Thursday, 4 January 2007
In case you missed it, the LCG has blooded a new face and voice on its Tomorrow's World telecast, a younger frontman to complement the aging duo of Meredith and Ames, both now of pensionable vintage.
The new man of the moment is Wally Smith, a Missouri pastor now elevated to the tele-Troika. Mind you, he's still a junior member of the team, officially billed on his first outing (America on the Brink) as "guest presenter." Presumably that leaves room for Rod to dump the "rookie" (as he calls himself on his blog) if he doesn't scrub up to the Presiding Evangelist's satisfaction. Was it a good sign that WGN pulled his first program due to "strong comments"?
So, is Wally the shining new hope? You can view his appearance before the cameras on the LCG website and judge for yourself. My own view: nice suit, interesting hand movements, too bad about the script.
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From his blog, at least Wally Smith is honest enough to admit he sees room to improve.
I can think of some ministers across the Church of God spectrum who could use a dose of humility, along those lines.
What WGN did has sparked a lively discussion on a TV news message board I visit often. If word of the "vetoed telecast" gets around, will other religious programs pull their shows in protest? Does this set a bad example of censorship, in a country which makes a big deal about free speech?
a big deal about free speech
Forget free speech. As those of us who have had our websites taken down and pursued by bogus allegations to Australian Government Offices by a Church of God cult leader, it should be clear there is no freedom of speech. The only "freedom of speech" is that for which you fight, pay good money and defend -- often alone with no one to help you as you are assaulted.
"Freedom of speech" becomes more and more an artifact of curiosity to be discussed and bantered about by those who don't care and don't have any skin in the game. It becomes abstracted fodder for discussion of people's opinions on blogs as some sort of curious entertainment.
Fools only listen to what they want to hear, and they that have political clout will shut up those who say things they don't like.
As for Wally Smith's blog, it is itself a curious artifact which one would think would be anathema to the official positioning of the Churches of God, particularly Living, but then, there is Dr. Robert Thiel who spouts deceptions under the guise of truth.
Beyond that, Wally Smith. Wally Smith. This is not a name which inspires the sort of imagery one would expect from a spit-off seeking an audience used to the hyperbole of now long deceased prophetic ministerial posturings.
whoa - bad idea1
Dougie Becker writes about Wallace Smith's blog:
"it is itself a curious artifact which one would think would be anathema to the official positioning of the Churches of God, particularly Living"
Dougie, could you please point us to a stated official position of LCG which leads you to think the blog would be anathema?
Wally Smith is the last great hope of a dying church. He is the only one with courage. The only one that is a good speaker with interesting things to say. The LCG leadership acts out of fear, not faith. Why were they so quick to fire Charles Bryce and his daughter? Probably out of paranoia that the mailing list would get pilfered. Are they really that insecure? They fired Larry Solomon and did not make one announcement of any kind to the church. Why? They were afraid that it would make them look bad. Last year, they deliberately hid the fact that Charles Bryce was no longer on the council of elders? Why? They were afraid of what the people would think. Previously, they deliberately hid the fact that one of the biggest evangelists of the modern era had come to work for LCG. Why? Because it would make Raymond McNair's alleged "repentance" look like a negotiated settlement. I could go on with more examples, but the fact is, the LCG leadership is acting out of fear, and God does not give us a spirit of fear. If they are doing the right thing before God, why the need to be deceitful? Why are they paranoid? Where is the faith? Where is the leadership?
Instead consider Shame.
Hey, there are enough WALLIES around without another.
Remember RANDY(Randall)DICK,ex minister,whatever now, of WWCOG; a most unfortunate choice of names,especially when voiced in the Antipodes.
We wish Walter well in his new spot,hoping he may be able to inject some life into a tired old message.
Wally is better looking than Rod and Richard.
Anonymous write LCG leadership is acting out of fear, and God does not give us a spirit of fear. If they are doing the right thing before God, why the need to be deceitful? Why are they paranoid? Where is the faith? Where is the leadership? This I totally agree with. What is more sad is the members in LCG are asleep. They have been convinced that as long as the church is doing the work, the lying and deceit doesn't matter. They don't realize their church supported an individuals for working on the sabbath.
Too bad they didn't pick one of their pastor's in Florida. He has a GQ wanna be look and a slapped on smile that would go better on the reading from the teleprompter.
Jorgheinz, Wally is short in this case for Wallace, not Walter. Wasn't the last leader of the Reorganized Mormons also a Wallace Smith from Missouri (direct descendant of Joe the Prophet)? Yes, I thought so!
Could the new Wally be some kind of relative?
An anonymous individual bravely proclaimed that LCG leadership was "acting out of fear" because, in his opinion, certain things were not made public.
Anonymous, those things WERE announced to those who needed to know. Just because a piece of paper did not cross your desk does not mean that the information was fearfully hidden.
It never ceases to amaze me that people in forums like this demand from the church they hate a level of disclosure which would be expected of no other public or private corporation.
You may be surprised to learn that sometimes information is not wildly blathered because of respect or courtesy to those involved.
BTW Anonymous, is that anonymity we see you cowering behind? I guess that indicates that fear, the emotion you ascribe others, is actually governing your own behaviour.
to kinnear: Are you kidding or do you really believe they don't hide things? I didn't know that Mr. Bryce wasn't still on the council of elders until about two months ago. Since that time I heard from a person that did work at headquarters about what transpired. When Mr. Bryce left members were told that Mr. Bryce had been asking time after time to go back into the field especially to TX. Now we are informed by headquarters that it was entirely different. Which time was headquarters telling the truth? I, too, am going to sign this anonymous. It's not that I am in any real fear. It causes less hassle this way. By the way, I am not the same person as the other anonymous.
I don't believe that fear or deceptiveness are the issues. It's a bit more sinister. Arrogance would be the key operative word describing LCG's modus operandi. Senior management is going to do whatever they please, they see themselves as God's personal emissaries, and if somebody doesn't happen to like that, they're "rebelling against God".
Same as in old-school WCG. They probably even see accountability as being Satan's way.
Shirley spoke thus:
Wally is better looking than Rod and Richard.
And he loves to blog!
Looks like LCG has finally arrived in the 21st century.
One (UCG) vote for Wally. =)
Anonymous, here is how Mr Meredith announced Mr Bryce's original transfer. It is done with repect and courtesy towards Mr Bryce and it is the truth.
"I want to announce the transfer of Mr. Charles Bryce from Charlotte to become Regional Pastor over the Southern region of the Living Church of God. Mr. Bryce has considered this option for some time and has written me twice in the last several months suggesting this as a possibility...There is a crucial need for a capable, caring minister to fill this role."
Mr Meredith did not want to publicly humiliate Mr Bryce and tried to edify him.
Circumstances have changed. It is now necessary to add more details. These were not necessary in the past. To release them then would have greatly harmed Mr Bryce's abilty to serve in Texas. Both accounts are true.
God works in the same way. He does not tell us everything all at once.
Please do not get upset because you were not made privy to information you did not need to know.
I can only repeat that the information you complain about not knowing WAS MADE AVAILABLE to those who needed to know. Nothing more is necessary than that.
While I do applaud you signing your name (I really don't like the fact that people will post things without signing their names to it), however I have to disagree with you regarding the intentions regarding what those in the ivory tower at headquarters decide what the laity has the 'need to know'. Don't hand me that Corporate transparency argument either. Have you heard of Sarbanes-Oxley? Public Corporations have a right to keep their intellectual property and strategies secret, however, incomes, incentive plans, hiring, transfers, and firing of corporate officers and members of the board are required to be released to the public. This includes income, profit, and loss. LCG may not be on the NYSE, however, the members are the source of income and should be considered 'shareholders' and therefore have a right to know everything that goes on. How pious and condescending of you to suggest that the members don't have a need to know that a man at the level of Charles Bryce was canned. Are not the pastors and above supposed to be the servants of the flock? Or is it the other way around...Back to Herbie's old 'Dumb Sheep' routine. These aren't the old days anymore...Not only do they have every right to know, they want to know, and the information is out there now, it becomes harder every day for the hacks at headquarters to keep people in the dark and covered in manure.
Well said, Charlie Kieran, well said.
I wish Sarbanes-Oxley could be extended to non-profits with income greater than, say, $1M. Fraud and deceit isn't limited to for-profit organizations.
Solution: Each congregation demands and gets full accountability.
If it is not forthcoming, they go elsewhere or take over and run things themselves.
Apparently, that's what the Apostle Paul had in mind for church administration. Or so it would seem.
WCG had a great policy of openness. You just had to know the code. "Yes we will," or "Yes are," meant "no we won't and no we are not." "No we won't," or "No we aren't," meant "Yes we will," and "Yes we are."
Also, "That's not what happened," or "That is not true," meant "that's exactly what happened," and "yep, it's true."
You just needed to know the code. That code is still in place and it's a simple openness that has worked for decades. To get a code, you had to ask many questions over years and decifer it appropriately. Sorry to say, many have yet to pick up on the code :)
Dennis, so much for "let your yeah be yeah and your nay be nay".
You are saying that the leadership and ministry of the churches of God are liars.
Now in the venue of Information Technology, I have discovered that once someone begins to lie deliberately [and does physical damage to the brain as a result], the logic goes: The person choosing to lie becomes illogical and cannot effectively follow sound reasoning.
The latest example of this was an impressive psychopath who got the County to buy a new multimillion dollar security system and left us quite in a mess with no plans, no project and no funding. Everything was going fine and he had the ear of even the County Executive [how does that happen? -- a low level functionary getting in on the highest level?] until he did not know that his Internet access was being monitored. It was found that he was a pornicator and he was let go.
I draw the parallel between what actually happens in the real workplace and the artificial environment of the churches of God. Dennis, what you say is both true and crazy. There should be no expectation that such people actually understand morals, ethics or could -- if there is a God -- understand a God of light and truth. I would conclude logically, that such people would be untrustworthy [even if you understand the 'code', which is craziness in itself] and they would become nuttier and nuttier, particularly if they wielded some sort of power over others.
And all you have to do is look at the various churches of God and seen the crazy bizarre nuttiness of the venue, based on 'codes' -- better known as lies.
It becomes completely illogical -- a fact free environment.
As for our friend Wally, he's fallen in with a bad crowd. If he does not escape, sooner or later, he will lose his sanity. Count on it. I've seen this happen over and over and over again. Although, on second thought, if he strives to turn from evil, he makes himself a prey and if he stubbornly persists in being a goodly person, he will be ejected because the wolves cannot tolerate such a godly person.
I have been reading mostly negative comments from different people on this site for quite awhile now, and it seems to me that you anti coggers are having more of a problem with the way LCG does things than most of the members do: why is that? LCG is not a corporation that has to answer to any of you, and is not subject to your scrutiny and suggestions as to what is to be done, regardless of what some of you may think. For all practical purposes LCG is a private entity and since you are not a part of it, it is none of your business what LCG does. Why are you so concerned about LCG anyway? most of you left the church years ago and now you seem to be miserable and seem to be trying to make everyone else miserable along with you. Why don't you get a life and leave us alone? We're not doing anything to you! We are not DUMB SHEEPLE as one of your cronies likes to call us.We know what we are doing, and we know that some things done in the past were not exactly kosher, that's not anything new, we all know, but we are trying to move past that, why can't you? That's what repentance and forgiveness is all about in case you have forgotten. Remember the majority of us made up our minds on where we wanted to be years ago, and your lies and supposedly enlightening truths about HWA and RCM are not going to change that! You boldly sit in judgment of LCG leaders (and others) for what you say are wrongs that have been, and are being done, and what they should or should not do. there are two sides to everything that happens, and your spying stool pigeon(s?) probably does not know everything either! The majority of you certainly don't know all that happens at LCG HQ. but just like satan, you take any gossipy, negative morsel that comes your way, twist it around and make it sound as bad as you possibly can, and smear it as far a you can get it to smear, belittling those with whom you disagree because you, just like satan, seem to live to stir up trouble and put people down. Even Michael the archangel would not accuse satan, but said "the LORD rebuke you". Though you seem to think differently it certainly is not YOUR perogitive to hand down judgements on anyone. Let me remind you what your creator tells you,
MATTHEW 7: (Bible in basic english)
1 Be not judges of others, and you will not be judged.
2 For as you have been judging, so you will be judged, and with your measure will it be measured to you.
3 And why do you take note of the grain of dust in your brother's eye, but take no note of the bit of wood which is in your eye?
4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me take out the grain of dust from your eye, when you yourself have a bit of wood in your eye?
5 You false one, first take out the bit of wood from your eye, then will you see clearly to take out the grain of dust from your brother's eye. Think on that for a while!!!
Y'know, it's funny -- if you take the above comment and do this:
REPLACE WITH: "WCG"
... one wonders if the pot isn't calling the kettle black. For example:
[WCG] is not a corporation that has to answer to any of you, and is not subject to your scrutiny and suggestions as to what is to be done, regardless of what some of you may think. For all practical purposes [WCG] is a private entity and since you are not a part of it, it is none of your business what [WCG] does. Why are you so concerned about [WCG] anyway? most of you left the church years ago...
... You boldly sit in judgment of [WCG] leaders (and others) for what you say are wrongs that have been, and are being done, and what they should or should not do. there are two sides to everything that happens...
Think on that for a while!!!
Thank you for that second-to-last comment of support for LCG.
I had commented on what I thought was the very appropriate and gentlemanly way Mr Meredith handled the original transfer of Mr Bryce to Texas. Overnight I realised that the I am on a different wavelength to most of these "antis".
You see, if my boss came and said "You haven't worked out in this present position. You have frankly messed up in several areas and caused considerable offence. So we are going to quietly transfer you to a job you have said you wouldn't mind and we are going to do it quietly. We won't publicise the whole mess you have created."
My response would be, "OK, thank you. Sorry I stuffed up.I appreciate the way you're handling this".
But Charlie and libro and rest of the "antis" would shout, "No way, I want everyone to know the reason. I want it publicised. I demand transparency. I know it will ruin my chances of settling-in to the new job with fresh colleagues but everyone has a right to know everything about this situation."
Yeah, right! (as the Tui chorus would chant)
Anonymous wrote, "Why are you so concerned about LCG anyway? most of you left the church years ago and now you seem to be miserable and seem to be trying to make everyone else miserable along with you. Why don't you get a life and leave us alone? We're not doing anything to you! We are not DUMB SHEEPLE as one of your cronies likes to call us.We know what we are doing..."
Anonymous, first of all, most of us "anti-coggers" on this forum are not, I believe, "miserable". If fact, many or most of us feel an immense lightness of being after time spent under the thought-control of the Armstrongist regime. Some of us may still be angry at having allowed ourselves to be subtly and cleverly drawn into the spider's web of such thought-control, but then again, many of us have gotten "past" that anger, but feel a need to support those still trapped within. Some of us are non-religious now, some have moved to other forms of Christianity, some to non-Christian religious perspectives, etc. We are varied in approach, but on one thing we agree: the freedom of an independent mind.
You said that those in the Armstrongist fold (specifically, I suppose, you are referring to members of Living COG) are not "dumb sheeple". And while I think all of us are too easily duped into erroneous thinking without enough critical analysis on our part, nevertheless I must submit to you respectfully that Armstrongists too often ARE dumbly led (using the word "dumb" to refer to submitting without any argument, any comment--just submitting and believing). Those of us on this forum have been-there-done-that, and after the often agonizing process of freeing ourselves from mental-spiritual control, and from the blind assumption that what certain leaders or ministers say is sui generis truth, we clearly see how many of those still in the fold simply believe and accept, which includes accepting the claims by their ministers of godly "authority". This far too often means that the individual memeber does not choose to allow doubts to surface; they must be repressed, or at least put off to the side so that "God can handle it".
It may be that you are not one of the "dumb sheeple", that you are one of the exceptions, although your tone and your words convey otherwise. You say that we seem to be bent on making your lives miserable. If you are secure in your belief and practice, how can we make your lives miserable? Does the misery come from our getting too uncomfortably close to facts that you need to repress or deny? This is for you to carefully think about for yourself.
Many of us see the great spritiual harm that ensues from mind-control religion as demonstrated by authoritarian Armstrongism. We have seen that harm in ourselves, but we get beyond that. Where we DO find continued misery sometimes, is when we have loved ones still sufferning (though they don't realize that they are suffering) within that regime. Those are the ones we wish we could help, but they can really only help themselves. You might not accept any of that, but I would then ask that you give positive and loving counsel to an old woman who, after a long, long life of moral living and service to others, including decades within the "true church" (that true church now being defined by Rod Meredith's organization), still is concerned that she might not "make it" into the kingdom. This is a woman whose life has been a shining example to hundreds of people who have known her, whose own lives she has served to brighten. But still she worries. And she worries about those of her children who did not stay within the fold, fearing for their salvation.
Such a religion, that provokes such worry and angst, has very little good to be said about it. It seems to be mostly a religion of spiritual sewerage. I'm sorry that it has to be so plainly spoken, but there you are. The old woman mentioned above is my mother, and it is difficult to see her living out her last years with such needless concerns. While I personally do not subscribe to Christian theology, I do wish that Armstrongists would start emphasizing the freedom of grace rather than the burden of law (and which laws? only those, apparently, that the church chooses to accept as needful to obey), and of the worry of uncertainty that the Armstrongist works theology produces.
TWIST IT LIBRO, TWIST IT!!! LIKE I SAID, IF YOURE NOT PART IF IT, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS...JUST AS IT'S NONE OF MINE AS TO WHAT YOU DO...WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?
That was perfect.
Kinnear - This is a perfect example of what I mean. If Charles Bryce caused such a mess where he was, why should headquarters be able to move him somewhere else to wreak havoc on unsuspecting congregants?!?!? Was the Catholic church right to shuffle pedophiles around without the parents of the altar boys soon to be molested having been made aware of the priests past or reason for the transfer? What is more important; the church members or the corporation they send their tithes to? I have serious trouble with the practice of moving a person who caused a mess in one place, into another job they'd rather have. That shows a lack of concern for the people they are supposedly serving and smacks of the 'Old Boy Network' in full effect.
To Anonymous that likes to use Herbie's CAPS METHOD OF TYPING: HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU OR OTHERS THAT LEFT THE WCG FOR LCG, PCG, RCG, UCG, AD NAUSEUM, SAID TO YOURSELVES JUST PRIOR TO LEAVING AND SHORTLY AFTER YOU LEFT, "IF ONLY I HAD KNOWN."
God bless you all.
No Doug, I was not inferring that the ministers were liars. That's painting with too broad a brush in my experience at the practical level. When I think of ministers, I think of the guys who actually did the church work, not those in high places. I found most average ministers very believing, honest, encouraging and hopeful. I was speaking specifically of, Joseph Tkach Sr. and Jr. Those boys could spin a tale! The leadership, falsely so called as we used to say...hey we still say it!
I realize you truly believe in what you are saying, Kinnear. However, I think you're missing something important here:
You see, if my boss came and said "You haven't worked out in this present position. You have frankly messed up in several areas and caused considerable offence. So we are going to quietly transfer you to a job you have said you wouldn't mind and we are going to do it quietly. We won't publicise the whole mess you have created."
My response would be, "OK, thank you. Sorry I stuffed up.I appreciate the way you're handling this".
You know what? My response would be the same. But my boss is a university department head. Your boss is Dibar Apartian, with Doug Winnail and Rod Meredith above him. There's supposed to be a difference between the two.
My boss is supposed to be savvy to the ways of the world. After all, he works in a worldly system. It's his job to do the politically astute thing. He has the unenviable task of having to balance all of the pressures from above, below, sideways, and to remember that the guy he reprimands today may be his boss ten years from now.
But the church of God is not to follow the world's strategies. When a minister is ravening the sheep, Rod Meredith is not supposed to tell him, to modify your words, "You have frankly messed up in several areas. You have caused considerable offence by doing things that are contrary to the way Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church, said they should be done -- things that are just plain wrong. But instead of quietly letting you go, we are going to quietly transfer you. Quietly."
Yet this is the way things are usually done in the Churches of God. It's not just LCG -- it happens in UCG too, because that's the way it was done in WCG under Herbert W. Armstrong.
Do you see what I'm trying to say, Mr. Penman? LCG makes a big deal about how its government is not based on voting, and that much is true. But voting or no, your own comment reveals how even you feel it is right to play politics within the Living Church of God. And that is something Jesus said should not be.
Why do you think the church should act like the world, Kinnear?
PS -- Charlie posted his comment while this one was being composed. That's why some of the thought is similar.
Yet another "Anonymous" wrote (in caps-lock so we couldn't miss it): "IF YOURE NOT PART IF IT, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS."
A lot of us - while never in LCG itself (or RCG etc) WERE deeply involved in the WCG or other groups. Like it or not, there's a sense of "extended family" about the COGs. That's encouraged by the use of names (like "Tomorrow's World", "The Good News" etc) that set out to create a feeling of continuity with the past. The fact that non-LCG people take that seriously shows just how effective the strategy is. LCG can't have it both ways - tell other people to butt out while claiming to be the legitimate inheritor of their history and identity.
And that's not even mentioning the thorny issue of family and friends who have moved to one of the splinters.
On a lighter note, I wonder if Kinnear's "Tui chorus" comment went right over the heads of most folk. Tui is a Kiwi beer with a high-profile billboard campaign. Example. :-)
Thank you, NB, for pointing out the actual prenomen, in full.But as you have hinted, Wally can stand for Wallace or Walter.
I am interested in the identity of correspondent, "Kinnear"...would he have an association with the German infinitive, "schreiben", "to write" ?( Ex-schoolteacher and health inspector).
Gavin, you have done well.
The "opposition" have surreptitious viewings of your blog and once in a while come out of the woodwork.Keep up the good work.
Living will be interested to know that some of what they preach is sanctioned by certain elements in the French catholic church and elsewhere,too.
That sit for now.
Wally Smith is a Missouri-based pastor.
Funnily enough, my great-grandfather was a Missouri based pastor more decades ago than I care to remember. He, unfortunately,decided to take up the family occupation,that of preacher,probably 30 by count at this stage.
The question is "Can anything good come out of Missouri?"
Only time will tell.
Scripture commands believers to mark those who cause divisions.
Roderick Meredith is one who has caused divisions. He is to be marked. It is our business. The LCG sets a terrible example, making everyone look bad. RCM has proved himself to be a false prophet, a liar and a covenant breaker.
Finally, I tire of LCG members talking to me when they drop in on a church I happen to be visiting and start complaining about how terrible the conditions are over at LCG. Live with it or bag it!
WOW! Yep, all caps there.
I must say that those LCG folks writing here lately have just stirred up quite a hornets nest .
If you LCG folks don't like what you read here, then DON'T.
I mean if you all start going to your pastors with this, all kinds of ramnifications could occur.
Like RCM mandating that you "Smart Sheeple" (those who read this and the XCG site)and the "Dumb Sheeple"(those who are clueless and would not know about this site), never ever go to these sites again. Of course if any go against RCM (except Dr. Bob of course) they would be fall under the dreaded almighty church government banner and be spewed out from LCG . This is the way of the COG's. Make sure NO ONE ever talks to the banished that has the truth about the organization.
So the one who stated that "IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF IT, THEN IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS"- RIGHT BACK AT YOU. I must ask you why do you even bother with this blog or others since you are not "part" of the x-cogers?
Go back to your "Dr. Bob" official LCG site and feed on his web page that can usually be easily proved wrong? That way you can become a "dump sheeple" again.
As long as i have relatives i care about still in these type of organizations, i will continue to share with those on this blog, the "Plain Truth". You have the right to come here on this blog and say what you want, but in LCG ,neither you nor i have the same option. You will be silenced at every turn, if you even dare to point anything out (even in a humble manner) that is blatantly wrong.
Take the guy on XCG yesterday that pointed out Richard Ames quoting a non existant Plain Truth from April 1952 proclaiming HWA a true prophet of God. LCG has know for years it does not exist and a friend of mine was banished by LCG for just bringing up humbly the facts to them. He even approached LCG with an oversight about the written booklet on the net showing Christ was ressurected on a Sunday. LCG did not take kindly to this even though it was humbly stated that "in light of the shooting in Wisconsin, and all the media attention to the LCG web site,that LCG correct errors so not to give the media any ammunition to use against them".
LCG said they would be happy to correct any mistakes (what a croc!), but it took over 4 months to change the Sunday resurrection fiasco. The others have remained unchanged (and they are many that were brought to their attention)one such as referenced in the new January-February 2007 Tommorow's World magazine (page 10). See if anyone with access can find an "April 1952 Plain Truth" ?
After all RCM asks everyone over and over to "check him out", (Note that this includes non members who hear RCM say this on the Telecast) So everyone is a part of it and it is our business, all from the lips of RCM himself.
Y'know, it's funny -- if you take the above comment and do this:
REPLACE WITH: "WCG"
... one wonders if the pot isn't calling the kettle black. For example:
REPLACE WITH: "New Life Church in Colorado Springs"
Ted Arthur Haggard (born June 27, 1956) is an American evangelical preacher. Known as Pastor Ted to the congregations he has served, he is the founder and former pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado; a founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches; and was leader of the
National Association of Evangelicals from 2003 until November 2006
In November 2006, he variously resigned or was removed from all of his leadership positions after allegations of homosexual sex and drug abuse were made by Mike Jones, a former male prostitute. Haggard acknowledged some, but not all, of the allegations.
Mr. Smith's first telecast shows promise for his future. He is obviously very intelligent and articulate.
One of the "anonymi" (is that even a word?) wrote "...Sarbanes-Oxley? Public Corporations have a right to keep their intellectual property and strategies secret, however, incomes, incentive plans, hiring, transfers, and firing of corporate officers and members of the board are required to be released to the public. This includes income, profit, and loss. LCG may not be on the NYSE, however, the members are the source of income and should be considered 'shareholders' and therefore have a right to know everything that goes on. How pious and condescending of you to suggest that the members don't have a need to know that a man at the level of Charles Bryce was canned..."
Well, for what it's worth, LCG voluntarily publishes its audited financials--though not required to. LCG church members are not shareholders, as LCG is a nonprofit and therefore does not have "shareholders". You seem to be merging the concepts of 1) a publicly-held for-profit corporation and 2) a congregational church. LCG is neither. Essentially, LCG is a hierarchal church operating in this society as a privately-held nonprofit corporation (no shareholders). Its governance is from the top-down, not the bottom-up (if you don't like that form of government, then go your way; but you are not going to change the kind of church government that I and other LCG members believe in). LCG is under no obligation to disclose the firing of corporate officers or members of the board to the public (which is what you "antis" are) or to those attending its services. Also, just because a man does not work out in a higher-pressure position (like Director of Church Admin), does not mean that he did not do well--and would do well once again--in a lower-pressure postion, such as, oh, let's see, Regional Pastor! There is another aspect here. If Mr. Meredith and Mr.Bryce experienced difficulty working together (different strokes for different folks--it happens), isn't that between them? Yes, it is--and it is none of your business. It is also none of my business and I could have gone my entire life, quite happily, without knowing. Did either of the two men make mistakes, probably (I make mistakes--do you? Oh, sorry, forgot, all you antis are perfect). Are you qualified to be their Judge as to who was right or wrong, or what the right move was--absolutely not. By the way, if Mr. Meredith had gone public right away with how upset Mr. Bryce was, you antis would have then accused him of hanging the man out to dry, breaking "confidentiality", "airingdirty laundry" or some other nonsense.
Mr. Penman: you and I are both probably wasting our time here.
"Nothing is easier than fault finding - No talent, no self-denial, no brains, no character are required to set up in the grumbling business." - Robert West
I now join the ranks of the anonymi.
Just a reminder folks, let's keep it polite. Disagreeing is fine, but personal invective is another matter. If people are posting here it's a great chance to engage them in dialogue rather than just yelling at them. Several members of LCG have posted lately, and it's great to see both sides of the issue being aired openly (hey, where else does that happen?)
For the LCG folk out there, i would like to comment on the fact that RCM and Bryce both came forth with letters they put on the net, so it seems to me that they are indeed open to scrutiny.
Also i might add that even though
that the fact of the matter is that one of Meredith's letters to members about Charles Bryce still is a lie. No matter what kind of "spin" you put on it.
That is why such a can of worms has been opened up. It has come from RCM himself. Even Bob Thiel has commented on this .
Hey -- whaddaya mean "can anything good come out of Missouri?"
My grandmother was born in Missouri. (No, I'm not kidding.)
But then, she DID come out of it -- and lived most of her final years in Colorado.
Well an anonymous poster called me out for being anonymous...wrong again. I always post my name with what I write and I stand behind it.
And I'll say it again, in your quote "Hierarchal" structure, you are telling me and everyone who reads these posts, that those who are "under" a person have no right to know about their "leader's" shortcomings (it can only be a man in the xcgs).
Gavin - Anyway to get rid of anonymous posts?
Why can't we all just get along?
Unfortunately, we mostly know the answer and some don't want to face it.
The venue is really tough to explain to the unitiated, or was, until the Sunni and the Shi'ites.
The xCGs, with few exceptions, do not portray love, joy and peace, particularly to one another, although some just passively ignore the other CoGs.
And frankly, it's an embarrassment being associated with most of them in most cases -- with the warring factions and all....
Mr. Kinnear, are you saying it is OK for LCG to deliberately hide the membership of its council of elders? Is it OK to fire a minister (Larry Solomon) and make no mention of it to the membership? If this an acceptable behavior in LCG then I will have to seriously consider remaining a member.
Just GREAT! Now when I wake the kids in order to tune into the church sideshow at 3:00 AM, I can say to them, were going to
I can remember getting similar treatment (in my CGI days) from the Canadian station when we spoke too plainly concerning abortion,homosexuality or muslims (or anything else considered "intolerant")
it's coming here, or, maybe it's already here.
Last year, they deliberately hid the fact that Charles Bryce was no longer on the council of elders?
Last summer, LCG sent every member household a Ministerial Photo Album. In that album, there was a page showing the Council of Elders members. Mr. Bryce was not on that page. Mr. Bryce was listed only in the main body of the album, as a regional pastor.
Mr. Hull was still on the COE back then, and was so listed in the album.
If LCG was "deliberately hiding" Mr. Bryce's departure from the COE, they sure chose an odd and very public way of "hiding" it, where everyone could see it.
The truth is that LCG's Ministerial Photo Album proves that those who accuse LCG of hiding Mr. Bryce's departure from the COE are at best ignorant, or at worst unconcerned with the facts.
Rick (of three posts ago),
if you would like to contact me privately I think I might be able to assist.
Rick (of three posts ago),
if you would like to contact me privately I think I might be able to assist."
Don't do it Rick! Asking questions will get you canned...believe me, I know first hand!!
"When Mr. Bryce left members were told that Mr. Bryce had been asking time after time to go back into the field especially to TX. Now we are informed by headquarters that it was entirely different. Which time was headquarters telling the truth?"
Good question! And when I asked during the GCG/LCG split why RCM was not being truthful about the troubles at HQ my troubles began!
Don't ask...don't tell is their policy.
Wait a minute. Why is it that everyone who says anything uncomplimentary about LCG is lumped together under the label of "anti-COG"?
When Bob Thiel says uncomplimentary things about UCG, is he being an "anti"? How about a UCG member talking about LCG? An LCG member talking about LCG?
Don't paint us all with the same brush. Believe it or not, I actually like some of the things Meredith's been saying lately.
I especially applaud his recent emphasis on the fact that the Gospel includes the death, burial, and resurrection of our Savior. Why, just this week, he sent to the entire ministry a copy of a letter written by Herbert W Armstrong himself, dated just after Richard David's death. In it, Armstrong says:
We do not seem to stress sufficiently CHRIST as SAVIOUR--faith in Him, and then HIS faith in us (living faith which is inseparable from obedience).... Instead of speaking of being CONVERTED--CHANGED--by real repentence, surrender, FAITH in CHRIST, and receiving God's Holy Spirit, we speak of "coming into the TRUTH."...
Let's not leave CHRIST and GRACE out of our speech and letters.
So, as Meredith says, Armstrong himself felt at times that the gospel as preached by Radio COG and Worldwide was not properly balanced. I'm glad Meredith is seeing the need to bring some balance back.
However, I have reservations about the way he's doing it:
Why is it so important that HWA back up what Meredith's trying to do? If it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible. Blow the dust off that book, and quit trying to find HWA quotes that seem to say what you want him to say.
The fact that Armstrong said these things from time to time is undeniable. But the fact that he didn't follow through is also undeniable. Did The World Tomorrow start to spend more time on faith in Jesus Christ as Savior? No -- except at Passover time, the subject continued to be an afterthought right up to HWA's death. The closest we got to what HWA was talking about in that letter was when GTA was the principle speaker on the telecast -- and we all know how well that went over.
Look. When SDA scholar Samuele Bacchiochi was challenged to prove the Holy Days wrong, he came to the conclusion that it is right to celebrate them. However, in order to justify his new position, he felt he had to scrounge through Ellen G. White's writings for quotes that could be read as backing him up. The actions of Meredith and the LCG leadership make it look to their critics like they're doing the same.
Like I said, just give us the scriptures. Prove it out of the Bible. Why should LCG feel like they have to prove it out of HWA's writings?
"Why is it so important that HWA back up what Meredith's trying to do? If it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible. Blow the dust off that book, and quit trying to find HWA quotes that seem to say what you want him to say."
AMEN, AND AMEN!
The LCG and most other COG's must uphold HWA's writings as pretty near scripture so as not to lose membership.
When the so called Apostacy in WCG happened, one can only look at the confusion of the membership, when so many ministers and members thought you had to stay in WCG because of HWA's government said to.
Of course it took awhile for some to come up with terminology they did to justify leaving and God forbid - START their own church!
And to keep the splinters members in check, the government issue keeps popping up. That way LCG and others can try to keep the sheep in their fold.
Despite what some feel, the truth is that most Ministers in the cog's since Tkach's Apostacy, did not leave for quite a while. Whether it was the government issue or a "paycheck", it still is suspect since we were all told to "stand up for the truth". Now we are supposed to follow these guys, and blindly i might add, because they are the only true church on the face of the earth and we must follow their governance blindly.
So reverting back to HWA's writings are going to be the norm as long as "that" generation of hardline believers still are around.
I remember asking my local pastor about the change of government that HWA wrote about in the 70's and it was so different from when he first started out. The answer was to keep people from leaving when 1975 and Prophecy did not pan out, plus divorce and re-marriage and Pentecost changes.
Since the computer age and the WCG literature being available so "anyone" can have access to the archives, people tend to see through some of the B.S. about HWA never setting dates, his never being a part of COG7 etc.
Now they can actually see for themselves and make a judgement call. Many are starting to see the "real truth". Thus questions arise and then all these COG's have to quelch it all by going back to "government". All one has to do is see how many times the subject is brought up to see what i am writing here.
Now on going to the bible instead of HWA- NOW you're talking, but so many are entrenched in HWA, they may never see more than the "proof texting" they are brainwashed by. Just look at the "Mystery of Ages" book. When one can really go into that book and see the error, then maybe that person will come out of the error of Armstrongism. However then again, so very many are just so twitterpated by it as being par with the scripture, they may never see the light.
That is what is so sad.
By doing bible study the Armstrong way will have you "quoting out of context,
Making a part of a scripture say what they want it to, and "here a little;there a little" approach will make you miss the "big picture".
Because of the proven method of getting the "benjamin's" out of the flock, this using HWA's writings will always be on par with the scriptures in the minds of Cog leadership.
At least Meredith does not write a couple of letters a month browbeating the faithful for money like HWA did.
Chose your idol carefully.
The man you choose to put between yourself and God The Father, will be with you until death -- either yours or his and given Meredith's health, probably his.
When death comes for your idol as it always does, you will have to choose another idol. This is very inconvenient. Who do you set up on the pedestal? Someone, no doubt, who can prove he is an idol worthy of your devotion who pretends to have had Herbert Armstrong as his idol. This is the easiest choice and the safest. He was the original idol of the churches of God, one for whom all the others are inadequate substitutes.
Do be certain to throw out the Scriptures for your ultimate idol, for you find in them no help at all. In fact, the Bible is replete with passages advising you not to choose an idol or even, heaven forbid, to put your trust in princes, which, in the CoGs, is not possible because none of them have been royalty, except perhaps, Roderick Meredith whose laurels rest on his winning the regional Golden Gloves championship. He truly was a "man of quality" Herbert Armstrong was demanding, particularly back in 1963 when he just couldn't find one who was the "wise of this world" to stand with him to enslave... er... lead the People of God into Perdition... er... the Kingdom. This was illogical, of course, because such a "man of quality" would be too successful to join with a loser like Herbert Armstrong.
There is no shortage of idols these days. Those who, in the words of a widow visiting United, want "The Best Prophecy", then Living is the only real choice, since Roderick Meredith has been giving God's Church "Prophecy" -- which incidently is stubbornly not coming to pass -- since at least the Sixties, wherein he accurately predicted the events surrounding the culmination of wonders to come before 1975, such as the flood, famines and ultimate demise of the power of the United States. Let us all be thankful for those prophecies, for if he had not made them, they might have actually come to pass.
For confidence -- as in "confidence game" -- both David Pack and Gerald Flurry are really good choices for setting up your idol. Actually, Philadelphia is a better choice, since there is already the Son to take over after daddy is gone. Too bad about Jesus Christ in the flesh today, eating and especially drinking, going his way, but you have a ready made idol to stand between you and God waiting -- this time officially -- in the wings.
Don't count out Wade Cox either. For someone supremely confident about his heresies... er... doctrines and the future to come, he is a most excellent choice to give your substance to and bow down before him. Be sure that you get quality. Herbert Armstrong always advised to get the best you can for what you can afford. Scratch that. I'm not certain you can afford idolatry.
For more information on how to select your idol, should something happen to the one which you already worship, be sure to consult Narcissistic
Source for pointers about how to go about the process objectively.
Brethren, I do not know what this fuss is about on Living, although I can understand the Ezekiel warning to the church and world. If some one wants an organization from the top down then let them have it after all God does allow us to choose. However, let us be honesty you just simply have to look at the government booklet that Global put out to recruit membership and look at the government booklet that Living put out for implementation. Same author (RCM) very different style of government. Unfortunately neither one had God’s mercy seat intact. I ask how long can an organization built on a false foundation stand? It is just a matter of time before it will collapse or implode upon itself. I am just a commoner that wants God and His love not man’s religion.
I am glad LCG had the wisdom and foresight to cut off access to its member database from Bryce's family. If the luminaries in the Tkach administration had been more astute, then they would have cut off Flurry's relative's access (she worked in CAD as I recall), so she could not have stolen the WCG membership list and given it to good ol' Gerald to inflict his missives on the rest of us. Good going LCG!
To anonymous about 9 posts ago: great point on the photo album--if the contra-LCG folks had known about that, maybe they could have twisted an accusation out of Bryce not being shown as a council member; too late for that now ;-).
Of course, LCG did announce the termination of Solomon (and Bryce) to the entire membership through "The World Ahead" (once called the "Update") and a member letter, as soon as the matter was finalized. So the accusation that our leadership "hid" their termination from us is also false.
As an LCG member, I have no problem with trying to preserve Mr. Bryce's reputation, by only disclosing his repeated request to return to the field, in order to give him a real chance to succeed as a regional pastor. Aren't we as Christians supposed to be in the mercy business? Oh, sorry, forgot that those of us in LCG have already been judged as merciless by the contrary ones--so there must have been another motiviation; anything but mercy and concern for giving the man a fair shot at success in a new post. Anything but that.
I have heard that a lot of people have stopped sending in tithes to Living especially after the situation in Birmingham Al about working on the Sabbath and the way Mr. Grace and his wife were treated. Does anyone know how the finances are? I have heard that income is way down. I am not just being nosey. I am a member.
I've lost track of which anonymous is commenting on which anonymous and the anonymous responses to that which is anonymous. What's with all the gutless can't be me stuff? At least pick a phony name to differentiate which annonymous is speaking anonymously.
Signed...Dennis Carlton Diehl
oh I forgot...son of Fred and Cora, Dad to Jeff and Chris, LMT SC Lic. # 1889 SCMassageTherapy.com SOZ no one mixes me up for anyone else..
I have heard that a lot of people have stopped sending in tithes to Living......Does anyone know how the finances are? I have heard that income is way down. I am not just being nosey. I am a member.
Anonymous, this excerpt was published in the weekly World Ahead of 28th December, 2006.
"As we come to the end of the calendar year, we are busily tying up loose ends and settling accounts so that we can close the books on 2006. Income has been good. Through Thursday, December 28, our annual increase compared to 2005 is 8.2 percent. While the final number may fluctuate a bit, it should be close to that amount."
I hope you will go back to your misinforming source and let them know the facts.
Oh!, Now are we to believe what comes out from Living in printed form?
This from an organization that is so incompentent, that they cannot even quote secular sources correctly in their writings. Why don't you take the time and go back the last five years in LCG literature and dig out the inaccuracies yourself and don't forget the hypocracy when one letter says something and other does not.
Also what might be good is to watch the videos of RCM and then check the accuracy of his statements he said. Some one please point out when he ever got the counting of the wavesheaf correct, since 1973. Confusion has reigned supreme out in Meredith land for a long time and i ask "Who is the author of confusion?"
Also the income IS DOWN.
You don't think that Syd Hull and Charles Bryce and others did not take any tithe payers with them, do you? Bryce is now taking tithes with his "Enduring Church of God" already.
LCG has lied in the past when they told about the Owino situation in Africa. It does not take too much to dig that one out.
All one has to do is read the conflicting written reports to see this.
Therefore just because LCG says and writes one thing, it does not make it true. Their track record on the "truth" issue is bad.
Take the newest "Tomorrows World" and check the reference of a NON EXISTANT Plain Truth cited as a proof of HWA being a "True Prophet of God".Another poster had referenced this earlier and i checked it out. And guess what Kinnear, LCG Headquarters says the PT does indeed exist and that it is just hard to come by . BUT if you look at the Volume numbers and year numbers on the preceding 1952 PT's, it does not. Now i thought just maybe one did exist and they did not have the money to put it out that year, and Ames, RCM, Ogwyn and Winnail were just quoting that issue. But that was not the case. I have in my possession the "proof". I do know where the quote came from. They just were not honest- period.
If you will go to the last 5 plus years of the LCG magazine, and look how many articles were written to exhort the readers to do their best in scholarship, writing, referencing etc. , you may start to see them for what they are.In other words they are not very credible.
This is just the tip of the iceberg as to their incompetence.
I have all kinds of research to back this up.
And i am not afraid to sign my name.
when LCG publishes its audited accounts (as it always does) we will be able to see the accuracy of the excerpt I quoted.
This will stand in sharp contrast to your "..the income IS DOWN"
The source of the info was someone very dear and close to RCM. Do you want to call that person a liar? They also work at headquarters.
People in this area can get put out for posting information. That's a good reason to be anonymous.
I received a phone call from someone who has never been wrong yet out there at LCG HQ. He says it is indeed down. Like you say, let's wait and see. But do you have figures of a vast increase in the last two months of tithe payers or donors coming in to replace the Hull, Soloman and Bryce departures? My source says no.
Also take into fact that December has ALWAYS been a lean month in income. This goes back to the olden days of WCG and is still,according if you can believe LCG,and the figures reflected in the report you cite do not figure in the recent shift in income, so i am told.
Do you think maybe what Anonomous was speaking of might just be true by this measurement?
In relation to my last "anon 2" post, i received a call from my source that explains that the income statement quoted from "Kinnear" was for i quote"Financial Year 2006" that does not reflect much since September. The finacial year runs different than the January to December that most would think of and thus the income since the FOT has indeed been down , especially since all the departures. The figures Anonomous states about income being down won't show up for over a year again in the audit report, as it was already part of 2007 .
I hope that clears things up for Kinnear.
LCG's last published, audited accounts state the position at Year Ended Dec 31, 2005. These can be seen in LCNews July-Aug 2006. LCG's financial year runs Jan - Dec.
The brief excerpt I quoted from the weekly newsletter was for 2006's income from January 1 until 28th December, 2006 and showed an increase of 8.2% over the previous year.
Any reasonable person will see that we are comparing apples with apples in spite of the negative spin the anonymous antis and their anonymous sources love to put on things.
I won't comment again until 2006's audited accounts are published. This thread is going nowhere.
Hmmn!,Very interesting as Spanky's last membership letter stated that all donation postmarked before December 31, 2006 ,even though received in 2007 would be accredited to 2006 records. Does that mean, Kinnear ,that Rod has a crystal ball and knew how much was going to be in the coffers and on December 28, 2006, he could make that 8.2 percent increase info available then. My!, them accountants out at LCG are awesome. And to think how long it took those guys to count the Holy Day offering during the FOT.
Can someone with accounting knowledge help here with the discrepancies in these posts?
In reference to the new "Tommorows World" magazine article on page 3, where Richard Ames quotes a non existant "April 1952" Plain Truth, there is also an interesting link praising Herbert Armstrong as a "true" prophet of God on page 4 citing the "December 1956 Plain Truth page 3". For all you Armstrongists, i will point out what was in the article not mentioned by Ames; First the article in the December 1956 Plain Truth is titled "Foretold 22 Years Ago". Now Ames quotes the article with out the first part that stated that "communist oppression in Eastern Europe is being overthown." The article means at the time 1956. The article goes on to say how you will know a false prophet of God from the "true" prophet of God. It goes on to say Herb was a True one because what he said came to pass. Now what is extremely interesting is a reference on the same page in the same article about a "June-July 1934 Plain Truth", from whence the title of the article comes from (Foretold 22 Years Ago). So i went to this 1934 PT and behold a most interesting PT indeed. Herbert sets dates for the end time very explicitly in more than one place in 1936. Gives the day of the month even. Now i know the world did not come to an end and in light of what he wrote 22 years later about the false Prophet and all. I wonder when he says in the December 1956 PT "who understands what the prophets foretold? Why , only the ministers today whose word comes to pass!-those who are appointed and guided by God to preach the truth! Those whose utterances do NOT come to pass have not spoken the prophecies truly." The article goes on stating how exactly the prophecies he foretold are coming to pass. Now he even quotes the PT where he set dates. I can only conclude a major con job was thrust upon us all .
By the way the other PT quoted here was "Hitler is not dead " This being many years after he was dead. The reason given was that Hitler had to be alive to fulfil prophecy. Dr. Hoeh apparantly got this info by roaming around back alleys in London. Go figure.
So now i think i see why LCG's RCM, Ames, Ogwyn and Winnail quote non existant works whenever possible, so not as to have someone stumble onto the real truth. You almost have to know they read some of the works that do exist that they quote out of context, because they always leave out the "truth".
I am new at this here, but i will sign my name.
I welcome any response disproving me on this.
Regarding the "non-existent" PT issue, the answer is simple for anyone who actually looks at an archive of old issues.
It's a typo. or a careless misattribution. Not a lie of world-shaking magnitude, simply a mistake.
The article cited "Plain Truth" when it should have written "Good News." There is an April 1952 Good News magazine with the material incorrectly attributed to the "nonexistent" April 1952 PT.
The source of the info was someone very dear and close to RCM. Do you want to call that person a liar? They also work at headquarters.
Do you think Meredith knows how much information his family members and top ministers are sharing? Is he really as disabled as some people are saying?
A couple Sabbaths ago one of his top HQ ministers told a friend of mine to "be patient" about the problems at HQ. He said Meredith is now feeble and has to be handled very carefully, because he fears doing anything that will upset his wife or children. This HQ minister said they were "working things out" at HQ and even Meredith's own instability was on the agenda to be addressed eventually.
This came from one of Meredith's oldest supporters. If this is how his supporters are talking to friends in private, what must his enemies be saying?
I did know that the 1952 Plain Truth quote was from the "Good News" that year. I knew that when i went to LCG a few years ago with the problem. But they LIED about it as being a real issue of April 1952 PT.. On top of that i was sent the "proof". It was a newsletter from some guy who accurately predicted the 1989 stock market near collapse, that quoted this non existant PT. Now it was also quoted as a "August 1952 PT", in the December 1956 PT. I knew this going in, but when i had brought up the 1930's issue of the PT where HWA set dates, i was told it was not a real PT, but put out there by enemies. But then i took them to the 1980,s issue of the PT or GN, where the title of the article was about HWA's 50 years in the work, and there was a picture of this same PT shown in that issue with his old typewriter and memeograph machine.
I then could only believe that if LCG was correct, then HWA lied in that 1980's article . But i did have the PT from the 30's on setting dates verified finally.LCG would not be honest in this or any of the other issues i brought up. The late Richard Nickles came to my defense by writing a letter to LCG stating where the confusion was and taking them to task over the same issues i had plus the fact that RCM could not seem to quote (Nickles) accurately on all the occasions RCM wrote about his church history books.
Again HWA always said until the end that he never set dates, RCM in his video's has said on many occasions that they never set dates, came close ,but never did.
Now that is deception, especially when these guys have read and quoted the last several years from these sources of old PT's. It was pointed out this as well. Much to no satisfaction, as they just continue to deceive. What is "earth shattering?" should be that HWA condemns himself as a false prophet in the pages of the PT's LCG quotes. But of course Hoeh said after the 1975 in Prophecy debaucle ,that HWA was no prophet. Saying that was supposed to end the matter? WOW!
HWA blamed the "Science and technology Leaders" for making the statements in the "1975 in Prophecy" about Martyrs lying in the street of America. Yeh! I believe that one, that science leaders would say that.Sure!. Actually HWA forgot that he had written what the "Science and technology" leaders had said in the early 60's. Nothing remotely close to his version. Still we were to follow this false prophet and liar, because he said he was the "true servant".
Amazing how the Armstrongists put a spin on this stuff.
It set me on a journey to find what else was Fabricated over the years. You might be astounded to see the amount that was. Now this was a church that said they would correct error when brought to their attention. That is just not true. And by the way it may not be a "magnitude of world shaking proportions" but does make one wonder why over the years these lies were continued to be made, especially after being aware to them. It is more than just sloppy scholorship. I went to LCG HQ via three sources to get info on the same questions, only to get three different versions back. I was amazed and asked my local pastor if he had been in contact with one of my sources since he moved to Charlotte? He said no, and i was just astounded that they did not even collaborate on these issues. That does explain why i received three totally different responses for the same questions. I might add that there were many questions answered this way, not just an isolated one.
"Of course, LCG did announce the termination of Solomon (and Bryce) to the entire membership through "The World Ahead" (once called the "Update") and a member letter, as soon as the matter was finalized. So the accusation that our leadership "hid" their termination from us is also false."
Not true. You can search all the weekly updates and the December 8 member letter and find nary a mention of Larry Solomon. Further, between July/Aug 2005 when Bryce left the council of elders and the release of the photo album in June 2006 there was absolutely no announcement of Bryce not being on the COE. Further, even then there was no announcement. Imagine my surprise when I looked at the photo and said, "Where's Mr. Bryce? What happened? How come they didn't announce it?"
The previous poster is obviously bent on spreading false information.
LCG did announce the terminations. First regarding the leader of the newly-forming group in The World Ahead 12/7/06 (Bryce), then, once the second man's intentions became clear, in The World Ahead 12/21/06 (Solomon). We members were told so that we would know that these men were no longer with us in Living, and so we could understand the teachings they were separating from us over. I judged for myself and am staying with Living.
As far as why Mr. Bryce not remaining on the Council was not announced, that has been asked and answered--the previous poster just does not like the answer: That the situation was being handled in such a way as to give the man the best possible shot at success in his new responsibilities. Just because "inquiring minds want to know" (from that rag, the Enquirer), does not mean our leaders have a duty to put some people's natural curiosity ahead of exercising mercy and love toward someone who they want to give a real chance to. We should remember, "love covers..."
The accusation that our leadership hid the departure/termination of Bryce and Solomon is plainly false. Those who persist in spreading such false accusations have an agenda.
I stand corrected. I apologize for my sloppiness. The December 21 weekly update states "We are also making plans to fill the vacancies left by the departure of Mr. Bryce and Mr. Solomon." That is the entirety of notice that Larry Solomon is gone. I wonder... did he resign? Why? I guess its not for me to know.
As to Bryce not being on the COE, apparently it is HQ's position that members don't need to know who is on the COE. Hmm, a secret Council of Elders.
An agenda? Yes, to have a leadership in LCG we can respect rather than be ashamed of. Mr. Meredith would have much more loyalty and respect if he just honestly and humbly commented on public situaitons. How about a summer 2005 announcement like this: "Mr. Bryce and Mr. Meredith are having difficulty working together in church administration and, as a result, Mr. Bryce will be returning to his role as a regional pastor, where he will be most effective in using his talents to serve God's people. Please note that Mr. Meredith fully supports Mr. Bryce in his new role, and Mr. Bryce is fully loyal to LCG. Mr. Bryce will also not be on the council of elders for the time being. Please pray for all concerned during this transition."
You err again friend. LCG published a Ministerial Photo Album last summer. There was a page showing the photos and names of your so-called "secret" Council of Elders members, and Mr. Bryce was not on that page. Mr. Bryce was listed as a regional pastor in the main part of that photo album. Mr. Hull was still a member of the Council at that point, and was therefore shown among the other Council members. If our leadership was "hiding" Mr. Bryce's departure from the Council, they apparenlty chose to "hide" it where we would all see it. Get real.
The publication to our member households of the names and pictures of the whole Council of Elders in the Ministerial Photo Album proves that your accusation of a "secret" Council of Elders is totally false.
Those who accuse our leadership of hiding Mr. Bryce's departure, or having a "secret" Council of Elders are just not being truthful and are trying to mislead the rest of us. It won't work.
The "whys" of Bryce's and Solomon's departure were explained in the 12/7/2006 "The World Ahead" and the 12/14/2006 "The World Ahead" (which you were previously refered to).
If any of us were in the leading role, we would have somewhat different ways of handling various issues. You might handle it the way you stated. I would not. The course of quietly working with the man and giving him a good start--rather than sending him out there "under a cloud", spawning questions and phone calls to his house about why they could not get along (if that was even the case) and closing the door on any future opportunity to work at HQ (which your method would seem to assure), does not seem like a good idea to me. Mr. Meredith's method certainly seems merciful.
Thankfully, neither of us is in the hot seat where these decisions actually have to be made.
An anonymous poster said, "As far as why Mr. Bryce not remaining on the Council was not announced, that has been asked and answered--the previous poster just does not like the answer: That the situation was being handled in such a way as to give the man the best possible shot at success in his new responsibilities. Just because "inquiring minds want to know" (from that rag, the Enquirer), does not mean our leaders have a duty to put some people's natural curiosity ahead of exercising mercy and love toward someone who they want to give a real chance to. We should remember, "love covers...""
The point several on this blog have been trying to make is: Do the needs of the members not outweigh the needs of Meredith and Bryce? The really obvious part here is that Bryce was being thrown a bone in hopes he wouldn't defect, which he did anyway, however, the COE or Meredith himself was perfectly willing to drop Bryce (A disenchanted or disgruntled employee of LCG at this point) on an unsuspecting region, out of 'love' for Bryce...What about 'love' for the members? It would appear the the membership is nothing but a group of people that needs their information carefully screened, controlled, and then used for their tithes. What they want to 'inquire' about is inconsequential. Installing a regional pastor who would truly have the needs of the congregations he would serve at heart was not important.
It would also appear that there is some disagreement among the LCG members on the transparency of headquarters with regard to who is on the COE and when and where someone got canned or transferred.
Someone needs to examine the current priorities against scripture and make some changes.
can anyone tell me if Mr. League is still on the council of elders. I have heard something about him not being on it now. That is news to me. If he isn't, what could be the reason for him not being on the council.
I REALLY MUST know where I can find these ancient PT, GN articles (hopefully online) to check up on your statements, well actually HWA's statements, and all the way back up thru time to the 2007 TW article from LCG, my current namesake. I dont really WANT to know, but I NEED to, that's all. I know you understand.
If you want to know if Bob League is still on their COE, then ask him yourself.
You can find these online , not edited , actual photo copies of the magazines including every page plus the cover, (so you can know they are not fake), at http://herbertarmstrong.org/
It may take a while to load, but it is there. If you use AOL, you may want to bypass them and go to Internet Explorer and download it faster.
I will have to unpack my boxes to get to the hard copies i have, but when i do i will point you to the %0 years in the work in the 80's where HWA had a picture of that one PT in it.
Hope this helps.
Another site with all of herbs works, is http://www.coghomeschool.org/site/cog_archives/plain_truth/cog_library_plain_truth.htm
This will get you those PT's plus more thru the site.
To Jim Hamby, thank you. now to just go thru all of it.
To Rod 2, I copied and pasted and it said "the page cannot be found". hmmm. You arent quoting that TW article about the non-existant 1952 PT, are you?
Anyhow Jim Hamby gave a site that worked.
"I wonder what I would find if I go to herbertwarmstrong.com?" I said. Boy was I shocked a year ago or so. A very different "PT".
I think i may have placed the "underlines" wrong for the coghomeschool site.
So just try coghomeschool.org
and go to it from there,
"I have heard that a lot of people have stopped sending in tithes to Living especially after the situation in Birmingham Al about working on the Sabbath and the way Mr. Grace and his wife were treated. Does anyone know how the finances are? I have heard that income is way down. I am not just being nosey. I am a member."
Great news! The income is not down--it is actually up; neither the Birmingham thing (Grace's accusations), nor Bryce/Solomon (recently embraced different doctrines) have had any financial impact at all--in fact LCG ended the year with a higher-than-expected income. Contrary to the falsehoods spread by Mr. Hamby and the "anon2" poster who claims to be getting information from inside LCG's HQ (anon2 or his source are either misinformed or choosing not to tell the truth). LCG ended the year with an over 8% increase in income, and virtually everyone at HQ knows it.
Mr. Hamby, Anon2 and the other Anonymous poster (see next) are spreading inaccurate information (at best).
"The source of the info was someone very dear and close to RCM. Do you want to call that person a liar? They also work at headquarters."
That "source" either does not exist, does not know what he/she is talking about, or they are indeed a liar, regardless of who they claim to be "close to". Name droppers are not usually very trustworthy.
So, fellow members of LCG, take heart--the income is UP! And those saying otherwise are simply misinformed or deliberately spreading falsehoods.
Mr. League is on the Council.
We should not be fooled by name-dropping antis who claim to have an inside "source" for juicy information--it is usually rubbish.
"Great news! The income is not down--it is actually up; neither the Birmingham thing (Grace's accusations), nor Bryce/Solomon (recently embraced different doctrines) have had any financial impact at all--in fact LCG ended the year with a higher-than-expected income."-anonymous
Dont forget to read this (a few posts before the above quote)
""...the income statement quoted... was for..."Financial Year 2006" that does not reflect much since September. The finacial year runs different than the January to December that most would think of and thus the income since the FOT has indeed been down , especially since all the departures. The figures Anonomous states about income being down won't show up for over a year again in the audit report, as it was already part of 2007 .""
SO THERE YOU HAVE IT! Assuming we are all telling the truth, the income is down, but will not show up until late 2007.
Friend, you are quoting erroneous "information" which was already correctly explained in one of Mr. Penman's posts shortly afterward. Either you are not getting it, or you are diliberately spreading a falshood.
LCG's fiscal year is the calendar year--Jan 1 to Dec 31. As of Dec 31 2006 (as the 2006 audited financials for Jan 1 to Dec 31 will show when published in the LCG) the income was up over 8% as of Dec 31 2006.
The statement "The finacial year runs different than the January to December that most would think of and thus the income since the FOT has indeed been down , especially since all the departures." is a total fabrication--its baloney. Go back and look at the previously-published audited financials in the Living Church News--the financial year is Jan 1 to Dec 31, period.
The Anonymous (or their "source") who stated othewise is either misinformed, misunderstanding something he/she heard, or is deliberatly lying in order to attack LCG.
LCG income as of Dec 31 2006 was up over 8% above Dec 31 2005 --that includes everything since Jan 1, 2006 (and obviously everything since September).
The 2007 audited finacials for Jan 1 to Dec 31 2007 will contain the 2007 income figures. Again, it runs the same as calendar year, and always has.
Statements to the contrary are false. SO THERE YOU HAVE IT - LCG's fiscal year follows the calendar year and its income is UP by over 8% as of Dec 31 2006!
Those who say otherwise are either passing on misinformation someone else told them, or are deliberately not telling the truth.
When I wrote:
"LCG's fiscal year is the calendar year--Jan 1 to Dec 31. As of Dec 31 2006 (as the 2006 audited financials for Jan 1 to Dec 31 will show when published in the LCG) the income was up over 8% as of Dec 31 2006." the last "LCG" should be "LCN"--refering to the Living Church News.
Sorry for the typo.
To the "anonymous" poster that lumped me with the inaccuracies i must state that, If on December 28, LCG knew what the income was, for the next three days, they had to have had a crystal ball. Income is down since Brcye, soloman etc left. I alluded to that part. I personally know of many that with held tithes since Bryce and company left (this being the last part of the year), awaiting to see what was going on. I received a phone call from some who stated they waited until Bryce started his own church to send in tithes. I was not talking about the whole year, so i don't know why you lumped me in with spreading false info. I just said ,if you would reread my posts, that with Bryce etc. leaving that Income was down. I did not say some of what you stated about me.
But again, i did ask in my posts if anyone had any info on new people tithing. I know what it is like to be wrongly accused and lied about. I had plenty of this done at the hands of LCG ministers and leadership.
But i found out that they are under a different kind of unbiblical governess, as they can bear false witness against someone, and they do not have to use the approach of "going to your brother privately if you have a problem with them".
Now please read again what i had written that set you off accusing me of spreading falsehoods. This way i can categorically discuss them on a civil front.
Sorry for the typo."
Sorry I misunderstood what was really being said. I hope to see the Jim Hamby/anonymous issue (whatever it is) resolved as well. Accusations need to be resolved.
FWIW I do not think the indie auditors for LCG would fabricate things and risk their reputation over LCG, so we await 2007 LCN. BTW, It seems to me that bryce/solomon et al didnt really take too many members with them, but Im guessing 8% is a little too high, but that the income is still probably up between 6% and 7%. 2007 will be very interesting for LCG.
I went to the June-July 1934 Plain Truth and found HWA did set dates for the end time repeatedly in it. His lying about it clear up until he died is somewhat puzzling.After all he did set these dates as well as 1975. He must have thought he could pull the wool over the eyes of his dumb sheep. I can ,by reading this understand why the leaders in the various COG's would want to suppress this Plain Truth though.
In it besides the setting dates, you find HWA charging money for the Plain Truth (pg 10).
You find him stating that his worship services were "each Sunday at 10" (pg. 10). He does not believe in the "Place of safety" or even the relevence of Revelation Chapters 12,13 and 14(pg.7). And you cannot overlook in his own writing, the diagram for the end time on page 3.
In this P.T. he repeatedly relates to the prophecied "false prophet" in which after his date setting in this issue did not pan out, made him thus the "false prophet".
On page 6, HWA states who Germany is (and it ain't Assyria). and on the same page Russia had to be GOG, because of the meaning of the word is "nation of horsemen" and Russia has more horses than any other nation.
He spells out explicitely when the Tribulation started and the times nailed down for the events of the end time to come.
But to quote the last two paragraphs of this P.T. on page 10 we read:"Let us be willing to PROVE ALL THINGS --- all things we already believe, as well as all things brought out in the PLAIN TRUTH". Also stated later is "We ask all readers at all times to consider very carefully, very prayerfully, with open mind, and without predjudice, yet cautiously, the things written in nthe PLAIN TRUTH. If after this kind of careful,prayerful study, the Holy Spirit leads you to disagree, you will have been benefitted by the study neverless.
Remember, God says His people are destroyed for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. It is not easy to UNlearn traditional teachings that are in error. Once in our minds, those teachings cling with a death-like grip."
With this all written, i can see why the powers in charge do not want this stuff brought to the attention of the sheep, and want to surpress . If only HWA had not lied about setting dates and such, maybe he could be somewhat credible.
What a con job, and to think many of us fell hook, line and sinker, for his false, failed prophecies and rendition of what the bible said.
I would like to add one more thing to my last post, and it is that the United Church of GOD DID indeed admit to it's members that HWA set dates and there were abuses from the ministry and church . They wrote it in their very first "World News in Prophecy" magazine. if there are others that admitted it, please let me know.
Mr. League is still on the Council. He stated that he is.
"In it besides the setting dates, you find HWA charging money for the Plain Truth (pg 10).
You find him stating that his worship services were "each Sunday at 10" (pg. 10)."
While that issue of PT is chock-full of failed predictions/prophecies, it is only fair to clear up the above quote so as to avoid misconceptions on anyone's part. The charging of money for copies of the PT was for extra copies; the subscriber received his/her regular copy for free. Extras were available for about four cents each, in quantities of ten, twenty-five, and one hundred. And the "Sunday at 10" does not refer to worship services, but to the day and time of the radio broadcast on KORE in Eugene, OR.
I quote from page 10 of that PT "services of the Radio Church of God, broadcast each Sunday morning at 10." Now it does not say "Radio program of the Plain Truth at 10 on Sundays" it says "services".
Also he did charge for the pt,s even if it was the extras.
Now that you did bring it up. misconception or deception was the norm for WCG and the splinters.
A case in point would be since Valentines Day is coming up,anyone interested could bring up the articles by Dr. Hoeh in WCG and the Global and Living Churches of God's articles on the subject. Then check out the references quoted in the articles for accuracies especially the GCG and LCG article on the subject.(Hint- one reference to the 15th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica)for starters. I mean how does the St. Valentines Day Massacre in Chicago in the 30's have ANYTHING to do with the subject of Valentines Day being pagan? You just might find a lot of baloney and misconception er.. deception going on there.
Now i stand by my comment about the "church service". If you want to Camfinch, look what happened when HWA had to write the membership years later belittling them about using the "broadcast" as a church service.
And as an added bonus, some may not know that HWA kept Pentecost on "3" different ways of counting over the years. Most know about Sunday and Monday, but some do not understand that in the 40's for some time he kept Sivan 6. One year he stated twice in a letter to the membership of it being on a Tuesday, with the date ,so not to have any confusion. He even repeated it at the end of the letter as well.
And as an added bonus, try checking out HWA's reasons for changing Pentecost to a Monday. Check for yourself to see if any of them panned out as accurate.They will be found in the membership letters written in lat January 1974 and the first two in February.
Now to really get you thinking, if you wish to use Raymond McNairs and GTA's excuse in 1974 in the Good News about the one version of the bible that had what they thought Leviticus 15 "mimochorat ha Shabbat"was stating, i would ask you to go to that source and read it (the American Bible), which is Catholic and the part left out by GTA and McNair was that the Catholic bible called it WhitSunday,and the references left out by WCG on the subject had stated the Jews passover and counting of the wavesheaf and the catholics "WhitSunday " were not the same.Thus of course it would agree with their agenda(WCG's). This is how HWA and those in position over the years subjected the Sheep to "misconceptional" process of attaining knowledge. Quote out of context, or just make up something - the dumb sheep will swallow anything as long as we place them under the "church Government' banner.
Then ask your self why HWA and RCM
over the years after the 1974 change of Pentecost, could not get the changes correct when they wrote or talked about them from the pulpit.
All of this is easy to check out.
I feel that if the info is out there and HWA himself said to not just check him out and what was written in the church literature, but to check out what you already believe, then why not do it?
Jim, I will stand corrected on the Sunday services part. I don't know why HWA would have referred to the Sunday broadcast as "services of the Radio Church of God", and it does sound as if he's using that terminology in perhaps a deceptive manner. On the issue of charging for the magainzes, you are of course correct that he did charge for them, but he sent the subscriber their regular issue for free. Hair-splitting semantics, I guess!
As to the validity of Herbert's beliefs and his changing doctrines, you're preaching to the choir. I in no way defend the career of HWA. Although your illustrations and historical details could prove invaluable to those who are still involved with Armstrongism.
Jim Hamby said:
"Also the income IS DOWN."
That is totally untrue. LCG income ended the year on 12/31/1006 at over 8% increase, and the trend is UP, not down!
"LCG has lied in the past when they told about the Owino situation in Africa."
Wrong again, it is Mr. Owino and Mr. Pack who made false claims. Very few went with Owino/Pack -- the vast majority stayed with us in LCG. The same goes for South Africa.
"The source of the info was someone very dear and close to RCM. Do you want to call that person a liar? They also work at headquarters."
The person is either mistaken or lying--who they claim to be close to does not matter, neither does their working at HQ.
"Do you think Meredith knows how much information his family members and top ministers are sharing? Is he really as disabled as some people are saying?"
Mr. Meredith is far from disabled. At 76 years of age he works tirelessly fulltime, exercises daily, writes and speaks more than most (if not all) ministers in LCG and travels to visit the brethren as often as he can schedule, in addition to leading a wife and staying engaged in the lives of his children. I only hope to be so "disabled" if I reach 76.
"A couple Sabbaths ago one of his top HQ ministers told a friend of mine to "be patient" about the problems at HQ. He said Meredith is now feeble and has to be handled very carefully, because he fears doing anything that will upset his wife or children. This HQ minister said they were "working things out" at HQ and even Meredith's own instability was on the agenda to be addressed eventually."
If a person is frustrated or concerned, being patient and waiting on Christ is not a bad idea; I feel a great sense of relief after leaving something in God's hands. Again, Mr. Meredith is not disabled or "feeble"--a disabled or feeble 76 year old could not last more than a week or so keeping Mr. Meredith's schedule. See above. He is also not being "handled", he is the one leading. The instability accusation seems about as genuine as the ones about being disabled and feeble. The HQ ministers are loyal and supportive--the above accusation of disloyalty looks like a transparent attempt to sow distrust and division at LCG's HQ; it won't work. If anyone did have their own "agenda" against Mr. Meredith, it would fail (as was the case in 1998); we members support him and his team as we see him and them following Christ and doing the Work.
"This came from one of Meredith's oldest supporters."
Oh, no! More unnamed name-dropping; now I am really worried (cue nail-biting audio clip)--not! That is rubbish. The only agenda of the whole HQ ministry is obviously to move forward doing the Work, not running down the leading minister (that's your agenda--perhaps you became confused).
you will delight in the news in the Weekly Newsletter published today; even better than previously estimated.
And it's from men who are willing to put their name to it not these pathetic anonymous sources.
Me thinks this thread is on the verge of breaking some sort of record for comments. Too bad the original topic about Wally Smith having his telecast lifted by the WGN censors, disappeared amid these XCG-LCG wars. (where is my rod?)
When Gary returns and takes down his Christmas decorations, maybe he'll start a new thread on the same topic, eh? ;-)
Oh! My!, Kinnear,
You were addressing your comments to LCG Members on this site? That means lots of LCG members come to this blog. And why may i ask do you approach LCG members thru this blog? Is it because they won't get the info from LCG or is it you all are worried that maybe the "truth" will come out?
By the way i thought you were not commenting again until the official audit came out months from now!
I was wondering if some one could tell me when LCG started using the Shut-ins, and those who did not go to the Feast of Tabernacles for whatever reason (health etc.),who received tapes from Charlotte, as being counted toward this last years 2006 FOT attendance?
I don't remember Bryce nor Carl McNair counting them. I do remember being told only those approved by GCG and then LCG could receive a few selected tapes for the FOT. When i had asked why, i was told by both, that many would not even bother going, if tapes were available.
This goes back from 1996 or 97 until a few years ago. It seems to me if they thought of those staying behind were not worthy of receiving tapes, then i would not think GCG or LCG would have counted them as was reported by LCG this year. That would make it appear a jump in attendance over 2005 .
you are correct. I did say I wouldn't return on this matter until the audited accounts were published. I forgot I had made that point. My apologies.
I think what gets most to start wondering off from the origional thread is that when anyone goes into anything "LCG" , much, much more comes to mind and thus is discussed . So much controversy, so little time.
Hey guys, this has been an amazing thread - the longest yet on this blog with 100 plus comments.
Maybe someone needs to put up a Yahoo group or something similar to allow the discussion to continue (this thread will slip off the end of the page soon.) Obviously LCG won't provide the forum, so perhaps someone here could do the honors. A specifically LCG Dialog/Reform/whatever discussion group.
In case anyone wondered, my stats show that LCG.org in Charlotte has been a regular visitor here during this exchange (hi fellas!) so some of the HQ honchos have been tuned in. I appreciate the fact that Kinnear has posted too, that's got to be a healthy sign.
Anyway, it's just a thought. Anyone who's interested in taking it further can drop me an email - email@example.com - and I'd make sure the word got out.
poorboy posted some new info on his page at www.poorboycomputers.com/ponder.html
Gavin - I agree. The discussions on these blogs are greatly enhanced when members of an xcg post openly. The very fact that they are commenting means that COG leaders are losing their vise-like grip on controlling all aspects of the members lives. In the 70's and 80's all it took to keep the members in line was a simple command from the podium advising us not to read such and such or no longer have any contact with so and so. Those days started to wane in the early 90's and are just about gone now. The members are starting to think now...
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste"
Hey, Gavin -- Thanks for a public spot to air our differences. Don't worry, we'll all be back when the next LCG crisis comes up.
The very fact that they are commenting means that COG leaders are losing their vise-like grip on controlling all aspects of the members lives.
Charlie -- I think the key to our participation is that we're allowed to post anonymously ;-)
I take your point! I will henceforth try not to complain about anonymous postings...no matter how much it grates on my nerves.
Take care and I truly hope all of you will continue to participate.
BTW, If the former WCG pastor of the Middletown NY church from the mid 80's to I guess around 1995 reads this website, I hope you are doing well and are in good health. I believe my father passed on my best wishes at the FOT in MD this past fall.
Mssrs....I find this forum most interesting and if I dare say" intoxicating". I have been,for lack of a better discription considered a partner or supporter for 20 plus years.I support both the PCG and the LCG although of late I have given the majority of support to the LCG.
I love discourse,however,I fail to grasp the point of your arguments other than "Iam right and your are wrong".If you can't adhere to certain diciplines than leave the church organization you are affiliated with and either join another or start your own.
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