What's up with UCG's Council of Elders? The lads have gathered in holy conclave, then dispersed to the winds. Only the first AM session of their deliberations has so far been
posted on the Web, however. What burning issues came up? Patience, it seems, is a virtue.
38 comments:
Here is what I have heard...from a reliable source: The reports were written but are under review by the Ethics Committee before printing and making public. A lot was covered in the meetings, but not all...a follow up teleconference is supposed to finish up the discussions. Apparently, some days were in Executive session until about 8PM. So of course it will be difficult to find out what was discussed in those sessions. But the public image being presented is that having the COE in Cincy last week was nothing but wonderful. If it was not that way...if there was a lot of conflict then it is the same old, same old...smoke and mirrors and not being honest about the state of UCG.
I always say that when I receive no mail, "no news is good news", because I usually only get bills and someone's sale paper.
In this case though, no news may not be good news. However, one can rest assured that the whole thing has to do with MONEY. You can take that to the bank - figuratively speaking.
Judging from the photo, no one in the photo looks younger then the mid 50's. I am sure that there are some in the field ministry that are younger but how many?
The fact is that the ministries of all the splinter groups seem to be aging. How much longer will it be before younger, more reform minded ministers want to challenge the older leadership of these groups and cause farther splintering?
You folks do know of course that the all male priesthood started in Josiah's time, i.e. the 7th century. It was at this time that much of the OT was written and that an all male priesthood wrote themselves into the the law.
Prior to this time there was no priesthood and the religion of Israel was not an all male hierarchy.
The religion of Israel was a family religion with woman having an equal voice in family worship. It was also at this time that "God Had a Wife". But the all male priest got rid of her, at least in most of the writings that later became scripture.
The people held on to "Mother God"; most of them refused to follow the dictates of the priests. She was an important deity to all of the Canaanites and later to the Northern Tribes.
They were smart...
There is NOTHING worse then the an all male priesthood that tells you how to live your life and takes your money... it comes directly out of Egypt.
Most of Judaism came from Cannon not from Egypt. There was a rivalry between the Gods of Cannon and the Gods of Egypt.
Judaism generally follows the Gods of Cannon and Christianity generally follows the Gods of Egypt.
The rivalry continues to this day.
But regrettably both Judaism and Christianity adopted an all male hierarchical priesthood.
I heard a UCG Pastor say Wednesday was the only day with executive sessions -- not the other days.
Beyond that, the pastor didn't have much to offer. He indicated he's only heard nebulous comments, about the meetings trying to bring unity to the council as it moves forward.
I appreciate the affirmation Bamboo :
After a cursory review of UCG CoE meeting reports, I get a flash back to a Sam Donaldson political observation that went something like this "the only thing more difficult than herding cats is asking the cats to herd themselves".
Seems to have some application here.
Wess
Interesting that those not connected with UCG, and so theoretically ‘not interested’ in the internal working of the group, seem to be the ones most impatient for the appearance of the minutes.
We are only talking of events of seven days ago – it’s not an unreasonable length of time, in fact the final day of the conference is still only three working days ago.
Minutes for the rest of Monday are actually now available, you will be glad to know. Interesting to see that Clyde Kilough is working with, and contributing to, the efforts of the Council.
Commentators here that are still stuck in the mentality of ‘nothing’s changed’ may find that puzzling, as that could not have happened thirty years ago.
Maybe some things have indeed changed.
" Richard said...
I heard a UCG Pastor say Wednesday was the only day with executive sessions -- not the other days.
Beyond that, the pastor didn't have much to offer. He indicated he's only heard nebulous comments, about the meetings trying to bring unity to the council as it moves forward.
Tue Aug 18, 04:11:00 PM NZST"
Apparently this UCG pastor is not very well informed...read the reports from Monday, at the end it states that the Council went into executive session.
I think that these lackluster lackeys lack the will to do much other than to hump an image of "We're doing great, and we are unanimous in that!" on those who pay their salaries.
PS: Where are the female elders?
I think the wives should withhold sex from those old farts till they let a woman in.
"Commentators here that are still stuck in the mentality of ‘nothing’s changed’ may find that puzzling, as that could not have happened thirty years ago.
Maybe some things have indeed changed."
I do hope that some on the COE have changed their nappies by now.
"Send the money in that you would otherwise have spent on air freshener"
Multiply 2.4 congregations by the number of persons per congregation by the cost of a can of Glade and it's like a Super Special End-Time Offering!
Do I smell Dizzney Land?
BTW, many who are not a part of the UCG have a vested interest in what happens there. For instance, many years ago, a relative who had joined asked me, "How could you know the TRUTH and turn your back on it?"
(That was when I chose not to join the UCG, and she has not spoken to me since.)
And that's not the only person I care about who is in the UCG.
But on another note-
UCG's website states that:
"Larry Salyer outlined the savings by not automatically sending a Good News subscription to those who request a booklet online."
Could this be because of the PZ Myers blog entry?
Could it be that those in UCG leadership will not mention Mr. Myers or his blog entry that generated so many requests for literature?
Could it be that those in UCG leadership will twist higher numbers in requests for literature to mean that people actually are interested in joining their so-called 'church'?
Nah...they'd NEVER do such things!
Questeruk Said "Interesting that those not connected with UCG, and so theoretically ‘not interested’ in the internal working of the group, seem to be the ones most impatient for the appearance of the minutes."
Maybe not, Q. So far I see only 7 comments regarding this item; yours and 6 others. That's a low response rate; perhaps there is a general lack of interest on the part of most of us regarding UCG.
"that could not have happened thirty years ago... Maybe some things have indeed changed."
That's great, Q. Perhaps UCG has indeed made progress as compared to 30 years ago. As I recall, 1979 was a progressive period within WCG, prior to HWA's heart failure and subseqent "back on track" conservative crackdown. (It depends on one's perspective, of course. Many called it not "progressive" but the "weak era".)
Has it really taken 30 years to reverse the events of the 1980's and start progressing from where we were in the late 70's?
The Skeptic
From the report: "Victor Kubik, chairman of the Ethics Committee, said that they are formulating a policy for Elder’s Forum violations. In addition, two cases of ethics problems have been brought to the committee, and one person will be interviewed this week."
Apparently Joel Meeker was spoken with in one of the executive sessions....but I do not know if that is who the statement above is referring to or not...but seems likely. Certainly his rant about Aaron Dean and also about the HO move to TX should qualify as an ethics "problem". Even Joel's "apology" was pathetic.
Three things: 1) Don't they all look nice and sheeplish in their clothing made from sheep (wool suits)?
2) There have been changes. Comically, they, for the most part, are not even aware they made changes away from Armstrong's teachings. Ask them now if the gospel has anything to do with Jesus and they will say yes. HWA said no; that Jesus was merely the messenger of the gospel, and the gospel was not about Him.
3) Corky is quite right. Everything boils down to economics in the various splinters; How to get it, and how to divide it up amongst themselves.
No need to wait, here's an early look at the council's report:
This is the "Everything is Ok Alarm." It will sound every 30 seconds as long as everything is Ok....
This is the "Everything is Ok Alarm." It will sound every 30 seconds as long as everything is Ok....
This is the "Everything is Ok Alarm." It will sound every 30 seconds as long as everything is Ok....
This is the "Everything is Ok Alarm." It will sound every 30 seconds as long as everything is Ok..., etc.
New Question:
Do you really think that a report written by a church (any church) would dare to reveal anything out of the ordinary about themselves?
The other Anonymous has his chronology off by a few years. 30 years ago, August 1979, was in the heart of the receivership. Here's how I remember it, but I long ago pitched the documentation that would confirm the chronology.
About 1977, HWA had his heart failure.
June 1978, GTA was tossed out for the last time. One of his last appearances was in Rochester New York; I was one of several thousand in attendance. This marked the end of the "progressive" era and the start of the conservative "back on track" crackdown.
January 1979, the Receivership, which continued into middle or late 1980. HWA remained in exile in Tucson. During this time Joe Tkach Sr got his attention.
Look how nice and stiff they sit in the front row, all with hands neatly placed on top of the other. They almost look credible.
dm
No vested interest in what goes on in UCG? Well, it seems I recall an old regae song with words to the effect that "so long as one of us is enslaved, none of us can truly be free". The insightful and wise Rasta man who wrote it might have had a point! Perhaps UCG COE could use a Rasta elder or two!
BB
Wess said...
I appreciate the affirmation Bamboo :
After a cursory review of UCG CoE meeting reports, I get a flash back to a Sam Donaldson political observation that went something like this "the only thing more difficult than herding cats is asking the cats to herd themselves".
Seems to have some application here.
Wess
I am at a loss of what to say. I wasn't going to post a thing about this event as I have no information on it, and not much interest in it.
I never use the moniker "Cincy", it sounds so gay. Just like "Frisco" sounds so Yosemite Sam-ish.
Do you think I am Mr Anonymous? LOL!!! Am I so dangerous people see me everywhere!!! :)
From the report: "Victor Kubik, chairman of the Ethics Committee, said that they are formulating a policy for Elder’s Forum violations.
Funniest thing I have read all week! Tkach's hatchet-man is now the UCG hatchet-man.
The foxes once again guard the chicken coop.
There will be blood.
History doth repeateth.
Anonymous asked:
"How much longer will it be before younger, more reform minded ministers want to challenge the older leadership of these groups and cause farther splintering?"
As far as i am concerned the farther they split from me the better :-))
The picture reveals the "Plain Truth" about the COG movement from Abundant Grace to HWA clones.
Forget the splintering into insignificance.
The mega trend here is old age along with attrition gradually withering HWA's spiritual and/or corporate successors
Those born into the COG's are not enough to sustain the population.
Organic growth from "outsiders" is very rare.
With smaller and smaller numbers, pretty soon it will be impossible to have "the GREAT Falling Away" taught in the Armstrong prophetic model.
The full scoop seems to be out now. Check Mike Bennett's blog for the highlights -- including the Texas land going up for sale.
BTW, Victor Kubik didn't send any Twitter messages during the meetings. Wonder if that's verboten?
"Four agencies made presentations to the task force, and the task force recommended that the Northlich Company of Cincinnati would serve the needs of the Church the best."
Your tithe dollars hard at work, sheeple. What kind of church has to HIRE A PR FIRM?!?!?!?
"Look how nice and stiff they sit in the front row, all with hands neatly placed on top of the other. They almost look credible."
Actually, I think they look like Stepford people.
AnnMarie95
"Richard said...
I heard a UCG Pastor say Wednesday was the only day with executive sessions -- not the other days."
From Tuesday, August 11:
"Executive Session
The first item of business was in executive session to discuss the assessment of the treasurer, Jason Lovelady.
After the executive session, several of the wives of the Council members and various ones from the office staff joined the meeting."
So now we know for sure that this pastor had no idea what he was talking about...there were according to the reports executive sessions on all 3 days...someone should ask this pastor where he got his bogus info!!
From the UCG COE reports: "Jim Franks discussed the recently updated outside speakers policy. He asked what the intent of the policy is since the word “permission” or “approval” is not used. It is not clear if either approval or permission is required or not.
He also referred to a case where the pastor of an elder gave approval, but the pastor in the area where the elder will speak is very much against it. He said that he is currently dealing with one situation like this scenario."
How about this...tell the pastor who is against it that he needs counseling to get over his controlling ways!! That he has no right to try to control a UCG elder who is going to speak to a non UCG group that is in "his territory". Others can see how ridiculous this control is..but some in UCG just can't see that this is a CONTROL issue...and also trying to limit free speech.
Actually according the reports the whole day Wednesday was one big executive session.
After reading some of the UCG COE minutes, it seems that the financial well being of the ministry is the only clearly concluded business.
I am not surprised
We can poke fun at these guys but you must understand that they are victims of an delusion. They believe that they are the most important people in the world. They are the governing body of God's one and only true church. Like HWA used to talk about having God as his boss.
And in the little world they have created for themselves, they are the most important people in the world. Nobody outside their circle, of course, believes that but they don't care what goes on outside their circle. They don't care about what a bunch of bloggers say about them. In a way it is like they are autistic. They have their own reality.
But they rule by contract. They tell their followers what their followers want to hear and their followers recognize them as rulers. It is a symbiotic relationship that we should be glad that we are not a part of. If their followers one day decided to call it quits, these austere men in the photograph would be stripped of power.
That is what I think when I see this photograph.
The Bear
. Hey Bamboo, sorry for the confusion the reference to you was in response to your comment on an a previous post. I was not clear.
Looking at that picture of UCG's latest board members brings back many memories of the abusive, spiteful and hate filled experiences experienced with several of these so called 'men of god'. Several sat on their rear ends in 360 and 380 SOG apartments plotting and scheming for months to start a splinter church all the while taking their pay checks from WCG. Money was one of the biggest priorities in the formation of UCG. It was formed to keep these ‘men’ living their accustomed lives of luxury and respect they felt was owed them. Several others are big time alcoholics. I know, I have seen them in action, seen them drunk and abusive to their wives and families. I have seen them drunk in the Ministerial dining room during the feast in Pasadena and elsewhere. Some were so drunk that other ministers had to help hold them upright in their chairs! There is not a single one on that board that deserves respect. They are all morally, ethically and spiritually bankrupt.
"Looking at that picture of UCG's latest board members brings back many memories of the abusive, spiteful and hate filled experiences experienced with several of these so called 'men of god'."
That was my initial reaction, too. It gives you a sick feeling inside when you look at their faces. Mostly, regret for allowing the spiritual abuses, for supressing gut feelings that things just didn't add up. Why were we all too fearful to simply walk away. Maybe, just maybe, these Stepford ministers (great analogy from a previous post) share that same instinctive feeling as well. But where do they go with a worthless degree and managerial experience in a cult?
dm
If that were a picture of myself and a group of my friends, I would consider the portrait to be totally embarrassing! Why? It reflects some antiquated attitudes in that there are no minority faces. You'd have a very difficult time convincing me that there were no African American or Hispanic elders qualified to sit on the COE! Apparently they consider diversity to be adding a couple of Canadian white guys to the mix!
What is funny is that the minutes of their sessions are being held up for review by the Ethics Committee. Let's get real. Their priorities are all screwed up. Seriously, they need to add a well placed letter "n" to that, as in Ethnics Committee. My bowling teams have more diversity than the COE, and we have only 5 members on each team!
BB
Anonymous said...
How about this...tell the pastor who is against it that he needs counseling to get over his controlling ways!! That he has no right to try to control a UCG elder who is going to speak to a non UCG group that is in "his territory".
Others can see how ridiculous this control is..but some in UCG just can't see that this is a CONTROL issue...
A few years back I came to the conclusion that most of religion is about CONTROL.
This is dualism at its zenith.
They tell you they are God's representatives to protect YOU from Satan. So sit down, pass down that offering plate, and shut up! Ten hut! Onward Christian soldiers! Your generals have spoken and you are all *red-shirts! You are just cannon fodder for their whims and fantasies.
There is no congruence between how they behave and hide the truth and their claim to be conveyors of truth.
* Red-shirts are the expendable guys who always get killed off in the original Star Trek series.
Good observation, Bob Byker:
Their names, except for Kubik, appear to be all English, German & Irish.
I would love to hear their explanation as to why the Council of Elders is so narrowly focused.
Anonymous said...
I would love to hear their explanation as to why the Council of Elders is so narrowly focused.
Presbyopia perhaps?
"I would love to hear their explanation as to why the Council of Elders is so narrowly focused."
Money.
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