Pages

Thursday, 22 November 2007

Revisionist history

Remember the Global Church of God, publisher of The World Ahead?

A gaggle of the good and the great departed from the Tkach Dominion in an effort to turn back time. Principal among them, Roderick C. Meredith and Raymond F. McNair.

To cut a long story short, the Global Board dumped the Meredith ego, but the dumbest of the sheep followed the Imperious One into exile. A new all-Meredith sect was established - one where all the less-than-leading evangelists (i.e. everyone other than Rod) - knew their place. Thus was the Living Church of Rod formed.

Meredith took the mailing list, Global was gutted, the GCG defaulted on loans, crashed and burned. A few of the loyalists - those who knew Meredith too well to go whoring after the Imperious Leader - ultimately, like Larry Salyer, ended up in UCG.

The brave attempt to see Meredith off occurred nine years ago, and to mark the occasion Bob Thiel has posted a little revisionist account of the event. Rod is the noble hero, along with his boot-licking cabal. LCG, Bob tells us, has had 2,600 baptisms since then.

Well, with the amount of tithing and obligatory fasting LCG requires, it'd be surprising if there hadn't been a swag of baptisms, and 2.6k indeed sounds impressive compared to some other Armstrong sects.

But what I'd like Bob to share with us all is the retention rate. How many of those who sign up to the pseudo-Philadelphian Work of Rod last twelve months, 3 years, five? WCG itself had a revolving door, and turnover in PCG and the micro-splinters can reach well beyond 50%. How many have been seduced by Chuckie Bryce, Dave Pack, old Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all? In the time I've been following the fortunes of LCG there has been a consistent pattern of hemorrhaging.

The big drama is still in the future when the sweet chariot swings low for the Imperious Evangelist himself. Hands up all those who think there will be a smooth and enduring transition? Alas, Rod's hierarchical mentality can only bequeath a bunfight among the pretenders to the throne. Then the question of the hour will surely be which way Bob will jump.

46 comments:

Anonymous said...

2,600 baptisms is what to a cultist church that is trying to teach/preach the world some bullshit warning to the world? What a joke! If everyone quit dying for a thousand years the goal would never be accomplished. At it stands now, the 2 in the morning embarrassing sideshows that the LCG puts out should gain only a few alcoholics and insomniacs before the next best "feasts of all feasts!!

Anonymous said...

When one thinks of Bob Thiel, the words "apologist", or "spin doctor" are the words which immediately come to mind. Unfortunately, he never seems to have read the book "How to Rede and Spel Gud" and thinks that Grammar is his father's mom.

All manner of cliches come to mind to explain the COGwriter phenomenon, such as "the victor gets to write the history", "the ends justify the means", or even "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

It's embarrassing to even mention a statistic like 2,600 people baptized in 9 years when one is bragging about doing a worldwide work of warning the world of the end times. Thiel just gave his guru a failing grade on his report card, and probably doesn't even realize it. Joel Osteen has experienced more growth than that in the past year in one church in one city in Texas, and probably with more Christian fruits in his new members' lives! Oops, I forgot! They can't be Christians because they don't even keep the sabbath, and probably all wear pagan crosses, so any Christ-like behavior is irrelevant.

BB

Anonymous said...

Well - what do I expect - this is your blog. I wonder if others are starting to feel as tired as I am of the negativism, sarcasm and ego you put forth. I am not going to bother coming back here.

Anonymous said...

Gavin Said:

"The brave attempt to see Meredith off occurred nine years ago, and to mark the occasion Bob Thiel has posted a little revisionist account of the event...."

All religions that come out on top of the heap are revisionists. Nothing is never quite as reported, especially by the victims. "Oh that's just an old idea that has been discounted long ago." "It was not like that at all."

Churches sanitize, pastorize and revise their long ago and recent histories all the time. Religious libraries probably keep more out of the inquisitive eye than they share.

Ecclesiastical reigns of terror, repression cooperation with the forces of evil to save their own hides is common. However, one would never expect it happened and it's memory is nicely removed from the masses to give other impressions. They ALL do it.

The religious personalities of the past "NEVER" did this or that. Or, events have been greatly exaggerated. It's part of the job of the clergy to revise the story kindly but firmly away from the realities of the past. WCG turned a Receivership due to misappropriation of given funds etc, into an attack by Satan for sure against God's chosen. Dave Pack sees it that way to this day, however, we know better. With Jonestown fresh in the California psyche, it was prudent to check. Oh i forgot, Satan caused Jonestown to prepare the soil for the attack on God's true church. Sorry, dumb me.

Luther was misunderstood. This or that early church father, whose ideas we revere, really didn't cut his balls off for Jesus or believe that women were the spawn of Satan and needed to be treated as such.

The Inquisition was really just a very small thing, lasted about a week, and really, really, we spoke up during the Holocaust and saved millions of the damn Christ killers.

And of course we agreed with Galileo, we just didn't like his attitude. He had a church mailing list and was sending out diagrams of his beliefs and disturbing the brethren. We hardly had time to show the Bible really said the earth wasn't flat and the stars weren't spirits after all. We just needed time to show the sheep we ALWAYS understood what he was explaining to us. Please stop saying it is no coincidence that the rise of the Church was at the beginning of the Dark Ages.

An yes, we agree evolution is not just a theory, but give us time to look smarter than we are and how to explain this to the commoners.

Milwaukee was of Satan and we NEVER said you had to only trust God for healing. Make up was ok, just not preferable and Bob Thiel accurately accounts for all the reasons, motives, pressures and nutcases in the COGs.


"Everyone who has every opposed me either dies or has suffered greatly...." This has been changed to "All the great leaders of God have had to loose a wife."
Hint: Don't marry a clergyman.

And last but not least, the Bible itself has NEVER been edited, redacted, sanitized or revised by prophets, priests, kings, clergy or church fathers, who never new a woman, to reflect the winners of hundreds of years of there never actually ever being one coherent and true church of God that was small and is still out there somewhere to be found if God likes you enough.

All churches revise their real histories as the years go on. It's miraculous how all such divergent types end up directly related to the Jerusalem Church under James, or was it Peter? Their leaders are direct descendents of the Apostles and Jesus is their best friend in and out of this world.

And let's not forget what we had revised for us all in this country in the past 7 years...and how easily the masses seem to accept it.

"America is a Christian nation...

The United States was founded upon Judeo Christian principles...

The separation of state and church is a myth, with no basis in law"

We revise what we despise and does not futher our present cause. That's why it takes hundreds if not a thousand years for institutions to utter a simple "we are sorry. That was wrong and does not reflect what we have learned since."

Bob Thiel is the happy apologist for LCG just as others are for their true found faiths. It's normal and to be expected. It's always the santitized version we follow in our heads. That's how we cope and keep on with it all, until we don't.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Well - what do I expect - this is your blog. I wonder if others are starting to feel as tired as I am of the negativism, sarcasm and ego you put forth. I am not going to bother coming back here.

Fri Nov 23, 02:15:00 AM NZDT


How about if " you " post a positive comment instead of a complaining negative one.

Stand up and be a positive example....be a man instead of a '..non..mous'



( Parden me if I'm addressing a lady instead of a laddie )

Unknown said...

Anonymous said...

>>>Well - what do I expect - this is your blog. I wonder if others are starting to feel as tired as I am of the negativism, sarcasm and ego you put forth. I am not going to bother coming back here.<<<

What a relief? Instead of having to scroll pass your inane comments, I can now go straight to the more erudite observations of Douglas, Bill, Paul, Corky and Stingerski, not to mention Dixon, at whose feet we are required to worship so that he might publish our letters.

Douglas Becker said...

Are we quite sure the baptisms claimed aren't counted from the WCG era?

Such claims always seem to embody some sort of revisionism.

Nevertheless, murders in Living, as a unique public event among the church of gods stands as a witness.

What a way to spread "the gospel".

As for Bob Thiel, we've all given up long ago trying to figure out just which malady he has, as described in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders beyond his obvious contribution to being a narcissistic source and not a little narcissistic himself -- some sort of mental case, but we're just not sure what kind.

Well - what do I expect - this is your blog. I wonder if others are starting to feel as tired as I am of the negativism, sarcasm and ego you put forth. I am not going to bother coming back here.

A built in lie: They keep coming back again and again anyway -- not unlike the fascination of those watching a massive car crash on the Interstate.

Sorry, but Gavin is doing the Biblical thing and marking those who cause division [although I'm betting that wasn't on his mind when posting this].

But then, Armstrongists ignore the clear instructions of the Bible, make up their own delusions and completely ignore the Will of God in favor of their own.

What a relief? Instead of having to scroll pass your inane comments, I can now go straight to the more erudite observations of Douglas, Bill, Paul, Corky and Stingerski, not to mention Dixon, at whose feet we are required to worship so that he might publish our letters.

As opposed to the non erudition of Tom Moron, whose level of understanding is commensurate with Psalms 111:10 where this nouveau cultmeister objects to the truth he refuses to acknowledge, violating Psalms 3:5 with his own version: "Trust in yourself and lean to your own understanding" -- perfectly understandable, since he speaks not according to the Word and there is no light in him per Isaiah 8:20. Rejoice in the fulfillment of prophecy, his light has gone out, just like when you shut the refrigerator door.

And he continues to play games, just like a psychopath, by changing definitions and terms, then judging others [as condemned by Christ] based on his own particular cultish scale of self-righteousness. Obviously devoid of any of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, this pathetic excuse should seriously consider Romans 2:4 and repent. But then, this man is the center of his own universe -- a god in his own right -- who thinks he has the luxury to ignore God and refuses to obey His Will to expound upon his own version of revisionist history.

$5,000.

In that, I will fix that stupid article on Lot's Wife.

The reason he has such trouble with Mr. Cartwright is that he is uncooperative with godly people. Dixon keeps the Sabbath and Holydays, but that's not enough for this man who has created his own man-made religion because he can't cooperate with anyone else: Shades of Roderick Meredith! This man is his own hireling!

Anonymous said...

Anon. said :

The separation of state and church is a myth, with no basis in law

Actually, that is essentially true. According to David Kupelian in his The Marketing Of Evil on p. 41 he states:

- In 1777, with the Revolutionary War threatening the flow of Bibles from England, Congress approved the purchase of twenty thousand Bibles from Holland to give to the States.

- No fewer than six of the thirteen original States had official, state-supported churches.

- Continental Congress routinely designated days of fasting and prayer and other religious observances, appointed government-funded chaplains, and appropriated money to pay for Christian missionaries to convert the Indians.

Clearly there was no separation of church & state, as the federal government allowed the States to pursue these matters as they wished.

I'm no fan of organized religion. But I also understand that, according to the 1st amendment of the U.S. Constitution, Congress has no right in prohibiting any of this. And by extension, nor do the courts. They have no right to pass any law or issue any court order that interferes with the free exercise of religion, be that a Christmas tree or Menorah display on a pubic lawn, the posting of the 10C in a court house, or banning people from praying in public places.

Again, I remind everyone, I am no fan of organized religion. Nor would I participate in such exercises as those. But I would defy any government to stop me from doing so!

The 1st amendment was designed to protect the church from the state, and not the other way around, as the red diaper babies and the A.C.L.U. are trying to convince us.

Anonymous said...

We grow tired of everything but turning others into ridicule, and congratulating ourselves on their defects.
William Hazlitt (1778-1830) British essayist.

Robert said...

How well is the LCG going?

Well I have passed on one perspective member their way in the UK.

Unfortunately there wasn't an UCG church group in the area (and the one was some distance away).

It would not have been my first choice, - the LCG (but at least they are better than Hulme's group), but the man was convinced that he did not really want to go to his local adventist church (as he felt that they were preaching all the truth).

Anonymous said...

This is off-topic, but I'll post it anyway. I see that three people whom Gavin has written about in recent months will all be speaking at the same conference. Westar Institute Spring Meeting, 2008, March 5-8, in Santa Rosa California. The three I am referring to are Karen Armstrong, A-J Levine, John Shelby Spong. There are others too.

If I recall correctly, Santa Rosa is where Herman Hoeh grew up.

Anonymous said...

I's all confusing to see the many different groups and independent individuals all claiming to be 'the real thing.'

To be sure, we are all being judged individually by Christ himself right now, and only his judgement is the one that counts.

Therefore, it behooves us all to be sure we're walking in the light being led by his Spirit. It doesn't matter which group you belong to if you are walking in darkness and speak evil or falsely of anyone. Remember 'Satan is the accuser of the brethren.' Therefore, it is better to keep one's mouth shut if we don't know enough as Christ to be judging his brethren.

I love you all, and I am saddened to see all the backstabbing and innuendos being thrown in the different directions. Can't we all get along in His Spirit? Haven't we learned to be real Christians yet? What will it take? The great tribulation? How about 'loving our enemies and praying for them'?

I exhort all who read this to look within ourselves and make sure that we are letting Christ really live in us and guide our daily lives.

Sincerely,
A brother in Christ.

Douglas Becker said...

Therefore, it behooves us all to be sure we're walking in the light being led by his Spirit.

Last year, my wife and I attended the Feast with the brethren in the wilderness. At least three churches were represented: The hosting church, people from United and Living. Everyone got along. The time was inspiring. I had the privilege of singing "The Holy City" for special music. The only nit was mama moose chased the minister, but he was not hurt by deadly things, so it turned out OK.

The above poster is attempting the sentiment represented here:

Unity in the
Church


and the flash here:


How Good and Pleasant


What we are seeing a phenomenon best described by James 4, except that in this case, I'm not entirely certain we are dealing with Christians with the Holy Spirit. More like Pharisees dealing with Christ when he started telling them the truth about themselves.

I know that both Dixon Cartwright and Bill Lussenheide both keep the Sabbath and the Feast with their families. Dixon is an honorable family man who can be well justified in taking pride in his illustrious son.

Perhaps it's just me, but I find it truly disturbing that Tom, that founder of his own man-made religion, pretending to be following in the steps of Herbert Armstrong, slanders and libels such men with absolutely no understanding at all, not discriminating that perhaps he has cast himself in the role of Satan the Devil. To Tom I say, and have said, repent. Let me add a bit to that. Perhaps the Goodness of God will lead you to repentance. Let us hope so. But the danger is that things going well may set the belief in the proposition that you are doing well. Justice is not executed speedily. His Mercy never fails. Sooner or later though, God's patience, in one sense, comes to an end and the pleading begins. It begins with correction and, if that doesn't work, it ends in punishment. Personally, when things are going really well is the time I look well to myself to see if it is God leading me to repentance. It's never wise to ignore the signs.

But maybe, after the beating many here have taken at the hands of the Leaders of the church of gods -- who are the real problem, what with all their lies, deceptions and delusions -- those who have had occasion to say "enough is enough" and have turned away from religion entirely, whether atheists, agnostics or Deists, there are those who would prefer the principle of Karma. Certainly, most have some sort of life experiences which has convinced them that such a principle exists and really, really works [except when it doesn't].

In any event, those who take it upon themselves as wrong-headed Armstrongists, willing to ignore all the evidence around them to live in their perfect Pharisaical Universe so they can be at the center of it -- the ones who practice empty rituals devoid of faith, thinking they have salvation in their blasphemy and idolatry -- oft find that their lives go along swimmingly for a long time as they indulge themselves in the luxury of throwing rocks at everybody else. Unfortunately, most often, the rocks roll back down hill and bury them, to crush them, often at the very worst time.

There is something very disturbing about such people. My tolerance for cultmeisters, scam artists, self-proclaimed prophets and apostles [even if de facto], narcissists, psychopaths and games players is at an all time low, probably because I've encountered so many of them in my life time, particularly in the last five years. They are everywhere and they wax worse and worse. Mercy for them and their way is not much of an option for me any longer.

Therefore, I adhere to the principle of exposing such people as much as is possible, marking them, rejecting them and turning away from them. I have found that a relationship with them can come to no good.

From my perspective, it is all a part of the very disturbing ethic long held by most humans throughout history and most strongly held now, that the end justifies the means. This seems to me to be the core basis of Armstrongism, not that it isn't found in the Church Corporate at large, Corporations, government and academia. The perspective is accompanied by annoying trivialization that those not associated with, well, your association are inferior, and even those within the association at the lower levels are inferior to the leadership of the elite. The downtrodden are even more so as a result and opportunists, such as Tom, take every advantage to put themselves on a pedestal, generally at the expense of everyone else and profits by basing the pedestal upon the foundation of the elite, former elite and dead false apostles without having one shred of integrity in the claims that they are following in the path and footsteps of their predecessor held up as an idol for all to see.

In fact, they may very well be following in the footsteps of their predecessor, but not in the way they think. They follow the path of least resistance and fail the temperance test, only to lie, connive, play games, deceive and make false predictions in their pretences. This serves to bolster their ego and make them competitors for the position of God. In short, they are the very flower of the Pharisees, the children of Satan the Devil.

And they have to make excuses. Instead of following a perfect God, they follow -- or pretend to -- an imperfect man, who they often impeach as their own witness.

Some here may be puzzled by the reactions of such individuals such as myself. It's easy: The first efforts of psychopaths and game players is to wreck the credibility of those they know could be a threat to them -- those who will expose the truth. A number of people, particularly my boss at work, have told me that I am a "truth seeker". That is a double-edged sword. It certainly makes me the target of vitriol for those who hate the truth. At first, my reaction was to hide out in passive-aggressive mode, but that's exactly what they look for: Someone who will back down. These days, I am not inclined to endure crap nor take prisoners.

So the irony may be that some people who slander Dixon and Bill may be the very ones who will be nuclear ash under their feet in the future. Oh, we could hope for repentance, but there isn't much optimism at this end, so let the chips fall where they may.

And I think I may leave it at this.

Judgment, if any awaits.

And the first year I posted that, was the year that the shootings in Living occurred. Maybe there is no connection. But then again....

May those in the United States enjoy and fully participate in Thanksgiving. Some day I will share my recipe for stuffing with you -- the one with pine nuts, which my wife and I had today after a prayer of thanksgiving. In the meantime, just realize, you were not the first, since Canada had one before you did.

Robert said...

Can some of the old timers on the forum tell me if they have heard of Church of God New Testament Judaism? They are in Jerusalem Acres, Cleeveland.

Are they a WCG split?

see website www.thechurchofgodntj.org/

Douglas Becker said...

Can some of the old timers on the forum tell me if they have heard of Church of God New Testament Judaism? They are in Jerusalem Acres, Cleeveland.

Are they a WCG split?


Never heard of them before.

Doesn't look like it after seeing the videos and listening to some of the sermons: There is no flavor of Armstrongism there.

Here it is 20 years after the death of Herbert Armstrong and Sabbath keeping congregations seem to be popping up all over -- ones which don't ever seem to have had any connection with the WCG.

What exactly was it Jesus said about raising up stones?

Uh, not that some CoGers had anything but rocks in their heads, mind you -- and not The Rock, to be sure.

Douglas Becker said...

40 Years

For those of you who [wrongly] believe that the Laodocean Era of the WCG began at the death of Loma Armstrong, here's a news note:

2007 is the 40 year anniversary of the Death of Loma Armstrong.

Let us have a moment of silence.

Followed by loud hyperbole.

Anonymous said...

Maybe some of the 2,600 baptisms in the previous true church were held to be invalid and were actually LCG re-baptisms.

Or maybe Merrydeath dunked himself underwater 2,600 times in a row to inflate his statistics. But that would be water boarding!

Anonymous said...

Oh, to be bludgeoned by Bob's reasoning yet again. A typical "proof" statement designed to imply larger-than-actual numbers and influence, comes when he makes this reference to the LCG: "It has reached millions through television, plus millions through the internet."

No, the stations that they buy time on reach millions. The programs themselves? Debatable. And "millions" through the internet? Why, because the internet reaches millions? Yeah, I'm sure millions are just flocking to their program and web site. Z-z-z-z-z.

It's like Flurry. Ever watch a few minutes of his program, and try to either make sense of it, or imagine anyone thirsting for biblical knowledge ever wanting to stop and listen? He makes no pretense of trying to connect with the listener. No effort to make his message relevant. He speaks as if people are just out there waiting for him to come into their lives. And son is following father. His "most amazing story" book is laughable, since NOBODY CARES about HWA, JWT, or the story -- except maybe their own members, who are ignorant enough to cut off family members as they keep sending in their money with hands a-shaking. It's all such a shame.

The media techniques of the COGs are mostly show and little substance, which began with HWA and the old WCG. Print 8 million copies of a magazine (in full-colour, no less) and throw them out there wherever you can, and you can claim a huge circulation and imply that it means you're being blessed and that it validates your "true church" credentials. But who was impressed by those 8 million copies a month? Not the public, by a long shot. But that didn't matter. The members were impressed, so they kept on sending in their money in support, and growth could be claimed, and on and on it went.

That's all that the COGs know, and as long as it sustains their "headquarters" operations, it's what they'll keep doing. Look at Pack. I came across newsstand fliers of his pretentiously named "The Real Truth" at a local merchant, and couldn't believe my eyes. Here we go again. The title alone suggests a conspiracy-theory rag, not a serious, biblically based publication. Of course, the hyperbole at his braggadocio web site zips even further down that boulevard, so one shouldn't be surprised, I guess.

"Millions and millions served." Even McDonald's only says "served" -- without implying that the customers necessarily swallowed anything.

Anonymous said...

Stingerski said...

The 1st amendment was designed to protect the church from the state, and not the other way around

No, the 1st amendment was designed to protect the people from the church having the power of the state behind it to force people to obey the clergy and accept Christianity as the Catholic Church did in Spain with the Inquisition and the Church of England did in England.

Before the independence of America, it was hard to tell where the king's authority ended and the Church's authority began and really seemed to be one and the same.

But, even so, some states did back the church in many things. Later, a Civil War was fought because of the church's sanction of slavery and the states claiming their own constitutions trumped the federal constitution.

When you get right down to it, religion interfering in the making of state lsws caused the Civil War.

Anonymous said...

Robert refers to "perspective members."

Surely he means PROSPECTIVE members...

Or do words have different definitions in his region of the UK?

Anonymous said...

Don't forget to subtract all the fallen at the Great Milwaukee Suicide Shoot-'em-Up

Anonymous said...

Anon said:

No, the 1st amendment was designed to protect the people from the church having the power of the state behind it to force people to obey the clergy . . .

So, do you agree then with the Federal govt. when they repeatedly violate the first amendment by prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Anon said:

When you get right down to it, religion interfering in the making of state lsws caused the Civil War.

Actually, slavery is way, way down on the list as to any of the causes of the War Between the States. Most Northerners favored slavery, as can be shown from the records. They were not about to go and fight to free a slave population that later could come north and compete for their jobs.

The root cause of the War was money. (No surprise there.) And it was the money going to the North via a very high import tariff that was starving the South of resources. This is akin to states like Massachusetts getting back $2.70 on their fed dollar for highway construction, while states like Florida only get $0.60 back. (And the last time I looked, the population shift was definitely in Florida's direction.)

Nor were the northern industrialists in any mood to watch an increasingly industrializing South start to compete with their interests. They had a good thing going and they intended to keep it that way. A little warfare was good for business too.

Lincoln, who was beholden to such interests, was also very much a Nationalist, and had no tolerance for the states rights issue. Which is how he also got away with helping the first income tax being passed, and the suspension of habeas corpus during the War. And the 30,000 or so Northerners who were locked away in jail with no trail were witness to that.

But I digress. States rights is a dead issue now. Which is why the almighty federal govt. continues to violate our Constitution on a regular basis. The very people who have sworn to uphold our Constitution make a mockery of it. Little Susie can't pray in a public school classroom. But she CAN receive in that same classroom state funded birth control, and even directions to the nearest state funded abortuary should she choose such, even against the wishes of her parents.

The camel's nose (of the state) got under the tent of religion decades ago. And now it is trying to either take over that tent, or destroy it all together.

Anonymous said...

when Ted finally left CGI, a number of "faithful followers" went with him....and as soon as he was in the ground they started fighting amongst themselves and split into several groups....(I'm sure money played a significant part in the disputes)

sadly, I see no reason to doubt the same will happen when Rod begins his dirt nap.....such is the way of the personality driven religions.

Douglas Becker said...

when Ted finally left CGI, a number of "faithful followers" went with him....and as soon as he was in the ground they started fighting amongst themselves and split into several groups....(I'm sure money played a significant part in the disputes)

sadly, I see no reason to doubt the same will happen when Rod begins his dirt nap.....such is the way of the personality driven religions.


But, but, but! Hey wait just one minute! Living has a name that is alive but it is dead, particularly after the shootings, so according to Revelation 3, it is the Sardis Era of the church and will continue until Jesus returns!

The Philadelphia and Laodocean Eras have yet to appear!

You just can't argue with the Prophecies of the Bible!

Unknown said...

Gavin said:

>>>The brave attempt to see Meredith off occurred nine years ago, and to mark the occasion Bob Thiel has posted a little revisionist account of the event. Rod is the noble hero, along with his boot-licking cabal. LCG, Bob tells us, has had 2,600 baptisms since then.<<<

I am very familiar with the events leading up to the break-up of Global in 1998. The gang of four, consisting Larry Sayler, Norbert Link, Edwin Pope and Raymond McNair, with support of Colin Adair and a few other rogues, conspired to change to bye- laws of Global to remove Meredith, because they didn't like Meredith solely setting the agenda for the church.

Meredith fought them all the way, but in the end, the bye law changes gave the gang of four the legal right to remove board members. So after Carl McNair, and if I remember correctly, Mrs. Meredith were removed. Meredith finally realised that the gang's plot was to hijack the church, and oust him. So he left and started LCG, as the gang then had the legal right to the Global name.

At the time of the break-up of Global, I was attending with Global UK. The local elder and his cohort, who was ordained a deacon by Colin Adair, supported the gang of four. As a consequence, I left Global and attended with LCG until the end of FOT 2000.

I was invited by Carl McNair to join LCG's UK board, and was asked to oversee 3 video groups, including the largest group in London. I met both Carl McNair and Dr. Meredith at board meetings. In 1999 was LCG UK coordinator for FOT in Scotland, and was with Bob League at the 2000 FOT in Barbados, where I gave several sermons, including the sermon on the Last Great Day.

However, it would take me too long to say why I left LCG. Suffice to say, I objected to Dr. Meredith employing Richard Ames, who remained 18 months in WCG, as the pastor of the Glendora congregation, and never once told that congregation that he disagreed with Tkach's doctrinal changes. In addition, Dr. Meredith and Carl McNair signed an ecclesiastical determination, excommunicating the gang of four, and branding them enemies of the church. Yet to placate Carl, Meredith allowed Raymond to return to LCG, with an undisclosed salary. I also objected to this, as I don’t understand how one could excommunicate people, brand them enemies of the church, and then allow then to attend services?
Furthermore, Dr. Meredith considers himself HWA’s natural successor, and even though he doesn’t say so openly, he makes the case by stating how well knew HWA and closely he worked with him over the years. Apart from Meredith’s self commendation, he still clings to most of the doctrinal errors of the old WCG. Many of these doctrinal errors can be found on Bob Thiel’s web site, which is replete with heretical opinions.

Douglas Becker said...

To which I add, Roderick Meredith is and always has been a false prophet from the time he became a minister:

The Divine Dr.
M.


That a person would choose to go with Rod Meredith speaks world to what that person is like: Mostly harsh and judgmental, without much kindness.

I thoroughly understand the appeal of Meredith back when with Global. A man who had joined up with him in the early nineties stopped by WCG services while it was undergoing the new covenant crapology and made a pitch. It was really appealing, but the thing is, it was all about prophecy -- the man told me that Meredith was bringing back prophecy. Upon reflecting upon this and considering 1975 in Prophecy, which was fully fleshed out with false prophecies by Meredith in the Plain Truth in the Sixties, I decided not to change one bad cult for another -- at least at that time.

What didn't come out in the above posting is the documented lies for which the Rod of God plied to the Global congregations and divulged in the predecessor to The Journal: He flat out lied about submitting to the authority of his own board. He did the very unchristian thing of bankrupting his own church because of his ego.

In the aftermath, he allowed the idolatry of McNair bowing down and worshipping him with tears, begging to be allowed to remain.

He was also responsible for the meetings outlined by the Manpower Papers -- slandering students of AC. No mentor or helper of our joy there.

After seeing the lies, deceptions, false prophecies and the decidedly unChristian behavior, I concluded for myself that Roderick Meredith is no saint and the instructions of II Timothy 3 for someone so loving of himself, heady, highminded, full of betrayal, that the best thing to do was from such to turn away and let the chips fall where they may.

It is impossible to take the man seriously, except for the seriousness of his crimes against the brethren and in the broader sense, humanity.

Anonymous said...

"I also objected to this, as I don’t understand how one could excommunicate people, brand them enemies of the church, and then allow then to attend services?"

Because it's not about God, or spreading a message to the world. It's about money and power.


Paul

Anonymous said...

" A man who had joined up with him in the early nineties stopped by WCG services while it was undergoing the new covenant crapology and made a pitch."

I would be interested to know if Gavin, our own dear blogmaster, agrees with Dougie on this. Do you, Gav? Do you think the new covenant is 'crapology'?

Lochinvar

Anonymous said...

"That a person would choose to go with Rod Meredith speaks world to what that person is like: Mostly harsh and judgmental, without much kindness.'

That's a little harsh and judgemental without much kindness...

Stan said...

The LCG is using ministerial evaluation forms on its youth. Meredith's Manpower Papers are utilized in today's LCG. Some people never change:

Therefore, please note that the original deadlines are no longer valid. If you or your son or daughter would like to attend camp, there is still time to apply for all three camps, but we urge you to apply ASAP, especially for the pre-teen camps in Texas and Missouri.

Note to Ministers (NOT to be read in services): We had a glitch in the LYC online registration system regarding the Ministerial Evaluations. If you tried to submit an evaluation and it failed, please try again. The system should now work. Also, please send in these evaluations ASAP, as it is important to let campers and staff know if they are accepted. Some will be flying to camp and airline fares can go up dramatically.—

Anonymous said...

Well ya can't blame LCG for wanting to know which kids are demon possessed or prone to such and which are not. sheesh....

Anonymous said...

I think it's a gas that Tom has finally had the courage to reveal himself as having been on the inside of the power structure in the ACOG movement.

While he probably imagines that some of us would now consider him to be Gamaliel, and wish to study at his feet, for all practical purposes he's now finished the self-demolition process, and has not one iota of credibility here.

BB

Anonymous said...

I can understand why Joel Olsteen is growing. He offers messages of hope. People leave encouraged not like they have been been beaten down.

BTW, Paul is right; It is about power, money, not about caring for God's people.

Douglas Becker said...

That's a little harsh and judgemental without much kindness...

Not really, particularly when TM has slandered and libeled people the same way that Roderick Meredith slandered and libeled people.

If you didn't know who was responsible for the comments here that TM made and the ones RM have made, particularly the Manpower Papers, could you really tell the difference.

But then sometimes the scoundrels hide out with the honorable anonymous.

Douglas Becker said...

I think it's a gas that Tom has finally had the courage to reveal himself as having been on the inside of the power structure in the ACOG movement.

But must admit that maybe we could have figured it out from his postings -- the same legalism, the same slander, the same arrogance, the same narcissism. On the other hand, we could have missed it because we've so much of it all around us that there was no particular defining distinction to distinguish him from any other cultmeister from which we should turn away.

Douglas Becker said...

The new covenant crapology was only applicable to the WCG as opposed to legitimate Christianity to which the WCG cannot even come close.

Gavin said...

Lochinvar

I wouldn't use the term "crapology." Not unless it's in the Consise Oxford. The underlying issues are important and, in my view, should be aired. But the particular emphasis that emerged in WCG was - my opinion again - reactive, unbalanced and perhaps ultimately irrelevant. Either end of the spectrum is a bit too monochrome for my tastes.

Old, New, Reconditioned or Pre-loved Covenants... Beware the one-stop, package deal, shrink-wrapped, mail order, faith in a box with preloaded platitudes (no refunds).

Anonymous said...

The problem with LCG is that members are leaving out the back door faster than they are coming in the front. I came across this sermon from Mario Hernandez, a member of the LCG council of elders, where he states that the council addressed this concern in their November 2006 meeting. Apparently more members left in 2006 than came in in 2006. And this was BEFORE the Bryce fiasco. Here is the sermon link. Check out the 9 minute mark.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/eacb1b3d-53f8-4a94-ab7a-5426c819514e/Mario-Hernandez---June-2-2007
If the link doesn't work, go to esnips.com and search for Mario Hernandez, June 2 2007.

Tom Mahon said...

Douglas Becker said:

>>>That a person would choose to go with Rod Meredith speaks world to what that person is like: Mostly harsh and judgmental, without much kindness.<<<

You're constrained by folly to arrive at certain predetermined opinions, however ill-conceived they are.

Anonymous said...

Stingerski said...
Anon said:

No, the 1st amendment was designed to protect the people from the church having the power of the state behind it to force people to obey the clergy . . .

So, do you agree then with the Federal govt. when they repeatedly violate the first amendment by prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

The federal govt. has not violated the fist amendment by prohibiting the free exercise of religion

"Little Susie can't pray in a public school classroom."

Yes, little Susie can pray in a public school, but, little Susie can't be forced to pray in a public school, there's a difference.

Tom Mahon said...

Byker Bob said:

>>>While he probably imagines that some of us would now consider him to be Gamaliel, and wish to study at his feet, for all practical purposes he's now finished the self-demolition process, and has not one iota of credibility here.<<<

Probably images? Such an absurd thought, suggests that you're completely shrouded in darkness.

I would never accept a person with the name "byker bob" as a student. The name describes a person who exhibits reckless impetuosity; prone to capricious actions and lacking in creative thought.

My students must be sober, diligent, motivated and possess the ability to think, logically.

Anonymous said...

From the Systematic and Didactic
Teachings of St. Thomas:

"My students must... possess the ability to think, logically."

Are you sure? This would appear to be
a highly counter-productive trait.

Corky said...

I would say that religion and logical thinking doesn't go together.

Anonymous said...

I would say that religion and logical thinking doesn't go together.

I would say that it dependeds on what religion we is talkings abouts.

Corky said...

Jordan Potter said...
I would say that religion and logical thinking doesn't go together.

"I would say that it dependeds on what religion we is talkings abouts."

I would say it doesn't matter. They are all like a cereal company:

They make fruit loops.


But, we is talking abouts Christendumb, the scourge of the planet for 2,000 years.

Anonymous said...

Just some corrections to the "Revisionist history" blog that itself attempts some revisionist history of its own:

Mr. Meredith did not take the mailing list. It was secure in the bowels of GCG's password-protected computer system to which he had no access. The "mailing list" he used on the first letter warning the brethren of the Board's actions, was a hodge-podge of lists cobbled together from local lists assembled by loyal members already aware of what the GCG Board(particularly Salyer and Pack) was up to--the list was a true grass-roots phenomenon. You are all too wet on that one.

The post-Meredith Global board gutted Global by not making the cutbacks necessary to match the organization's expenses to its income--they mismanaged themselves into financial oblivion.

The default on the loans was therefore unneccessary, as the organization had sufficient funds to pay its creditors and continue--but at a reduced size fitting the reduced income. Again, mismanagement by the Global board.

There is some attrition due to death (mostly old age) and a few that go off on their own or after Mr. Bryce. However, a number of those that go off with the likes of Bryce return--as some did who originally followed the Global Board and who for a time fellowshipped in UCG. Mr. Bryce and the other detractors have had negligible effect. The baptism figure is accurate; the LCG is, surely to your great chagrin, expanding its reach and growing.

To paraphrase a quote by Mark Twain, reports of Living's demise have been greatly exaggerated (mostly by you).

For the person commenting on the millions reached by LCG's telecast, those numbers derive from Nielsen Ratings (of course, what do the Nielsen people know, they are only the foremost experts in the field).

Revisionist history indeed...