Saturday, 8 December 2007

Clarion Call for Poverty


A report appears on Bob Thiel's site, dated December 7, with excerpts from a November 3 sermon by Apostle David C. Pack of the Restored Church of God. Not surprisingly, this sermon does not seem to be available on the RCG website. These transcripts come from the COGwriter site. Bob notes: "The following are approximate quotes (I tried to type verbatim and the following is fairly close) ..."
"Yeah, I know, one or two can leave and say, 'Hey, you stopped preaching and started meddling, now you're messing with my goods here on earth' "
"First Timothy 6 verse 17...'Charge them that are rich in this world'...If you were born in the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, then you're rich"
"If you hold those riches, I'm telling you, you trust in them"
"Go get a big chunk out of your home. And put your money where your mouth is and send it here. And I'm not talking about one, two, three thousand either. How about ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, or one hundred thousand dollars? Go do it."
"Wives, you can be independent in this. You have 1/2 the worth of whatever you have in your house.
I'm officially telling you this...Wives, legally you have the 1/2 the funds. What are you going to do about it?...Husbands...'well, my wife is not in the church'...tell her...'you don't have a voice woman' "
"Go get those assets and get them here"
"Don't sit on vast resources that we can use now"
"We are not a splinter"
"I do not covet your silver or gold...the gold and silver is God's and He will get it someway"
"We do not have the funds...plans...bookstores...We need to redesign our website...We need many hundreds of thousands of dollars to arrive at God's headquarters soon...the timing is now"
"This is different...ask Him for the faith to liquidate certain assets and give it to the work"
"I'll say it again, we are talking about liquidating existing all belongs to God and the brethren"
"We have a lot of plans so big going on in this office it would cause just this room to to rock and gyrate if you knew what was going on. We just need a lot of money and we need it post haste...I would give more if I had it"
"Herbert Armstrong wrote an article...'Prepare to greatly reduce your standard of living'...What he wrote by far, is more for us now than it was then... its all going to be taken away from us anyway brethren"
"There will be follow-up sermons. Time to bring in related points"
"Let us know how much you plan to send and when you plan to send it...You must be willing to communicate... If you do need to counsel, please do that...If you are not ready to distribute what you don't believe the flow of prophecy"
"This is announcing the last blast, the clarion call as it were, to finish the work...Whether it is 4,5,7, 9 years to go, God knows...This is liquidating assets...I have the authority to tell you to do it... I have the moral and spiritual, and ecclesiastical authority to tell you to do what I have also done"
"Get it now when it requires faith... when you are dead you don't need it... if you named us in your wills, it can take us months or years to get it"
"The wives in the faith will say give everything you can...We don't have the luxury of waiting, leaving everything in your will simply doesn't work"
"Now you just have a second mortgage... and frankly we flee before most of it ever becomes due"
"...some may think that they want to tap their 401k--maybe you want to let us know that... why would you want to tell us? We are starting to prepare a budget now, the needs are would be nice to know now"
"Think big...Pull big triggers"
"There is only two positions you can take regarding all that I have mentioned, only two, there is no middle ground. You're either going to yield, to submit and to follow, the clarion call that the time is now or you're not. And postponing a decision is deciding not to do it...It's saying I'm going to wait until it gets closer because it is not there yet...Don't say that I'm going to wait until it gets closer, when I can see...The decision is that my treasure stays on earth or I goes to heaven. Period. I will not lay up for times to come or I will. And this is the real test of Laodicea... either hold on to your assets... or give it... God is in this decision, no question. Testing the church's faith"
"We live in the most materialistic age in the history of the world. People trust in physical things. They trust in bank accounts...If you have excess and don't need it, those verses mean you...That's the Laodicean attitude...Put your money where your mouth is...Empty your assets"
"There is only one place He works...Where is...that's where God is elder commented here at headquarters, if people can't be motivated by a clarion call to finish the work such as this, why will those same people somehow believe the internal signal given to the church of the 1335? Why would they believe it?"
"This is the Laodicean age...Be careful that you don't tell us how to spend your assets... It belongs to God.. You don't tell God or His servants how to spend it"
"Your faith is being tested. Think about that"
"We will all fast on November 17th...I have to...ask you for a very special financial sacrifice for God's work"
"The purposes of the fast...(a). To fast for God's intervention...(b).Fast for personal faith and courage to follow what I am asking you to do...(c). Fast for personal strength...(d)...Fast for faith and courage in others with more than you to give...Go get a big chunk out of your house...their assets, IRAs, and pension funds...(e). Ask God to move specific properties...that they have told us they want to sell. Pray that these properties move...that is part of what this fast is about"
Anyone even slightly tempted to give way to this bullying might wish to first pause and ask themselves whether Pack - who says he's set an example - will be selling up his home and moving into a trailer park.

Where's Gary Scott when we need him?


Anonymous said...

The following is an excerpt from my unpublished essay "My Worldwide Church of God Reflections - 1972 In Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?"

My sermon notes of October 11, 1971from the Feast of Tabernacles in Mount Pocono record the offerings made by members in attendance to be $254,000, plus two diamond rings and a gold bracelet. In today’s dollars, that would equate to more than ½ million dollars. In retrospect, the opportunity for wolves to skim money (tax free) from the unsuspecting sheep was incredible and I am sure this is what motivates certain people to go into the religion business!

End of Excerpt


Douglas Becker said...

What's in it for me?

Seems Like a Sweet Kitty

My cat is 18 years old, and just 16 months from becoming a Twenty-Something. For background for what follows, you may want to look at the following web page, if you have not done so thus far:

60 Minutes: Twenty Somethings -- The "Millennials" Are Coming.

My cat is typical of a Millennial: His priority is himself, followed by family and friends. He wants to be praised. If he can get a better deal, he will leave. Even though he is nice, no one should make the mistake that he is willing to sacrifice for others and he is very much determined to live his life on his own terms.

It should be very clear that hard, harsh, critical, demanding, hypocritical Republican dog owning cultmeisters are not for him. He finds them beneath his interests and nothing can persuade him to submit himself to their authority.

And why should he?

It certainly would not be in his best interest.

And so it is with the generation of the Twenty-Something humans: They find most of those over thirty incoherent. How much more authoritative fools and morons in their Sixties and Seventies demanding sacrifices for no particularly good reason.

Byker Bob said...

Well, as I mentioned to my friends at WCG Alumni Forum, where FYI opened a post on this topic, this latest action by David Pack most definitely places him a notch or two above Gerald Flurry on our Kool-Aid betting pool.

It will be tragic if even one or two of Pack's members comply. We must remember, these folks are already paying three tithes plus offerings, and in some cases probably even using their credit cards to do so. Where is the evidence that God or Jesus even know about Pack, let alone work through him? All he's done is build a microscopic scale model of Herbert W. Armstrong's church, and we all know that HWA's church has come to naught. Why mortgage your home to enable Pack in his delusion, when RCG is going to suffer the same fate as the church it was built to emulate?

David should have stuck to selling vitamins. He squandered his and his brother's inheritance on his useless "work", and now he expects others to support him with theirs, and their childrens'. To any RCG people who read here: 1) How long has your "Apostle" been attempting to get his work going? 2) How long did it take John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, or any of the Biblical human tools of God to attract major attention? Hint: If God is truly working through someone, the reaction is nearly instant!


Douglas Becker said...

So, Byker Bob, are you referring to that old saw about adding 3,000 in one day?

That's at least 10 times what Pack has now.

Strange though, as you said, how God seems to be ignoring him and his peers and their works are coming to nothing.

Why won't God intervene? Why? Why? Why?

Taking vitamins, or selling them?

Douglas Becker said...

It occurs to me that David Pack would have just the tiniest fraction of a hint of a whisper of increased credibility if his own son were with him.

Bamboo_bends said...

How very sad.

Miguel de la Rodente said...


If Pack's son were with him, according to the original WCG model, he'd help Dave build the empire, but then he'd need to fall prey to his sexual temptations, and Dave would have to mark and disfellowship him. The son would then move to another state and begin preaching a more moderate set of doctrines. Dave would then lapse into alcoholism, and find a lawyer and former Japanese taxi driver to accompany him as he flew around the world to meet dignitaries whom the taxi driver bribed, so that pictures could be taken and published in Dave's magazine to go along with the pictures of bloated and starving African babies.

Douglas Becker said...

Dave would then lapse into alcoholism, and find a lawyer

He would not have to go very far to find a lawyer. He shares the facility with lawyers and other professionals [construction company, dentists (handy, since he is getting rather long in the tooth), etc].

It's hard to say why our illustrious Mr. Pack would need the money, since he rents the facilities and shares them to cut down on expenses. The troubling thing is that he makes it seem that Restored owns the facilities if you don't look carefully.

Though I doubt that he is an alcoholic, if he were, he could always employ rational recovery, since it's apparent that he would not have much help from the Holy Spirit -- for if he had, he would not be in such financial trouble.

Of course, to employ the aphorism used by Sampson, Dave Pack is really low for "plowing with the heifers" of the husbands of church members. It's "force your husband to give your money to me by virtue you own half". Isn't that a little like nonsexual adultery?

Then again, Dr. Robert Thiel is reporting all this. And we know just how accurate he is.

I conclude by this incisive commentary by our good friend Mark Lax:


Today the RCG occupies an entire floor of a small Ohio office building where David C. Pack lords over a staff of temps. He has weekly Sabbath services and, at whim, publishes and makes broadcasts over the internet. The RCG saves somewhat on expenses by sharing its office space with an attorney who doubles as Pack's church counsel and occasional co-author. (The attorney's latest manual deals with the lofty subject of how to leave the RCG your estate.) Cox, by contrast, operates CCG out of his den and numerous post office boxes.

Given that Cox is operating a bit more lean and mean than Pack, and that both churches are of equal size, one would think that Cox is clearing more. That Cox is probably clearing less and is in more danger of having his organ die is due to a distinction in style. Both Pack and Cox are dim-witted, mean-spirited, autocratic blow hards. But Pack is a pro. Cox has spent a comparatively small fortune to create his clunky, amateurish and still not done web presence. Pack has a state of the art web site, publishing and broadcast arm that he has effectively paid no money to set up and which plugs in his content professionally and at whim. Mr. Pack, you see, knows how to steal. Cox, by contrast, has invested money and effort in subverting the web sites of others.

Neither RCG or CCG are long for this world. In the case of RCG, its lack of longevity has more to do with demographics than anything else. Pack is pushing 70 and his followers are of a similar vintage. There is no real plan to continue the enterprise and in if Pack should become incapacitated, RCG will fold shop. The entire purpose of RCG is to get Pack out of the house for 40 hours a week. Which may not be the least noble purpose in the world, but you would have to ask Mrs. Pack, who stays as far away from the church as she can. Cox, who is much younger, is imploding due to being spendthrift and unfocused.


All Armstrongist Churches today practice Trans-Armstrongism, which was founded in doctrine by HWA himself. It is revisionist history that discounts mistakes made in the past by saying that they did not happen, or if they did happen, it was not our fault. Now let us go on with being a force for change today. It was through this process that America's End Time Apostle was able to transform himself from a flake ball, curious radio preacher and head of a college to a traveling cultural ambassador for peace under a centralized world government. What was that about the Pope being Satan and the coming invasion of the EU and great tribulation? Huh? That was another Herbert W. Armstrong. He had no real time to explain that everything he had once said or stood for was demonstrably false. And for his last trick, he wrote Mystery of The Ages, wherein he was right all the time. Hell of a trick.

People who blame Joe Sr. for the disintegration of the WCG are misplacing their anger. The seeds of its destruction can be placed squarely at the feet of its cruel, uncaring and weird founder. It is like a religious order founded by Rasputin the Monk. Say what you want about the son of a bitch, but he had stamina. The blinding grandness of his achievements are only overshadowed by how dubious it was at all levels. It was a shrine to his ego built on the backs of people Dr. Meredith described as "the cream of the scum of the earth" and whom HWA reportedly called "dumb sheep". That a ministry of 50 years should not produce, even by accident, one single humanitarian good work is incredible. That no one else can recreate it in scale or function is justice. Or maybe HWA's curse.


Armstrongists are unfortunately used to not having real fellowship. At its height, what went on in the rented halls miles from home was not anything anyone on the outside would call a church service. Three plus hours of vitriol and `get the point'. For drama, we have disfellowship spin the bottle and gossip from the pulpit. Reducing church services to one [to three] feast meeting[s] a year is probably a relief more than anything else. How badly can you be abused in a conference call or over the internet? Like many Trans-Armstrongist peddlers, RCG and CCG have abandoned all church functions other than the publishing of dogma, collecting of tithes and, of course, the all important making of Feast arrangements. Without knowing the people involved, I sincerely doubt anyone attending the feasts at either would be able to tell the difference....

Until Mr. Cox opens his mouth. All Trans-Armstrongists have their own gimmick. Dr. Meredith has never left the World Tomorrow--and is ready to kick out all the homos and blacks when they get there. Gerry Flurry is God. David C. Pack is the watchman. Mark Armstrong can read the exit sign without assistance.

Lussenheide said...

Anyone want to tell me how these insane demands of Pack are very much different that the last few words of the Rev. Jim Jones right before they committed SUICIDE in the Guyana jungle??...

(Jim Jones)..."death is a million times preferable to ten more days of this life. If you knew what was ahead of you, if you knew what was ahead of you, you'd be glad to be stepping over tonight. Death, death, death is common to people ... and the Eskimos, they take death in their stride. Let's, let's be dignified. If you'll quit telling them they're dying, if you adults will stop some of this nonsense ... Adults, adults, adults, I call on you to stop this nonsense. I call on you to quit exciting your children when all they're doing is going to a quiet rest. I call on you to stop this now. If you have any respect at all... Are we black, proud and Socialist, or what are we? Now stop this nonsense, don't carry this on any more,... Hurry, hurry my children, hurry. All I say, let's not fall in the hands of the enemy. Hurry, my children. Hurry ... there are seniors out here that I'm concerned about. Hurry, I don't want to leave my seniors to this mess. Quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly ...Must trust, you have to step across ... We used to sing: "this world, this world's not our home." Well, it sure isn't. ... We were saying, it sure wasn't ... Really doesn't want, you're telling me. All he's doing is what we'll tell him. Assure these ... Can some people assure these children of the relaxation of stepping over to the next plane? That'd set an example for others. You set 1,000 people who say, "We don't like the way the world is .... take our life from us, we laid it down, we got tired. We didn't commit suicide. We committed an act of revolutionary suicide protesting the conditions of an inhumane world"

I am very worried about the Pack and Flurry Groups membership and children.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...


The end will come some time. But, remember that the Worldwide Church of God under Herbert W. Armstrong was wrong for 52 years about just WHEN it will be. Since Herbert's death, an additional 20 years have passed.

David C. Pack is so cheap that he won't even send out free literature to sincere people who request it, yet he wants them to give him their houses!

The purpose of such leaders seems to be to financially and spiritually destroy those who believe in God and just want to support the truth of God.

Ignore David's thousands of pages of writing and hundreds of hours of talking. Go read the Bible itself. Spend your efforts trying to obey the good laws of God in your own daily life, rather than spend your money supporting the many false prophets that Jesus warned would come.

Douglas Becker said...

Be sure to advise the congressman who comes to research the group to wear Kevlar body armor and bring body guards as a minimum precaution.

David Pack must really be desperate and is probably the first of the major [in the sense of vocal] declining church of gods to go the way of the Dodo -- and for many of the same reasons.

Douglas Becker said...

In this case, for the members of David Pack's little cult, the sin of rebellion is the only godly thing to do.

minimalist said...

Dave is right about one thing: RCG website SUX !

The Home page is a disaster.

And no Streaming for Audio/Video ??!

Dave, please beat up the members & spend the big bucks it'll take to fix this so that we can easily watch your fanatical videos :-)

DennisDiehl said...

I would take this as some kind of deterioration in Dave Packs mental state since the death of his wife.

Transferance of personal anger and taunting members to show the faith he thinks he did that took his wife to her death.

I think the timing is about right in the process that for most is normal but for Dave will be spectacular and self centered.

"it all belongs to God and the brethren"

This bold foolishness should be taken as a serious sign of emotional problems with their pastor. Just how foolish are the members of RCG? We're about to find out.


Anonymous said...

kooks like Pack will bring the Feds down on the COG's, just as they are investigating the "blab it and grab it" preachers now.

the saddest part of it is that someone will actually liquidate their assets and send them to Pack.

Anonymous said...

What amazes me is that, based on the size of his microsplinter, normally in WCG, a flock the size of his would have been assigned to a local elder, or at most, a preaching elder. Yet, Pack, with his website and prolific writing, calls himself an Apostle.

BTW, his mental condition might have been more understandable if he were approaching 70 as suggested above. Reality is, he's approaching 60. The man is a baby boomer.

It must really be a bitter pill for Dave to take, knowing the incredible growth Joel Osteen has experienced in Texas. Maybe UCG wants to move down there to escape the lightening bolts that will soon be hitting Wadsworth, Ohio, and to get in on some of the growth themselves!

Bamboo_bends said...

Selling apocalypse is a lot like the funeral business.

It may appeal to those approaching the end, but it totally depresses young people looking forward to a long prosperous life.

As greedy as these ministers are, you'd think they'd wake up to the basic market economics of their theology.

Demographics and statistics are not on their side, neither is their prophetic record.

Anonymous said...

Bamboo bends,

Thank you for your post. I could personally relate to "It may appeal to those approaching the end, but it totally depresses young people looking forward to a long prosperous life".

Here is another excerpt from my unpublished essay, "Reflections on the Worldwide Church of God - 1972 In Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?":

No Man Is An Island?

Second, I look back on my Church experience and I now realize how unnatural my own youth was. I literally grew up old! Let’s face it: The impending world destruction and “the end of the world” is pretty heavy stuff. Having Armstrong’s influence first introduced to me at age 7, I was “an old 20” by the time I realized Armstrong might not be right and I finally stopped attending this unhealthy church.

In life, there is a time to be young and a time to be old. I feel I missed out on my youth and look back with much regret for my lost youth. I suffered from severe depression often during what should have been the best years of my life because I didn’t see any future for me and always felt “time was very short” as Armstrong said.

Compounding the hopeless feelings, I also grew up feeling that I was different from other kids. I felt very inferior – I believe it was the partial effect of the periodic reminders of the Church’s teaching that I was “the weak of the world”, “a base thing”. I had virtually no friends in school because they were all “in the world”. We didn’t associate with people outside the Church, and I did not participate in any school activities. I remember I use to ask myself, “Why me?”

Additionally, I had the very heavy burden and grave knowledge of the impending 1972 great tribulation and the destruction of the whole world thinking all my classmates would soon be dead! Thus, I trace the origins of becoming a “loner in life” to my Worldwide Church experience (I’ve spent most of my adult life single and alone. At age 39, I had my only real relationship that lasted only 4 years but did produce a wonderful daughter).

End of Excerpt

If I keep posting my unpublished essay on this website, it will soon be published!


Douglas Becker said...

The Teleology Ethic of Armstrongism

Here is yet another example of "The Utility Principle" -- the ethic wherein the end justifies the means.

This is the basis of Armstrongism: The outcome is the Kingdom of God, so we can lie, cheat, steal, deceive, victimize, manipulate, all for the glory of achieving the end. It's the gooey center with the crisp outsides. Accountability is limited to results. Carried to an extreme -- and extremes are fundamental to Armstrongism -- this ethic will lead to superstition, which it certainly has with a rich mythology built upon British Israelism. Lies and deceptions may be employed as long as the desired results are achieved [we preach one thing to outsiders and another to members]. Teleology may result in ethical anomalous dichotomies.

Motto: It it's going to work out, do it!

These perspectives are often accompanied by the frequent exclamation prompted by exacerbated conditions:

Shoot, what do we do now?!?!

Those with this ethic may seem benign but the results are tragic, particularly when carried to an extreme -- and in religion they always are.

For the Armstrongists out there still deluded by thinking that something good is going to come of this ethic, they should consider Islam and compare it to their own belief system to see where things are going.

Now then. David Pack believes he is The End Time Apostle. He has a work to do. It all -- in his deluded distorted perception -- all comes down to him and him alone. No one else can or will do this grandiose work which has been thrust upon him. He is now faced with the death of his wife, a generalized failure to achieve what he thinks is getting him to his goal and panic has set in. Now it is time for the members to...

Show me the money!

No matter how this ends, the ethic that the end justifies the means always dictates sacrifice in the extreme. It's high maintenance. It's high impact. It's resource intensive.

And a little planning could have gone a long way.

Moreover, now that it's obvious that David Pack has not counted the cost, he stands upon the mountain with Elijah mocking him: Perhaps your god is sleeping or on vacation.

The fast on November 17th apparently was not enough, because as sure as death, hell, taxes, revenge and the fury of a woman scorned, it's not working.

And that's absolutely no good for 2008 to come.

My advice: Adopt another ethic. Repentance is also good. And leave your poor over extended members alone before they leave you alone.

Priorities people! Priorities! Family and friends come first, and as sure as death, hell, taxes, revenge and the fury of a woman scorned, the church of gods is neither.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone been able to actually find the sermon? I'm looking and can't seem to find it on the website. Thiel states it's called, "Clarion Call - The Time Is NOW!" and that it was given 11/03/07 and I can't find it anywhere.

Anonymous said...

After posting, I see Gavin says it's not available on the website. My bad. Any ideas about where Thiel could have heard it?

Douglas Becker said...

Any ideas about where Thiel could have heard it?

Maybe he attends.

Lussenheide said...

Any ideas about where Thiel could have heard it?...

Perhaps "Bob Thiel" is just a pen name for DAVE PACK???


Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Kscribe said...

Well I tried to tell you all about Davies ambition!

My May, 2005 webpage
What is Reverse Speech?

“Reverse Speech, the phenomenon of hidden backward messages in speech. It initially gained worldwide fame in the early 80s as those strange backward messages in rock and roll. Since that time, research has progressed significantly and it is now known to exist in all forms of human speech”. David John Oates.
“Thru reverse speech we are able to hear the unconscious express itself”. Greg Albrecht
From the Restored Church of God sermon, “21st-Century Apostle” part 2 at approximately 1:15:42 into the sermon, we hear the Apostle Dave talk about the “work” and the age that Herbert was when he understood that he held the office of Apostle. It is at this point when we hear Dave say: “He (HWA)was 60 when he understood he held the office, I'm 56”
DaveForward now try Dave Reverse

How does “Three million a week” sound? Dave should be able to live on that! Why not stop over at Daves and give that little bit of extra cash you don't need!

Douglas Becker said...

Yes, reversed speech works.

Now if we could just play David Pack backwards to the point that he goes back to just before he was a minister....

Anonymous said...

I think we can make an educated guess that someone sent Bob a tape made for/from a local service. He states that he tried to type verbatim and and that the message was directed to his (Pack's) followers. It wouldn't be the first time that Bob has received media information from various COG members.

"The following are approximate quotes (I tried to type verbatim and the following is fairly close) from what purports to be a 11/03/07 sermon by David C. Pack to his followers in the Restored Church of God titled Clarion Call -- The Time is NOW!"

Clarion Call, indeed... more like Call of the Wild(man) with dark overtones and stained images of canine cruelty.

Run for your lives, RCG members!

Kscribe said...

Let us never forget Davies past page 1048-1049:

"David Pack's Reign of Terror"
On the night of Roxanne Elliott's death, one of the last people - probably the very last one - Lois Elliott phoned before the tragedy was WCG minister David Pack, pastor of the Buffalo (North), New York congregation.. Exactly what was said, we don't know. At least not yet. That information may well come out should Lois Elliott ever recover sufficiently to stand trial. What is remarkable, however, is how often Pack's name seems to appear in conjunction with tragedies in the WCG. For a number of years now, no WCG minister's name has appeared more often in letters written to the Report complaining of ministerial abuse.
Pack, a burly 6-foot, 5-inch Ambassador College graduate known locally for his authoritarian style, has so incensed some in his flock that a group have circulated an open letter detailing his abuses and have called for his removal. The letter describes Pack's ministerial leadership as a "Reign of Terror." On the cover page, addressed to WCG headquarters leaders, they wrote: "David's power-crazed quest to totally dominate the mind, body, and spirit of church members has not been done in a corner and has been done clearly in view of all to see at headquarters in Pasadena."
On the following 13 pages of their letter the allegations about Pack read like a horror story. The authors contend that Pack constantly intimidates members, uses threats and mind-control methods, is given to extreme emotional outbursts, is highly political, believes in winning at all cost, has disfellowshipped
members for trivial faults, prescribes diets while "playing M.D.," insists on being addressed as Mr. Pack, enjoys wearing skimpy, skin-tight shorts to sporting events, has actually worn a wolf costume to church socials, enjoys putting down women, and told one married woman with children, "It would be better for you to shack up one night with a man than wear makeup."
The letter quotes Pack as having said, "Everyone who has challenged me has either died, been seriously injured or has been eliminated from the work." And, "God backs me even if I am wrong."
On page 7 the authors made this statement to Pack (emphasis ours):
Doesn't it bother you that while you were in charge of the Rochester and Syracuse area there were three suicides? One can only wonder why they chose to kill themselves while you were their main advisor in the area. Perhaps you suggested to one or more of them that they would in no way make it into the Kingdom of God.... A statement such as, "You are no longer in the body of Christ," could have caused one to give up and kill himself.
The above quote was written well before the Elliott family tragedy. Some who knew little Roxanne and her mother Lois Elliott wonder if it might have been a prophecy.

Anonymous said...

"Any idea how Bob Thiel got this?"


Somebody trying to conceal their identity for their own protection is monitoring Mr. Pack, by making or copying recordings. Concealing their identity from Mr. Pack seems really smart, not cowardly. He's used lies and harassment against many former associates. Who knows what he might do next?

Mr. Thiel's site is a good way to get the warning out. So, the source loans him or plays him the recording.

Whether this secret source is religious or not, I bet they risk retaliation because they care about people who would foolishly destroy themselves for Mr. Pack. Hey, this is one kind of love both friends and critics of the CoGs have.

I am glad for CoGWriter, Ambassador Watch, & others. This needs to be said: Sites by friends & critics of the CoGs are alike in one important way: Almost always, both are more open about FACTS than the CoGs. As much as they are different, that is mainly about how they interpret the facts.

So, thanks secret source, thanks Mr. Thiel, thanks Ambassador Watch, and thanks to the other church-related sites. Thanks for all your facts! Thanks for all your hard work to help me!

I will consider everyboy's opinions, but I won't swallow them whole. I'll make my own decisions about what the facts mean.

Anonymous said...

Even by classic WCG standards, David Pack has become a turd in the ACOG punchbowl!

Douglas Becker said...

Even by classic WCG standards, David Pack has become a....

Lest we forget, Herbert Armstrong was the one who was the first to start this with "the gun lap of the work", "time is short" sell your homes / max out loans and give me the money at the beginning of the Seventies. And actually, more before that. Here it is 37 years later and you'd think people would learn new tactics, but no, this is all they know.

Nothing new at all.

The only thing changed is how well it works. Not so much.

Anyone who actually responds?

For more recent experiences, ask Homer.

Lussenheide said...

In regards to Kscribes "backward masking" there is often interesting things to be found in anagrams (arranging all the letters in words to form others, example: Santa= Satan, etc)

Anagram for:

Apostle Dave C. Pack = Accept Vodka's Plea

Garner Ted Armstrong = Grandma's Gent Terror

Anyone with any others??

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Douglas Becker said...

Evangelist = Evil Angels + a t left over.

Douglas Becker said...

Wade Cox = Axed Cow

Gerald Flurry = Flag Dry Ruler

[certainly appropriate considering his drinking]

John Ritenbaugh = Jab hero hunting

[looking for someone to look up to?]

Joe Tkach = Chat joke

Dave C Pack = Caved Pack

Restored Church of God = Scorched roughed fort

Better: Occurred hotdog fresh!

Best: Churchgoers to fodder!

Corky said...

Folks need to get their minds wrapped around the question: Act 1:6 - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Aah, the "kingdom to Israel", which was a province of Rome at the time.

The disciples had already been sent out to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" (luke 9:2-6) so they knew that the gospel was the kingdom being restored to Israel.

They also knew that the kingdom that Jesus was to restore was "at hand", i.e., soon.

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

So, the time was fulfilled over 1900 years ago and the kingdom being restored to Israel was at hand.

It didn't happen though, did it?

It didn't get restored in 1948 either - no king. Can't have a kingdom without one. Plus the fact that it was Jesus who was to be the one to "restore the kingdom to Israel" - soon - 1900 years ago.

It had nothing to do with gentiles, that was Paul's bright idea. Jesus had instructed his disciples not to go to the gentiles or enter into any of their cities. I reckon Paul ignored that commandment.

Gentiles did tend to have more money than the poor Jews at that time though. Good motive for taking the "gospel" to the gentiles I'd say.

However, Paul just did it because, being a Jew, he was really, really concerned about those gentile souls out there, "without God in the world".

So it is with Pack, he is only trying to reach those poor souls out there who don't know "the truth" and are "without God in the world".

Please send him all your money, he will put it to really, really good use as he always has.

Besides, he may go over to merrydeath and he needs to take some funds with him. You know, don't want to chance it while he's broke.

Byker Bob said...

Like most WCG expatriates,I've had to wrestle with this concept of the Kingdom of God being at hand, in view of the failed end time prophecies, and I believe that the churches have probably expanded the concept a bit too much, and have unfortunately utilized it for manipulative and coercive, self-serving purposes.

We all know that a person is born, lives, and dies. It's a random cycle, and we really don't get to exercise a great deal of personal influence over the length of our lives. So, in that sense, the end is always possible, and potentially near, as we cross the street, take in our daily dose of carcinogens, play the game of genetic roulette, or indulge in countless other activities and cycles that are an integral part of daily living. So, really, the words attributed to Jesus in the book we call the Bible, ring true on a personalized level.

We also know that all vestiges of the Kingdom of Israel went from bad to worse in AD 70. The Jews and other tribes assimilated into Judah were allowed to exist in captivity up until then. But, there was an insurrection, and Jerusalem was destroyed, with many killed or remaining in captivity under even worse circumstances than prior to the insurrection. So, in that sense, the end of the world as they knew it, was accurately forecast by Jesus for the vast number of people whom He addressed in His sermons and teachings.

But, now we get into the guesswork. Enter the book of Revelation. Suddenly a theory of British Israelism materializes. It's extrabiblical, of course, and is a theory which cannot be proven.
Enter HWA, and his theory regarding the progression of churches, especially the last few: Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodecea.
Once again, speculative, unprovable, and extrabiblical. Then you get into some really serious doo doo. Jesus himself says that nobody except the Father knows when the time of the end will come. But, once again, you have an extrabiblical theory regarding a millennial time cycle, with 6,000 years for man, and a figurative millennial sabbath for God.

Is there any reason why there is so much confusion, coercion, and empire building activity based on these theories? Why would an apocalyptic sect and its splinters build huge multi-million dollar college campuses? It just doesn't make any sense at all. I really wish some of the people facing the pillaging of their retirement resources would think twice about all of this. It's not only stupid from an atheist or agnostic point of view, it's even theologically unsound!


Douglas Becker said...

Besides, he may go over to merrydeath and he needs to take some funds with him. You know, don't want to chance it while he's broke.

Funny, but nonsense. Pack packed up and left Meredith in Global when he received his inheritance.

Like the author said, there's no going home.

Robert said...

David Pack hasn't studied the Torah lately has he?

According to Rabbi Silberberg at ( here is the summary of inheritance laws as outlined by the Torah:

The following are the basic rules:

If a man dies, his possessions are divided by his sons. His wife can either take her Ketubah or can live off her husband's estate for as long as she wishes.

If there is a firstborn son, he receives a double portion.
The daughters are supported off their father's estate until they get married.

Each daughter receives a dowry from the father's estate.

If there aren't any sons, the estate passes to the daughters.
If a woman dies, her husband inherits all her possessions.

If she has no husband, her sons (or daughters, if there aren't any sons) inherit her possessions.

If one doesn't have any children (or grand-children) the estate goes to the deceased's father.

If the deceased doesn't have a father, the estate goes to the deceased's brothers (or sisters, if there aren't any brothers), or, if they are no longer alive, their descendants.

As you can see David Pack is not even mentioned nor is any church organisation! Giving away your inheritance to the church is contrary to God's Torah laws. Inheritance was always to stay within the family!

David Pack as far as I am concerned is a hireling because he teaches others to forsake God's Torah! May he be dealt with in good time!

Paco said...

Dave Pack was a vain, braying jackass when he and I were students at AC Pasadena. Based on what I have read and heard over the years, he has long since developed into a cruel, bullying lunatic. I fear for the people in his group.

The saddest part of all this for me is that there is little one can do directly to get people to stop allowing their lives to be run and ruined by such thugs. About the best that can be done, in my opinion, is to just keep putting the truth out there on the various xcg forums and hope that somehow and in some way the victims eventually will stop making themselves into sacrificial offerings for these demented human beings. My view is that the Internet has been one of the best, if not the very best, of all the tools ever developed for freeing people from Armstrongism.

On a personal note, this is my first posting on this site although I visit often. I have to limit participation because too much involvement in things related to wcg brings on waves of depression, even after being out of the group for close to 30 years.

Best wishes to Byker Bob and Dennis Diehl, a couple of good guys - with very different personalities - with whom I shared time at AC.

Douglas Becker said...

I have to limit participation because too much involvement in things related to wcg brings on waves of depression, even after being out of the group for close to 30 years.

Welcome and thanks for the posting. Hopefully, over time your depression will disappear with the knowledge that the whacks we take at cultmeisters really does have an impact to help people. Besides, vengeance is so very satisfying, even if the Lord is behind it.

Dave Pack was a vain, braying jackass when he and I were students at AC Pasadena. Based on what I have read and heard over the years, he has long since developed into a cruel, bullying lunatic.

In his arrogance, this is what I think his assumption was when he got his inheritance while he was with Global:

God has given me this inheritance so I can do a work as the end time apostle

What God may have actually had in mind:

I have given you a blessing of an inheritance so that you can leave the ministry forever and enjoy it.

It's so bad to make assumptions, particularly about the Mind of God and particularly when you never knew God in the first place.

Robert said...

>> too much involvement in things related to wcg brings on waves of depression.

I can understand that! It is enough to get any of us down when we hear the things people get up to, the heavy demands laid on people, with the increasing fear of failure if people do not live up to others expectations.

I had a crisis myself back in 1993 and 2004 where I just walked away from it all. It was enough for me to see the increasing hypocrisy in the church that I didn't want anything more to do with it.

The despair and the depression was great too but at the end of the day as my life seemed to get worst that I went back to the only thing I had known since all these years. At one time it pushed me into living as a Jew rejecting Jesus with a view of conversion but that is another story! Though some people have really gone into crazy things since leaving WCG from the occult to white racist groups.

So a lot of us have been there, having dealt with it in our own ways, reaching different outcomes.

Sometimes I am glad that I don't get The Journal to read all the stuff that goes on.

Byker Bob said...

Welcome aboard, Paco. And, thanks for the kind words.

Take my word for it, depression will abate as you participate more. Being on these sites, as you probably know by now, exposes us to a number of alternative views. We get to bounce our thoughts off one another, and to help each other troubleshoot one anothers' ideas, based both on our shared past, and our new paths. I firmly believe that there is an environment under which each of us can thrive. Life is an oddyssey, and the journey is the fun part. I'm thinking you probably have a lot to contribute!


DennisDiehl said...


Thanks for your kind words as well. Drop a note anytime .

I just got in from a three day advanced deep tissue seminar, held in the Mtns around Asheville,NC. It's kinda like three days of laying on of hands :) What an eclectic group and I got invited to teach astro-theology to a group later in the year.

Nice place to get away with other therapists, all of whom have stories.

One therapist talked to me and grew up JW and just realized there was a whole world outside of the Jehovah Witness paradigm. We had a great talk several times and while the church is different, the experience in her telling sounds identicle, along with all the family drama, disfellowshipping and marking crap. She's a sweetie on her way to being her authentic self. She said it took her five years to get this far.

Depression, to me and in my experience with it, was anger I didn't feel I had a right to express or to do so would be too costly. We then go inward and the anger becomes depression of the spirit. Obvioulsy the solution is to be more honest come what may, admit to the anger, disappointment and dumb ass participation in it all. On the other hand, I had to be there, so I can be here. It's all connected in some perverse way!

"Not all who wander are lost."


Anonymous said...

Love the fish graphic.

DennisDiehl said...

"Go get a big chunk out of your home. ..... How about ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, or one hundred thousand dollars? Go do it."

"Wives, you can be independent in this. You have 1/2 the worth of whatever you have in your house.

I'm officially telling you this...Wives, legally you have the 1/2 the funds. What are you going to do about it?...Husbands...'well, my wife is not in the church'...tell her...'you don't have a voice woman' "

This is classic Dave Pack. He has been known in the past to split up a couple because then the one sympathetic to the church could get half the estate and share some with RCG. Of course, in the one case I am aware of, it was the woman who was RCG friendly and Dave was NOT telling her "you don't have a voice woman." I'm sure it was more a case of pull out the old "a wife is not bound in such situations" concept since the man was the unbeliever.

The Bible lets you find what you need to apply to all of life's interesting and guru worshipping needs.

I suggest someone send Dave's comments the Akron Beacon Journal for a community interest story that might someday save the community some notoriety they don't want.

Dave better duck into his circle of protection if just one "I don't give a rats ass who Dave Pack is" mate or extended family member who becomes the victim of this utter fool decides to go have a chat with him.

Anonymous said...

Good point, Dennis.

I hope someone does send the Pack sermon to the local newspaper. Maybe that will be enough to halt the liquidation sale.

DennisDiehl said...

On one hand, these statements seem so ludicrous that perhaps there is a "hoax" element to them. On the other hand, it is not beyond Dave Pack to utter such nonsense.

The fact that Bob Thiel seems only disturbed by the fact that RCG is not the real church and Dave Pack is a false apostle.

Thiel says:

" It sounds to me like he is excessively trusting in money to do the work. While money is needed to do the work, I feel that this is excessively and irresponsible for David Pack to call for people to liquidate their assets at this time."

Bob does not seem to have a sense of the lunacy of this or the cultish aspect of it all or the damage it will inflict on the gullible. He doesn't seem to recognize mental problems, only theological ones with Dave.

The reason is, sadly and of course, he is part of a church that could ask the SAME thing of it's memebers when the TRUE TIME comes. Notice he says it is excessive and irresponsible to ask such things "AT THIS TIME"

Bob disagrees with the TIMING, not the request. He has to be careful not to stick a finger in the eye of his own church leadership and what they can come up in the future when the TIMING IS RIGHT to do such things.

They are all theological loons and are going to hurt more people than they ever help.

Anonymous said...

I am no fan of the Packatolla, but do we know that this sermon was actually given? Theil's site does not seem to have a copy there either. Pack is certainly a false apostle, in the style of those the Apostle Paul said "transform themselves into the apostles of Christ", but I prefer not to judge a matter based on zero evidence.

DennisDiehl said...


I's plausible, but seems so ludicrous I'd like to know more. There must be former RCG out there with contacts who can say yea or nay to this having been spoken by Dave.

paco said...

Dennis Diehl said:

"Obvioulsy the solution is to be more honest come what may, admit to the anger, disappointment and dumb ass participation in it all."

True. It took me a very long time, Dennis, to realize (or allow myself to admit) that in addition to being mad at all the usual suspects (HWA, GTA, Rod of Iron, visiting program goons, festival parking lot attendents, etc.) that I was by far the most furious with myself for having been such a dumbass in my letting those people have any control over me in the first place. Coming to that realization helped a lot in making some significant progress in sorting things out and moving on.

Dennis also said:

"On the other hand, I had to be there, so I can be here. It's all connected in some perverse way!"

For me, if it had not been AC/WCG it would have been something else - same lessons, different circumstances.

My biggest breakthrough in finally getting some resolution to all the wcg issues was spending a lot of time on the old Ecclesia list several years ago (around 1997-2000). Thank you Bill F. and group. I hope I helped some of you as much as you helped me.

thankful for not being a part of the 'pack' said...

One definition for 'insanity' is to behave in the same manner again and again expecting a different result.

I pray brethren will wake up before it is too late.

We will know them by their fruits. What fruits have DP, GF and RM produced? May God have mercy on those who see them as anything more than men. I am praying for all of our brethren.

Douglas Becker said...

Let's see now... Some time this weekend, NBC News had a segment on the Canadian millionaire who built Canada Town in the US for Hurricane Katrina victims, on over 800 acres with three bedroom homes and farm land thrown in form slightly over $800 million dollars. People live there if they follow rules like hold a job, contribute an hour a week to community service, participate on the town council. Victims of the storm have a home now -- a nice home and they stay there for free for the next five years.

Right at this moment ABC Home Makeover Extreme Edition is on. This week, Ty Pennington is building a new house for a couple with two boys, one of whom is severely disabled -- out of the goodness of heart.

And a few miles south of here, people are opening their homes and hearts to help the victims of the flooding over the past week or two. Again, unselfish, working hard to help members of their community, asking for nothing in return and contributing food, clothing, furniture, and for right now, a place to stay, for those who have lost everything.

Let's see now... David Pack is showing forth the Goodness of God with good works as commanded in Scripture to unselfishly help people who are hurting and disadvantaged, just how?

Douglas Becker said...

Oh, I know: Let the dead bury their dead.

Except, except, they're not dead yet.

But if no one helps, they will be.

Then the dead can bury the dead.

Thanks to the Pharisee who refuses to help... ever.

Bamboo_bends said...

anonymous said....

If I keep posting my unpublished essay on this website, it will soon be published!


Sometimes just be able to tell your story is cathartic in itself.

In the WCG we weren't allowed our own story, we had to recite the story of Herbert, Ted, Rod, and Herman. And if we forgot any of that, Waterhouse was around once a year to remind us.

I've got book coming out myself, but still haven't decided whether to approach it as historical fiction, or hysterical non-fiction. Somewhere between is probably the right course.

I'm more interested in getting a deeper point across than naming hundreds of fools who would be king.

Bamboo_bends said...


A customer of mine was into Reverse Speech, and was formally licensed by Oates to teach in the States. I've got a copy of the Reverse Speech Metaphor Dictionary.

The key to doing a reverse is to slow the reverse waveform (Goldwave is a good software program for this) down to 75-80% of normal. RS is encoded backwards at 120% of normal speaking rate. Also much of the speech is in human archetype metaphors, which are pretty common to all English speakers, along with a few personal metaphors.

Its an amazing discovery, that the true intent of a person's speech is encoded even if they tell a lie. Politicians are hysterical to reverse speech analyze.

Its a very real phenomenon, and once you understand it, its only natural we should find reversals in music that contains words being sung.

Anonymous said...

Hi all!

“Well, as I mentioned to my friends at WCG Alumni Forum, where FYI opened a post on this topic, this latest action by David Pack most definitely places him a notch or two above Gerald Flurry on our Kool-Aid betting pool.”

Mark Lax responds: The makers of Kool-Aid would like to remind everyone that the beverage used at Jonestown was Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid, which with or without sugar, has never been used in any mass executions and/or mass suicides.

“BTW, his mental condition might have been more understandable if he were approaching 70 as suggested above. Reality is, he's approaching 60. The man is a baby boomer.”

Mark Lax responds: Pushing 70 was a best guess. He says he was at A/C as an undergrad in 1972, which at minimum makes him 57. Another work of his stated that he had already picked up a BA at another college. I think the letters cited previously on this thread have his age at 30 or so in 1978, which puts him at 59. Given that there are posters on the forum who actually have dealt with Pack in the fleshy bits, I will defer to them. In any case, I stand corrected.

“Yes, reversed speech works.”

Mark Lax responds: Sigh. Does not. Does not. Does not. Sigh.

" It sounds to me like he is excessively trusting in money to do the work. While money is needed to do the work, I feel that this is excessively and irresponsible for David Pack to call for people to liquidate their assets at this time."

Mark Lax responds: Until I hear the entire sermon, I am going to reserve judgment. Dr. Bob is about the opposite of a credible source on any topic, including his own credentials. I find it interesting that both he and Pack are tied to the vitamin industry—an utter jungle of frauds if ever there was one. If this is all Dave is doing during the sermon, then I would have to conclude that, yes, indeed the Packster has gone off the deep end. BUT, it should be noted that Pack often goes into a form of word jazz during his sermons, especially when he is struggling with a transition from one topic to another. He does this in his writing quite a bit, also. As opposed to saying, “On another subject” or “Of tangential interest” or “Now, a word from our sponsor” he will just go off for about three minutes (six pages) on… whatever, really. The time is short, give me your money now thing is more or less a staple of his meanderings. Perhaps poor Dr. Bob is just not used to this type of presentation. Wait! Dr. Bob is an LCG follower, wherein the end of the world is all they do. Oh. Ok. Maybe, just maybe, it’s Dr. Bob that is insane—and perhaps just a little jealous?

Anonymous said...

This sounds as if it could actually be from a Dave Pack sermon. I don't think Bob Thiel would just make that all up.

Dave Pack must be running out of cash and feeling the economic pinch. It is tough running a family church business.... especially with a son and his family needing to live off the back of the tithe payers, a daughter and her family needing to live off the church contributors, a son in law and his brother living off RCG contributors, and ole Dave himself having to do without so much scotch..

A family run church enterprise at its worst. Because anyone foolish enough to give to Pack's "church" to support him and his extended family will NEVER see any of that money again. But Pack and his fimily will sure collect their pay checks!! Thanks to the dumb sheep!!

The bills will come due for the second mortgage they took out on Dave's behalf, and Dave's empty promises will be just that.... empty. Then the gullible will find out if god owns the property or the mortgage originator.

His assurance that they will flee to the place of safety before the bills come due is laughable at best, frightening at the worst. Sounds like someone planning to take the money and run.

Dave is proving yet again that his greed and lack of ethics knows no limits!!! And don't think his gratitude will last all that long once you have to start repaying your loans with no money to do so. He will not help you. If you request assistance there will be an excuse, or a demand to turn your whole estate over to his "Church".

Dave and and other church of god fraudsters are parasites that drain their victims and then cast them aside to find new hosts.

I certainly hope no one actually goes through with the financial suicide that he is pressuring his followers into commiting. Instead, let's hope this awakens more of them into what a complete and utter charlatan he is.

Thomas Munson

Anonymous said...

Pack appears to have gone bananas, and the best interpretation is he is about to implode financially and/or becoming mentally deranged. By pressuring people to sell their assets NOW, as an ultimatum, this means those who don't are on the "you are against me" side of Pack's spectrum. Best guess as to what will happen: a whole one or two larger-than-average offerings which keeps Pack's bills paid for another month or so, on the upside: the downside is some more people see the man is a raving lunatic and leave. But Pack probably is used to people leaving, since that happens anyway; his business model is probably get new people in and churn 'em for cash while he's got 'em.
Definitely someone get this story to the Akron Beacon Journal NOW. They will know how to verify its accuracy first of all, and then do something about it second. This is the #1 thing anyone on the inside who cares can do.

Anonymous said...

Pack is even better than the Nigerians at scamming.

SmilinJackSprat said...

If this quote, or near quote, is legitimate, then David Pack is seriously unhinged, quite possibly dangerous. He is walking on the line between reality and delusion. He worries me. God help the people in his presence day after day.

Anonymous said...

Since Bob Thiel tends to use the antics and teachings of the other COG's to give him a chance to show how correct his thinking always is, I would like to see him be more forthcoming on the orign of this tape or sermon.

It's not that I think he is not being forthright, but he needs to give more info on the origins of this crazy rant by Dave.

Anonymous said...

Agreed! So how about it Bob? We know you read this blog, so please give a bit more to lend more credibility to this unbelievable occurrence.

Kscribe said...

One would be safer playing a pump and dump penny stock then giving bad old Dave a nickel! Either way, there will be no return. Not even eternal life!

Can you really get a smile and a pat on the back from God for giving him (Dave/God) money? If that is the case then God is corrupt and likewise, his children! Go ahead, bribe those keys to the kingdom right out of Dave's/Gods hands! Buy eternal life!

Honestly, I must say that it would be better to be dead than in that or other mind control cults! The alternative is to drink yourself to death. Go out drunk and in a blaze of glory! Just don't crash your car into mine!

Anonymous said...

Did not Peter tell Ananias and Sapphira that the money from the sale of the land was theirs?

To do what they liked with.

Most people forget that.Ananias and Sapphira were not sprung for keeping their money, but for lying and dishonesty.

These religious hicks,once again, choose to overlook the Scripture that says that God will meet their financial needs, Providing they are following him.And these words from Christ himself.Paul, himself seemed to forget these words at times.


Anonymous said...

A bit dated, but relevant background. This from a Thiel website entry dated 11/2/01 ( How much has changed from then to now? What is Pack doing with third tithe funds currently--and is there honest, truthful, accurate disclosure to his members?

---- QUOTE ----

About a year ago (9/6/00), Ted Munson reported the following (which I copied from Bill Sheppard's website), "As the Treasurer of the Church for the past three months now, I can see a clear and consistent pattern of overspending, wastefulness and worst of all, a misuse of all three categories of directed tithe funds. Anybody who is a contributor to the Restored Church of God should be concerned with that statement. What do I mean? Let me explain. Directed funds are funds where you, the contributor, specify exactly how they should be spent as a condition of RCG accepting the funds. Example: Third tithe. Everyone in the Church knows it is to go to the widows and the orphans and other needy people as their legitimate needs arise. This is a long standing doctrine of the Church. However, very little third tithe contributed to RCG is actually spent in the manner which God says it should be. Mr. Pack has even instructed me to deny people who need third tithe, and instead use the third tithe to help meet payroll, rent, attorney salary, and other expenses unrelated to third tithe. I cannot in good conscience comply with his demands any longer. Mr. Pack has repeatedly instructed me to turn down those requesting second tithe assistance while also repeatedly instructing me to deposit all excess second tithe, and tithe of second tithe into our main checking account, (which is the first tithe account) to cover our shortfalls due to overspending. I have refused to do as he demands, explaining to him that my conscience tells me not to do as he demands. Of course his demands are verbal and not in writing. When I told him of my crisis of conscience, he became extremely angry and verbally abusive of me. He even made many untrue and unkind remarks to me about my wife, and even attacked Mr. Armstrong’s integrity. He claimed Mr. Armstrong misused third tithe and festival tithes in such a way that I “wouldn’t even believe it.” That saddened me. I had hoped he would have said: “Tom, you passed the test, I really didn’t expect you to do what I was telling you to do, I was just testing you.” But he didn’t. He told me a condition of my continued employment was to pay the bills with excess second tithe, and tithe of a tithe and third tithe. I won’t steal God’s tithe in my personal life and I won’t steal God’s tithes from the needy. Mr. Pack should have known I was honest when he hired me... RCG’s policy: If you don’t tithe you’re out. Over half of the mailing list was removed for one reason and one reason only, they didn’t give as much as Mr. Pack wanted them to. Forget about “freely you received, freely give.” One of the biggest events of the day for Mr. Pack is when the mail comes in. He opens the mail personally in order to count every last cent that comes in, and to see who has suddenly stopped tithing. If someone hasn’t given money in a while, he usually won’t counsel with them. What he does is to remove them from the mailing list. This is true of prospective members, too. Everything seems to revolve around money for Mr. Pack. If you knew how much he spent per month on rent and for his personal attorney, or how huge his salary is, then you would know why he is so concerned with the tithes, and why he is so willing to misuse the other tithes as well as first tithe. "

---- END QUOTE ----

xbeliever said...

I have to comment on Pack's latest "mugging of the brethren" (a guilt trip and false promises being the weapons). The time has come for all RCG members to exit Pack's cult.

Anonymous said...

Becker ... Mrs. Pack died.

church-helper said...

I have the last 57 minutes of the DP sermon. Where he ask his people,no I take that back, He Tells his people to send him, ALL their money and more.
If you want to hear it. I will send it.
I am at, no I take th