Wednesday, 14 November 2007

Another Journal hits the post


The September-October Journal is in November's mail. One of the intriguing things about Dixon Cartwright's newspaper is its unpredictability, and I don't mean when to expect the next issue to surface. No, I mean its content. Here's a sampler of what's on offer.

Mac Overton waxes eloquently on the subject of secession. (Unrelated bumper sticker no. 1: nothing secedes like secession. Unrelated bumper sticker no. 2: nothings succeeds like a budgerigar.) Mac's argument is that if it weren't for stroppy old beggars like Spanky and Hulme - I'm not sure whether he's prepared to draw Gerry and the Packatollah under the sacred canopy as well - all those precious Herbal truths would've been lost.

I've had the pleasure of exchanging a few emails with Mac, and he's both a decent bloke and a fine journalist, but this time you'll have to forgive a raised eyebrow on my part. Mac writes:

Those who remain in WCG follow a church that has not a dime's worth of difference with the First United Methodist Church in both doctrine and governance.

Stirring stuff, but I wonder if it's completely true, at least not if United Methodists in the US manage their affairs in a similar way to Methodists in the rest of the world. Do they have an unelected Pastor Generalissimo and toothless appointed boards of yes-persons? I doubt it.

Moving along, how's this for an article title: What can we learn from the man who circumcised Jesus? by Ken Westby? So many possible puns (cutting remarks and snippets); so few in good taste!

Ah, moving right along... how about a slapping around for Greg Doudna's book on WCG and AC at Big Sandy? I've reviewed this one myself, but Tom Adams is less enthusiastic. Referring to an earlier Journal review Tom opines:

[T]he previous reviewer recommended Showdown at Big Sandy as a good Feast present for friends. This is true if you also think a copy of Martin Luther’s 95 theses would be an appropriate confirmation gift for a Catholic.
Ouch! Tom has a point, I suppose, if we're talking about a COG-AIC, PCG or RCG cult FOT, but there are a lot of bright cookies out there in UCG and among the independents who might not agree. If I was Dixon I'd serialize the book: he'd be swamped with protesting emails from people who couldn't spell, but I bet his subscriber base would show a growth spurt.

Last and least, revealed in the ad section, Craig White has new book out with the portentous title: In Search of the Great German Nation: Origins and Destiny, which he seems to have self published. Among those paying tribute to the new opus is none other than Mac Overton who calls it "well researched" and "the best and most thorough treatment of the subject I've seen." Call me skeptical, but I'll treat that opinion seriously when I see a qualified ethnologist do something other than laugh hysterically at the suggestion that Germany is Assyria in prophecy. Tom Adams, however, may well feel differently.

Yep, each issue of The Journal is a proverbial curate's egg, but I still wouldn't want to miss an issue. There's a free download of the front and back pages here.

106 comments:

Tom said...

>>>Mac's argument is that if it weren't for stroppy old beggars like Spanky and Hulme -<<<

A supposition that Mac can't prove, and I doubt there is any evidence to support such a argument. Of course, most people here would no doubt argue that WCG didn't have any truths worth preserving.

For two reasons I no longer subscribe to The Journal. One, every edition is replete with religious platitudes from Dave Havir and others. The advertisement section has been taken over by a cabal misguided men peddling every heresy under heaven.

And two, Dixon's editorial policy is to publish the letters and articles of his friends. Some time ago Wayne Cole, who was kicked out WCG in 1979 for conspiring with GTA, Ron Dart and other to unseat HWA, preached what is laughing called a sermon advocating tolerance to division and confusion.

I wrote a letter to Dixon pointing out that Wayne's sermon was heresy, and that Wayne's previous behaviour disqualified him from preaching to others. Dixon replied that he couldn't print my letter, because Wayne was his friend and the letter would upset him. I rest my case!!

Anonymous said...

I would enjoy seeing Darrell Condor write for The Journal

:)

Anonymous said...

I dispute the irascible Tom Munson's memory of the situation with Wayne Cole. For one thing, Wayne's behavior (whatever it was) was not heresy. For another: Yes, it is literally true that it is my policy to publish the letters and articles of my friends. However, it is also true that I publish the letters and articles of people who aren't my friends. I don't recall precisely what upset Tom about my handling or mishandling of his and Wayne Cole's letter or article. I do remember that Tom wanted to badmouth Wayne in The Journal. If I recall correctly, I complained to Tom about his hateful-sounding prose and Tom, then, commendably, rewrote it to make it sound more or less civilized. But then whatever Wayne had written in reply to something Tom wrote no longer applied because of Tom's rewrite. Things got complicated and I dropped the whole mess. And by the way, who cares? I cannot imagine that I told anyone, or even thought to myself, that I will not print Tom's letter because Wayne was my friend and the letter might upset him. There has to be more to the story. Anyone reading The Journal for any length of time can perceive that I do not follow the policy Tom Munson has invented for me. --Dixon Cartwright

Robert said...

You should try getting a Good News subscription. I have tried for two years but for some reason they don't want to add me to their mailing list

Call me cynical but perhaps it has more to do with how many pounds and pence they will get from me... And the answer is, absolutely zero.

In its place I get the Firstfruits of Zion magazine called Messiah. And surprisingly enough I do pay to receive it and its worth every penny. And it is not like me not to plug something, so if you also want to know where to get it, go to www.ffoz.org.

Byker Bob said...

The main issue surrounding receivership was fiscal malfeasance. Unfortunately, the state of California was never allowed to continue the process to the point of bringing those who had acted criminally and in bad faith to justice. Instead, the WCG attorneys obfuscated the issues and process at every possible opportunity, and pretended to be defending the constitutional rights of every church group in the USA.

There were those who believed that their church had done no financial wrong, and the state of California would be forced to vindicate WCG on all accounts. I had understood, both from insiders, and the news reports of the day, that Wayne Cole was one of these naive ones, and he basically wanted to cooperate with the receiver and other officers of the court. That he was summarily banned from WCG for this, by those who realized the full extent of all that was hidden, speaks volumes. That some revisionists now want to link Wayne Cole with GTA, tarnishing his credibility by association, is disturbing and should raise red flags for all reasonably thinking persons.

I'm now convinced that nobody could really "know" any of the ministry of WCG, as we only saw facades. However, Wayne Cole was our pastor at one point in my life, and I never did see anything which would have tended to make me doubt his sincerity.

BB

Lussenheide said...

In the Journal, Craig White proclaims and ponders a question in his book "In Search of the Great German Nation--It's Origins and Destiny"

He need not look no further....The LUSSENHEIDE and his clan of three sons is alive and well and living in Menifee California. I am available for Craig White to interview me about our family history and plans to fulfill our manifest destiny.

Herr Lussenheide

PS- Wayne Cole is good people!

Anoneemoose said...

Tom said:"Dixon replied that he couldn't print my letter, because Wayne was his friend and the letter would upset him. I rest my case!!"


Dixon said:"I cannot imagine that I told anyone, or even thought to myself, that I will not print Tom's letter because Wayne was my friend and the letter might upset him. There has to be more to the story. Anyone reading The Journal for any length of time can perceive that I do not follow the policy Tom Munson has invented for me."



I guess Tom's case isn't as rested as he thought it was.

Nothing like having the one accused being able to answer the accuser so quickly.

Much more interesting than just having onlookers speculate as to the truth of the matter.

Tom said...

Dixon

Below is my letter to The Journal, which Dixon did not publish because, and I quote: "I don't want to hurt my friend Wayne."

*************************************************

Commentary on Wayne Cole’s Sermon as reported in the November/December Issue of The Journal 2005


In spite of the fact that God inspired the apostle Paul to write: “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgement” (1 Cor.1:10), Mr. Cole, according to the November/December issues of The Journal, preached a sermon advocating tolerance of doctrinal divisions and differences in practice amongst the churches of God. Yet The Chosen Vessel, in addition to saying, “that there be no divisions among you,” was also inspired to pray: “that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Roms.15:6). How can we glorify God with one mind if there are doctrinal divisions and practices amongst us? Perhaps Mr. Cole would like to explain?

In addition, it is alleged that Mr. Cole stated: “Church of God members are too quick to judge – and even shun - each other because of differences in practice and doctrine.” Here again Mr. Cole disagrees with the clear teachings of the bible. Note what The Chosen Vessel was inspired to write: “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them” (Roms. 16:17). So, on the one hand, God says, “avoid those who cause doctrinal divisions,” and on the other, Mr. Cole says, we should be tolerant of them. Well, readers of The Journal will have to decide whether Mr. Cole is right or God.

However, note what follows: “For they that are such,” that is, those who condone, teach or advocate doctrinal divisions amongst God’s people, “serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple”(Roms.16:18). So according to the bible, Mr. Cole dos not serve Christ, but his own belly, which means his own ego, vanity and covetousness.

Of course it doesn’t surprise me that Mr. Cole holds and advocates these baneful opinions, which are destructive to the unity and simplicity of Christ. For according to Mr. Armstrong, Mr. Cole conspired with GTA and Ron Dart, amongst others, to divide WCG in 1979. When his treachery was exposed, as was inevitable, for Jesus says, “There is nothing hidden that shall not be made known,” Mr. Armstrong expelled him from the Church, and he went off to join his co-conspirators in CGI. Now he wants discerning Christians to believe that he is now a “uniter,” by advocating tolerance of doctrinal divisions, which the bible clearly condemns.

Tom Mahon

Questeruk said...

Information for Richard

My understanding on how to request the Good News magazine.

As you live in the British Isles go on to the UCG web site - www.ucg.org.uk. - Select ‘publications’, and then option to request literature. Select the Good News, fill in your details, and you should then get the magazine.

No doubt you will post again if there is any problem.

Hope that is useful

Questeruk said...

Sorry Robert - I spelt your name Richard!!

Tom said...

Dixon

>>Yes, it is literally true that it is my policy to publish the letters and articles of my friends.<<

Why should anyone subscribe to The Journal when you are happy to shamelessly admit that your editorial policy is biased towards your friends? I thought The Journal was an objective, impartial, religious publication, and not just a blank sheet of paper on which your friends could scribble their heretical opinions.

>>>However, it is also true that I publish the letters and articles of people who aren't my friends.<<<

Provided, of course, the letters and articles are not critical of your friends.

>>>I do remember that Tom wanted to badmouth Wayne in The Journal.<<<

Didn't want to badmouth Wayne, you may be surprised to learn! I wanted to expose his heretical teachings, and remind people of his treachery against HWA, and his lack of credibility as a minister.

You no doubt will remember that 16 years after being expelled by HWA, he showed up in Cincinnati, claiming he and his wife were celebrating the Passover at home by themselves, while waiting for WCG to disintegrate. And the discredited cabal of charlatan ministers, led by Victor Kubic, who admitted to me that never spoke a word against Tkach's doctrinal changes, gave him a standing ovation, and made him a local elder. But I can guarantee you that the angels in heaven were applauding!

>>And by the way, who cares?<<

This is a cop out! I cared. Plus, my subscription to The Journal cost me £16 a year, and my comments, however controversial, should not be arbitrarily censored by you, because they might "hurt" you friends.

Questeruk said...

Tom,

I expect it’s not what you write, but the way that you write it.

I would not claim to be a friend of Dixon Cartwright, simply because I have never met him. However he has published letters from both myself and my family, and in each case he wrote us very polite emails saying he was planning to publish our letters!

Your letter does seem very caustic, and seems to advocate that there should be no tolerance between the various Churches of God, and that the different Church of God groups should ‘shun’ each other. There is also a personal attack on Wayne Cole himself, saying that he doesn’t serve Christ, is vain and covetous, and is a traitor.

In general a personal attack on a person’s motives, which in reality you cannot fully know (only God fully knows) is not going to give itself a good chance of being published – friend of the editor or not.

Anoneemoose said...

Tom just to set the record straight you signed your name in that letter Tom Mahon.

Dixon addressed you as
Tom Munson
“Anyone reading The Journal for any length of time can perceive that I do not follow the policy Tom Munson has invented for me. --Dixon Cartwright.

Two similar but different names for 2 men who have been associated with the Armstrongs.

Are you the Tom Mahon who has the Vessels of Mercy web site?

Or the Tom Munson who resigned from RCG

Corky said...

Hmmmm. The plot thickens.

Anonymous said...

Who ever Tom is, he went by Tom Mahon a few years back on other forums.


Paul

Bamboo_bends said...

I always thought The Journal's intent to be an honorable one.

Its efforts though seem bound to go thankless.

How do you build a reliable paying audience out of so many one true churches?

Its like cuddling porcupines. They may eat your free food, but they can't help sticking you with their quills.

Anonymous said...

Robert said "You should try getting a Good News subscription. I have tried for two years but for some reason they don't want to add me to their mailing list"

Last subscriber list showed the Good News going into India, even a few being sent to Iraq and I think Iran. You expect us to believe they won't send one to some guy in the UK?

Since you obviously have computer access you can even download them at http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/index.htm

Lussenheide said...

Tom has a website!

http://thevesselsofmercy.com

Here is the registration info from "whois.com"

registrant-firstname: Clyde
registrant-lastname: Mahon
registrant-street1: Heronville Road
registrant-street2: 55
registrant-pcode: B70 0JG
registrant-city: West Bromwich
registrant-ccode: GB
registrant-phone: +44.1215201617
registrant-email: mahontom@aol.com

Wouldnt everyone here agree that the name "vessels of mercy" for his website seems real odd coming from good old Tom???

Lussenheide

Anonymous said...

Lussenheid,

The Wayne Cole sermon editorial is under "commentary" on the website you found.

Wayne Cole appears to be the victim of circumstance when HWA appointed him to be in charge. Honest Armstrong hid out in Tucson, right after his trip in England was cut short, sensing something was up in the rumor mill.

Once Rader knew out exactly what was up once the WCG/AC process was served, he had time to compose a legal strategy to fight the receivership after the first 48 hours. He then got a hold of HWA and convinced him to fight and delay the process every step of way. Initially Armstrong didn't know what was legally possible or what to do, so he just rolled over and played dead, doing the we have "absolutely nothing to hide" act. He composed an innocent sounding press release about AC being such a fine institution of long standing, claiming he had no idea of any of the audited financial fraud going on in nearly every aspect of the WCG in some way, including his own.

It didn't take a lot of convincing for Rader to persuade HWA to fire Cole. If Armstrongwas going to be hung, both Rader and Armstrong would be hung together! Besides, possibly blackmailing Armstrong with enough information to "tell what he knows" to personally destroy him on the basis of his past actions, HWA didn't want the his financial fraud, embezzlement, and criminal behavior of the highest echelons of the WCG brought to light. What a pity fraudster Armstrong never had to answer the twenty four count criminal indictment California prepared against him, when the legislature came through for him.

Minimalist said...

The logic in Tom's letter to the Journal is good and in step with traditional COG hermeneutics. Therefore, I see the Journal's rejection of it as a bit gutless and somewhat political.

Mel said...

Tom, I take it that you did not like Tkach's changes?

Tom said...

>>>Are you the Tom Mahon who has the Vessels of Mercy web site?<<<

Yes.

Tom said...

>>>Its like cuddling porcupines. They may eat your free food, but they can't help sticking you with their quills.<<<

The name has changed, but the style is Gavin's.

However, the analogy breaks down, because The Journal is not free.

Gavin said...

Tom opines: "The name has changed, but the style is Gavin's."

Be thou assured, doubting Thomas, that Bamboo Bends and I are not the same person. He has in fact been around in WCG circles a lot longer than me, and has been a lot closer to many of the events and personalities than I have.

E.G. said...

I've known Dixon Cartwright and Mac Overton and others of their Big Sandy journalistic cadre over the years. Considering how intelligent they are on other topics, I have no clue how they can comfortably dismiss the debauchery by the higher ups and not connect the dots to the non-theological underpinnings of a system that claims to represent the truth. Never did I encounter people more knowledgeable, and cynical, about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans of HWA, GTA and the leadership than that gang. I guess they have their reasons, probably linked somehow to a lack of enthusiasm for returning to anything mainstream. But that's just a guess. All in all, though, they're decent blokes.

It would appear Tom Mahon jumps on this board because, otherwise, no one would be listening, and for good reason.

Anoneemoose said...

To Dixon Cartwright,

Getting the right name for the right story would seem to be an important aspect of journalism.

Tom said...

Mel

>>>Tom, I take it that you did not like Tkach's changes?<<<

"Did not like" is a classic understatement. I was and am positive outraged by his betrayal of God's people, to placate his two sons who are obvious instruments of the devil.

I still have some of the cuttings from the WWN, where he said: "The ten commandments were part of the old covenant, and since the old covenant has been done way, the ten commandments have been abolished-period."

You may not remember, but less than 3 months after he said: "God is not finished with me yet," he died. And I can assure you that he was not taken by the angels into Abraham's bosom, but buried like the rich man, with all the attendant consequences.

The man was profoundly evil!

Tom said...

Gavin

>>>Be thou assured, doubting Thomas, that Bamboo Bends and I are not the same person.<<<

I am assured, but it would appear that he has copied or has been influence by your journalistic style of writing.

Perhaps you should flattered!

Tom said...

Minimalist

>>>The logic in Tom's letter to the Journal is good and in step with traditional COG hermeneutics. Therefore, I see the Journal's rejection of it as a bit gutless and somewhat political.<<<<

I couldn't have put it any better myself.

Thanks.

Tom said...

>>>Wouldn't everyone here agree that the name "vessels of mercy" for his website seems real odd coming from good old Tom???<<<

The phrase, "The vessels of mercy" is from Paul's epistle to the Romans, verse 23. It is a poetic way of describing God's elect.

Anonymous said...

Tom said: "The phrase, "The vessels of mercy" is from Paul's epistle to the Romans, verse 23. It is a poetic way of describing God's elect."

Vessels of Mercy is the exact opposite of how I would describe those who in modern times consider themselves "God's Elect".

"Purveyors of corruption, judgement, and condemnation" would be more accurate.

Robert said...

>>>Last subscriber list showed the Good News going into India, even a few being sent to Iraq and I think Iran. You expect us to believe they won't send one to some guy in the UK?

I have requested the good news magazine twice on the USA website and ordered some booklets twice. None of these have ever arrived nor have I been placed on any mailing list to receive a copy again.

I have been on the mailing list previously but asked to be removed (at the time I was studying Judaism and at one point thought about converting).

It is not really for my benefit as I can read it online but it is for people who may contact me for more information about Sabbath groups so that I can pass on a copy of the magazine or send them articles from it.

The powers that be know who I am in the UK and the UCGBI have never supported my organisation (promoting the Sabbath). They don't even reply back when I request a list of Sabbath groups and contacts even when enclosing a self addressed envelope.

Their attitude is much like Tom's, they are the only ones doing a work of God and who are you. If I am not part of their church they don't go out their way to help.

I don't think that this is a typical situation in all areas or countries but probally reflects the British reserve attitude to foreigners.

It doesn't help matters that the man in charge of the UK comes from South Africa (and has a strong perception of what he feels is right and wrong). He came in to rescue the church from the John Jewell affair who ended up sacking everybody under his command.

Even now there are people in positions of authority who supported John Jewell. It is too much for me to see such hypocrisy, going to Sabbath services pretending to like the situation.

I have never gone to a church where you get told off because you are sitting in the wrong seat. And it has happened to two people (when I asked them why they left the congregation). They are now independent Sabbath keepers. I have been asked to move seats as I was seating in someone else's usual seat and I thought to myself does it really make that much difference where people sit?

My last time I was at the UCG, it was as a visitor and decided to wear a kippah and the tzitzit (tassels). One of the preachers started laughing asking me why I had a kippah on my head.

I said it was because I am a Messianic Jew. It was one of those moments...I felt very uneasy the whole day, couldn't wait to leave... and I haven't been back since.

Byker Bob said...

The Tkaches, while products of a very corrupt and toxic system of legalism, at least tried to do the right thing. The people who want to cling to the old covenant simply don't understand the Epistle to the Galatians. What part of "Judaizers" do such folks not comprehend? Just the abolishment of the practice of circumcision should be a tremendous clue to these people. That was in no way something added by Jewish extremists of Jesus' day, and could not be considered part of the "washings" often referred to by Armstrongites, Adventists, and other modern day Judaizers.

BB

Anonymous said...

"My last time I was at the UCG, it was as a visitor and decided to wear a kippah and the tzitzit (tassels). One of the preachers started laughing asking me why I had a kippah on my head."

Don't fault the poor fool. He was unaware that wearing kippah and tassels pleases God. He didn't know that he had a True Follower of G*d in his midst. Don't hold it against him. He was probably wrapped up in all that Pauline Theology stuff.

Paul

Anonymous said...

Robert said: "Their attitude is much like Tom's, they are the only ones doing a work of God and who are you. If I am not part of their church they don't go out their way to help."

"I don't think that this is a typical situation in all areas or countries but probally reflects the British reserve attitude to foreigners."

Robert, unfortunately it is an attitude amongst the COG's that transcends international borders.

If you were lying beaten on the street they would cross the street to avoid you.

Yet another scripture that is ignored in practice "If I have not charity, I am as nothing"

Anonymous said...

"Yet another scripture that is ignored in practice "If I have not charity, I am as nothing""

And it all comes from the theology. HWA taught that love, real Godly love, was obeying the Law, mainly the Ten Commandments, not so much in outward displays of compassion and good deeds. This allowed people a loophole out of being charitable and loving toward mankind because as long as they were obeying The Law (HWA's version, that is) then they were "loving" and so fulfilled that requirement.


Paul

mytwocents said...

Lussenheide said Tom has a website!

http://thevesselsofmercy.com


Interesting title considering "mercy" is not a word one would associate with Tom based on his scathing, poorly-constructed and spelled, unmitigated attacks on anything and everything and anyone and everyone here.

One wonders, since he believes in his elitist way, that he has an inside track on God's word and the rest of us are condemned to eternal judgment, why he spends so much time here (when does he work?) arguing what he himself says are futile arguments with the rest of us dregs of humanity (I personally tend to move quickly away and on from hopeless situations and cases and not waste our time with them).

Also, have you looked at the site? There's not much to it (maybe he's in the long-term process of building it, so that's understandable), but the fish in the header gives me pause because it seems, well, odd. Of course,

Tom has already told me how stupid (in the good company of just about everyone else here) am, so I'm sure this is just more proof to him that he's, as usual, always right.

Stan said...

Tom,

"At the start of the state's action, the man in charge of the WCG's church administration department was evangelist C. Wayne Cole. But when Cole decided to cooperate with the state attorney general, Rader - who was the primary target of the lawsuit - saw to it that Wayne Cole, evangelist David Antion, and a number of other prominent church moderates were fired! HWA replaced Cole with evangelist Roderick C. Meredith, an arch-conservative and HWA loyalist who, during the 1960s, had held the same top administrative position.

Although Meredith was put over the field ministry, during 1979 it was really Stanley Rader who ran the WCG. Rader's control was almost total. If decisions were not made by him, they would routinely be made by Virginia Kineston, his domineering executive secretary. More significantly, because HWA's wife, Ramona, and HWA's two personal aides, Kevin and Aaron Dean, were all then personally loyal to Rader, Rader really controlled almost all access to HWA. Meredith, aggrieved over the extent of Rader's power, confided to a number of ministers that he wanted to see Rader removed. It wasn't long before Rader learned of Meredith's desire from a number of sources including Tkach. In mid-1979 Rader saw to it that HWA removed Meredith as head of church administration. Rader than chose "loyal" Tkach to take over Meredith's responsibilities. On Sept. 27, 1979, Rader, Tkach, and Ellis LaRavia (then also a Rader loyalist) were all raised to evangelist rank.

What have you got to say about that? And what was so unscriptural about opening up the accounting books, cooperating with the receivership? What did HWA know about that he wanted to hide?

Anonymous said...

Stan said: "What have you got to say about that? And what was so unscriptural about opening up the accounting books, cooperating with the receivership? What did HWA know about that he wanted to hide?"

Exactly. Of course I suspect even Tom knows what HWA wanted to hide, the difference is that Tom and those like him, don't care what herbie did with our tithes and offerings even if against the law, after all they think that herbie was God's apostle and that is all there is too it.

I can think of one or two sins that might grab their collective attention though. If there ever was verifiable photograph(s) of herbie eating a ham sandwich or holding hands with another man, that would be too much even for them.

Anonymous said...

Holding hands with another man -- Is this something new?

Anonymous said...

I want to make it clear that I am *not* accusing herbie of eating a ham sandwich or holding hands with another man. My point is that those two items would be too much even for the most loyal of herbie's worshippers.

Corky said...

We do know that HWA did partake of unclean meat with his Japanese "family" over in Japan back in the 70s. Of course, he only did it to avoid offending them. He probably hated every bite of it, especially the seconds.

It was okay for us to offend friends and family members by doing the opposite though.

Bamboo_bends said...

Gavin said...

Tom opines: "The name has changed, but the style is Gavin's."


Why thank you! I quite like Gavin's humor!

English people used to mistake me for being Canadian too!

And who doesn't like Canadians eh?

Arabs don't attack them. Their nickles stick to magnets (real nickel!).

And those French Canadians..what a riot they are with their circus acts! Mais vous etes fou? Oh oui!


Be thou assured, doubting Thomas, that Bamboo Bends and I are not the same person. He has in fact been around in WCG circles a lot longer than me, and has been a lot closer to many of the events and personalities than I have.


Painfully so.

Like that Chinese proverb, I lived through interesting times.

You might say I was disabused of the notion there was anything redeeming to be found in Armstrongism.

Something about watching leaders of all sides abandon everything they believe in the name of preserving what they believe.

Bamboo_bends said...

Corky said...

We do know that HWA did partake of unclean meat with his Japanese "family" over in Japan back in the 70s. Of course, he only did it to avoid offending them. He probably hated every bite of it, especially the seconds.

It was okay for us to offend friends and family members by doing the opposite though.

Fri Nov 16, 07:18:00 AM NZDT



The old fart even had coffee on Day of Atonement while the membership suffered with the caffeine headaches.

But what do expect of someone who buys Gulf Stream jets with 3rd Tithe money? I mean if you can justify stealing money from widows...there's not much you won't do.

".....the members are just dumb sheep, they'll do whatever I tell them...." HWA

Bamboo_bends said...

Gavin said...
He has in fact been around in WCG circles a lot longer than me, and has been a lot closer to many of the events and personalities than I have.



I know everybody! One of my buddy's widowed mother is married to Brian Knowles! Want an autograph?

Bamboo_bends said...

Anonymous said...

Holding hands with another man -- Is this something new?



I can positively say with all authority he not only held it, but shook it several times too!

Tom said...

>>>Interesting title considering "mercy" is not a word one would associate with Tom based on his scathing, poorly-constructed and spelled, unmitigated attacks on anything and everything and anyone and everyone here.<<<

I have noticed a few poorly constructed sentences, and a few typographical errors. But they are due to my ability to think faster than I can type, and perhaps some degree of word blindness. But you might call it ignorance of syntax and grammar!

However, you sound like a wounded creature, terrified to criticise what I write. If you believe that I am wrong, please don't be afraid to say so. But be prepared to defend your opinions.

God says that his children should not respect persons in judgement. Therefore, I threat all people the same way. If people are wrong, then, I don't care who they are or what office they hold, I will say they are wrong.

Furthermore, I suspect you don't have the faintest idea what is mercy or how it works. So you think it should be offered to any and everyone. Well, that is not what God says.

Anyone who betray God's people or make merchandise of them will die without mercy.

Bamboo_bends said...

Tom said...

Therefore, I threat all people the same way.....



I couldn't have phrased it better myself if I tried.

Anonymous said...

Tom saith: "However, you sound like a wounded creature, terrified to criticise what I write. If you believe that I am wrong, please don't be afraid to say so. But be prepared to defend your opinions."

--> But don't expect Tom to return in kind except with more vitriol

Tom saith: "God says that his children should not respect persons in judgement. Therefore, I threat all people the same way. If people are wrong, then, I don't care who they are or what office they hold, I will say they are wrong."

--> Well, here you have it, Tom is the final authority on right and wrong

Tom saith: "Furthermore, I suspect you don't have the faintest idea what is mercy or how it works. So you think it should be offered to any and everyone. Well, that is not what God says."

--> I seem to remember a little thing in the bible about how we are all God's children and how we treat the least of them is how God will perceive we treat him...Of course Tom will say that I am wrong and we all know he is the final authority on these things.

Tom saith: "Anyone who betray God's people or make merchandise of them will die without mercy."

--> We are all doomed with the exception of herbie, Tom, and his family (Well, maybe his wife and children are doomed too depending on how well they are submitting to *his* authority)

Here are two definitions of Mercy according to Dictionary.com:

mer·cy [mur-see]
1. compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power; compassion, pity, or benevolence: Have mercy on the poor sinner.

6. at the mercy of, entirely in the power of; subject to: They were at the mercy of their captors. Also, at one's mercy.

Methinks Tom looks at #6.

Thomas Munson said...

I am "the irascible Tom Munson"! The one who resigned from RCG. The doubting Thomas. It was probably just an innocent mistake that Dixon put my name in that letter instead of Tom Mahons name. I hardly know anything about Wayne Cole since he was before my time.

I entered WCG at the tender and impressionable age of 16 in the early 1980's. For the record, I do not hold any beliefs of Armstrongism in my older and wiser years. I would also never attempt to try to invent policy for Dixon and his Journal. I do find it to be interesting reading from time to time though.

Thomas Munson

Thomas Munson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
camfinch said...

So Tom lives in West Bromwich! Ah...if he is native to that area, I can now read his postings with a more particular accent in mind.

Tom, I hope you aren't a bloody Albion supporter...

Camfinch, supporter of the Wolves

:-)

Robert said...

Getting off topic a bit, in the latest Journal, elder, Mr James (of the CGI) works for the CIA.

Journal: "He claims that he is not a spy, that the CIA is a
good place to work, even for
Christians who observe the Sabbath
and feast days, and that he believes the agency carries out important efforts in an era that has proven dangerous for many citizens".

He obviously hasn't studied into the politics and history of the CIA and its dark past when employing former Nazis to help combat the communist threat at the time.

The CIA are notorious for spying on religious groups even did so on the Quakers.

The problem of course will come when he is asked to do something which may contradict his moral principles.

Anonymous said...

Tom Munson:

If you survived David C. you are a god! Congratulations on seeing what we have known for decades!

Tom said...

Camfinch

>>>So Tom lives in West Bromwich! Ah...if he is native to that area, I can now read his postings with a more particular accent in mind.<<<

Are you implying that people from West Bromwich can't speak English, because the majority of them speak with a Black Country accent?

>>>Tom, I hope you aren't a bloody Albion supporter...<<<

It is surprising that Albion has any supporters at all.

>>>Camfinch, supporter of the Wolves<<<

Should I feel sorry for you now, or should I wait until Wolves suffer some more embarrassments?

Tom said...

>>>Getting off topic a bit, in the latest Journal, elder, Mr James (of the CGI) works for the CIA.<<<

It doesn't matter whether he works for the CIA or not. CGI is a heresy, so there aren't any Christians attending with them.

Tom said...

Charlie

>>>mer·cy [mur-see]
1. compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power; compassion, pity, or benevolence: Have mercy on the poor sinner.<<<

There are grains of truth in this definition, but it is the application of mercy that is more difficult to define; and to whom it should be applied requires a correct understanding of what Jesus meant by, "I will have mercy and not sacrifice."

Anonymous said...

Tom said: "...and to whom it should be applied requires a correct understanding of what Jesus meant by, "I will have mercy and not sacrifice.""


This is possibly the most ironic statement ever made in human history.


Paul

Anonymous said...

Robert said: "He obviously hasn't studied into the politics and history of the CIA and its dark past when employing former Nazis to help combat the communist threat at the time."

Robert: Intelligence gathering is neither ethical nor moral it is a dark and dirty business by definition. Until God himself starts running things, it will be an extremely necessary evil. Do you really think you can find out what your enemies are up to by sending an envoy to the Kremlin, Tehran, or the Hindu Kush Mtns and asking politely??

I don't know how it is in the UK but in America, unfortunately the who, what, when, where, and how we gather information is less a secret and more a political weapon.

Tom said...

Stan

>>>"At the start of the state's action, the man in charge of the WCG's church administration department was evangelist C. Wayne Cole. But when Cole decided to cooperate with the state attorney general,...<<<

The state attorney general didn't wake up one morning and said, "Which church should I investigate today." Some people, and according to HWA, including Wayne Cole were complicit in informing the attorney general that there were financial irregularities in the church. This might have been done because of a dislike of Stan Rader, and the perceived influence he had over HWA, but it doesn't justify anyone making false allegations against the church, in order to stab Stan Rader in the back.

History has shown that all of the men that were close to WHA, were unconverted. Meredith has started his own church, where he employs hireling ministers. Wayne Cole went off and joined CGI, with the discredited GTA and Ron Dart. Rader left the church, and died suddenly of cancer. What has happened to David Antion I don't know and don't really care. For all of these so-called pillars of the church, have turned out to be ministers of Satan.

Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact.

Byker Bob said...

There is none so blind as one who will not see.

BB

Anoneemoose said...

Tom said:
Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact.

Who exposed the accusations as false? You??

One would have to be privy to all financial matters of the church to make that statement.

Strange your name never came up as a church accountant or manager of church finances in all these years.
Or did I miss that announcement?

Anonymous said...

Tom saith: "Rader left the church, and died suddenly of cancer."

Tom, Stan Rader died in July of 2002...more than 20 years after he 'left' the church. I would hardly call that "Suddenly."

Tom saith: "Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact."

Tom, I find it very difficult to comprehend that anyone that can see lightning and hear thunder can believe what you wrote there...unless of course, you think that herbie and Rader weren't bound to observe laws governing the finances of a non-profit organization in the U.S of A.

Questeruk said...

If you are accused of financial impropriety and are innocent of all charges, what is the problem with opening your books to the authorities? Public companies have to do this all the time, and if all is above board, then being ‘open and transparent’ will be conclusive proof.

It looks like this was the approach that Wayne Cole had - and indeed maybe he did think there was nothing to hide.


WCG got a lot of support from many other church groups. Why? Well, other groups could be next on the list, and time has shown that some of them had things to hide.


What actually happened did not prove or disprove anything – it was a technical legal victory by WCG, because they then didn’t need to reveal their accounts.

Bamboo_bends said...

Robert said...

Getting off topic a bit, in the latest Journal, elder, Mr James (of the CGI) works for the CIA.

Journal: "He claims that he is not a spy, that the CIA is a good place to work, even for Christians who observe the Sabbath and feast days, and that he believes the agency carries out important efforts in an era that has proven dangerous for many citizens".

He obviously hasn't studied into the politics and history of the CIA and its dark past when employing former Nazis to help combat the communist threat at the time.


...
Yup, part of project Paperclip, we got Nazi spies and Rocket Scientists, just like the Russians did.
...

The CIA are notorious for spying on religious groups even did so on the Quakers.

...
As does the FBI, MI5 and MI6, and Australian intelligence services. One former Aussie Military Intelligence guy ran into a former cohort at an Aussie FOT. He said his former acquaintance looked very worried like his cover had just been blown.
...

The problem of course will come when he is asked to do something which may contradict his moral principles.


...
There are analysts and there are jackals, at least according to the movie Rendition.

The CIA, they say, has always preferred people with strong national loyalties but a with a certain ambiguity of personal morality. Personally I think an xCG preacher should fit right in.

The problem comes in leaving "the company". Once CIA, always CIA.

The CIA also recruits heavily from the Mormon church. Their experience in missionary work gives them an understanding of the larger world.

For God and Country!

Bamboo_bends said...

Tom Said...

Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact.



Complete utter rubbish.

Jack Kessler, who worked with Rader, and gave the eulogy at Rader's funeral, told me personally that "the investigation was fundamentally flawed, because it was based on the premise there was a secret arrangement by which HWA was siphoning off funds through Stanley Rader and that there was some non-legal financial arrangement between them. After all everyone knows Stan is a crook right? Every xCG minister will tell you that!

Stanley Rader's contract was actually quite widely known, and he was widely despised by evangelist for making more than they did, but nobody twisted Herbert Armstrong's arm to make him sign that contract.
His contract quite plainly laid out the terms with which he'd work for HWA.

Kessler further said "they never cease to go after the wrong things. What they should have gone after was WHAT HWA DID WITH THE MONEY."

After HWA lobbied for and got passed a law banning California Attorney General from investigating religions, he became very cocky.
HWA signed over church owned housing properties to his daughter for less than market prices. That and other illegal transactions was why Stan no longer worked for HWA, Stan refused to sign off on the deals as it violated his fiduciary responsibilities under the law. So HWA fired him. This kicked in Stanley's very wisely included golden parachute package, which every xCG minister will say "he ripped us off for years!". No he didn't, he had a valid contract which HWA agreed to.

The "cover story" was HWA disfellowshiped him because he and Robert Kuhn were suing George Lucas and Stephen Speilberg for stealing their "Indian Jones" screenplay (which was settled out of court) and that Rader had contacts with a disfellowshipped member.

The bit about having contacts with a disfellowshipped member, is blatantly fallacious, because as legal counsel to HWA it was quite often his very job to HAVE contacts with former members because they were often suing the WCG!

The really remarkable thing in the history of the WCG is that nobody on the board, except Rader, Kessler, Portune and Jack Bickett ever did anything to stop HWA, and he continued that sort of financial abuse of church funds right up until he died. The gutless men who aided and abetted HWA now run these splinter churches. All those who stood up were tossed out.

The WCG scam was (is still?) to have a very tightly controlled accounting system that was impossible for the membership to embezzle from. They even had year audits by Arthur Anderson (yup the same people that audited Enron!).

The system was very tight. But it was subverted at a level much higher up on the food chain by corporate officers who had a certain sense of "ambiguous morality" at least when it came to HWA.

Anonymous said...

Bamboo_Bends said: "The CIA also recruits heavily from the Mormon church. Their experience in missionary work gives them an understanding of the larger world."

Absolutely true. Same with the Jesuits. International organizations are very crucial toward understanding the local areas, politics, motives, and establishing double agents.

You can't turn an agent without first earning their trust or infiltrate an evil organization without making them believe you are one of them.

mytwocents said...

Tom, you're pathetic. Nothing but rancor and anger and hate come out of your mouth.

You attack everyone and your foolishness and lack of wisdom spills out in each attack. Perhaps you've missed Matthew 15:18.

I suspect you would have the same attitude of hate, anger, and rancor toward God and Jesus Christ because it appears that you - like this angel that used to be called Lucifer - believe that you're above everyone and everything in the universe including our Creator.

It truly is pathetic that you are so angry and so filled with hate for the rest of humanity (and perhaps yourself) that this is who you've allowed yourself to become.

Lussenheide said...

Bamboo and all:

Rader's transaction where he "borrowed" one million bucks from the Church, bought a Beverly Hills house with it in the midst of a Southern California Real Estate Boom, made several million dollars for himself after selling the place a couple of years later and then "repaying" the church back the original one million, and then declaring "I did nothing wrong" is EXTREMELY edgy.

In fact, I would label this as "personal inurement". Im sure I could accomplish "millions" if I had interest free access to millions to work with and "then pay back" after having using it.

Rader had personal corporations that he set up to act as business surrogates to supply the church, including leasing companies, travel companies, and a couple of secretive Nevada trusts. None of these were ever audited to my knowledge, and they were never supervised correctly to see if they were overcharging the Church in any fashion.

In reviewing WCGs asset reports over the years, I noticed that certain rumored "Gold Assets" alleged to be many gold bars that Armstrong had, suddenly appeared on the asset sheets after Tkach took over.

I understand that "R.W." embezelled over a qaurter million during this era, thus showing the system was breached on occasion.

Nonetheless, even if things were technically "legally" and above board at all times, the morality of the extravagance of spending with money pressured from (for the most part) lower middle class to poor people is/was immoral.

Lussenheide

Neotherm said...

Tom is just another classical Bricket Wooder. Ever lovers of Rod Meredith and all things pharisaical.

Dixon's paper serves the purpose of making us realize all the diversity and disunity within the ranks of Armstrongism.

It clearly de-escalates Armstrongism from the "one and only true church" to just another denomination in disarray.

It is good for this "lese majesty" to happen.

Tom Adams misses the point of G. Doudna's book. It is a tour through the mean streets of Armstrongism. The theological fine points are peripheral.

Adams makes a reference to the two trees and blithely skips over the fact that HWA equated the Tree of Life to the Holy Spirit -- a solid statement of heresy.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

"Tree of Life to the Holy Spirit -- a solid statement of heresy."

I think the Elohim (the "let us" gang of the text) were concerned that once humans had for the gods only knowledge of "good and evil", they'd eat the other fruit reserved only for the gods and live forever. What a predicament that would be!

I use to prelisten to WCG "to be played in all the churches" tapes to see if they were worth the effort people made to drive so far to church. If HWA said the words, "God planted two trees in the garden..." I gave the sermon.

Byker Bob said...

mytwocents: That was really profound! You gave many an insight as to the roots of the bitterness found in many an ex-WCG member's heart! We learned the rancor, disrespect, hatred from HWA, because it was all preached in a way that was against anyone who was not a member of our own special little group. Upon leaving, many of us had to learn not to turn this learned hatred against WCG! What a setback! It's taken some many years to kick that negative stuff loose, and unfortunately, for some inside and outside, it's become a permanent part of the psyche.

BB

minimalist said...

Bamboo_Bends wrote:

"Stan refused to sign off on the deals as it violated his fiduciary responsibilities under the law. So HWA fired him."

Interesting info. But I've always wondered why Kessler stayed on board for years. Why didn't he leave in disgust ?

Corky said...

Interesting info. But I've always wondered why Kessler stayed on board for years. Why didn't he leave in disgust ?

MONEY?

Douglas Becker said...

It's not The Journal, but someone here [a certain game player] should get the point from another newspaper:

God continued: "Can't
you people see? What are you, morons?

Jared Olar said...

What can we learn from the man who circumcised Jesus? by Ken Westby

That's easy: nothing! Nobody knows who circumcised Jesus. The fact of His circumcision is mentioned by St. Luke, but the unimportant detail of who circumcised Him was not committed to posterity, which makes it impossible to learn anything "from" him, and next to impossible to learn anything "about" him.

Bamboo_bends said...

Lussenheide said...

Bamboo and all:

Rader's transaction where he "borrowed" one million bucks from the Church, bought a Beverly Hills house with it in the midst of a Southern California Real Estate Boom, made several million dollars for himself after selling the place a couple of years later and then "repaying" the church back the original one million, and then declaring "I did nothing wrong" is EXTREMELY edgy.

In fact, I would label this as "personal inurement". Im sure I could accomplish "millions" if I had interest free access to millions to work with and "then pay back" after having using it.



.....
I'm not an accountant but I think the edge of that question gets into the market rate for interest on money borrowed, and if you get a preferrential rate, whether that is declared as income to the IRS. I do not pretend to know the details of that issue, but I can ask!
.....


Rader had personal corporations that he set up to act as business surrogates to supply the church, including leasing companies, travel companies, and a couple of secretive Nevada trusts. None of these were ever audited to my knowledge, and they were never supervised correctly to see if they were overcharging the Church in any fashion.

....
I read about the Nevada trusts in Ambassador Report. I asked Kessler about them, and he said he would tell me, then he wimped out on the issue. He seemed to think they were rather inconsequential. That doesn't mean they were.
....

In reviewing WCGs asset reports over the years, I noticed that certain rumored "Gold Assets" alleged to be many gold bars that Armstrong had, suddenly appeared on the asset sheets after Tkach took over.

....
Joe Jr told me when he took over the executive office he found a safe where HWA kept "corporate jewelry". He said there were 18k Gold Rolexes, and a number of very expensive pieces of Jewelry. They were sold off by Joe.
....

I understand that "R.W." embezelled over a qaurter million during this era, thus showing the system was breached on occasion.

....


I think it was a gold investment thing when in the late 70s or early 80s when Gold was going up so fast.
I forget the exact details. It was some investment scheme. I could be mixing up two separate incidents. Didn't Tkach Sr also get caught in something minor along those lines?

R.W. of Publishing tried to make a killing on the market right when the price of gold tanked. And as so often happens when gambling, good money chased after bad money.
They really remarkable thing was HWA's reaction when R.W. got caught! He promoted him! "Good Job Brownie"

Again the breach occured at the department head level. The accounting systems were state of the art, they knew their cash position at any given moment. A lot of companies, even today, can't do that.

Then the Tkach's came in and decided the church need to be "run like a business" (it was already) and they trashed all the high security mainframe software and encrypting database to do things on very secure PCs with floppies! Quite a few us knew of the embedded incompetence, but it took a few years for it to be made manifest to the rest of the organization.
....


Nonetheless, even if things were technically "legally" and above board at all times, the morality of the extravagance of spending with money pressured from (for the most part) lower middle class to poor people is/was immoral.

....
AMEN TO THAT!

I used to ponder why it was God "let this happen" and didn't "fix" the WCG. God was never the author of that mess.

Bamboo_bends said...

Anonymous said:

I use to prelisten to WCG "to be played in all the churches" tapes to see if they were worth the effort people made to drive so far to church. If HWA said the words, "God planted two trees in the garden..." I gave the sermon.

ROTFL!!!!

I reached a point where I thought I 'd scream if I heard another ridiculous sermon about make-up.

Bamboo_bends said...

minimalist said...

Interesting info. But I've always wondered why Kessler stayed on board for years. Why didn't he leave in disgust ?



Kessler resigned in protest in 1981 (and was immediately disfellowshipped). Rader had been gone for a number of years already.

Jack's resignation letter to the board is on the Painful Truth web site. Its a no-holds barred expose of those board members. Its an interesting lesson in how anger sharpens the mind at times.

Papa Tkach restored Kessler's member status upon becoming PG.

They actually restored a number of people who were wrongly treated for speaking truth to power. People like Bill Dixon of Australia who got politically lynched by the Liberal hating ministry crowd.

Not everything the Tkach's did was bad or ill thought. Most of that came later.

Bamboo_bends said...

It looks like this was the approach that Wayne Cole had - and indeed maybe he did think there was nothing to hide.

...
Wayne Cole got thrown under the bus by more clever people. I think he was a sincere and well meaning man.

There was a conservative/liberal war raging, and the receivership was as near as I can tell instigated by the liberal side (GTA and Co.?) but misdirected in its aim.

But there's some cross over in all this with people who knew Rader on the other side, and I confess that's where I get totally confused on who did what.

I think in essence it was a big family dust-up in a very public forum and the Atty General was the unwitting Sap who stepped into..what was the phrase...the bowel of spiders!

Tom said...

BB

>>>I use to prelisten to WCG "to be played in all the churches" tapes to see if they were worth the effort people made to drive so far to church. If HWA said the words, "God planted two trees in the garden..." I gave the sermon.<<<

This comment suggests that you were an ordained minister?

Tom said...

My-two-cents

>>>Tom, you're pathetic. Nothing but rancor and anger and hate come out of your mouth.<<<

I was almost tempted to say, you're welcome to your misconceived opinion, but on second thoughts, you are not.

Tom said...

Tom said:
>>>>Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact.<<<

Dixon>>>Who exposed the accusations as false?<<<

Firstly, asking me questions doesn't prove that what I said is incorrect. If you have evidence that they were guilty, then post it.

Secondly, the state attorney didn't file any charges against either Stan Rader or HWA.

Thirdly, ministers circulating rumours and innuendos about financial impropriety on the part of Rader and HWA are not indisputable facts that will stand up to legal scrutiny in a court of law. Hence, the two men were exonerated by the state attorney.

On behalf of your friend, you may have been disappointed by the attorney's decision, but the facts speak for themselves.

Jared Olar said...

This comment suggests that you were an ordained minister?

Bamboo Bends was quoting Anonymous, so it is Anonymous, not BB, who was the ordained minister. (My guess at who Anonymous is -- our own Dennis Diehl perhaps?)

Anoneemoose said...

Poor old Tom can’t even remember who said what in this blog so how can he be expected to have any facts correct about situations that happened over 25 years ago.

He attributed a question I asked to Dixon.

Sorry Tom but you have just shoot down your own credibility.

You don’t get facts straight even when they are in writing right before you.

moose

Douglas Becker said...

Oh sure, Herbert Armstrong never never never ever did anything to compromise his place as the idol of idolaters who put him up on a pedestal. He may have had his imperfections, but he had both pure intentions and, more importantly, he was never sent to prison for his crimes because no one could get a conviction.

Moreover, he is NOT a false prophet just because he got the timing wrong.

The Lord and Master has fallen into the cesspool, surrounded by unconverted hirelings, but has come up smelling like roses!

But there's one charge from which he cannot be exonerated:

He was fat!

As a glutton, he even suffered a heart attack which very nearly ended his apostleship on the spot. Fortunately, with the billions of dollars which slipped through his fingers in his corrupt little empire -- which went to nothing particularly useful for mankind -- he had enough for doctors, which, if you recall, he conveniently reinstated when he needed them: Up until then the doctrine was that they were forbidden, except for "corrective surgery" and to get an opinion of what was wrong with you so you could be specific when you went to God, and only God, in faith, for your healing, should it ever occur. Malachi 2 seems oft to have been invoked though, where blessings of the ministry was cursed and deaths occurred immediately upon the anointing.

No, the one thing that would have definitely kept Herbert Armstrong out of the Kingdom of God, in which he set the worst, most visible example is that he was...

The
Roly Poly Apostle!

Douglas Becker said...

Concerning the website:


http://thevesselsofmercy.com

may I say as one who has established professional websites, except for the pretty stock photos it is among the most pathetic useless websites I've seen, with absolutely no other redeeming qualities than the pictures.

Beyond that, it isn't even worth any additional comment.

Stan said...

TOM:

You said...
>>>The state attorney general didn't wake up one morning and said, "Which church should I investigate today." <<
You got it, Tom. You finally got it. In the case of the WCG, the AG's office had to have a sound, legal foundation on which to proceed; unassailable probable cause; like any prosecutor has to have; otherwise he and the state could open themselves up for charges of abuse of process and official misconduct.
>>Some people, and according to HWA, including Wayne Cole were complicit in informing the attorney general that there were financial irregularities in the church.... This might have been done because of a dislike of Stan Rader, and the perceived influence he had over HWA, but it doesn't justify anyone making false allegations against the church...<<<
I haven't seen HWA quoted saying that C. Wayne Cole on his own personally informed the AG there “financial irregularities.” Just wanting to cooperate with the investigation was enough reason for Armstrong in his “night of long knives”. I don't know what C. Wayne Cole thinks about how church finances were handled under Armstrong in the seventies. He ought to candidly cover this topic in his sermons at Big Sandy COG to put the issue to rest. Cole could have been blissfully unaware of much of it; he probably just wasn't privy to as much of the damaging information as someone like Jack Kessler, Rader's partner. Jack Kessler has first hand knowledge of many of the facts, not the unsubstantiated allegations of a dubious rumor mill. For any in the WCG ministry or on the dummy Board of Elders still who still had a conscience, the knowledge contained in the Kessler letter must have have grated against their nerves.
What I have come to believe is that Wayne Cole and Herman Hoeh were informed about the receivership shortly before it commenced, but deliberately didn't tell Armstrong about it explicitly in advance so he could try to quash it before it got started. While Cole and Hoeh may have wanted Rader out of the way, they both were also probably sick of the way WCG finances were handled, and may have had the best of intentions in mind for Armstrong in the matter, having devoted their entire lives to the WCG. Regardless, the cooperation with the receivership meant Armstrong fired Cole and he threw off Hoeh from his dummy board. Armstrong was completely dependent on Rader for financial and legal advice, and for someone qualified to accompany him on the third tithe jet plane junkets to world leaders. Armstrong's dependency is reflected in Rader's salary, bonus money, and lifetime employment contract. Also, the fact Armstrong signed off on the one-sided agreement, with basically no outside review of counsel representing just the interests of the WCG, only what Rader wanted. Besides, Rader could have threated to expose HWA with what he knew without it getting back to himself. That might have included Rader's knowledge of his relationship with his daughter.

>>Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact.<<
At one time, an accountant working in the WCG accounting offices reported Rader to the California State Board of Accountancy the very real conflicts of interest Rader had in doing millions of dollars in business with the WCG while at the same time having the WCG as a client and representing it as an CPA and attorney. Rader wound up supposedly selling his interest in the partnership to prevent the appearance of an unethical conflict of interest. Rader knew he was at the very edge of the law where his actions could be characterized as unethical and possibly illegal, but it is very difficult to prove actual criminal intent when the transactions could possibly be legal if interpreted in another way.

Your conclusions about no financial “mismanagement” in the WCG are wishful thinking at best. The AG had Armstong's and Rader's neck in a noose which he was beginning to tighten up very nicely. Rader's frivolous constitutional legal arguments to attack the receivership had utterly failed. The one thing that saved them from probable prosecution for financial fraud and related charges is that they still had the legislature card to play. They heavily lobbied the legislature in every way imaginable to pass the Petris bill to get their nooses out of the neck. How that WCG bill came to be passed into law at the time it did is undoubtedly a bible study all in itself. After Petris was signed into law, Rader put enormous political pressure on the AG to drop the charges with full page newspaper ads, intending to spend as much as possible, blanketing California with negative swift boat-type attack ads to torpedo his chances at becoming governor. It worked. But there were a substantial number of Californians who strongly disagreed with the AG dropping these fraud cases after millions of tax dollars were spent, and wanted the 1979 financial investigations of the religious hucksters brought to a just conclusion.

Armstrong and Rader were clearly NOT exonerated from the financial fraud and other charges! The AG did not free them from a charge or imputation of guilt; he did not clear Armstrong, pronounce him not guilty, exculpate him, absolve him, or vindicate him on any of the charges. What the AG did do is drop the case against Armstrong, because the Petris legislation was signed into law, and because he was an ambitions politician, who was guided more by political expediency than by moral principle in further prosecuting Armstrong.

Stan

Anonymous said...

"But there's one charge from which he cannot be exonerated: He was fat!"

Douglas, it seems your hatred and cabalistic vitriol towards Mr. Armstrong knows no bounds. HWA was not fat by worldly standards, you may be surprised to know! This bottom of the barrel slander is just another piece of evidence against you in the case of God vs The Treacherous Heretics, which will soon "go to court," you may be surprised to learn!

Primarily, HWA was not fat in the context of gluttony. Being fat due to gluttony is a sin, and is really known as Wordly Fat. Mr. Armstrong, on the other hand, was Godly Fat. For one, he had no control over what he ate in the latter years, as he was surrounded by the Rader Cabal, virtually a Godly prisoner in a sea of cabalous treachery. Secondly, when he was preaching the Gospel around the world, he was forced to eat airplane food and foreign food, which all know contains high levels of white sugar and bleached flour. Thirdly, Bullinger points out that the Apostle Paul's "thorn in his side" may have been a metabolic disorder which would have rendered him on the weighty side. Lastly, do not forget the "Fatted Calf" used in scripture.

I hope this will prove to the AW Cabal that sadly, Douglas is scraping the bottom of the barrel in his hatred against God's End Time Apostle.

Paul (Channeling the Spirit of Tom Mahon, you may be surprised to learn!)

Anonymous said...

Mr. Paul Anaymous,

"the fatted calf …"

Interesting you should say that.

Have you sat in a grocery store parking lot recently and seen the "large" people walking in and out?

If a famine is coming, maybe they're carrying their insurance policies with them, where "thieves cannot break though and steal."

Anonymous said...

"If a famine is coming, maybe they're carrying their insurance policies with them, where "thieves cannot break though and steal.""

Ah! Good point! Mr. Armstrong was carrying all that extra Godly Weight to see him through the trek to Petra!


Paul

Neotherm said...

An allegation I have seen here a couple of times is that HWA had a jet paid for by Third Tithe.

Does anybody know if that is true and is there documentary evidence?

For that matter, there is something strange about all of this. Somewhere, someone has an extraordinary repository of evidence about the HWA years, evidence that has not seen light of day. Why is that? Current Armstrongites need to see that evidence and understand its implications about the spiritual condition of the people involved.
These would be the various records carefully kept in Pasadena all those years.

It is easy to make assertions but we do need documentation to complete the picture, if that documenation has not been destroyed.

Kind of like the incomplete picture surrounding GTA. He is accused of having relations with untold numbers of AC female students. But there no evidence has ever emerged on this. It seems like someone would break silence. And while GTA is always faulted, these women are not.

My guess is that GTA's activities are greatly overstated. Or these were the type of women who would not be likely to be harmed by his kind of illicit activity.

-- Neo

Douglas Becker said...

Mr. Armstrong was carrying all that extra Godly Weight to see him through the trek to Petra!

Paul, likely the whole three and one-half years.

Paul (Channeling the Spirit of Tom Mahon, you may be surprised to learn!)

I'm not certain how these things are supposed to work, but doesn't a person have to be like dead before their spirit can be channeled?

Douglas, it seems your hatred and cabalistic vitriol towards Mr. Armstrong knows no bounds.

I no more hate Herbert Armstrong than I do cobras. They have their place in keeping the ecology in balance, particularly insuring the elimination of the shallow end of the gene pool. However, I don't choose to have a lot of contact with either one. Even dead, each can be deadly, what will all the toxic poisons about.

No, the real point is that Herbert Armstrong did not have the fruit of the Holy Spirit. At least not temperance.

This bottom of the barrel slander is just another piece of evidence against you in the case of God vs The Treacherous Heretics, which will soon "go to court," you may be surprised to learn!

Sigh.

This is a first for me: The judgment of God against me brought by a righteous godly atheist prophet. Is there any money in that? Herbert Armstrong certainly found pecuniary remuneration.

Thanks, Paul.

Douglas Becker said...

Speaking of The Journal and Dixon Cartwright, Ken Wesby claims he is at the
Society of Biblical Literature Annual Convention in San Diego
:

"November 17 -- No Web Streaming this week, but live VC services from San Diego broadcast over the telephone network. (918-222-7158)

"I will be reporting from the annual meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) and joined in the program by Dixon Cartwright, editor of The Journal--News of the Churches of God. These meetings are attended by scholars from all over the world and is the biggest thing in theology."

We look forward to future reports in The Journal. Perhaps.

Jared Olar said...

Kind of like the incomplete picture surrounding GTA. He is accused of having relations with untold numbers of AC female students. But there no evidence has ever emerged on this. It seems like someone would break silence. And while GTA is always faulted, these women are not.

My guess is that GTA's activities are greatly overstated. Or these were the type of women who would not be likely to be harmed by his kind of illicit activity.


I've been informed by others who say they know personally of some AC coeds who were seduced by GTA, and as I recall, at least one of them fathered one of GTA's bastards.

This summer I also learned that GTA reportedly kept one of his mistresses up near the old SEP camp at Orr, Minnesota. The woman -- so I was told by a friend who had visited the old SEP camp this summer and had talked with some people there -- still lives in the area, and she had a daughter with GTA. (My friend's informant had been one of the pioneer SEP campers from 1965.)

I'm not sure we should expect these women to come forward, since they could have been silenced by a mix of shame, religious intimidation, and presumably a monetary payout. Looking at it from their perspective, it's really not in their interest to announce to the world that they were impregnated by (or are the children of) a perverted televangelist.

Robert said...

>>>Mr. Armstrong, on the other hand, was Godly Fat.

Now there is a new term for it. Godly fat! I can just imagine the scene, no doctor, its not fat, its Godly fat! There is a difference.

I agree I have some myself and it is my insurance policy to get me through the hard times ahead. (lol). Though I will be stocking up on cans of beans, spaghetti, and anything that I can get my hands on, just before the dreadful day of the Lord. Well, we all need at least one last good meal!

Douglas Becker said...

You know Robert, Proverbs does say that the liberal soul shall be made fat.

Anyway, what follows is advice for the idolaters who worship Herbert Armstrong, given as a public service in the church of gods:

Hefty Herbert Armstrong may have been big enough to have his own zip code if he hadn't felt compelled to travel so much to "keep the ball rolling" so to speak. As a man of substantial means, or just substantial substance, any icon beyond a simple small picture nailed to the wall could risk falling and breaking something.

If you have a full sized portrait, insure that the picture frame has proper support. If you are going to have a Buddha-like statue of him, say, in your garden grotto, be certain that you have a heavy load bearing support which will not crumble. Consult professional construction engineers for details. Marble is nice, but be certain that it is cut in such a way that it won't give way. A kneeling rock in front of the place of honor would certainly complete the ambiance. It isn't clear that Flurry would part with his, but you never know: He may be short cash and find the right offer attractive. It's worth a try.

Marble statues or iron ones, such as the one for Lenin, yet another despot, may be enough for those who have formed their own, yet another cult spit-off, of the church of gods, but nothing would beat solid gold, if it is in the budget. Your idol should be as close to Buddha in substance as possible, to honor the dead false prophet upon which you ostensibly [but not factually] build your new-found man-made religion with you at the center of it. Family ministries may not be able to fulfill the full solid gold vision, but do everything you can, because in the long term, this will have to last you a life time.

And just remember, you won't be able to take it with you, where you are going, so enjoy it while you still can.

Gold melts and your shrine will be a mess at the end of it all.

ConnedNoMore said...

Neotherm opined:

"Kind of like the incomplete picture surrounding GTA. He is accused of having relations with untold numbers of AC female students. But there no evidence has ever emerged on this. It seems like someone would break silence. And while GTA is always faulted, these women are not."

Well, I personally knew (not in the
biblical sense) four (4) Pasadena
Pasadena AC coeds and two female
employees who were in fact seduced by GTA, plus rumours of others.

And no, they didn't invite his advances --curbstone opinions
notwithstanding.

Bamboo_bends said...

Tom wrote:

In spite of the fact that God inspired the apostle Paul to write:


Now how do you know God inspired anything Paul wrote? Is your source Catholic tradition? The question is a valid question.

I can live with a Bible filled with different opinions, can you?

I don't pretend to piece it together in some whole puzzle that was never there.


“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgement” (1 Cor.1:10),



If Jesus said you'd know his own by those that love one another, and Paul says "I don't want any difference of opinion", which do you think should carry the greater weight?



Mr. Cole, according to the November/December issues of The Journal, preached a sermon advocating tolerance of doctrinal divisions and differences in practice amongst the churches of God. Yet The Chosen Vessel, in addition to saying, “that there be no divisions among you,” was also inspired to pray: “that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Roms.15:6). How can we glorify God with one mind if there are doctrinal divisions and practices amongst us? Perhaps Mr. Cole would like to explain?


Perhaps the old guy is getting the big picture that there isn't a hair's breadth of difference in any of the Amstrong splinter groups.

Something that seems to be eluding you.

And no, I am not "ordained" but I was once offered that by someone who will remain nameless if I joined "their side". "We like you, you're a fighter!"

And such an offer from an institution that judged me not to be ministerial material while I was in college. I think of that as a badge of honor now.

Anonymous said...

C. Wayne Cole, Where Are You?

Anonymous said...

>>>>Anonymous said...
C. Wayne Cole, Where Are You?<<<


For starters......
http://cog7.org/convention_review.html

Jared Olar said...

If Jesus said you'd know his own by those that love one another, and Paul says "I don't want any difference of opinion", which do you think should carry the greater weight?

Well, St. Paul never said, that we know of, "I don't want any difference of opinion," but he did speak against the sin of schism. The same Jesus who said Christians will be identifiable by their love for one another also prayed that they all may be one. So it seems Jesus and St. Paul were all on the same page when it comes to "divisions" (which are rather more than a simple difference of opinion).

camfinch said...

"Are you implying that people from West Bromwich can't speak English, because the majority of them speak with a Black Country accent?"

Tom, I wish I'd had a chance to read your response earlier, when you would've still been following this thread, but I was out of town for a couple of days. But just in case you're still tuning in...

I would NEVER criticize a Black Country accent! My wife grew up on the Darlaston side of Wednesbury. And we own a house (which we rent out to tenants) in Netherton. Criticize the Black Country?? I'm not like all the anti-Black Country bigots who range across Britain.

Don't worry, as a Wolves supporter, I'm used to the embarrassments. Both Albion and Wolves are currently doing well, especially Albion. We'll see how it turns out by end of season.

Camfinch in Charlotte

Tom said...

Camfinch

>>>I would NEVER criticize a Black Country accent! My wife grew up on the Darlaston side of Wednesbury. And we own a house (which we rent out to tenants) in Netherton. Criticize the Black Country?? I'm not like all the anti-Black Country bigots who range across Britain.<<<

Darlaston! it is part of the industrial heartland of the UK, with some very wonderful people. I live about a mile from the centre of Darlaston.

The people who criticise the Black Country don't realise how much the Black Country has contributed to the industrial revolution, that is responsible the development of the whole world. The development came about because God kept his promise to Abraham to bless his children with the abundance of the earth.

>>>Don't worry, as a Wolves supporter, I'm used to the embarrassments. Both Albion and Wolves are currently doing well, especially Albion. We'll see how it turns out by end of season.<<<

Both Albion and Wolves glory days will return again. Just be patient!

>>>Camfinch in Charlotte<<<

North Carolina! Oops. The HQ of LCG is located there, so don't be surprised if you have to flee when God's judgment descends upon the place.

Robert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
camfinch said...

Tom wrote:

North Carolina! Oops. The HQ of LCG is located there, so don't be surprised if you have to flee when God's judgment descends upon the place.


Well, I don't know why Charlotte would be any more on the bad side of the deity's judgement than any other city, despite LCG's HQ being twenty minutes' drive from my home. Charlotte is a good place to live, but it is true that we want to be living in that house in Netherton, a few minutes' walk from the legendary Ma Pardoes' (the Old Swan) in the fairly near future.