Wednesday 10 January 2007

Meanwhile back in Holy Mother Church

A couple of items in the Nov/Dec issue of Together (the downsized WN) caught the sharp eyes of AW readers.

Ron Kelly, despite retirement, is the Big Enchilada (Group Tour Coordinator) for this year's Festival Cruises and Tours - the un-FOT aFlOaT. Pray for calm seas brethren, though for a truly Biblical experience wouldn't a reenactment of Acts 27:41 be fun!

And AW's most famous correspondent from pre-blog days, DP, notes that WCG has lost its "last founding member," Mrs Bobby Fisher. "Mr. Armstrong baptized Bobby while she was in her early teens, and she often spent time with the Armstrongs in their Eugene home. She said it was her responsibility to help spreading sawdust on the floor at the front of each meeting room or tent so people responding to the altar call would have a place to kneel. She said that in the early years, Mr. Armstrong would never preach without giving people a chance to come forward and make a commitment."

Yup, ol' Brother Herb dragged 'em up the sawdust trail in the early days. Somebody tell Gerry.


Richard said...

The Old Testament has a couple of references to things along the lines of altar calls. I've noticed that going through the UCG Bible Reading Program -- but the B.R.P. comments never seem to bring it up.

camfinch said...

It's probably a strange concept for those in the COG's who aren't familiar with HWA's early evangelistic years, but indeed, back then, Herbert utilized revivalistic drama to bring folks up to the anxious bench at the sawdust trail to get them converted. Most of us who came aboard decades later, hearing ministers disparage altar-call Christianity, would have found HWA's altar-call evangelism anathema, except that we had read the Autobiograpy, and therefore were aware of his "evolution" toward the "truth".

Anonymous said...

in the early years, Mr. Armstrong would never preach without giving people a chance to come forward and make a commitment.

Make a commitment to who? Herbert W. Armstrong?

Anonymous said...

So... how many different Herbert Armstrongs were there?

And which one was genuine?

Anonymous said...

As there were/are two Elijahs,which in itself is controversial,we could perhaps even have two HWAs.

Of course,in HWA we have the DUALITY,as he also claimed to be Elijah.

Who would/could be the second HWA is a matter of great conjecture.

As 'ole Herb used to say,we have type and ante-type in the Bible, two fulfillments.

Perhaps one of the two witlesses could be both HWA and Elijah.

A Nonny Mouse

Anonymous said...

>>>Make a commitment to who? Herbert W. Armstrong?<<<

All of us advanced
Herbert W. Armstrong's narcissism. We fattened his wallet so that he would be converted to that “Rolly Polly Apostle” while we, the members, played the role of “starve'n Marvin!”

Anonymous said...

Got any extra money laying around? Join a cog, you won't have it long.

Short on cash? Join a cog and learn about food coupons and other gubmint help so you can pay those tithes and free-will offerings.

Free time on your hands? Join a cog and get relieved of it.

No free time in your life? Well, join a cog and lose your job and that should cure that right up.

Got a lot of friends? Join a cog and not be bothered with all that anymore.

Don't have any friends? Join a cog and not care about that anymore.

Happy? Join a cog and get all that happy nonsense out of your life.

Unhappy? Join a cog and lie to yourself - you will be . . . absorbed.

Anonymous said...


In your most recent survey, the largest single group are those who joined the WCG in their twenties. It would be interesting to know how many of this group are still keeping the Saturday Sabbath and refraining from eating foods forbidden by the Old Testament. Likewise, of those who were born into the church or raised in it from childhood, how many observe those things?

Anonymous said...

What a bunch of poppycock or fishtwaddle to even bring this subject up. Even if HWA DID do this in the early years, and I would want some substantive proofs to believe this, give HWA a chance to grow. None of those who came out of the lies that Satan's world has brainwashed us into came into the truth in an instant.

All of you with this judgmental mindset, need to repent deeply of your presumptousness, and hatred of government, and wake up before the tribulation sets in.

Your friend,

Anonymous said...

I guess to give HWA a chance to grow as you stated, would be an outstanding prospect if it were not for his method and teachings.
He would have everyone believe one thing and say it is from God , having the Holy Spirit working with him and all, and then after he would state that if what he had said did not come to pass, you would know him as a false prophet. Since by his own words he condemns himself in so very many areas, how then could he be a true servant of God? Especially since he lied about saying or writing them in the first place. On top of that an example other than that of his setting dates would be where in the March 1948 Plain truth in the lead article "The Plain Truth About Divorce and Remarriage", which has HWA stating on page one about this subject of divorce and remarriage :"Do you know where GOD places the blame for this colossal national sin? The Eternal places it squarely on the PREACHERS' who have neglected telling the nation GOD'S TRUTH!
Listen to God's stinging indictment of the self-professing ministers!In this article we propose to give you the plain WORD OF GOD, straight from the shoulder, hoping and praying you will not become angry at the truth." Page 2 continues "Those who take offence will be offended at GOD, and HIS WORD,because these laws are not ours, but GOD'S!" He goes on on page 2 to say this: "GOD denies man any authority whatsoever to DIVORCE what HE has joined for life. What GOD has joined together for this natural life, he commands, 'let not man put asunder'. All who are party to this 'putting assunder'by divorce...ministers who remarry them to another, ALL are guilty of disobeying the express command." HWA goes on to say only what GOD says about the marriage laws are to be. On this same page 2, HWA states "When any person, holding such a 'divorce,' marries and lives with another, THE WHOLE PROCEDURE IS WITHOUT AUTHORITY FROM GOD-and such a person is NOT in fact or in God's sight married to this second husband or wife, but instead is merely LIVING IN ADULTERY with this second person!
And any professing minister of Jesus Christ who performs such a ceremony involving such a divorced person is himself DOUBLY GUILTY, and will be so held in the final judgement! Yes, the MAIN REASON for so much of this legally licensed (by man) ADULTERY in our land is the SILENCE of the ministers concerning the TRUTH- their actual upholding and condoning of this SIN,their participation in it!".
On page 4 he indeed uses Matthew 5:31-32, and Matthew 19:3-9 to back up his doctine here.
Now the point here is that HWA even uses the "hypocritical Pharasees" reasoning to shore this up.
Now "R", i ask if you believe these quotes from HWA?
Then if you answer "YES", i would ask you if you believe they had been changed over the years? By HWA himself? Now did he indeed "grow up spiritually" or "grow into knowledge" with the changes he made in the 1970's?
Or did he backslide into "watering down the PLAIN TRUTH" he professed all those years prior?
On top of that do you think some of COG's (lcg in particular) even remotely abide by this? (LCG members- ask your minister or HQ what constitutes D&R today and then compare with the bible or even what was changed in the 70's).
HWA condemned himself and GTA did as well in marrying HWA with a scriptually null and void divorced woman named Ramona,and by his own words in this PT article .
Now this is just one example of HWA's very adament teachings. Some were right on biblically, much not, but for a man, telling us all that he was God's only true representative on this earth, the only true church and he had these things directly revealed to him by God and God's Holy Spirit through the scriptures, then if there was no "new truth", how was it this issue plus so many others could be changed? That would not be growth but backsliding.
So "R", please read the writings that were so very adament and tell me where from what you read in them, how any "growth" could have been attained, and if so, how could HWA had been so wrong if God was really working with him? After all God IS NOT the Author of confusion!
jim hamby

Anonymous said...

No television in those days....
it was boring during the depression...
I remember seeing a precision briefcase drill team during the DooDah parade in Pasadena and thinking WCG men going to church in Pasadena was the inspiration for this.

Anonymous said...

I've noticed Billy Graham's old crusades are making it back on the tube.

Anonymous said...

A coincidence...Bobby Fisher is also the famous chess player who hung out with some of the big cheeses in Pasadena.

Anonymous said...

Well some might not think HWA and WCG got into this stuff but if you look at the January 1952 Good News magazine you will find comments about them going to the Pasadena Music Hall on December 16th 1951 and watching the "Messiah" Christmas Pageant. There is a comment from the writer of this article gushing over the "Nativity" scene.
Another interesting part of this same Good News was that Dr. Hoeh stated "One in God's office can't afford to make any mistakes". He goes on to say if you do while in God's office "That is why you have to suffer the consequensces of ignorance!"
Says a lot for all early and latter armstronism and you just don't why they did not keep some of it up, after all they said it, and they would be the first to deny it.
jim hamby