"Regrets, I've had a few, but then again..."
This one is for everyone who has been a committed part of the WCG or one of its daughter churches, then had a parting of the ways.
When you think about having been a member, how do you feel?
(a) Indifferent
(b) Angry
(c) Duped/brainwashed
(d) Wiser for the experience
The actual poll is in the side bar. The question is based on one posed to a sample group of people who had left other sectarian groups. Are we any different? In a follow-up post we'll compare the two.
66 comments:
(d) Wiser for the experience
Angry at first but that didn't last long. It didn't take too long to figure out the reason why I had been duped. I just didn't ask the right questions:
"How do I know that belief is true? What actual evidence has been presented to support that assertion?"
I think you need a fifth choice
(e) wiser for the experience but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy!
First I realized I had been duped. That made me really angry. Now I just feel wiser for having had the experience, but like Bamboo, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Well, maybe I would wish it on the con men themselves. That is the only way that they will ever learn and appreciate the damage they did/do.
If it were a choice, I would have voted for "all of the above".
The Skeptic
just indifferent.
the organization i was involved with moved away from the clear teachings in the bible, so i left and joined a group that holds to the truth.
no big deal. (it may very well happen again someday)
Does the Comparative data draw any comparisons to the progression that is the normal sequence or progression that most people go through after this sort of trauma?
In other word's feelings change the further you get from the train wreck.
For instance I exited WCG 12 years ago. I wasn't sure I was making the right decision at the time. Twelve years later I am convinced it was the only sane thing to do. Yet 20 years ago I was equally convinced that the only sane thing was to "stay in the Body of Christ".
Wiser? I hope so, but can I trust the mind that once so foolishly took the path to the "Only True church?" I thought that to be wise.
Perhaps the question is rhetorical yet it seems to answer Dennis's previous Post "How screwed up are you."
Now we all know.
I should have gone to bed hours ago.
Good night all
Wess
When you think about having been a member, how do you feel?
(a) Indifferent
(b) Angry
(c) Duped/brainwashed
(d) Wiser for the experience
One group we won't hear from evidently is that of former ministers, who I know are also deeply damaged to various degrees. I have lost track of every former minister I ever knew. None that I know of comment here on AW. That tells me volumes and that former ministers bury their hurt. I try not to but I do it too. AW has been both therapy and risky for me.
Being labeled "ministurds" or declaring that one is happy they get no retirement, as has been done at times, is probably quietly fueling even more pain in some who would simply say they were as sincere in their calling as members were in theirs.
While I can at the surface level dismiss such generic and blanket statements, at a more fundamental level they stick and hurt men who are quietly wondering what the hell did happen to their good intentions.
I am sure the reason AW has no "former minister's willing to be heard from" is because of the fear of more pain being inflicted upon them personally than they probablly already have. They may be deeply changed by the experience themselves but can't take the snarky reminders of how they learned it.
When you are in the fog of religious fervor and dedication, it is only later that you can see that you were in a fog. It makes us say, "what was I thinking," or "how could I have allowed myself to believe or go along with that?" And it's painful. Wiser I suppose.
Or maybe they were just able to move on. It's difficult to drop such an identity. I have to practice not saying, "I used to be a minister" when people ask me what I used to do etc. It's a grove in the brain whether I like it or not. Usually people then present me with a list of things I must surely still believe even with that experience and sometimes I just don't know what to say.
When they ask what church I belong to now, I usually say that I am "Non-Condemational" and they drop it.
I can only speak for myself, but along with all of the above, I'd have to add "damaged" and I don't like admitting that. It sounds weak and lame as an adult. But I know myself pretty well and how I suffer loss, abandonment and fear.
I admire those that have those natural inborn skills to do so. It has been a struggle for me and admitting it helps me face it and cope.
"Christians" like a few who post here on AW who heap scorn and Jeremiah like condemnation on people they have never had lunch with and don't know is another phenomenon to me I don't understand. Perhaps it makes one who feels inferior feel superior. I don't know.
Just being honest.
PS I also, in hindsite, fault WCG leadership, if that is what we can call it, for not providing more support for ministers they threw off the train. There was the required severance which they probably hated to give, but zero emotional support and that's where the damage occurs.
I can only speak for my experience but I was called at 9;30 in the evening after having a study and told I was no longer needed and to call the personnel office for details. I never heard from another WCG type again after that except when I called to ask a question about how this works. I asked about retirement and just got the brush off. I have the legal dept letters of "don't ask me" to prove it. There was no friendship, no support, no kindness, no appreciation and a whole lot of waffeling. I guess my hanging up didn't help either after saying, "26 years and that's it?" (I was also outgrowing it as we know so would not have survived long I know.)
I had received my 25 year watch just weeks earlier and it was broken and without a battery when I tried to get it going. Karma I guess. It was an ugly watch anyway, lion and lamb stuff that had been a shelf for years probably so I just sent it back when terminated.
I almost threw it into Lake Ontario but sending it back was a better statement. Only I would have known it went into the drink...
I admit I am damaged by it all. I wish I could blow it off to experience only but it fundamentally changed me and bled over into other areas that have caused even more pain.
I blather..see how quick those old memories return.
e) Disgusted with the group, and with myself.
Bitterness is for wimps, wise for the experience. How can one be angry, it was our personal choice for joining? And yes, I would do it again!
I wish I could have voted for three of the choices.
Because I felt duped/brainwashed, and then angry, and then finally, wiser for the experience.
For people who gave a lot of years and money to the church, I don't see how they could come out of it feeling indifferent.
The thing that was a surprise to me though, was that I thought I would come out of the WCG experience with a different interpretation of the Bible, but still believing it. I never realized that I would end up having serious doubts about the Bible being the "inerrant word of God".
Phrontistes said...
"Well, maybe I would wish it on the con men themselves. That is the only way that they will ever learn and appreciate the damage they did/do."
I agree with Phrontistes. I would have no problem seeing the kind of damage some of these con-men have done being visited back on their own heads, in order to teach them a lesson.
This particular question that you pose just makes me sad.
Wess wrote:
...but can I trust the mind that once so foolishly took the path to the "Only True
church?" I thought that to be wise.
You trust your mind enough to be introspective about it all. I'd say you can.
HWA set up a clever tautology. He defined the starting parameters of his argument. (Atheists do much the same) They sounded so reasonable most of us didn't question the premise. He won the argument from the go. Its circular logic is surprisingly consistent if you buy the premise.
HWA spoon fed a line of thinking via his Bible Correspondence Course (a prerequisite to attending) that would lead to the conclusions he wanted you to come to.
He taught the Bible is some seamless whole, rather than the anthology of different viewpoints that it really is. Only he had the key to unlocking the Bible. And who doesn't want a solution to a puzzle?
Another premise was the New Testament picked up where the Old Testament left off. From that came the Holy Day observances.
Christianity has its own premise, that the Laws given by Moses to the Israelites, have a bearing on the next life with God. And that Jesus had to die to open the way to God. Judaism does not address the life after - only the here and now. You can't logically extrapolate those writings made with that context, to another context where there is a belief in a life after death!
To the Jew the law makes one a good Jew. To fail is to miss the mark. Its here were Paul builds his tautology incorporating his teaching under the law with Gamaliel and weaving into that many Greek mystical ideas from his youth as a Hellenized Jew. What does Paul use to back his authority? Just the claim he met Jesus in Arabia, and a tale about the road to Damascus that sounds an awfully lot like what people today would describe as a UFO abduction, these are fantastical claims:
Acts 9 ...he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined...a light from heaven...he fell to the earth, and heard a voice... trembling and astonished said... what will you have me do?...it shall be told you what you must do...the men with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man... Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand...he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink...there fell from his eyes...scales...he received sight...
[Radiation sickness? Acts 9 says his friends heard the voice, later the story changes in Acts 22 that they did not hear the voice... what's up with that?]
Acts 22
...as I made my journey....nigh unto Damascus about noon...there shone from heaven a great light
round about me...I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice... that were with me saw indeed the
light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spoke to me... I said, What shall I do... said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus... [He was going there anyway!]
and there it shall be told thee... to do.
[Next we're told Paul's story is very convincing!]
...Saul grew more powerful. His proofs that Jesus is the Christ were so strong that his own
people in Damascus could not argue with him.
[(Khristós) meaning "the anointed" which is a translation of the Hebrew Mašía meaning Messiah]
[The Original Disciples aren't buying any of it. Its not the Messiah part they have trouble
with, Jews believe in many Messiahs (plural). They have trouble with Paul teaching Jesus is
THE SON OF YHWH. They still don't believe that. We find the 2nd mention of a trance in the Bible...
when it dawns on Paul he needs to get out of Dodge City... The first Trance was Baalam. Later in Acts Peter had a trance too!]
...When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance... saw the Lord speaking. 'Quick! Leave Jerusalem immediately, because they will not accept your testimony about me!
The people Jesus taught will not accept what Jesus says? Hmmmm....
"How can one be angry, it was our personal choice for joining?"
Those of us born and raised in the church did not have that "personal choice", Anon, please remember that.
"Being labeled "ministurds" or declaring that one is happy they get no retirement, as has been done at times, is probably quietly fueling even more pain in some who would simply say they were as sincere in their calling as members were in theirs."
'Sincere in their calling'? Not the ones I knew, Dennis. Or maybe you mean the ones who were spotted eating unclean foods weeks before Tkach's sermon was broadcast to the masses. Or the ones who went around to members' houses, looked in cupboards, and gave white glove tests for cleanliness. The ones who enforced the Old Testament with a rod in one hand, and threat of disfellowshipment in the other (it was a power trip).
Or maybe you mean the ones who proudly admitted to owning Mein Kampf, because Herbie had a copy. Surely they were 'sincere in their calling'.
Or the ones who did a 180 on doctrine and turned into Christians at the drop of a hat, just to hang on to their pensions. Not out of any 'sincerity of their calling'.
I get that you weren't like that, Dennis, and you're to be commended for it. But the fact of the matter is, you're one of the few. All the rest of them were power-mad little despots, just itching for their chance to be Old Testament overlords in the Kingdom. You, and possibly one or two others, are the exception to the rule.
What I can't understand, is how those still in, whether they're hanging on to their pensions or not, are so much like Larry; sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LA LA LA LA LA LA WE DID NO WRONG AND NOW WE'RE EVEN MORE RIGHT" like delusional idiots.
If anything, the ones still in, would be the ones with the most pain, or at least the most resignation. Or maybe they really have drank Junior's Kool-Aid, and given it all to Jebus. Still, they made their own beds, now they have to lie in them. (And lie, and lie, and lie, and lie, through their evil little teeth.)
"I wish I could have voted for three of the choices."
Yeah, I wanted it to be "select all that apply" too.
"The thing that was a surprise to me though, was that I thought I would come out of the WCG experience with a different interpretation of the Bible, but still believing it."
Why would that be a surprise? We were taught (brainwashed) that the church's interpretation of the Bible was the only truth, 'The Plain Truth', so finding out that was all a lie, for the sake of making one man rich...how could you possibly still believe the inerrancy of the Bible?
"I agree with Phrontistes. I would have no problem seeing the kind of damage some of these con-men have done being visited back on their own heads, in order to teach them a lesson."
Would they even understand the lesson if it was presented to them?
Gavin,
I hope thart Iron Maiden cover didn't cause you to eliminate pics showing up on your blog list.
: /
Dill Weed, feeling guiltyish
: \
Anybody read Wally Smith's latest? Combined with the anecdata in the comments, looks like Spanky's selling the LCG mailing lists. Money must be shorter than time. LOL.
Blogger Anon said...
" Bitterness is for wimps, wise for the experience. How can one be angry, it was our personal choice for joining? And yes, I would do it again!"
As in "a dog returning to its vomit."
How kool is that ?!
ConnedNoMore
larry said...
This particular question that you pose just makes me sad.
That's because you're last name is Pollyanna.
(a) Indifferent - impossible!
(b) Angry - yes
(c) Duped/brainwashed - yes, when I was a member, but not any more
(d) Wiser for the experience - Definitely!
(e) Permanently damaged, but still functioning and making the best of life as it is now.
I am thankful to be free from the control of religion and belief in mythical beings. I am happy for all those who have escaped from the ACOGs in particular and religion in general.
AnnMarie95
When a friend introduced me to the HWA broadcast 55 years ago, it was a godsend. I sorely needed the peace HWA brought into my mind at that time. Soon I was a frequent browser in public libraries and Christian bookstores. I tried to prove things asserted on the broadcast, but was not able, in many research attempts, to corroborate much that I had been hearing. But HWA's ballpark vision seemed believeable, and in many ways still does. I'm talking big ballpark here.
HWA emphasized Isaiah 8:20, which quotes God saying that anything not supported in Torah (The Law & Testimony) is darkness. I accepted that. Isa. 8:20 became the lynchpin of my life. As did HWA's explanation of Hebrews 8, quoted from Isa. 31, explaining the New Covenant as a rewriting of "The Law" in the hearts of Judah and Israel. When I arrived at AC I marvelled that Isaiah 8:20 was never supported or corroborated in the classroom. We never studied "The Law" in depth, and when I asked two ministers what "The Law" is, one of them being Dr. Hoeh, neither of them could answer me.
AC students began their Biblical studies under Meredith, with a harmony of the Gospels. How does a student of God and Bible begin at the end of a book to attain a proper grasp of Scripture and an intellectually competent grasp of messiahship?
Since history tends to repeat itself, largely because character and personality tend to pass along through genetics and tradition, HWA's prophetic insights had to be at least generally true. The rivalries between Jacob and Esau have never died. The hatred of Amalek will not subside until he no longer exists. Take a look at Iran today, and their sweetheart leader, Achmadinejad. What is that, if not a repeat of Esther & Mordechai's crisis?
Israel is somewhere; the Y chromosomes keep perfect track of descendants, so Joseph and his brothers are somewhere, acting like Joseph and his brothers have always acted.
The Tkach defection was disgusting, in my opinion. Those men and women could not have embraced Christmas & Easter intelligently. Christmas was illegal in Puritan America. Even the most rudimentary encyclopedias cover the origins of those ancient pagan celebrations.
Armstrong seriously needed mending. His destruction of families, in Jesus' name no less, was unconscionable at best. The authoritarian structure he allowed Meredith and Hoeh to explain and facilitate was and still is a self-imposed cap on intellectual and spiritual growth.
I'm not playing Polyanna here, but trying to suggest that there was much to embrace, and much to reject.
Armstrong's insistence that mankind has no soul, based on his understanding of the Hebrew word, nephesh, was a huge source of emptiness in his church. Soulless people feel no need to nourish their souls -- which they most certainly do have, and which most certainly do need lavish nourishment. The Hebrew words are nephesh, neshama, ruach. Dig into those for rudimentary information on humanity.
It's been a long journey, by no means abandoned, and Armstrong was a positive part of it, despite the problems. I could never go back to AC or to its contemporary descendants. I know too much, and those in positions of authority are not equipped to learn from anyone outside their AC circles. It was great while it lasted; I still love and enjoy the friends that I met there. I'll not deliberately upset their faith with religious arguments.
In the final analysis, it was a necessary step in the progress of my life and I thank God I was there once. The wrongs were desperately wrong, but in time truth will certainly out. I look forward to that.
Coco Joe.....the experience of rejecting the bible out of hand following a bad (very bad) experience in WCG is similiar to the notion of "conditioned taste aversion" in behaviorism: an initial bad experience with something can lead someone to never like it again. It's a shame that this has happened to so many people because it is my belief that the Bible is God's word, but I'm not so nieve to think that God speaks only through His Word. He speaks to everyone in their own way, whether they realize it or not.
This is a bad poll for so many reasons.
Anon Mon Aug 17, 03:27:00 AM said, "Bitterness is for wimps, wise for the experience. How can one be angry, it was our personal choice for joining? And yes, I would do it again!"
MY COMMENT - That is easy for you to say. What about those of us that grew up in the Church of Fraud who listened to Armstrong and the Church's pack of lies about time being short, and that the end is near.
I sure noticed how the Church sucked the financial life out of its membership - some for an entire lifetime so the Church executives could live the lifestyle of the rich and famous.
I'm angry for the unnatural youth I experienced, the jaded worldview and lifeview I grew up with thanks to the WCG.
I am grateful to have left Armstrongism - it is rotten to the core which is why I think this "work of man" will not even be remembered after this current generation passes away.
But, as PT Barnum use to say, you can fool some people all the time, so I am sure the next Herbert Armstrong wannabee will be attracted by the large quick and easy cash by coming in Christ's name and deceiving many. Oh, the love of money was Armstrong's God.
Do I sound bitter?
I guess I saw everything but true christianity in Armstrong's church. Armstrong was all about "getting" instead of "giving" while deceiving the church membership that he was practicing "God's way is give". No he wasn't!
But as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Larry will defend the false apostle until the day he dies despite all the evidence of the corrupt selfish self serving man Herbert Armstrong was.
May the corrupt Herbert Armstrong rot in hell for the lost childhoods of the innocent children who grew up in his church through no fault of their own listening to his garbage.
Richard
“One group we won't hear from evidently is that of former ministers, who I know are also deeply damaged to various degrees. I have lost track of every former minister I ever knew. None that I know of comment here on AW. One group we won't hear from evidently is that of former ministers, who I know are also deeply damaged to various degrees. I have lost track of every former minister I ever knew. None that I know of comment here on AW.”
Dennis,
As you would probably acknowledge, those in the ministry now can't freely comment here, because they would be fired in less than sixty seconds.
Maybe those AC-graduated ministers surviving in the WCG splinters don't realize, or won't readily admit, they are brainwashed, morally compromised, academically deficient, damaged. The fog of their religious fervor can be rather blinding to themselves and their sheep.
WCG ministerial Nazis (not referring to you) ethically should have resigned their pastorates, fully accepting all of the personal consequences. Those who remained with the WCG/GCI were forced to do a total tear-down down of most every doctrine they religiously taught and most fanatically enforced in their captive congregations. This being the case whether they personally believed in the latest evangelical doctrines or not.
The mental processing required to do that total tear-down is more than enough to make the head swivel around 360 degrees in a total blur. A cranial “tsunami” of cognitive dissonance, in truly epic proportions! In addition, they must personally realize they most likely have been professionally, emotionally and morally damaged themselves by their AC/WCG experience. They must personally process that, in many instances, their AC/WCG ministry resulted in the unnecessary suffering, financial and spiritual rape of one hellof of a lot of people, under the pastoral care of their church.
Another rather large number of the former WCG ministerial diaspora didn't wind up in the WCG/GCI or in any of the splinters. If they now must work for a living, I think the probabilities are they would be in secular jobs of some sort, not in paid ministry. The spectrum of private beliefs in this group about how the world works could very well range from (A)rmstrongism to (Z)en and back again, Den. It would be a very interesting group to study and poll for their present beliefs, or lack thereof and changes in vocation.
Some few falling in this third category might have the natural inborn skills to process getting thrown off the WCG train, and land on their proverbial feet. Perhaps some felt in the very beginning they were called by God into the ministry, and whatever HQ told them to do, they were “just following orders”. Some might callously rationalize any collateral damage they may have caused in “just following orders” really wasn't their personal ministerial problem.
Besides the few rationalizing or completely callous in this third category, and those emotionally lobotomized to experiencing anything further at all from the WCG, there exists another, larger group of people for the WCG to reconcile with. I believe the larger part of this third category probably consists of, using your words, “ 'former minister's not willing to be heard from' and former members because of the fear of more pain being inflicted upon them personally than they probably already have experienced.” Getting brutally thrown off the WCG train wreck could be highly painful, even deadly, process for some. But for others it began a long-term, lifetime healing process. We the living, both former WCG ministry and members, who fall into this third category of painful damage, are among those who would probably benefit from some real support and genuine reconciliation coming from the WCG/GCI.
Blessed are the peacemakers.
Dennis, "non-condemnational", that's good, I like that.
When someone down at the VFW club finds out that I'm an ex-CD minister, they move away faster than a cow can lick her tongue around.
I don't know what they don't understand about "ex" but I have been "elected" to officiate many a marriage since becoming one.
Hey, it's not my fault that it's still on the books down at the county recorder's office.
Plus, I'm an easy touch and I don't charge for the service. Well, okay, a beer or two...
I just felt a lot of anger. I don't think I am particularly any wiser. I don't see a lot of wisdom in other ex-Armstrongites.
Religious deception is just another part of a world which is manifoldly evil. Why it happens to some people and not others is hard to say. There is likely a specific and personal chemistry for each person involved.
Within the boundaries of Armstrongism, it was possible to be caring and compassionante. It was also possible to be arrogant and uncaring. There were Armstrongite ministers of both types.
My guess is that there are many ex-ministers who live with great regret. That is just a hypothesis. I don't know of any personally. I do sympathize with such men, if there are any out there.
The Bear
Wiser for the Experience but, initially, a little sad really. We didn't leave because of the doctrinal changes. We left because we watched "the brethren" bite and devour each other with great disgust.
We wondered how any of these people could actually be "Gods People" and "Gods Church" if they were turning into bitter enemies? When we had finally had enough, we just quietly stopped coming.
We received one phone message from our assigned deacon asking us if we were still attending. We declined to return their call.
From there it was a long ascension out of the Death religion (as all Christian religions truly are) and into Illumination. We bear HWA and the WCG no ill will and were thankful for the friendships we formed, however fleeting they turned out to be.
Larry, I think you should be sad more often.
Dill Weed
Nope, just trying to speed up the load time: AW has been getting increasingly clunky with all the extras in the side bar.
Corky
I didn't think Christadelphians had ministers, though I guess someone would need to be credentialed as marriage celebrants. Way back in the early 80s a few of us who were in Christchurch for the feast decided on a whim to turn out for a CD "public lecture." The guy who spoke came up to us at the end, commented on our fine wide-margin KJV bibles and - on learning that we were WCG - expressed his heartfelt admiration for the book "The Missing Dimension in Sex"!
A bit long but true:
"Attachment to opinions (Ditthupadana). Clinging to views and opinions is not difficult to detect and identity once we do a little introspection. Ever since we were born into the world, we have been receiving instruction and training, which has given rise to ideas and opinions. In speaking here of opinions, what we have in mind is the kind of ideas one hangs on to and refuses to let go of. To cling to one's own ideas and opinions is quite natural and is not normally condemned or disapproved of. But it is no less grave a danger than attachment to attractive and desirable objects. It can happen that preconceived ideas and opinions to which we had always clung obstinately come to be destroyed. For this reason it is necessary that we continually amend our views, making them progressively more correct, better, higher higher, changing false views into views that are closer and closer to the truth, and ultimately into the kind of views that incorporate the Four Noble Truths.
Obstinate and stubborn opinions have various origins, but in the main they are bound up with customs, traditions, ceremonies and religious doctrines. Stubborn personal convictions are not a matter of great importance. They are far less numerous than convictions stemming from long held popular traditions and ceremonies. Adherence to views is based on ignorance. Lacking knowledge, we develop our own personal views on things, based on our own original stupidity. For instance, we are convinced that things are desirable and worth clinging to, that they really endure, are worthwhile and are selves, instead of perceiving that they are just a delusion and a deception, transient, worthless, and devoid of selfhood. Once we have come to have certain ideas about something, we naturally don't like to admit later on that we were mistaken. Even though we may occasionally see that we are wrong, we simply refuse to admit it. Obstinacy of this sort is to be considered a major obstacle to progress, rendering us incapable of changing for the better, incapable of modifying false religious convictions and other longstanding beliefs. This is likely to be a problem for people who hold to naive doctrine. Even though they may later come to see them as naive, they refuse to change on the grounds that their parents, grandparents, and ancestors all hold those same views. Or if they are not really interested in correcting and improving themselves, they may simply brush away any arguments against their old ideas with the remark that this is what they have always believed. For these very reasons, attachment to opinions is to be considered a dangerous defilement, a major danger, which, if we are to better ourselves at all, we ought to make all efforts to eliminate."
I keep cycling through the feelings in what seems to be a widening pattern. Kind of like comming down off a mountain by walking round it and passing checkpoints on certain slopes. East side there's a narrow band of grief, north face is anger, west side is ...(you get the picture).
I hope one day I'll be done circling the same spot (the Armstrong event) in my life and be able to walk in a straight line away from it.
Well, I think I'd have to add a category here. From time to time, I've felt all of the above 4. But, since I was dragged into the scam by my parents, I also feel betrayed. It was living hell growing up under the perverted childrearing doctrine. I often wondered what thought processes within the crania of my parents made them decide to single source their spiritual information to such a harsh and angry "apostle".
The funny thing is that in spite of it all, up until very recently, even after having been out of religion for over 30 years, I still honestly felt that I knew more about the Bible than most Christian churches and their ministers. Boy, was I ever wrong on that one! Who among us would go to a doctor who had no degree and thought he was exempt from "the world's" system of credential and accountability, but who based his unorthodox practice on "six months of intensive study at the library"? Having gone to the moral equivalent of such a "doctor" for a number of years has certainly made me appreciate the real ones!
BB
I realize this comment may not be read, or even posted, since this blog has moved on to another topic, but I"ll write it anyway.
I am a former minister of the WCG and I checked "...wiser" as my reaction.
Many on this list have long held feelings against the ministry which will never change. I know a number of former and current ministers, including Dennis, who I believe to be ordinary, balanced, concerned, intelligent men, with good marriages and happy families. Many of them were held in high esteem by their congregations, some not so much.
Some, regrettably, like Dennis, were consigned to the trash heap by uncaring, even fearful, managers who lacked basic human emotions, such as love and empathy.
For myself, I have never looked in a member's refrigerator, checked their bookcase, asked about their sex life, criticized their children, shouted at them in public or treated anyone less than honorably. Don't believe me? Too bad. I know many such ministers who conducted themselves in the same way.
I didn't grow up in the church, although my late wife did, and at the appropriate time, after spending time at AC/AU both my daughters left the WCG to pursue professional careers, marry professional men and raise beautiful families. Any regrets they may have had have long been subsumed.
The ministry has been much maligned by a lot of you, sometimes warranted. For the most part though they have simply become a convenient whipping boy for those who can find no one else to blame for their own shortcomings.
I believe in the old adage "Full me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me". It will be tough to fool me again!
Lochinvar
Lochinvar,
I'd like to thank you for sharing your viewpoint and participating in this discussion. In my 18 years in WCG, I only had one minister who was a tyrant. I also witnessed a few others who pastored nearby churches or regions. But, on the other hand, I also can name at least two ministers who were sincere, warmhearted, loving, caring individuals. Most others were somewhere in between.
A few seemed to be "coasting", i.e. collecting their paychecks and not putting out a whole lot of effort. This was in the early 1990's; maybe they had mentally "checked out" but at their age didn't want to look for another job.
In general, I don't think you can blame all ministers any more than you can blame all Deacons or all members. In most cases, in the church or out, power corrupts. That's human nature, and I think that's what we saw manifested. Not just among ministers, but also among Deacons and even among lay member "Deacon Wannabe's".
Were there bad ministers? Sure, there were plenty of them. But there were some good ones too. Kudos to those who honestly cared and loved and tried to help others and didn't become corrupted. They truly swam against the stream.
The Skeptic
"We the living, both former WCG ministry and members, who fall into this third category of painful damage, are among those who would probably benefit from some real support and genuine reconciliation coming from the WCG/GCI."
And kosher pigs will fly before that happens.
"For myself, I have never looked in a member's refrigerator, checked their bookcase, asked about their sex life, criticized their children, shouted at them in public or treated anyone less than honorably."
As you indicated earlier here you would not have been in a position to do so. Being removed from having to deal one-on-one with the sheep in a single congregation.
"Don't believe me? Too bad. I know many such ministers who conducted themselves in the same way."
I know many such ministers who conducted themselves in exactly the opposite way. Believe me or not. Your comment smacks ever-so-slightly of get-over-it-itis Lochinvar. Not that you're saying we all need to "get over it" just that that's what your comment says to me. I could very well be wrong. I would like very much to be wrong.
BB, your observations about how much we thought we knew had me nodding like Noddy. That was a large part of the problem.
HWA's overview of the Bible, at least as was taught up until the early 80s, was rooted in the fiction that it was mainly a book about "Britain and America" (Israel) who had failed in their covenant, were booted out, had to still come into blessings anyway, then be booted out of their present lands in a "captivity" called "the great tribulation" before Christ comes to rescue them, when they will for the first time learn about salvation. In the meantime, Very Special People with Very Special Knowledge were being prepared to help Christ when he returns - the people of HWA's church.
That summary of his teachings included everything: what most prophecy was about, why you could only be safe in his group, and why every other denomination was "false Christianity". So he had us in a bag.
When I remember that I once believed that, I squirm with embarrassment.
As the number of ministers increased, some of whom were good men as Lochinvar says, this message was perhaps diluted somewhat for newcomers with more focus placed on genuine salvation issues. But I happen to know that this "Israel" message is entrenched to this day in the minds of many older Coggies and it still defines their whole sense of identity and explanation for everything.
Gavin said...
I didn't think Christadelphians had ministers, though I guess someone would need to be credentialed as marriage celebrants..
Quite right. CD ministers are not called ministers. They are called "officiating brethren". It's a, more or less, thankless job with no paycheck forthcoming.
The job does require some biblical brainwashing classes at the nearest Christadelphian Bible School.
They don't do the "authority" thing and they don't have a "headquarters". They do occasionally disfellowship an unruly member but only after several warnings.
Each group, called "ecclesias" instead of churches, are completely independent and autonomous. So, if one is disfellowhipped at one ecclesia he may be fellowshipped at another.
Too much info?
Gosh, I always know where I can go if I wish to be insulted. But, the truly depressing aspect of some of the posters here is that many have become atheists. They have lost all the faith they may have once had.
I just watched my father die two weeks ago after a lengthy bout with cancer. And, as he approached death slowly, he began to consider his mortality and the spiritual ramifications and necessity of the afterlife.
It is my sincere hope that those of you who have plunged into nihilism will also come to similar conclusions. You don't have to wait until the end of this life is imminent. It does make dealing with bereavement easier as you will surely watch loved ones depart. After taxes, it is the only sure thing.
I never joined the church, but was brought up in it, so I won't vote.
I must admit, much of what I heard ministers preach was just "wah wah wah wah", like in a Peanuts cartoon.
However, after 30 years, I am glad to consider myself an ordinary person, rather than a person that God likes better than others.
I said, "MUCH of what I heard", not "all"
That, along with my parents going along with "God's true discipline system", and the "healing" shit that almost killed members of my family (and DID kill people I knew in my congregation), as well as the families torn apart(including my own), and the stupid teachings, and prophecies which never came to pass, and the lying mass-murderer HWA being in charge of the farce of a "church",
...have made me... learn about how easily people can be deceived, as well as having me become perhaps 'short' with those who would like to lay their beliefs on me.
So, in a sense, I am grateful to realize that Larry, Tom, and so many other apologists and armstrongites are wrong (and why they can't help it).
Sorry about your loss, Larry.
That's an insightful passage you posted there, Dennis (12:25). This sentence (among others) leapt out at me:
"Lacking knowledge, we develop our own personal views on things, based on our own original stupidity."
(In my personal view, that cap certainly fits me, incidentally.)
My first instinct was to try to figure out who wrote that passage. But then it dawned on me: I don't need to know! Why should the identity (or, for that matter, the anonymity) of a writer influence my readiness to critically evaluate the substance of a serious argument on its own merits?
Each of us will have a different "take" on Gavin's question because - thank God! - we are all different. But we are all human beings. (I think that's a fairly non-controversial assertion - at least I hope it is...!)
Personally, I have never yet met a human being who has dedicated his or her life to resolutely pursuing a course of action because he/she was firmly convinced that it was WRONG. I try to keep that in mind as I reflect on my own experiences and compare notes with others who (to varying degrees) seem to be able to relate to some of the things I'm trying to express.
Back in the 1970s, I read a newspaper or magazine article by David Sheppard, who, as well as being an accomplished cricketer in his day, was for some years the Bishop of Liverpool. I wrote down a couple of excerpts at the time (I mentioned one of them in a comment on ISA some months back), and I'd like to offer them here in the context of this important discussion, as I've found these insights particularly helpful over the years:
"You cannot criticise until you have understood, and perhaps until you have loved uncritically for a while."
"...the greatest teacher is not experience. It is experience plus reflection."
Whether we like it or not (and without prejudice to other, separate issues like "whose fault it was", etc.), we were - and are - all in this together.
As my eccentric, vegetarian-going-on-vegan, spiritualist-going-on-theosophist, unity-in-diversity-promoting great-uncle used to say, "Cooperation is better than conflict". You'd better believe it. But please don't take my word for it.
Graham Buik
Brussels, Belgium
Larry,
I'm sorry you had to go through the difficult process of your father's sickness and death. I buried my father eight years ago and my mother two years ago, and I know it is very difficult.
I don't mean to insult you, but I ask that you try not to insult me also. Your use of the terms "atheist" and "nihilist as if they were the same think is, frankly, insulting.
Yes, belief in an afterlife may make dealing with bereavement easier as you watch loved ones depart. But the fact that it makes dealing with death easier has no bearing on whether it is true or untrue. It only has bearing on whether we WISH it were true. If I have sincerely come to the conclusion that it just plain can't be true, does that make me an evil person in your eyes?
The Skeptic
Skeptic, you should not feel insulted. There was no intent in that direction. Nihilism is a philosophy of extreme skepticism.
As for for thinking that you are "evil", that is absurd. EVIL beings are those who derive pleasure from seeing or causing the suffering of others. They are irredeemable. And the description probably cannot be applied to anyone who posts here.
The folks who post here, who have left the Church or joined "splinter" groups, or become atheists are not bad people. Neither are the ones they left behind. Everyone who has ever been a member of the WCG or even the other groups has demonstrated courage! It is not easy to dare to be different or even weird.
But, one thing is certain, and it was made abundantly manifest to me once again, as I went through this ordeal with my Earthly father; life is very short, temporary, like a vapor. This life is way too short to be judgmental or to partake in victimology. It will all be over soon enough.
Bamboo Bends wrote some remarkable things here. He said, "Christianity has its own premise, that the Laws given by Moses to the Israelites, have a bearing on the next life with God. And that Jesus had to die to open the way to God. Judaism does not address the life after - only the here and now. You can't logically extrapolate those writings made with that context, to another context where there is a belief in a life after death!
"To the Jew the law makes one a good Jew. To fail is to miss the mark."
I'd say, "Yes and no," to those statements. We do believe in an afterlife; that is, an afterlife is taught in traditional Judaism, but we don't legislate belief. Some believe; others don't. All are acceptable.
Since I have no knowledge of how Jesus might have opened up the door to eternity, I'll not address that topic. But Jews do constantly affirm belief in the hereafter, both during Sabbath worship and on weekdays when the Torah is read during services.
After each of the eight Torah sections read on weekly Sabbaths, this blessing is sung: "We praise you O God, Sovereign of the universe. You have given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. We praise you O God, Giver of the Torah." (Fewer Torah sections are read on weekdays and annual holidays.)
The goal of serious Jews is to so thoroughly engross ourselves with Torah that our lives become living Torahs, ready for eternal life. Presumably the next life will be an extension of the here and now, which in fact is the only life we ever will have -- the here and now. We therefore do our best to take advantage of every moment to build prosperous, successful, healthy, joyful lives in the here and now -- forever.
I would have to vote for both Angry and Wiser for the experience.
Like several others who post here I was born into the WCG and was spoonfed a bag of shit far far more damaging than the Santa Claus myth.
However, over time I am moving into the 'Wiser for the Experience' category. I only get angry about it again after spending time with my still duped parents when I relaize the have precious little time left to enjoy life, yet they persist in the armstrong nightmare.
Dennis - You were and are a good and decent human being...But I have to also agree with Purple Hymnal that you were in the minority. Some of the ministers I had were good people. But there were some bad egss as well.
Marc Masterson, Dan Biere, Ozzie Englebart, and Jim Jenkins should be counted among the good guys. Unfortunately three of those men are dead. The a**holes continue to live and I will leave them un-named...They know who they are.
We had a local elder once who was also a very good guy: Gerald B. and his wife, even when I was disfellowshipped would write to me and send cards whilst in the Marines. I'll never forget their kindness.
I met some good people as well as total and complete douchebags. Overall, it was the theology and the delivery of said theology that did the damage. I may someday while visiting my son in College (In CA) visit herbie's grave and piss all over it.
Larry,
Thanks for the kind response. I can see you did not mean any insult. However, a quick look at the definition of Nihilism on Dictionary.com tells me that term does not apply to me, even though I am a nonbeliever and a skeptic.
The Skeptic
I am posting this not to defend myself but to clarify to Anonymous that I was in fact the pastor of a congregation in SoCal for five years at a time when the WCG was going through a growth spurt ... so have had quite a bit of hands on and face to face interaction with members.
My main activity, however, (and it seems Anon knows me) was in Admin which places me firmly in, in most peoples' opinion, a corruption infested, sick and malevolent environment. I must have been blind to it I guess.
The reason I remain nameless is because I know full well any comments I make will be judged on who I am rather than on what I say. Not apologizing, just explaining!
Lochinvar
Charlie wrote,
"I may someday while visiting my son in College (In CA) visit herbie's grave and piss all over it."
If you need precise directions to
the location of the "Great End Time
Work" (now reduced to growing grass
and the odd daisy) I can cheerfully
provide it!
ConnedNoMore
This was one of the best topics that I have seen here in a long time. It really touches all of us in one way or another, and you have to admit at least one of the answers will validate what most of us went through. Thanks for all the heartfelt answers, I am but a small fish in a big ocean of survivors, but for all the differences, I love you all, we are not alone.
The issue as to how we regard WCG/ACOG splinter ministers does surface here from time to time. Overall, I've noticed that remarks often tend towards cliched generalizations, usually erring on the side of giving no slack. I've seen former ministers viciously attacked on forums, even though they had totally repented of their Armstrongism, and were now "some of us". It's a shame. Certainly there should be the potential for redemption for all human beings, cultic ministers included.
My own personal criteria usually involves itself in how such ministers used or abused their authority. In reflecting, there certainly were those who wielded authority in a Christ-like manner. Others, I don't even have words for. As an AC student, I watched some very nice people become warped and distorted into authority-mad ogres, to be avoided at all costs. Anyone still remaining in this category is always going to be personna non grata with me.
You have to take each individual on a case by case basis. Some were sincere, and used their authority sparingly, with fear and trembling. Others were arrogant, and ran over people rough shod. I believe that what bothers most of us is that the type of authority structure in which these individuals participated is found nowhere in the New Testament, therefore rendering our entire experience as having been totally unneccessary!
I'll close with a parable of sorts. Imagine being in a crowded elevator. Suddenly, the stench of raw untreated sewer gas permeates the atmosphere. As everyone suspiciously eyeballs the persons standing around him/her, somehow an embarrassed and red-faced explanation from the rider in the little pork-pie hat that "sorry, it just slipped out" is not going to be altogether satisfying to every occupant of the elevator. Ministers, mild or otherwise, are going to need to realize that.
BB
"after spending time at AC/AU both my daughters left the WCG to pursue professional careers"
Lochinvar,
As PK's, I am happy your offspring did so remarkably well.
But your vague comment implies your daughters didn't graduate from AC/AU, so any workplace success they had can't be entirely attributed to attending classes at AC/AU without getting that oh so valuable Ambassador diploma.
You also pridefully mentioned they pursued "professional" careers, but didn't get down to specifying which of the professions. Not to pry, but this sometimes amounts to nothing more than resume inflation for full-time work outside of the household.
OK Embarrassing, I am happy to assuage your curiosity about my daughters and their "professional" careers.
My oldest daughter left AC Pasadena with an AA degree (AC offered her no challenges) went on to Cal State LA for a BA and then to USC where she gained an MSW. She also graduated with no debt, having worked two jobs to do so.
My youngest daughter left then AU after four years, graduating with Highest Distinction (one of five who did so). She then decided to attend King's College, London University, where she graduated with a First Class Honours degree. She then went on to study law and is now a practising solicitor in London. Her husband has a PhD from Oxford. My oldest daughter also married a PhD.
I am very proud of my daughters and their beautiful children. As I mentioned, my wife died not too long ago and much of my daughters' success in life is down to her.
Anything else?
If you are really curious email me at ft-cb@hotmail.com and we can 'take it outside'!
Lochinvar
"EVIL beings are those who derive pleasure from seeing or causing the suffering of others. They are irredeemable. And the description probably cannot be applied to anyone who posts here."
What about applying that description to some of the ministers of the church posted about here, and on the other blogs, Larry? Or is that too far outside of your comfort zone to admit?
"(and it seems Anon knows me)"
Sorry Lochinvar: I did not mean to make you fearful. Far from it. I remembered that you had said in the comments section here on AW that you were formerly an evangelist no longer drinking the kool-aid.
"My main activity, however, was in Admin which places me firmly in, in most peoples' opinion, a corruption infested, sick and malevolent environment. I must have been blind to it I guess."
I would respectfully ask: Are you blind to it now? Were you saying in your earlier comment that Administration was somehow kinder and gentler than the field ministry? (Maybe from a pastoral perspective.) Surely you've never laid eyes on the letters sent out to the ministry about troublesome members? Or how did that work, when the hammer from Headquarters, came slamming down on the heads of the unsuspecting brethren?
"The reason I remain nameless is because I know full well any comments I make will be judged on who I am rather than on what I say. Not apologizing, just explaining!"
No doubt! Dennis has an insane amount of personal bravado in my opinion. :~)
My condolences to both Larry and Lochinvar on their recent losses.
If you are really curious email me at ft-cb@hotmail.com and we can 'take it outside'!
That offer open to anyone Lochinvar? I've got some questions, too, of a technical nature not unpleasant ones. Or I hope they won't be unpleasant!
Thanks,
Aggie
Mr. Locvinar, whom I know personally, is one of the kindest and most compassionate, well meaning human beings I had ever met in WCG. As a teen in AC we clicked and somehow, though it never came out for years, seemed to be on the same pages. He is a bit older than myself and was a minister already when I was a student. But he never seemed to fit the mold of that time which is why I recognized something that only became obvious years later.
He has also told me, and I him, of our regrets. I spent a lot of years thinking the insanity would stop and reach a homeostasis of somekind after the personalities either changed or were gone. Alas...
I do have to blame him however for telling me he promoted me into the ministry above all at "manpower meetings." For that, we shall have to come to blows..:)
"No doubt! Dennis has an insane amount of personal bravado in my opinion. :~)"
It's pain and a recognition of explanations for all things Bible one is never exposed to in a denomination of anykind. I was naive and hopeful. What you mistake for bravado is probably repressed anger that fuels the wonder of it all.
I probably have some OCD and certainly GAD (general anxiety disorder) which, while I am not happy about, at least can be addressed by being aware of it.
"You have no idea how little I think of myself, nor how much I deserve it." :)
Someone said that once and I have to work on that stuff personally. I think it's chemistry
I too knew Lochinvar personally over several years. My wife used to babysit his wonderful daughters on many occassions. Although I have not seen him in person in many years, we have communicated from time to time. He is welcome in my home at any time.
I was not a minister but worked with many and had serveral good friends in the ministry. Some people in the ministry were very talented, compassionate people. Others were selfish, stupid jerks and some were downright sadistic.
The best people in the wcg were idealists who wanted a better world. We (and I have to include myself) wanted an end to war, hunger, suffering - no more tears, no more death. What HWA taught made sense within a certain context. I think because we all wanted so desperately for wcg to be the true church that many of us stayed far too long, being faithful, waiting for God to lead the way, rationalizing and hoping our lives away. Some of the people who stayed the longest were the most faithful - some just the most desperate, others just clinging to the money. I think people left as their own thoughts and convictions and understanding took them out of wcg over the years. All of us were under enormous psychological stress.
It is a huge error, in my opinion, to think that the members of the ministry were in any way significantly different from the rest of us in terms of personal weaknesses, character, morality, etc. The average wcg congregation had more "little Hitlers" sitting in the audience than it had up on the stage. Some of the ministers were just immature, naive, idealists guys who never really had a coherent frame of reference in which to work. Someone who could not keep his ego under control was bound to screw up royally and maybe hurt a lot of people.
In the end, everyone who was ever associated with the wcg deserves at least some of our compassion.
Anon 07:16,
In all the time that I have been in the Church, I have never known any members or ministers who fell into that category.
Paco,
Those of us still in the WCG/GCI are idealists. We look forward to a world without ignorance, hunger, poverty, fear, violence, and war. And we believe it is inevitable.
I realize this post may not be read since much blogwater has been passed but I'll do it anyhow.
First, thank you Denis. I will not go back on my original evaluation and recommendation made to the dreaded Manpower Committee ... you were, and probably still are, one of the most qualified pastors of the time. Your own congregational reputation still today bears testimony to that fact. You were treated unforgivably by wcg.
Second, of course Purple, feel free to contact me any time, with tough questions or not on
ft-cb@hotmail.com I'd like to hear from you.
Third, thanks Paco. I have no idea who you are and couldn't even begin to guess! My sincere thanks also to your wife.
Mazeltov,
Lochinvar
"The average wcg congregation had more "little Hitlers" sitting in the audience than it had up on the stage."
Well said!
I was as much abused by fellow "brethren" as I was by minsters. I used to wonder "what is it with these people", but I figured we all had faults and God was working with them just as he was (I erroneously thought) with me.
Power corrupts, and not just among ministers. Put a man in charge of the parking crew, and the next thing you knew he was lording it over you.
Not all. There were some in the church who were gentle souls, had love for all, and sincerely tried to live a life of giving. These individuals were a joy to be around. However, at least during my time in the church, they made up no more than 20% of the church population. They were outnumbered by the power-hungry, the disfunctional and what I call the "temporaries".
Temporaries? Did anyone besides me notice how the large amount of "churning" that seemed to constantly go on in the church. There seemed to be a permanent cadre of long-timers, but there was also a constant flow of people leaving and new people entering. I'd guess at least 1/3 of those sitting among us on any given Sabbath would only stick around 1-3 years. This might be a phenomenon worth analyzing.
The Skeptic
The Skeptic
Basically, I think we've isolated our abusers: Idealistic Pharisees!
You could be idealistic, or you could be a pharisee. But, crash the two together, and voila! Little Adolf!
BB
The Skeptic asked, "Did anyone besides me notice how the large amount of "churning" that seemed to constantly go on in the church. There seemed to be a permanent cadre of long-timers, but there was also a constant flow of people leaving and new people entering."
One Sabbath in or around 1976, our local minister in England started his sermon like this:
"A man who recently left the Church said to me: 'It seems to me that the Church of God is like a sort of tube. People come in one end, move along inside, and then drop out the other end.' So my question to you today is: If Christ came back tomorrow, would YOU be 'in the tube'?!"
He was also the only minister I ever knew who preached a (non-allegorical) sermon on The Song of Solomon, and another devoted to the life and work of Mother Teresa of Calcutta with quotations that I still remember to this day:
"... make them feel wanted because they're people";
"Let no one come to you without going away better and happier."
It's a pity he didn't have a wider audience, but I'll always be grateful for his influence on my life.
"The average wcg congregation had more "little Hitlers" sitting in the audience than it had up on the stage."
Absolutely agreed. It was so bad in one of my congregations, that Headquarters used to send "liberal" (they weren't really) pastors, to try and offset the deacons we had to contend with.
I know the term "Gestapo" comes up often, but these particular super-deacons who held this particular congregation in their thrall were much more emblematic of the Nazi SS.
I could tell tales of the SS wives, namely the one who was the scourge of all the children in the congregation, and was quietly and quickly avoided by every child, as to fall under her wrath often meant to be exposed to biting, wrathful criticism no matter the age of the child.
If you caught her in a foul temper, she had no compunctions whatsoever about beating other peoples' children, who she felt had too much of "the spirit of man" in them. With the "recalcitrant" parent in question watching, so they could be properly instructed, in how to raise a child in a properly "godly" manner.
Corporal punishment was a fact of life, in this congregation, so there weren't too many children who this deaconess felt the need to wail on. Most of the liberal members didn't have children, fortunately. Unfortunately for the few families who did, I think all of us caught the back of that bitch's hand, at one point or another.
Or I could talk about the time the SS put the converted parent on trial, in a manner that made the Salem witch-hunts look like a May Day celebration. In some respects, the converted parent did deserve it. The converted parent was far from perfect as well. And we certainly would have been a hell of a lot better off, if we HAD been disfellowshipped, ten years before we ended up walking away!
On the end of it, it was between the pastor, the SS, and the converted parent, as to whether or not our place in the World Tomorrow would be in the Kingdom, or the Lake of Fire.
I can laugh it off now, at how silly it all was, but at the time, it truly did feel as though our eternal lives were hanging in the balance. While the SS got off on their small-minded and petty machinations of power and control.
So, yeah, the lay-ministry were far, far worse, than even the worst ministers I've had. (With the possible exception of Neil Earle, who is now almost laughably toothless; he and Richard Pinelli used to be referred to as "the Gestapo twins" or alternately, "the scourge of Toronto".)
That's not to say the pastors were perfect peaches, by any means, either. Especially not since all of my former pastors are now jumping up and down on the bandwagon for Jebus. Not out of any kind of true trinitarianism however; they're just hanging on for their pensions. Which it looks like they might not even get, after all these years.
While Dennis feels it is wrong for me to be happy at that prospect, and I acknowledge that holding on to such a negative sentiment probably only does me more harm, than the recipients of my ire, I stand by my belief that that is the least those pastors deserve.
Even if they were "liberal" or "moderate" and didn't open peoples' cupboards, or disfellowship people for looking at them the wrong way, they still looked the other way, as their deacons and deaconesses did the dirty work for them.
If the random musings above sound negative, or the b-word, please don't take them as such. They are statements of fact. I've actually been thinking of some of the good times I had as a kid, lately. There were some highlights, it wasn't wall-to-wall evil 24/7, hardly. I've reached an equanimity with it all, the above notwithstanding.
That said, I've little problem with telling the truth, where the truth is due.
"Second, of course Purple, feel free to contact me any time, with tough questions or not I'd like to hear from you."
Thanks, Lochinvar, I will be in touch.
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