Wednesday, 12 December 2007

UCG's Great Leap Backward

UCG is relocating to Texas. Details on Stan's blog. Is this another nail in UCG's coffin? Let's think. Did Herb Armstrong's Radio Church of God grow to prominence in the Bible belt? Shucks, no! Did GTA's "new beginning" take off in "down home" Tyler? Nope! For a small religious movement to prosper it needs to define itself against the values of its surrounding culture, not capitulate to them.

68 comments:

Anonymous said...

The tithe paying enablers are being fleeced again by clever Clyde and the senile council of elders. Noted by many of us at our UCG congregation, is that the leadership always has cash for needless projects,but can not find a way to fund a television ministry.

Why are eighty acres needed? Will the excess property be used for cattle ranching? The BS in this case would be more visible to the congregation and could not be presented as a doctrinal paper.

Wasteful decisions such as this Texas move are typical of persons who are of a priestly welfare class that have earned nothing by achievement,but insist that their lives be funded by charity.

But as we all know ..the gospel must first be preached from Texas.

Oh well..its only YOUR money.

Byker Bob said...

Well the basic bottom line in all of this is that if God were behind a work, it would succeed regardless of the location, and in spite of the people through whom the work was being done. Once again, we're in a position to observe.

I hate to keep harping on it, but there is a major work going on in Texas, as we speak. And there's a lot of buzz across the US of A about it. In fact, you can't help but stumble across it wherever you may be, as I was reminded last night when one of our opponent's bowling team had her Joel Osteen book in plain sight following bowling.

Now, I'm not about to hustle on across the desert to Texas to become part of this, I'm too skeptical of organized religion following our shared cultic experiences. But, I do have to take notice of the successes involved. It should certainly make ACOG leaders and members ask some questions of themselves and each other. Unfortunately, in most cases, they'd attribute said success to Satan, as they are accustomed to do with any successful mass movement that does not incorporate the "sacred" 18 restored truths of HWA.

But, isn't this typical? We read in the Bible that God blessed or cursed people in real time. Israel didn't have to wait hundreds or thousands of years
to be blessed for obedience, or cursed for idolatry and rebellion. The American colonies were founded largely on Protestant principles which came out of the Reformation, and have become the most blessed nation in the history of the entire world. The pilgrims, being thankful, did not introduce the Indians to the Feast of Tabernacles (which occurs following harvest), or the sabbath. Those things were virtually unheard of by the patriots and statesmen who founded our country. Yet the ACOGs expect us to believe that God blessed all of us gentiles in the USA based on His promises to Abraham, in spite of our keeping of what they call "pagan" traditions. It just makes no sense at all!

BB

Neotherm said...

The UCG leaders are not being good Armstrongites about the move to Texas. They should find some doctrinal reason for the move in order to quiet all dissent.

Herman Hoeh at one time justified Big Sandy as the only place in the world where the Feast of Tabernacles could be kept. And, of course, cosmetics have been in and out of doctrinal favor. Then Pentecost was on Monday and then Sundy.

Hoeh's succssor UCG, whoever that might be, should be able to find some Biblical exgesis that would identify Texas as the place for the UCG HQ. Then anyone who disagreed could be disfellowshipped

-- Neo

DennisDiehl said...

Neo....Texas backwards, which would be the orginal Hebrew is Saxet.

Sax comes from the Anglo Saxon word...well Saxon! "Et" is derived from "ExtraTerestrial" or "Other worldly" which would be "El" the God of the Hebrews, at first anyway.

So we have " God's extraterestrials from Saxony."

Since in the Cretaceous era, Texas was connected to the Middle East and called Pangea, it all fits!

Notice, they are "7" miles from downtown Denton which is highly significant. "Denton" is the Saxet word for "Dan-tons" or "quite heavy tribe of Dan" It is known that when the tribe of Dan fell on you...you were fallen upon unto death.

So see...it all fits! Wake up man!

"Sax-et" is also the feminine form of to sleep or retire. So it's a place of final retirement and final training as well.

Any other questions about this move, just ask me. I can, at times, channel Gerald Waterhouse

gerald lloyd kookson lll said...

The Saxets are so fanatical they routinely kill their kids when demon possession is suspected - Christianity taken to its logical extreme.

Anonymous said...

Reference is made to Dennis Diehl's post regarding Gerald Waterhouse.

Excerpt below is another passage from my unpublished essay, "My Reflections on the Worldwide Church of God - 1972 in Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?"

Excerpt:

In December, 1968, I received my first doses of traveling evangelist Gerald Waterhouse. At a bible study on December 4, I learned World Tomorrow prophecies such as “Job will straighten out the cities” and “Noah will take the job of solving the race problems”.

On December 7 (a date that shall live in Worldwide Church infamy), we had a combined church service with other churches at a dark and dingy old rental hall on Eastern Avenue in Baltimore. Reading my sermon notes from this occasion over 30 years later reveal a manipulative message that I now realize was intended to extend control over the peoples’ minds. Waterhouse preaches “God’s people are different from society. The only way you can be out of a society is for God to take you out….God has to take us to a place (of safety) to mold us into the right society”.

Waterhouse later preaches, “There will be no rebels in the World Tomorrow. By the end of the work, all the people who stayed loyal will be taken to a place of safety”.

End of Excerpt

Comment: Elsewhere in my sermon notes I recorded "Waterhouse" meant "go water the house of God". I can remeber the excitement in my local congregation when ever we received notice that God's traveling evangelist was going to visit our church area.

Anyway, I will continue to publish excerpts from my unpublished essay on this site whenever relevant topics come up.

I am sure there is Waterhousian significance that could be preached to support the Texas UCG move, as Dennis rightly points out.

Richard

DennisDiehl said...

"I can remeber the excitement in my local congregation when ever we received notice that God's traveling evangelist was going to visit our church area.:

Richard, those notes sound very familiar! Ugh...my real sense of GW's visits was that they were contrived and people, including the minister, were supposed to be "excited" It was a "oh brother, well act excited" kinda thing in hindsite.

You heard the man once, you heard him enough. I can't remember looking forward to his visits at all and I always had to hear the same old stuff at least two and sometimes three times. I actually told the elderly they did not have to attend a weeknight meeting as it was too late and too dark depending.

I never could figure out if he was sincere or just on auto pilot and really believed his spiel. A lifetime of one broken record in one's head was depressing to me for him!

Two direct questions I ever asked him I remember well.

1. Well this was a statement. "Mr. Waterhouse, your talks cause more problems for me in the local church than they solve. The questions you generate here I will refer the people back to you to answer."

2. What are you going to say when HWA dies? I was tempted to say Mr. "Urmstrong" as he pronounced it. He said "I'll believe it after three days and three nights."

Argh, argh and half an argh.

The good ol days!

Anonymous said...

Dennis,

In retrospect, Gerald Waterhouse was a laughable side show to add to the bizareness of our cult, the WCG.

I share your recollection of the redundant message. If you heard him once, then you've heard him many times. The same spiel over and over again.

Sometimes, I think he made the stuff up impromptu off the top of his head - prophetic announcements that we lay members would write down in our sermon notes - each nugget of "God's prophetic truth" and insight into the World Tomorrow.

I also remember his sermons (if you can call them sermons) could go as long as 3 or more hours!

I recall a statement made by Waterhouse that God would finish the work with Mr. Armstrong, so Mr. Armstrong's death was not even a possibility in WCG thought at that time.

Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh at your Waterhouse channeling comment. I thought I read that Waterhouse ended up in UCG? I was long gone by the time Mr. Armstrong died, and the splinters and WCG demise happened.

Richard

Tom said...

Richard said:

>>>If you heard him (Gerald Waterhouse)once, then you've heard him many times. The same spiel over and over again.<<<

I couldn't agree more. I first heard him in Leicester, England, in the early 1980s. He spoke for 4 hours and said nothing of substance. But he speculated or advanced some theory about A Place of Final Training, without providing any supporting scriptures.

His antics behind the lectern left me feeling that he had homosexual tendencies, as they were rather effeminate. These are not the kind of mannerisms one would expect to see in a genuine minister of Christ.

DennisDiehl said...

"His antics behind the lectern left me feeling that he had homosexual tendencies, as they were rather effeminate. These are not the kind of mannerisms one would expect to see in a genuine minister of Christ."

The Apostle Paul may have struck you the same way with his "sounds tough from a distance but is weak in presense" reputation. Paul was unmarried. Wanted others to be like himself (against Jesus teachings) and be single. Beat himself physically to keep himself in subjection. And had a thorn in his flesh that would not budge which may have been latent and unpracticed homosexual tendencies if you put the whole pic together. Or not.

He blamed women for the fall of men and said women come from men and not men from women, which is why women should shut up.

I think the boy had a problem..Oh and he was a tentmaker and probably very good at decorating.
:)

Anonymous said...

Shortly before the laughable attempt to buy the Texas property that was close to a chemcal waste disposal facility,the UCG brass wanted the congregation to fast for wisdom concerning the land purchase.

Now the new site has been acquired without informing tne brethren, I hope that means Clyde is buying lunch for all of the UCG congregations this time.

Neotherm said...

I recently watch a documentary on the Arts and Entertainment channel about the "House of Yahweh". This was started by a guy who has dubbed himself Yisrael Hawkins who used to be a WCG member. Essentially, HOY is one of the more frightening, yet zany Old Testament oriented branches of Armstrongism.

In the course of the documentary, there was a segment on the attempt to de-program an elderly woman who had disappeared into the cult eight years earlier.

The De-programmer pointed out to her that Hawkins was telling them that the End of the Age was imminent but he was buying long-term assets. This had no effect on her thinking but it did on mine.

It is odd that the UCG seems to be investing in real estate here and looking for long term growth. Of course, their leadership will hide behind the idea of "good stewardship." But my guess is that the "end of the age" stuff is served up to lay members to keep them contributing but is not believed by the leadership.

Denton no doubt is on the trail that the Tribe of Dan followed. Denton means Dan-Town. It was also named after a man who was a great Indian fighter signifying a location where Israel took a stand against the Canaanites just as the UCG is now taking a stand against modern Babylon. What's not to like?

Gerald Waterhouse was not always looked upon with dread. He spoke at great and miserable length but for prophecy hounds he was delectable. I remember in Oklahoma City he climbed to great heights of eloquence in describing how the Israelites (read: your neighbors that you don't like and are envious of)would be treated cruelly by the Germans. The atmosphere was electric as the marginalized found a new sense of importance and security.

-- Neo

Lussenheide said...

Hey,lighten up! Time to laugh a little bit!

Come sing along with Bill!
Sing the following lyrics to the tune of the opening theme of the "Beverly Hillbillies"...

Come and listen to a story about U-C-G
A poor little church, but a well fed ministry,
Then one day Clyde said "lets hurry up and move",
But up through the ground came a toxic bubblin' crude.

Waste that is, black crude, Benzene...

What we didn't all know was the church'is a millionaire,
Brethren said Clyde move away from there
Said Denton is the place you ought to be...
So they loaded up the truck to fulfill their crazy destiny!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

DennisDiehl said...

Bill..you ain't right!

Anonymous said...

"Now the new site has been acquired without informing tne brethren, I hope that means Clyde is buying lunch for all of the UCG congregations this time."

The original fast covers all contingencies, flub ups, miscalculations and decisions both made and unmade, remade and made again.

God has answered with awewome clarity and no refasting is necessary in such cases.

Stan said...

Thanks for the mention, Gavin.

I have since put up new entry called "Grounds For Impeachment".

As my cover letter backgrounder to Sen. Grassley will explain, now would be a good time for Tkach to be called before Senate Finance Committee to explain how WCG nonprofit and 501(c)(3) tax exempt finances should work in conjunction to produce genuine public and private sector accountability.

Stan

Anonymous said...

"Noted by many of us at our UCG congregation, is that the leadership always has cash for needless projects,but can not find a way to fund a television ministry."

They obviously don't want to do any kind of "work". One has to ask why?

It is a conspiracy. Moles at work.

A number of the council members are "moles", planted there years ago by Orthodox Christianity. It is their intent to take peoples money, let the people grow old, and let the movement die out.

They never want to see this thing grow again and the best way to destroy an organization from the inside.

You take over it's leadership.

Anonymous said...

"A number of the council members are "moles", planted there years ago by Orthodox Christianity. It is their intent to take peoples money, let the people grow old, and let the movement die out."

Oh yes, since Armstrongism is such a threat to Christianity. Specially trained clergy are sent undercover to infiltrate UCG and destroy the Huge Outreach of Armstrongism that UCG accomplishes each year.

Paul

Anonymous said...

Two notes on Mr. Waterhouse, neither of which can exactly discount the idea that he was a homosexual: (Not that there is anything wrong with him having been one.)

#1. He was married at one time. (See Tangled Web)

#2. He was a professional athlete, a PGA rated golfer and minor league baseball player.

In the end, however, he seems to have been a person who just spent way too much time by himself. Endlessly on the road, most of his time in transit or in hotels by himself. Makes a man nutty. (Not that he wasn’t nutty to begin with.)

As for Denton, my mind may be fading, but wasn’t that the name of the town from the movie The Rocky Horror Picture Show?

Mark Lax

Tom said...

DennisDiehl said...

TOM>>>"His antics behind the lectern left me feeling that he had homosexual tendencies, as they were rather effeminate. These are not the kind of mannerisms one would expect to see in a genuine minister of Christ."<<<

DD>>>The Apostle Paul may have struck you the same way with his "sounds tough from a distance but is weak in presense" reputation.<<<

Actually, there were some in the Corinthian church, who said that Paul letters were "weighty, but his bodily presence was weak." Paul never attributed weakness to himself, for he said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

So to conjecture or speculate that Paul was probably homosexual because he was small of stature and didn't come with the rippling muscles of Greek athletes is the hight of absurdity.

DD>>>Paul was unmarried. Wanted others to be like himself (against Jesus teachings) and be single.<<<

Yes, Paul unmarried, but being unmarried was his calling. Jesus, during a discussion with his disciples about divorce, was asked, "If the case of the man be so with his wife, is it not good to marry." And Jesus replied, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given." The ability to abstain from marriage and sex was God's gift to Paul. In reality, Paul became a "eunuch for the kingdom of heaven sake."

DD>>>Beat himself physically to keep himself in subjection.<<<

This is nonsense.

DD>>>And had a thorn in his flesh that would not budge which may have been latent and unpracticed homosexual tendencies if you put the whole pic together.<<<

This is more nonsense! Paul's thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan to buffet him, to keep him humble. Since Christ, Paul was the wisest man ever. Mysteries were revealed to him that even the Apostle Peter admitted were hard to be understood. And since "knowledge puffs up," and "God since resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble," Paul was given a thorn in the flesh to humble him, so that he didn't become proud because of the abundance of revelations given unto him.

Honestly, it is quite shocking to think that you were once an ordained minister of WCG, when you are so completely ignorant of the wholesome teachings of the bible.

Anonymous said...

Wholesomeness of the bible???

Who are you kidding?? You are kidding, right?? Because that is the heaight of absurdity and ignorance to claim the bible is wholesome.

The bible is full of depravity and immorality and that is talking about the bible heroes. Sacrificing relatives to please god, god assisted slaughter of innocent civilizations who happened to have a different religion than the Isrealites, etc., etc., etc.

God approved of deceitfulness and lies, and rewarded those who lied with blessings. Heck, God told so many lies he could be called the father of lies. God murdered so many in the bible he could be called the father of murderers.

By the way, Satan never lies in the bible and only murders others upon gods command. I bet he wishes he wasn't compelled by his creator to do those evil things. I would rebel against such an unwholesome monster as God if he were indeed more than the figment of the bible writers imagination.

Even jesus taught that you should leave your family destitute and alone when you begin to follow him.
But if you think that is wholesome, you indeed are desensitized by your religion.

Questeruk said...

'God told so many lies he could be called the father of lies.'

Have I missed something? Exactly which lies are these?

Anonymous said...

I heard Waterhouse speak once in my 12 WCG years. That was enough.

He was rumored to be one of the Two Witnesses of Revelations. But he left me cold. A minister should exhibit a spirit of God or holiness. He was arrogant. I listened in disbelief as he hurled ridicule and criticism at the congregation, laughing at the same time. It spewed out so rapidly, yet so naturally.

My impression was of a man with some very deep, dark secrets. Someone you would never trust your kids with. Someone who lived a dark life which he managed to keep quiet. Someone with some serious psychiatric problems.

Questeruk said...

"Noted by many of us at our UCG congregation, is that the leadership always has cash for needless projects,but can not find a way to fund a television ministry."

What is this list I see in the 'Good News' of well over two hundred and fifty TV stations carring a weekly UCG TV program?

Anonymous said...

I will list a couple of gods lies, but certainly not even close to a fraction. I will quote the first and the last lies.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day (not after the day)that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Anonymous said...

The 250 stations that broadcast the UCG Good News program are local access stations that nobody watches. Mosly a free service.

Sadly many of the local access programs are broadcasted because of the efforts of lay members, not the lazy ministers.

The money saved by avoiding a large commercial network can be used for salaries and pensions....this is the true work of UCG.

DennisDiehl said...

Tom said:

"The ability to abstain from marriage and sex was God's gift to Paul."

Gee thanks God...nice gift:)

Tom Said:

"DD>>>Beat himself physically to keep himself in subjection.<<<

This is nonsense."

I Cor. 9:27

but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Rather, I toughen my body with punches and make it my slave so that I will not be disqualified after I have spread the Good News to others.

American Standard Version
but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Bible in Basic English
But I give blows to my body, and keep it under control, for fear that, after having given the good news to others, I myself might not have God's approval.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Darby Bible Translation
But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest after having preached to others I should be myself rejected.

English Revised Version
but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Tyndale New Testament
but I tame my body and bring him into subjection, lest after that I have preached to other, I myself should be a castaway.

Weymouth New Testament
but I hit hard and straight at my own body and lead it off into slavery, lest possibly, after I have been a herald to others, I should myself be rejected.

Webster's Bible Translation
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a cast-away.

World English Bible
but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Young's Literal Translation
but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved

Iknow..it's an allegory. I bet you think all the Apostles, Peter, James, John and Paul all got along really really well too....

DennisDiehl said...

Tom: If you wish to curl your toes on the real Apostle Paul and his relationship to James and whatever constituted the Jewish Christian Church, read:

Paul the Mythmaker by Maccoby and Anti-Semitism in the NT by Freudman.

A good romp through Raymond Brown's Birth and Death of the Messiah tomes might also be fun. Or an evening with Rescueing the Bible From Fundamentalism perhaps.

Or is it just prooftexing booklets that work best?

You'll get your bubble burst real quick.

(Of course I know you won't touch them)

The Surprising God Blog (For WCG Ministers only) has posted a "what do we do with the book of James" since we are all so Jesus, grace, trinity, no law oriented? They will apologize all over themselves for what James seems to be saying and make it all match somehow.

Let me give the simple answer since they don't take imput from outside the tribe.

James and Peter had no use for Paul and his gospel. Paul had not use for them. John felt Peter, who denied Jesus was no better than Judas, who betrayed him.

The book of Acts is Luke's, who was Paul's buddy, attempt to make Paul look compliant with the early Jerusalem church. He fails.

Acts is all about Paul but even Paul disagrees with the the accounts of his life. (Long story.

Paul had no use for the church pillars of Peter, James and John..'apostles so called....I learned NOTHING from them." (Gal 1-2)

Paul lied about what was said at the Acts 15 Conference. He had no intention of enforcing most Noahide rules on the Corinithians and didn't. Luke made him look compliant but Paul's writings tell another story.

Paul preached so much freedom he had to start rethinking law to control the church again. An oft repeated cycle in church growth. I promise that WCG will make the same cycle again when some of their liberated Pastor types and members "start" sinning because of all the gushy grace and oneness with the Triune God.

Paul was a Hellenized Jew born in a city where Cosmic god men were common and from which he derived his Christ doctrines a mere five to ten years after Jesus died. (If he lived...my opinion).

You can read Paul's writings and never get the idea he was speaking of any living, human, recently dead human being. Whoever Jesus was in the flesh, he was born of a woman, so nothing special there.

Paul rarely if at all quotes Jesus when he would do well to do so to back up his arguements. He never met the man but lived as a chief Pharisee in the city at the very time of Jesus ministry when his buddies were tormenting Jesus daily according to the Gospels. I don't think so. We never hear of Paul until Luke slides him into the Jesus story in Acts. I don't think so.

Paul's jesus was Cosmic and in his head, seen in visions which is what Paul means by "Have I not seen the lord?" The word is not literally to see but rather to 'experience'.

Paul said he was called from the womb like Jesus and Jeremiah and not on any road to Damascus.

Paul was a failed Temple thug (sound familiar?) who probably didn't study under Gamaliel at all, was not the smartest and most advanced pencil in the box and had to resort to tentmaking to make bucks since evidently Gamaliel wasn't impressed enough to employ him as a real pharisee in the temple.

Paul does not reason or think like a Pharisee of the Pharisee and makes a fool of himself at times with some of his hideous spiritual analogies.

Paul was a liar and the early Jewish Church had little use for him.

Thus the Book of James was written to counter Paul, not compliment him.

Sorry for the long posting. Paul is the one character I have studied for years and that many ministers KNOW is the NT problem no one will talk about. By ministers, I mean higly educated theologians, not Bible readers.

mytwocents said...

Anonymous said:

I will list a couple of gods lies, but certainly not even close to a fraction. I will quote the first and the last lies.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day (not after the day)that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


This sounds like the same rationale that Satan (the father of lies and twister of truth) uses.

First, from the premise (which I believe) that the Bible is the word of God , just as your entry is your word - and therefore from your point of view - and my entry is my word - and from my point of view, then the Bible is from God's point of view, not humanity's.

God cannot and does not sin, and lying is a sin, so God cannot lie and does not lie.

Numbers 19:23 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"

Time is a function of the physical world, not the spirit world (how do you measure forever?).

II Peter 3:8 - "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." No human has ever lived 1000 years, so "in that day" humanity has continued to die.

So, the word "quickly" is from God's point of view, not humanity's. To Him, who is not bound by time, it's a mere few days, To humanity, which sees the thousands of years that have passed since these words were spoken, it seems like a long, long time.

DennisDiehl said...

"So, the word "quickly" is from God's point of view, not humanity's. To Him, who is not bound by time, it's a mere few days, To humanity, which sees the thousands of years that have passed since these words were spoken, it seems like a long, long time."

Then God should inspire the phrase "behold I come when I get around to it, as you don't understand how I would use the word 'shortly'"

This way every human church organization can't keep promoting themselves and motivating the sheep with "shortly" ad naseum.

Questeruk said...

'By ministers, I mean higly educated theologians, not Bible readers.'

So I suppose you can't expect to understand the Bible by reading it. You need to become a 'theologian' to have a hope of understanding it.

I suppose it's best to just read what 'theologians' say about the Bible, rather that read it yourself. Then you will understand.

Anonymous said...

dennisdiehl said:

Then God should inspire the phrase "behold I come when I get around to it, as you don't understand how I would use the word 'shortly'"

Have you brought this to God's attention that He was wrong and should have done things differently?

I think Lucifer tried this and it didn't work out too well for him.

DennisDiehl said...

"'By ministers, I mean higly educated theologians, not Bible readers.'"

My context was that it is ministers who have invested a lot of time in their education and not just in denominational spin that also recognize the problem of Paul. They were taught about the 'problems of Paul' and they understand that Paul is not as easy to address in the NT as just reading the stories in Sunday School would make him to be.

My answer had nothing to do with reading or giving the Bible meaning to oneself or the conclusions an Evangelical denomination might come to.

"Have you brought this to God's attention that He was wrong and should have done things differently?"

Yes, and ofen...If the Deity is going to communicate vital and eternally important truth that can effect one's life, goals, resources, family relations, decisions and priorities, then it should be communicated well on human terms without the wiggle room that "a day is as a thousand years", and other such nonesense phrases that can be used by the Priestcraft such as:

"The wisdom of man is foolishness to god"

"There is a way that seems right to a man...."

"My ways are not your ways,"

"You have an attitude problem"...ok I made that one up...

that can be used to shut down accurate observation and inquiry as to how something could or could not be.

When the supposed consequences for being wrong are so grave, then the Deity has the responsibility of clearly communicating his plan, views, covenants and requirements, including proving he exists literally so there is no suspicion that human priestshoods have concocted the whole thing to instill fear and achieve control of others through guilt and shame for their own political and personal ends.

DennisDiehl said...

"I think Lucifer tried this and it didn't work out too well for him."

That's exactly the kind of meme I am talking about that dampens inquiry and controls doubt.

"Well son...you're sounding an awful lot like Satan there aren't you? We know how it went for him."

Translation:

"Oh shit...they're beginning to recognize the problems of Biblical inerrancy and the story behind the story...so lest they eat of the tree of life, and become like one of us....let us ...."

NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said: "Have you brought this to God's attention that He was wrong and should have done things differently?"

"I think Lucifer tried this and it didn't work out too well for him."

Is there anyone who can honestly say that they wouldn't do things differently as God? Sh!t, even in the bible God experiences regret such as; The flood, telling Moses he would destroy Israel and start a new nation from him.

As a believe in God I certainly understand the need to leave room for faith, but with that said, what does the world profit spiritually from deformed children, the mentally retarded, a God powerless to heal amputees, and millions living in abject poverty, totalitarianism??? What does the world profit spiritually from only one nation / people being "chosen" and everyone else is doomed to suffer the punishments prescribed in the bible? What do any of us humans profit spiritually from thousands of different religions and "Singularly True" spins on biblical interpretation???

The only answer is; absolutely nothing!

If God is not the author of confusion, then he did not inspire the bible as we know it. Plain and simple.

If I ever do get to meet God, I have some very pointed questions that demand answers. Fear and trembling my ass, I'm a little ticked...Respectfully, of course :)

The old testament has several stories that would lead you to believe you don't have to do something immediately just becuase God says it...There have been several 'negotiations' Abraham, Jacob, & Moses come immediately to mind.

Anonymous said...

Re: The Surprising God Blog (for WCG ministers only)

They can't get more than a small number of responses on any topic they post. It's the same four ministers and at the first hint of disharmony on the topic, they all start slapping each other on the back and assure each other they are all on the same page.

What a joke. At least here you get great input and something to think about.

Byker Bob said...

Charlie, there is a possible explanation for the issues which you raised, but it's one that most religious folk seem to be unwilling to accept, especially the more legalistically inclined and Pharisee/Nicolaitane types.

The answer is individualized paths to universal salvation, or the restitution of all things. I cannot accept the postulate that the most intelligent being in the universe is incapable of reaching certain people, especially when we read that this all powerful being is not willing to lose a single one of his sheep. Such a being would know the keys to unlock any individual's mind, regardless of their background (such as brainwashing in an ACOG cult), or level of intellect.

If there is a God, I believe that everyone, when they shed Dennis' metaphoric diving suit, is going to find they've made it. Regardless of biblical confusion or conflict, the consistent message of the NT is that the collective sins of mankind have been paid for, in spite of all of us, not because we try to qualify ourselves by adhering to legalism. And, that's all we really need to be able to figure out.

BB

Anonymous said...

"...a God powerless to heal amputees..."

Oh, but he isn't powerless to heal amputees. He supposedly created the entire universe from nothing, so growing a missing leg would be child's play. But he never has. Where does that leave us?

"'The reason God cures thousands of cancers, infections, etc. each day but never intervenes with amputees is because it is not God's will to do that. It is not part of God's plan.'

This explanation seems a little odd. Amputees really do seem to be getting the short end of God's plan if this is the case. If God answers prayers as promised in the Bible, and if God is performing all of the medical miracles that we read about in inspirational literature, then God should also be restoring amputated limbs. Why would God help cancer victims (e.g. Marilyn Hickey's mother) and people bitten by rabid bats (e.g. Jeanna Giese), but discriminate against amputees like this?"

"In a similar vein, many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to ~every~ amputee is ~always~ "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." He does not say, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, unless you are praying about an amputated limb, in which case I will always reject your prayer." Jesus also says, "Nothing will be impossible to you," and regenerating a limb should therefore be possible. The fact that God refuses to answer ~every~ prayer to regenerate a lost limb seems strange, doesn't it?"

"If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes sense in light of the evidence we see in our world."

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm

Paul

DennisDiehl said...

Byker Bob said:

"If there is a God, I believe that everyone, when they shed Dennis' metaphoric diving suit, is going to find they've made it."

You know, I read my own posts and realize I know well what I don't believe and how not to view the Bible. But I'm not just a person who doesn't believe this or that "anymore."

So what DO I believe? What gets me through? I think if you look, it is not difficult to realize that those who seek the most and do so most sincerely become the greatest skeptics when they wake up to the path they had been on that didn't work or make sense any longer.

I belive we are all one small part of the same one great benevolent thing, be that a God, a power , a force, consciousness or spirit in another dimension.

I believe that all we do see is not there is to be seen. Humans come with limited consciousness and filters that are necessary to prevent overload of some kind to ultimate realities.

I believe I'm just fine the way I am. No matter the religion or ceremonial washings, people change very little during the course of thier lives. (witness all the "gotcha's" in politics and religion these days) They may go underground and live two lives to prevent expulsion from the community of believers, but we change little no matter the intent.
People can change from harmful behaviors and rise to normal, but normal to special is just not all that great a trip.

I believe a benevolent something likes me very much and has my best interest in mind in the long run. I believe I have not "tasted" any truth that having found it wanting will earn me eternal damnation.

I may believe in reincarnation and past lives, but I can't prove that personally though the evidence is fascinating. Perhaps, like the K of G, I hope it is so.

I believe we are all equal in every way, male and female.

I believe that most people are sincere and can only be where they are on the path they are on.

I believe I have the right to be wrong.

I believe I have the right not to care.

I believe I am capable of drawing my own conclusions based on the evidence or lack of it.

And I believe I believe in a few things I won't tell you I believe.

And I believe I will stop now because I believe that most don't give a rats ass what I believe :)

DennisDiehl said...

PS and then I shall be still!

I also believe that in the years I have been commenting by name, it strikes me strange that I am the only former full time, AC trained (brainwashed..you're call), former minster that openly shares the trip on AW. From memory, there were 500 or so of us at any one time and many more than that along the way.

Corky said...

Dennis says,

"I also believe that in the years I have been commenting by name, it strikes me strange that I am the only former full time, AC trained . . .former minster that openly shares the trip on AW."

That's because you are a seeker of "the truth", whatever that is, and as Skeet always said, "one of the good ones".

Bamboo_bends said...

DennisDiehl said...

"I think Lucifer tried this and it didn't work out too well for him."

That's exactly the kind of meme I am talking about that dampens inquiry and controls doubt.

"Well son...you're sounding an awful lot like Satan there aren't you? We know how it went for him."

Translation:

"Oh shit...they're beginning to recognize the problems of Biblical inerrancy and the story behind the story...so lest they eat of the tree of life, and become like one of us....let us ...."

NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST




AMEN!

NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST...

THEY'RE ON A COMPLETELY NEW JOURNEY!

But there's quite a few still wandering in circles the desert of Sinai!

Bamboo_bends said...

Being West of Denton makes the UCG land purchase close to the proposed NAFTA Super Tollway ( 1 KM of right-o-way right
through the heart of America along with a water pipeline to bring water from Winnipeg south) financed by King Juan Carlos of Spain!

NASCO NAFTA TOLL ROAD MAP

DennisDiehl said...

Thanks Corky..I have a miserable cold today which is why I am here more. One client this am, and I quit for the day to regroup and recover a bit.

I never felt compelled to apologize for the way I cared for the local folks in my congregations over the years. If it helps, I gave back so much 3'T to the members who got their courage up to ask that I got a warning letter from HQ..ha. Hey, it's your money I figured.

I have my regrets of course, both personal and corporate. Life does what it does and as I always say and is said to me when I get a bit blue over it all..."you had to be there, so you can be here."

I know my strengths, personality type and foibles very very well after years of exploring it and having it done for me with and without my permission. Everyone is who they are and the same experience can effect each very differently for sure.

During my tenure at the last congregation I ever pastored and during the transition years of Joe Tkach Sr. to Jr and all that followed, I was very depressed and searching for some kind way out at my age. I ended up spending a couple weeks in a nice get over depression place and replaced for a bit as local minister. Then I came back "good as new"..har har, and outgrew it all.

The compassionate HQ team accused me, while in counseling at the hospital, of hiding out. You gotta love em!

I deeply regret having a large amount of concern tempered with a very small sphere of influence.

At any rate, it all worked out and I lived hap...I lived. :)

Ok, my head hurts, my ears ache, I'm tired, drugged and woozy. I tend to share too much at times when tired. Or so I am told :)

Anonymous said...

Don't worry about sharing too much Dennis. I think most of us here enjoy reading your thoughts (with the exception of an a.h. or two). I know I sure do.

I'm an anon. reader who doesn't post much (like many others I'm sure), and reading yours and others posts have helped me out a great deal. I just left the fleeced fold about a year ago, and it's been tough looking at life without Armstrong lenses on. So, thanks to you and guys like BB and Gavin of course for taking the time to share on this forum. It is time well spent, and it's appreciated.

Okay, a couple questions for you Dennis. You said:

"I may believe in reincarnation and past lives, but I can't prove that personally though the evidence is fascinating. Perhaps, like the K of G, I hope it is so."

Why in the world would you want to come back and do this all over again? Personally, I really hope there is no reincarnation. I want to get this physical portion of the journey over with so I can move on to something greater. What if the reincarnation process is totally random? What if you come back as a bottom of the food chain life form a million times over?!

Second question:

How did you migrate into the PT profession? Is it something you did before you became a minister?

Thanks, and get well soon!

DennisDiehl said...

"Why in the world would you want to come back and do this all over again?"

Well, I would be hoping for a better go at it..ha. The idea is that we agree prior to our own incarnation to have the experiences we have. How could I possibly know that was true? I can't. I do know I must have been drinking when I wrote the current script!

There are fascinating accounts of children's past life memories before they loose it to the current life. Near death experiences are interesting as well as well as transplant patient/donor memory accounts. who knows?

Actually, I have no idea what can be or not be. I have hope but if we are conscious hairless apes...so be it.

I got into therapeutic massage because it's another way I tend to caretake. My meyers/briggs is ENFP which is Extrovert, Intuitive, Feeling and Perceptive, and which Ihave known is my type for decades. This is about 2% of the population and people with this profile migrate towards counseling, negotiators because they see both sides of issues, pastors, priests and of all things, I just saw this on a new list, massage therapists! I haven't strayed far from who I am I suppose.

I recommended to Joe Jr. years ago that all ministers and ministers to be take such a profile to see if they are ministry compatible. No dice! The rest is history.

I love the work, the quiet, the talk and encouragement I can give and the eclectic types who even bother to take care with good therapeutic massage. I like being that trusted and providing a safe haven I suppose. I get more authentic "counseling" done with that table than ever with a suit and tie. Back then, people told me what they thought I needed to hear and I heard what I thought they needed to say. Not very genuine stuff in the long run.

I like it when someone calls with pain and leaves without it or a bit less.

I haven't changed a bit.

Besides, Joe Jr. joked to a friend that an ex minister could only get a job at Walmart, so I had to prove him wrong...:) I can do that later.

DennisDiehl said...

PS Actually I was one step away from Paramedic during the last few years of my ministry. I got my brown belt in Karate as well before having to move just prior to a black belt.

But I was able to tell the last church I pastored that I was qualified to marry them, bury them, fix them and kick their ass if need be...oh well, I thought it was funny

Byker Bob said...

Dennis,

It was good of you to elaborate on your journey and beliefs. Also, I hope you get over your cold or flu quickly and completely.

I mentioned your diving suit because I always thought it was a very effective tool in illustrating the nature of the soul, and what happens at the time of death.

One book which I'm currently reading compares death with leaving one room which contains a number of friends, and going up the hall to another room containing a different group of friends. The writer of the book relates that prior to the widespread usage of sedatives, it was not unusual for a person who was breathing his last gasps of air on planet Earth to begin conversing with people whom he/she was beginning to see. These people were sometimes known by the listeners in the room to be friends or family members who had preceded this individual in death.

Also, for those who have never studied Edgar Cayce, it may be surprising, but the fact is that one can still be of the Christian faith and believe in reincarnation, or successive lives. Edgar Cayce taught that as long as one accepted Jesus Christ during one of the sequential lives, that person would make it into the kingdom. Reincarnation was seen by Cayce as being a gradual process of education and perfection, with a judgement or evaluation by God following each life. Then the memory would be blanked, the soul would be sent back to live again, and to correct any remaining deficiencies, often on the buddy system with the same group of individuals as in the previous lives.

There was even a creative, and somewhat speculative collection of scriptures put together to support the concept of successive lives.

BB

DennisDiehl said...

That's a good summary of it Bob. When we consider the miniscule slice of time human adults have to "get it right or else" with hundreds of millions of years in the past and eternity ahead, it's pretty laughable to think of it all.

I can't imagine eternity with fundamentalists...that would be hell.

Anonymous said...

Dennis, have you considered having a minister annoint you for your cold? While God has a 100% failure rate for healing amputees, his cold/flu healing abilities are remarkable.




Paul

Jordan Potter said...

god (sic) assisted slaughter of innocent (sic) civilizations who happened to have a different (sic) religion than the Isrealites (sic)

You mean the "innocent" civilizations that sacrificed their children to idols, that practiced infanticide, abortion, sexual immorality, temple prostitution, bestiality, and every imaginable vice and crime as well as others difficult and unpleasant to imagine? That treated violence as a form of entertainment? Yeah, that sounds "innocent" to me. (Sounds rather like the world we live in today.)

Anonymous said...

I'm glad that Tom is taking a breather in order to enturbulate his body thetans.

Anonymous said...

Jordan Potter said...
god (sic) assisted slaughter of innocent (sic) civilizations who happened to have a different (sic) religion than the Isrealites (sic)

You mean the "innocent" civilizations that sacrificed their children to idols, that practiced infanticide, abortion, sexual immorality, temple prostitution, bestiality, and every imaginable vice and crime as well as others difficult and unpleasant to imagine? That treated violence as a form of entertainment? Yeah, that sounds "innocent" to me. (Sounds rather like the world we live in today.)

Gods best prophets practiced human sacrifice. The abortion you mention was commanded by god. He said to slaughter the women with child and to rip their babies out of their arms and murder them.

Just read about the best of gods followers if you want a description of child sacrifice, sexual immorality and every vile act imaginable. Even god practiced child sacrifice, the hipocrite. Most of gods victims were not as you described, most were civilized humans who loved their families and built civlizations that the isrealites could never duplicate, only destroy.

They were innocent in that they were no worse than gods chosen ones, and usually better. But god insisted on their genocide anyway. You would have thought he would have tried speaking to them first, but no, just a simple kill them all!! No pity, no mercy. If any of his followers showed pity then god plagues his followers until he removed all pity from them.

SmilinJackSprat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SmilinJackSprat said...

Dennis Diehl said, "Paul lied about what was said at the Acts 15 Conference. He had no intention of enforcing most Noahide rules on the Corinithians and didn't. Luke made him look compliant but Paul's writings tell another story."

That's a stunner for me.

Late in the Acts account Paul still insists not only that he is a Pharisee, but also a Roman. Later still he says he has never done anything contrary to the "customs of our fathers." To have ignored teaching the Noahide lifestyle, insofar as it had been developed and taught in his time, would have been blatant rejection of Pharisee teaching.

Noahide Laws are considered natural, and discernable to people of good will in any decent society. "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law (Torah), do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves."

In the context of Paul's work, knowing his Gentile followers expected from him teachings commensurate with the Jesus movement, he could have been seen as teaching against the empire itself if he had taught against the Noahide laws. Most of these laws must have naturally been part and parcel with Roman society: no theft, no murder, no eating the limbs of living animals, no sexual immorality, the requirement of a judicial system, no idolatry, no blasphemy. I seriously doubt that Paul required less of his Gentile followers than what we now refer to as Noahide laws.

Indeed, it seems fairly obvious that Paul's ministry to Gentiles was based upon the Pharisaical teachings of the House of Hillel (Gamaliel was Hillel's grandson) who flatly rejected the House of Shammai's ruling that no Gentile could enter the world-to-come. Paul had to constantly argue against representatives of the Shammai party who insisted that in order to enter the world-to-come Gentiles had to become Jewish (circumcised).

The Hillel position was, and still is, that any non-Jew who accepts and lives by the Noahide laws is considered a "righteous Gentile," completely acceptable for the world-to-come -- and completely equal in acceptability to the righteous Jew.

Remember, in those days Christianity was still a movement within Judaism.

Dennis, I can't imagine why you think Paul rejected or ignored the Noahide laws. When you find a moment, would you please elaborate?

DennisDiehl said...

"Dennis, I can't imagine why you think Paul rejected or ignored the Noahide laws. When you find a moment, would you please elaborate?"

I was to general in that comment. I was thinking specifically of staying away from food offered to idols which he clearly told the Corinthians was not necessary and "in all men is not that knowledge" referring no doubt to the Jerusalem prohibition and such. Paul had to live with the realities of gentile practices so seems to have struck a balance.
I Cor 8

Paul is such an enigma to many. So many contradictions about his being an apostle, his calling, the way of his calling, how called, how he 'saw' Jesus and even the fact that he was not a pharisee at all but a gentile as he seems to admit in the slip in Galatians.

"Christ redeemed US from the curse of the law, having become a curse for US – for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree.” – that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the GENTILES, that WE might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:13,14).

The "we" may be telling and a


I don't refer to the obvious things in the Noahide rules. Sorry for the overstatement. It's in the context of many of Paul's questionable habits.

DennisDiehl said...

PS

Paul was recorded as allowing himself to give an outward impression of adherence to James views on Torah etc. There were rumours of Paul's duplicity to the Church as headed by James.

Apparently James was concerned about what the “thousands” of zealous Jewish Christians might perceive of Paul if he spoke out against the observance of the Law. James orders Paul to “Go with them to the Temple and join them in the purification ceremony, and pay for them to have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that the RUMORS are all FALSE and that you yourself OBSERVE THE JEWISH LAWS” (New Living Translation, Acts 21:24).

Although Paul submits to James' requirements in the book of Acts, he vehemently opposes all Torah restrictions in Galatians, calling the Law “bondage,” a “curse” and “nailed to the cross.”

Thus Paul's hypocrisy is manifested in his apparent allegiance to the Mosaic laws by action and subsequent renunciation of them by words.

It's a huge topic and I can't recommend Freudman's book, Anti-Semitism in the NT enough. She takes Paul's terrible view of Judaism apart and his misuse of Jewish scripture to promote his view of Jesus and all the consequences.

Corky said...

Dennis,

Hope you're feeling better today. Colds can be soooo miserable.

Whoever wrote the account of Paul's conversion in Acts evidently had not read Paul's own account of it in Galations. If the writer of Acts was Luke, Paul's companion, he would not have made that mistake.

I doubt that Paul ever said that he was a Pharisee. That part in his letter to the Philippians is probably a forgery. He could not have been a student of Gamaliel because he disobeyed Gamaliel's words in Acts by persecuting Christians.

I think that Paul of Tarsus, who is unknown to history, was really Apollonius of Tyana - who is known to history.

http://www.hwarmstrong.com/jesus-in-history-3.htm

Robert said...

From Jews for Judaism:
Da Vinca Code, A Jewish Perspective by Michael Skobac.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/DaVinciCodeBook.pdf

THE MUTING OF JAMES

As the Gentile Church propagated by Paul quickly grew, it
overcame the original Jewish Jesus movement and became the
dominant voice of Christianity.

Torah observance was completely
jettisoned for doctrines about Jesus’ divinity and atoning death.
The chasm between the two groups widened to the point where
ultimately, the leaders of Paul’s new Christianity branded the
Jewish followers of Jesus as heretics and actively persecuted them.

The dominant voice of today’s Christian Bible is clearly Paul’s,
either through his letters and epistles or through the writings of others under his influence.

What a stunning example of history
being written by the victors! For all intents and purposes,
Christianity as we know it today is an invention of Paul. And all
this, despite the fact that Paul never even met Jesus!

No wonder the Epistle (Letter) of James is the most neglected
and marginalized book in the Christian Bible! It is rarely encountered in Church readings, and many Christians are unaware that it even exists. There was actually great controversy regarding the inclusion of James’ Epistle in the Christian canon while it was being assembled in the 3rd to 6th centuries. Martin Luther, architect of the Protestant Reformation, had a very low opinion of this Epistle.
He referred to it as “the straw Epistle” and preferred its exclusion from the canon.

When we examine James’ Letter, it is easy to understand why the historical Christian Church has been so uncomfortable with it.
There is no mention of any of the doctrines that are so central to
Paul’s teaching, such as Jesus’ divinity or atoning death. Whereas
James stresses the ethical teachings and message of Jesus, Paul’s emphasis is on Jesus as the message. Whereas Paul negates the importance of observing the Torah and maintains that salvation is exclusively through faith, James has a very Torah-positive message and insists that “faith without works is dead!” and that “man is
justified by works, and not by faith alone” (2:17, 24).41

Byker Bob said...

It's difficult to sift through the many things which went on during the first century. There was the "church unto the Jews" (seemingly James was responsible for these folks), and the "church unto the Gentiles" (with Paul being the apostle to the gentiles)

As WCG members, we were blinded to the controversies between the apostles which were recorded as subtle undertones in the New Testament. HWA taught that Simon Magus was responsible for changing Christianity, and for starting the Catholic Church, when in reality the RCC sprang directly from the "church unto the Gentiles." HWA also made a ham fisted attempt to harmonize the teachings of Paul with those of James and some of the other Jerusalem apostles, but it never really made sense. You really had to distort the words of Paul, and to say that he meant the exact opposite of what he said in order to believe he was in agreement with the "church unto the Jews."

I don't ever recall the word "Noahide" being used in sermons by WCG ministers. I only got through three years of Bible class at AC, but don't recall that word being used in any of the supposedly in depth studies in which we were indulged there, either.

Based on this alone, we can certainly see why there are so many churches during our modern times. It all becomes so confusing, which is probably why some throw up their hands, take everything back to the very basic and the very beginnings, and place their trust exclusively in the Torah.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Oh, and PS: Further muddying up the waters, British Israelism, an unprovable theory, would seem to attempt to place all of us with Anglo Saxon blood pumping through our veins into the Jewish camp. By Paul's definitions, this would mean that the stricter Jewish laws applied to all of us, as opposed to the Noahide laws which he taught to the gentiles.

Is there no end to the confusion?
Seems like there are three macro options: 1) Rely on the Torah. 2) Cut off the New Testament at the end of the gospel of John; or 3) Take the teachings of Paul, assuming that he offered the latest information, and the true interpretation of the meaning of Christ, and that all which came before was nailed to the cross at Calvary.

As Mick Jagger sang, "What can a poor boy do, except play in a rock n roll band?"

BB

Anonymous said...

Ah yes, the old BI thing rears its head again...

BB: Be on the lookout for a post from Saint Tom asking you where your proof is that BI is unprovable. He has a big skip in his record on that subject.

I'm part German, does that make me an Assyrian??? Or is that outdone by my English, Irish, and Italian ancestry? What about my kids? They have ancestry from all parts of Europe and parts of western Russia??? There isn't any French that we know of (Thank God for that) :)

I've often wondered what the WCG said to any church member in Germany? I can imagine sitting there and thinking that if I don't go to the place of safety, at least I'm on the "Giving" side of the tribulation versus "Get". >Chuckle<

Dennis, do you know?

Anonymous said...

"I don't ever recall the word "Noahide" being used in sermons by WCG ministers. I only got through three years of Bible class at AC, but don't recall that word being used in any of the supposedly in depth studies in which we were indulged there, either."

Nothing against you BB, but Biblical studies at AC weren't worth a crap.

Byker Bob said...

Anonymous: Yes! I've been discovering that for the past 5 years. It is just astounding what we were not taught in AC Bible classes! Or the error that we were taught as truth!

I'm glad about one aspect of my WCG/AC involvement. It did act as a stimulus towards asking some of the deep philosophical questions basic to life. Even though the spoonfed answers were unsatisfying, manipulative, and just plain ignorant, I'm thankful that witnessing what was wrong, and what always produced bad results, finally provided the motivation to be a seeker of the truth.

BB

Anonymous said...

Krum/Denton, TX...this is a good place for United...the Meth-Ice capital of Texas! Why was there a need to move? There are serious problems in UCG and the Dallas United Church of God congration of poor leadership, etc...and yet nothing is done about personnel issues...everyone's afraid of stepping on one anothers toes instead of dealing with the real issues! Correct the problems at hand and then get on with spreading the gospel...UCG Dallas congration, there are more and more people that are upset about the lack of direction and being activitied to death! What ever happened to the scripture that went, 'it is those that are sick that need a physician'?

Anonymous said...

The latest word on the street is that five UCG council members submitted to the secretary recently a resolution to be placed on the GCE 2008 May ballot to rescind this relocation vote taken in May of 2007. So will the move happen? Remains to be seen. Apparently it was not a unanimous vote from the council to relocate as stated.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"I don't ever recall the word "Noahide" being used in sermons by WCG ministers.



They often mistook the term for Naugahyde.

Stuart Dooley said...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/19/btsc.tuchman.roadsideprayer/index.html

Some see connection between the Bible and Interstate 35

The New UCG headquarters is right off I-35 in Denton and PCG is a mile or 2 off I-35 in Edmond.