -- it's not hard to anticipate when the new moon is probably going to be. Gamaliel's method was an official way of going about it.

/-- Follow truth when you hear it, not error, always prove and hold onto what is good. --/

Absolutely! Wish there had been more people who didn't feel they had to live by every word of Herbert Armstrong.

Libro

(By the way, the Pharisees also argued about whether a woman's witness should count as half a man's witness, or whether it should count at all. And then they argued over whether a slave's witness should count as much as a free man's witness, or if it should only count as much as a woman's witness. Mint, anise, and cumin, anyone?)

Libro 66 said...

Dennis: /-- "Sun Set" while lost to us, was very telling in explaining which God begins to rule when the Sun went down in Egypt. Set being the god of the underworld and all. --/

Purple: /-- Yup, and the goddess of the night, is Nut, or Nuit. --/

LOL! And the Saxons are the Sons of iSaac! Amazingly, modern technology, designed by descendents of iSaac, PROVES it all beyond a shadow of a doubt by continuing the proud tradition of starting things with a small 'i': the iMac, the iPod, the iPhone...

:-)

Libro

(And in the future, they'll be known as the Zaxxons! There's been a video game about their space exploits since the 80's!)

Anonymous said...

Mounting Everest

Sorry -- Dave meant all Herb's books published for sale.

Anonymous said...

Laugh all you like Libro, just because that's what the Egyptian god-names were translated as in the 1800s, still doesn't mean the Egyptian gods are "real" or anything.

Or are you cheesed off about my interpretation of the "Jacob wrestles with god" parable?

Libro 66 said...

/-- Or are you cheesed off about my interpretation of the "Jacob wrestles with god" parable? --/

Woah -- peace, dude! Chill. I just thought it was funny. We laugh at BI enthusiasts who point to, say, Denmark and say, "Look! Denmark sounds like Dan's Mark! See? That proves it!" I think you and I both agree that's silly -- and every bit as funny as suggesting the English words "sunset" and "night" derive from Egyptian gods who happened to have similar-sounding names.

I remember the mission statement of Gary Scott's xCG blog a couple of years ago: "apathetic goofing on the Momma Hen WCG and all her little splinter chicks". That's all I was doing -- goofing apathetically. Weren't you? I mean, it's not as if you honestly believe "night" comes from "Nuit."

/-- ...just because that's what the Egyptian god-names were translated as in the 1800s, still doesn't mean the Egyptian gods are "real" or anything. --/

Huh? You lost me there. I never accused you of believing the gods are real. That Nuit gal, though -- just long and skinny and hideous enough to be related to the Number One Bad Guy in the movie 10,000 BC...

Libro

(I mean, really. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if this was, say, a German blog -- their words for "night" and "sunset" are "dunkelheit" and "sonnenuntergang"...)

Anonymous said...

"That's all I was doing -- goofing apathetically. Weren't you?"

Yes, yes, sorry, I've been feeling a little defensive lately. Pax?