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Sunday 22 November 2009

Mormon dissent and the Tkach sect

It is remarkable just how much prominence the WCG/GCI transformation has in dissident Mormon circles. Particularly among LDS with evangelical leanings, the changes under Tkach have been inspirational. Here's a recent example. Joe himself has been hauled out as exhibit A in Utah by his evangelical buddies, and the Called to be Free video - a hagiography of Joe & Co. - was produced by a post-Mormon group. The parallels between the two movements (LDS and old WCG) included the God Family and Lost Tribes teachings. If you run across a former LDS who thinks the WCG story is the best thing since sliced bread, do set them straight.

But all that glitters is not gold, and the WCG paradigm is probably not the one to emulate.

(The Called to be Free video is available to view in full online.)

33 comments:

PurpleHymnal said...

Harpoon away!

(Why yes I have been reading too much Chanology, why do you ask? Did you know the $cilos' therapy cult UFO leader died the same year Herbie did?)

Anonymous said...

While I understand and empathize with the pain people felt over how Tkach Sr made the changes, I still believe it was a positive move to walk away as much as the church did from the nonsense taught by Herbie.

Anonymous said...

My humble thought is that if Tkach and Co really want to be a light unto the world, openly publish WCG/CGI financial statements. Include in those financial statements the disposition of the sale proceeds of the various church/college properties and compensation packages, including the retirement policies about who actually received retirement compensation and the reasons why some didn't. I've searched the WCG/CGI Web site(s), and I can't find any minimal transparency that one might think would be second nature for an organization supposedly embracing real reform. WCG/CGI's site notes that they receive "audited" financials as reviewed by Capin Crouse (http://www.capincrouse.com/), but none can be seen evidently.
The WCG/GCI site also claims that they hold to "Generally Accepted Accounting Principles," which is all well and good, except that Enron and Worldcom/MCI made the same claims.
Until there's open disclosure and fiscal transparency, then there is real little difference between HWA/SRR and JWT (Sr/Jr) realms and the lot.
Until then, I humbly and respectfully submit to you, whether JWT Jr, Feazell et al draw open or faint praise from ex-Mormons, evangelicals or the Rastafarians, it's all rubbish.

        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

Must be God's time to unravel Mormonism just like he did Armstrongism. It just might be the recipe all those people need to get shed of the whole thing. It worked for us!

Anonymous said...

"God's time"???

Should be obvious to any that look at the evidence no God has been involved in any of these organizations from the beginning.

More like a bunch of people with narcissistic personality disorder at the top, Herbie certainly showed all the classic symptoms.

DNA Spoiled the Party said...

When DNA studies hit the book of Mormon's Never-frights and Jadded-ites, the proverbial shit will hit the fan showing the Book of Mormon to as phoney as can be. There was a time when every mound in America was from Israelites, until the truth over ran the insanity. Behold...the iceman commeth to the Book of Mormon. Just as my Dutch DNA never touched the Middle East choosing rather to make a trip from Eastern Africa through Iraq and Iran into Russia and hanging a left about 35,000 years ago into europe. No He-Brews in the strands. Well I guess I could have been conceived once or twice in the captivity...prolly not.

Anonymous said...

"I still believe it was a positive move to walk away"

I agree; I was one of the ones who walked away; now a happy atheist I have never looked back since!

Anonymous said...

"Must be God's time to unravel Mormonism just like he did Armstrongism. It just might be the recipe all those people need to get shed of the whole thing. It worked for us!"

What are you kidding me? 750 splinter groups later, and ex-members like us who will never ever get the kind of closure we actually deserve, but you think it worked for us??

Where is this planet you live on? I would love to visit sometime!!

BravoGCI said...

Bravo WCG/GCI! Although AW cynics may protest, the transformation is one that for all cult-like religious groups to emulate.

Anonymous said...

"Although AW cynics may protest, the transformation is one that for all cult-like religious groups to emulate."

I'm sure most cults would agree; the way GCI has managed to completely divorce itself from its past, whilst pandering in secret to god's remnant under persecution who still hold fast to the truth once delivered, is exactly the kind of 'worldwide' (pun intended) deception most cults would give their eye-teeth to achieve.

Anonymous said...

While most religious groups end up deluding and fleecing the flock, there are degrees. The CGI/WCG is still a screwed up organization, but it can't begin to compare to the mental, physical, and economic "holocaust" that Herb put the sheep through.


The Apostate Paul

Unknown said...

BravoGCI: I quite agree. Changing from one cult to another cult is quite an improvement. You can just feel the Christian love oozing from them... oh wait, that's preparation H.

Anonymous said...

Remarkable that what Tkach and Co. have done is appreciated so much more by those with an outside perspective.

Anonymous said...

Just to throw the puss among the pigeons,conventional archaeology says that The Windmill Hill people came to the British Isles from the East Mediterranean which probably means Turkey,around 2500 BCE.

The Greeks also came to the British Isles from the Mediterranean (Y-DNA Haplogroup I).
There is 15-20% of this Greek DNA in the British male DNA profile.This haplogroup applies to the Western Balkans in general which includes Albania,Thrace,Macedonia,Yugoslavia etc.The Dinaric mountain range is in the Balkans region and amongst the various racial types in the UK there is the Dinaric one.

And the Danes and Norwegians who invaded the UK had a fair old amount of I haplogroup in their systems.

The Lambda people claim co-sanguinity with the Jews,and DNA supports this to the tune of about 10%.

If you look carefully at the Male DNA of the Levant and aggregate the male genetic groups,likewise the female,separately,and compare them with their British counterparts,you will obtain some interesting results.The mt-DNA(female) is most interesting with the
H,U,and T haplogroups,or maybe the H,A and T groups effecting some sort of co-sanguinity with the Brits.

And you will get more than the 10% that the Lambda can claim.

After all,an organism,is the sum of its component parts.Thought I would stir the pot a little.
(Whilst there check the male and female DNA of Persia).

Cheers,

Jorgheinz

Corky said...

DNA Spoiled the Party said...
When DNA studies hit the book of Mormon's Never-frights and Jadded-ites, the proverbial shit will hit the fan showing the Book of Mormon to as phoney as can be.

Nope, sorry. The DNA studies did nothing. They still prefer to believe the BoM, surprised? I'm not.

The BoM has been proved to be a fraud in several different ways over the years. Did that make any difference? Nope. People believe what they want to and nothing like facts are ever going to change that.

Anonymous said...

"The CGI/WCG is still a screwed up organization, but it can't begin to compare to the mental, physical, and economic "holocaust" that Herb put the sheep through."

Haven't attended a GCI congregation lately have you Apostate Paul? The only ones onboard with the 'reformation' are the ones in California, because they close enough to feel the wrath of Joey if getting away from the party line. Other parts of the world are status quo.

Anonymous said...

I dunno. I just watched the entire movie, "Called to be Free," and knowing most of the people featured therein, it seems to me that they feel greatly inspired by their discoveries in mainstream Protestant Christianity. Most of them were always wonderful, and it seems that none of that has changed. I can't embrace their new convictions, but I'm not an hair's breadth less fond of them now, simply because we now see some things differently. I trust we're all still headed in the same general direction.

As for the turkeys among them, despite gobbling a rapturous new tune, my guess is that they're no less turkeys now than ever. (Sincere apologies to the more noble, feathered variety for using their name pejoratively.)

Leonardo said...

Corky wrote:
"Nope, sorry. The DNA studies did nothing. They still prefer to believe the BoM, surprised? I'm not."


Corky, that doesn't quite accurately characterize the Mormon view - it's a gross oversimplification based upon an uninformed subjective opinion on your part.

I was reading an interesting article by a respected Mormon scholar about the whole issue, and he was saying that while the current OLDER hierarchy of the Mormon leadership basically just wants to IGNORE the DNA evidence, which is powerfully disconfirming of certain of their teachings, the younger leadership is being FORCED to deal with it, simply because it is so overwhelming, compelling and has tremendous implication for their theology.

The Church of Latter Day Saints don’t need another embarrassing Galileo incident in the 21st century, such as the Catholic Church had to endure in the 17th.

Unlike the many anti-evolution fundamentalists who blog here, the up and coming Mormon leadership are smart enough to realize that when scientific findings disconfirm certain of their key historical teachings, just wishing it were otherwise will not prove to be an effective strategy in the long-term.

And though I may not agree with Mormon teaching, still, I cannot help but respect any religious group who is willing to admit to error and get in line with up-to-date scientific findings. They may not have done it yet OFFICIALLY, but once the older generation of leaders gradually dies off they will have to.

Tkach's $wiss Banker said...

The smiling Mormons are happy and good taxpayers.
Let's not pop their bubble. The simple masses crave an authoritative mythological creed that has all the answers.

Vaughn said...

Tkach's $wiss Banker said..."The simple masses crave an authoritative mythological creed that has all the answers."

I have to agree, there was a definite comfort in having all the answers and knowing the future and meeting with others who agreed with you. It is not so easy now, not knowing.

Leonardo said...

Tkach's $wiss Banker wrote:
"The simple masses crave an authoritative mythological creed that has all the answers."


The driving motive behind fundamentalistic religion can't be stated more plainly than that, my friends!

Same thing for SECULAR fundamentalism and irrationalities as well, creeds like communism, also a comprehensive philosophy that purports to explain all of reality, or a lot of the New Age mumbo-jumbo too.

It’s strange, and utterly incomprehensible to me now, that the vast majority of mankind prefers comforting falsehoods to hard realities – even though such falsehoods always, in the end, bring a delusional sense of security with them, and ultimately end up crashing and burning, causing great harm to believers.

Give me factual truths any day rather than warm and fuzzy lies – for we humans will NEVER win when we war against the objective facts of reality.

Vaughn wrote:
“It is not so easy now, not knowing.”


But I’ve found that, armed with an objective epistemology and a willingness to face the facts wherever they may lead, truth is considerably easier than trying to lug around the painful burden of a bunch of contradictory, faith-based falsehoods.

And when I observe the numerous mental and psychological burdens still weighing down my many friends and acquaintances STILL in the stranglehold of COG religion, I truly feel like telling them, “But there’s a much better, simpler and considerably more ACCURATE and fulfilling way to live” – I don’t, because they just aren’t ready for it…yet.

Anonymous said...

Concerning DNA disproving British Israel, there's a flaw somewhere. Either the Bible is lacking or Science hasn't gone far enough. Either the lost tribes exist, and bear DNA markers that haven't been noticed yet, or there are no lost tribes, and all Israel is, for the most part, among the Jews.

There is no doubt that a smattering from the northern kingdom did venture south, especially from Ephraim, Manasseh, Simeon and Levi. That much is in the Biblical record. But Josephus and others witness to a great horde, beyond Euphrates, who never returned en masse. DNA research has yet to find modern descendants of that group, so something is being overlooked. That much is simple logic.

British Israel has its problems, no doubt about it, but before writing off everything they've had to say, it might be the better part of wisdom to wait and see where the descendants of the northern kingdom actually went. For the record, Charles and Diana were convinced of their Davidic heritage, to which the British roal coat of arms witnesses, with its unicorn and rampant lion.

Those who insist that DNA research is presently well enough informed to pronounce final judgment about lost Israelite identities, I would say are quite obviously jumping the gun. They've got to be somewhere, like Joseph in Egypt, hiding openly in full sight.

Anonymous said...

Its pretty clear by most of the comments that not many of you have stepped foot in a WCG/CGI congregation for the past decade. If you had you'd realize that all the changes were not simply window dressing but the pastors/leaders have truly had a change of heart, mind and attitude.

I left almost 4 years ago as I felt called elsewhere but from my experience of the dozens of GCI churches I visited the past decade and pastors/leaders I knew/know, they are truly humble, genuine folk.

They don't see themselves as "special" or having the corner on "truth". They equate themselves with all the other churches in the Body of Christ.

Anonymous said...

"And though I may not agree with Mormon teaching, still, I cannot help but respect any religious group who is willing to admit to error and get in line with up-to-date scientific findings."

Which is why Mormons now allow Negros to be baptized.

        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

Anonymous said...

"God's time"???

Should be obvious to any that look at the evidence no God has been involved in any of these organizations from the beginning.

More like a bunch of people with narcissistic personality disorder at the top, Herbie certainly showed all the classic symptoms.




Exactly my point!

Mormonism is full of the same thing!

I agree that God had very little to do with the creation of these organizations.

I do think think He had a hand in dismantling them. Even the Tkach sect isn't exactly thriving.

Anonymous said...

"Its pretty clear by most of the comments that not many of you have stepped foot in a WCG/CGI congregation for the past decade. If you had you'd realize that all the changes were not simply window dressing but the pastors/leaders have truly had a change of heart, mind and attitude."

No it's clear YOU haven't stepped foot in a GCI congregation, at least not one outside of Joey's sphere of influence, or without your own "one true church" blinders on.

Ministerial counseling advised me it was A-OK to not believe in the trinity, to not believe the Holy Spirit is a person, and to keep the Sabbath and the dietary laws.

"Transformed by truth" you say? Not likely.

larry said...

Anon 11:37,

Hmmmm....,

Whoever advised you, advised you correctly. Those are matters of personal choice and are between you and God. Belief either way does not affect your salvation or the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Leonardo said...

Anonymous 11:07 wrote:
"Concerning DNA disproving British Israel, there's a flaw somewhere. Either the Bible is lacking or Science hasn't gone far enough."


Your own words have spoken the truth: "the Bible is lacking" – plus add to that the UNobjective and limited historical understanding of most promoters of British Islaelism, and we are coming close to a full answer here.


Anonymous also wrote:
"Charles and Diana were convinced of their Davidic heritage, to which the British ro[y]al coat of arms witnesses, with its unicorn and rampant lion."


Not exactly the best way to justify a belief, Anon! Because Charles and Lady Di believed something, therefore it’s true?

And so THAT'S the origin of the species of unicorn I frequently refer to! - except that mine is invisible, rainbow colored, lives underneath my bed, and talks to me!!

Anonymous said...

"Ministerial counseling advised me it was A-OK to not believe in the trinity, to not believe the Holy Spirit is a person, and to keep the Sabbath and the dietary laws."

Larry said:

"Whoever advised you, advised you correctly".

Anon 11:37 here. Yes that is my point! The minister advised me correctly. Yet still the church leadership claims publicly on the Internet and the YouTube and in worldly books that the members no longer believe these undoctrinal teachings!

Where does it not add up?

larry said...

How does anyone know what anyone believes? I'll bet you don't even know what YOU believe! What matters is what God knows you believe. As for the Church leadership statement, it reflects the official beliefs of the Church, not necessarily each individual member's opinion.

Does everyone in the Catholic Church believe that the Pope is infallible? I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:37 back again (Am I committing the sin of gluttony for punishment? Maybe.)

Larry said:

"Does everyone in the Catholic Church believe that the Pope is infallible?"

Of course they do! That is one of the main tenets of the idolatrous Catholic religion.

Larry said:

"How does anyone know what anyone believes?"

If the body of the Church is in unity then everyone believes the same thing. The problem is Church leadership is not honest to the true beliefs of members. They pander to the Christians falsely so-called but tell members we can hold fast to the faith once delivered.

What is the Church leadership's motives for doing this? Maybe it is all about money as the atheists here suggests. Maybe it always has been.

But instead are they protecting the chosen elect of God from persecution, for us to continue to hold fast to the faith once delivered without worldly interference? They do not send this message clearly enough if true. Is it meant for God to show us this message instead? Is that why the difference between the leaders and the Bride of Christ?

(I am just speculating I do not know if this is truth.)

Larry said:
"I'll bet you don't even know what YOU believe!"

THEN Larry said:
"What matters is what God knows you believe."

These two statements contradict each other. Can you please explain exactly what you mean? But was it only a cheap shot?

Larry said:
"As for the Church leadership statement, it reflects the official beliefs of the Church, not necessarily each individual member's opinion."

What use is it to be a member of the Church that you do not hold the beliefs of???? Unless the "Official" beliefs of the Church are only to please the pagans and the true beliefs still endure all things!

But why the dishonesty if truth? We are to be scoffed at and laughed at and persecuted. Why would Church leadership prevent the Bride of Christ from enduring these blessings to build character in itself by lying to stop the persecution of God's Church by the world?

The Church was marked as God's chosen people by the persecution we endured. Lying to stop the persecution does that end God's promises to His people and the covenant the leaders of His Church have broken?

But do they only preach pagan teachings and idolatry so that the Bride of Christ may have peace to prepare itself for the Kingdom?

Why do they not give clarity to members in this?

larry said...

Anon 11:37, this is simple and you are trying to make it complicated. Don't do that.

And, most assuredly, not all Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope! They don't throw away their membership in the CC over the issue though! Many molehills are just that, molehills. There is no need to make them into mountains.

As for unity, there can be unity of purpose without complete agreement on everything. Try putting 100 doctors or farmers in the same room and see how much they agree upon. There will still be a few things on which there will be 100% agreement, but that is about it.

They won't go to war over the minor things though.

Anonymous said...

I should do more holy things on the Sabbath then read here. I should pray for strength. I do not pray much at all in these days.

"They won't go to war over the minor things though."

But! according to Church leadership it is NOT NOT NOT NOT "minor things". The truths once delivered are undoctrinal, wrong, unChristian, and so and so and so.
So Church leadership
tell the evangelical leaders "the minor things" the Church rejected are NOT "minor things"! But how much of that is saying what is wanted to be said?

I am not making it complicated! It is simple.

There is disconnect between the leaders of the Church say what the Church is and between the body of what the Church does.

It is simple! Not complicated.