Tuesday, 8 April 2008

Contemporary COG

Bring out the guitars, raise your hands in praise... no, it's not a Tkach congregation, it's classic COGism for the younger demographic (I can't find many oldies pictured on their website). Lots of kids, guitars... you just know these dudes don't use the purple hymnal!

Who are they? Rock Valley Church. I'm guessing that in a previous (and less cool) incarnation it was called Lake Elsinore Sabbath Church, but I could be wrong.

Well, I'm impressed anyway... if the PR matches the reality (and you have to admit the site looks swish). But - and this will doubtless come as a huge surprise to most of you - I'm a cynical old codger. Does the reality match the carefully crafted hype?

I'm guessing that this is Bill Lussenheide's home patch. Unless I'm mistaken pastor David Liesenfelt is related to and/or a business associate of the Luss. Bill, do you care to share?


Lussenheide said...

Gavin and all:

The lead guitarist pictured there is my son Brad.

My sister in law is the blonde on the end. Yes, my business partner, brother in law and best friend is the pastor.

Remember when 7 UP called itself the "Uncola"? Rock Valley is the "UNCog".

The Music rocks, includes guitar, drums, even bongos, and is geared to an under 35 set. (Although there are senior folks who dig it). Dress is casual, even levis. Doctrinal diversity is common, as long as people meet in peace. Force, pressure or dominance is absent.

People are encouraged to have their own ministries and outreaches. There is no hierarchy, no tithing mandate, No BI, never a mention of HWA or frankly even the rest of the COG. No one is called "Mister". It is a fun church that is not full of a lot of COG sociological baggage. We stick to the basics of striving to be the best human being you can be, worshipping God, and seeking his will.

Over half the membership has never had a "COG" connection of any kind. We have lots of kids, so a big part of what we do is oriented for children/teens. So call this the new improved version of Sabbatarianism. Yes, contrary to any arguments that may be posted, one can be a Sabbatarian without being an anal moron.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

Very nice and refreshing--real people. Now if their women would just cover their hair …

DennisDiehl said...

What Dooms a Church to Division and Rancor?

Obcession with prophecy as if they know.

The One Man Show and giving credibility to the show he puts on, except most realize but won't say what a show it all seems.

Send it in and don't question where it goes and for what.

Make "Time is Short" so let's build a headquarters, campus and college your theme and don't explain how that shows time is short.

Have nothing or no one in place with the authority to tell the One Man Show he's mistaken, that sermon was inappropriate, you have to share that information NOW, or you're a fool, please step down.
(Voting with your feet has only ever been the one vote the COG's understand.)

Never respond or follow through to that "huh?" or "what the hell is he talking about?"

Be an expert Bible Reader, never disconnect the phrase "God says," from the character who actually said it.

Be unwilling to serve and more prone to having to lead.

Never admit you could be mistaken, much less be able to come up with some specific times you were.




Belive bullshit about yourself

Make scripture mean what it never meant.

Be Piously Convicted of your truth balanced with being marginally informed about the source or context of your truth.

Mark those that cause division.

Label all those that disagree with you or the group as "fallen away," "deceived," "in the bonds of Satan," or simply "faithless in seeing where God is obviously placing his name. "
(I can't remember ONE obvious thing God in WCG)

Be sure to teach that while God does they work, He will make you feel like you had to think it all up and do it all yourself. (which you have)

Did I say, "be sure to send it in now, time is short" and then start building permanent facilities for the short haul?

I think rancor is the product of button pushing that some are still capable of doing well and they either don't see it, or in Jesus name, don't care as somehow it adds to their sense of themselves.

The COG's multiply by division and add to themselves by subtraction of others from their own groups.

Rock Valley Church looks like what might happen when you just want to be left alone, follow your faith and stay out of the mix of all I have mentioned above.

Church for me growing up as Presbyterian was a wonderful experience. No threats, no wacky sermons (although I don't remember any of the ones given either), no looking at a minister as anything else than a guy who helps and encourages. You gave what you could and never gave what you didnt have to give.

Then along comes some who remind us how we used to be or never were or are glad we aren't anymore and buttons are pushed that we see we still have to tape over and not allow to be pushed anymore.

It's a lesson, it's even painful and somewhat annoying, but that's how we see that we really all here have come a long way in not ever again being taken advantage of in the name of God, Jesus and all the Holy Apostles.

It is my observation and experience that those most sensitive and sincere in their practices become the most cynical, cautious and can't abide the fools who remind them of their past experiences that do not serve them anymore.

Sorry to go long...

Weinland Watch said...

Sermon for 2006-05-20 mentions "Iran".

The woman in the photo on the front page has not cut her hair.

There is also a five-part sermon series on "Resurrection and Eternal Judgement".

From the Our Mission page:

"God will send His Son again, although this time it will be to establish a new, worldwide kingdom where there will be no more war or oppression, no more starvation or injustice. A time is coming when all will be taught and know the ways of God. We invite you to be a part of God’s magnificent plan."

And just make sure you're not in the third resurrection and you're good to go no doubt.

The 2007 Feast of Trumpets screed here seems like very typical Armstrongism. It is a sermon that would not have been out of place in my congregation around 1989. Pay attention to the "complacency" soundbite at the end, and the "the world says god doesn't exist" mentality around the middle.

There are also separate sermons for each of the Top Ten commandments. A two-parter on the fourth commandment of course. Point of the sermon? "You don't love god if you're not a Sabbatarian."

"Love is broken when you break the law."

That is a direct quote from the beginning of The Fourth Commandment Part 1. I had to turn it off at that point because the sermon (and Lissenfelt's oratorial style) is WCG through and through. That earnest delivery, that forceful invective, it's all coming back to me now........Aaargh. Are you sure this is Bill's home turf? Lissenfelt's invective suggests they may be more hard-liner internally than they outwardly make themselves appear. ("Smile brethren!")

However Our Beliefs:

"Our salvation is not by works, but by grace through faith." (and here they cite no less than TWELVE scriptures to back this up).

All well and good you say? Perhaps not.

"The believers become the children of God by being baptized into His name and receiving His Holy Spirit. As a result, they become brothers to Jesus, heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ."

God as god is god family gods. Mormonism much??

"The saints keep the commandments of God, including the two great commandments, the Ten Commandments and the teachings of God contained through the Bible."

"If you love Jesus, you will keep His commandments; this is what matters to God." (seventeen scriptures cited to back THAT up)

"The basic doctrines of the church include repentance from dead works, faith toward God, baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." (Twenty-three verses are then cited. Bible Correspondence Course Lite one wonders? And very troubling, that mention of "the laying on of hands". Don't they look like whole foods health nuts in those pictures? Wonder where they get the anointed cloths from........)

"We currently have Bible School for children ages 5-12 during the sermon portion of the service."

Utilizing YES lessons and The Children's Bible Stories no doubt. I wonder if all those white kids in the photos get to colour in the Table of Nations like we did??

"For those with younger children, a parents' room is available, as needed, with sound piped in to listen to the service. Parents are always welcome to have their children with them in the sanctuary for the entire service."

As long as the kids are blanket trained of course! Somebody should go listen in at the (probably locked) door next Saturday, see if they can hear any kids screaming bloody murder while being "lovingly corrected".

It may look good on the surface. But you don't have very far to scratch to see that something just isn't right.

tkach's $wiss banker said...

Oh no, not another Indie COG operation. The democratization of Armstrongism - a long way removed from the Salt-Mines of Perbert's Tithe Slavery.

I'm all for it if it takes more members and money away from Greedy Tkach .

Byker Bob said...

Judging from the site itself, the group seems to be open, as opposed to cultic and separatist. That is a healthy attitude, mentally, socially, and spiritually.

I believe that it is good for young people to have creative musical outlets, too. I passed on that one, when I was a young WCG teenager because I didn't really appreciate being restricted to religious music and squeaky clean stuff. But, other musician friends did jump in and become involved, recognizing the benefits and opportunities involved. Later in life, I began to hear that any number of my rock, blues, and country idols had gotten their musical starts as youngsters in church. Why no less a talent than Elvis Presley would get his musicians together after hours to do gospel music, and this was at the peak of his fame!

As for the Rock Valley Church, and especially if Luss is representative of the group, I'd say they appear to be accomplishing some good things in people's lives. You'd really need to get a bit closer to them to verify this. After all, in the case of churches, a website simply becomes part of the outreach program. Still, it's nice to see an ACOG that actually invites the public to worship services. You've got to wonder how the parking deacons might react if a Harley Davidson rumbled into their lot, though. That'd probably be the acid test, right there.


tallone said...

If I were still a Sabbatarian this church would certainly appeal to me way more than the dull boring church services of LCG, PCG and UCG. It even looks more exciting than WCG's attempt at praise worship which believe me was/is TOTALLY lacking in genuineness. It is also nice to see that there is no mention of HWA or their 'legacy'. Maybe they are truly free to really worship God without all the baggage of Armstrongism.

Bamboo_bends said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

"Our salvation is not by works, but by grace through faith."

"If you love Jesus, you will keep His commandments; this is what matters to God."

No sir, no disconnect here. You aren't saved by keeping the law, but if you don't keep the law you won't keep your salvation because if you love God you'll obey him and if you don't, you don't love God and God won't allow you to rule the nations with a rod of iron if you don't love him.

While independent COGism is much safer and healthier than hardcore Armstrongism, it's very confused and sloppy when it comes to explaining law and grace. A piece of advice: Just pick a side and go with it. Grace or Law. You can't mix them.

The Apostle Paul

Neotherm said...

This is Armstrongism very slickly packaged. The photographs project youth and vibrancy. But when you read the Our Beliefs Statement carefully you understand that this is not a Christian church at all. One sees instead the familiar face of Armstrongism.

But only if you look closely enough. One might read the entire Our Beliefs Statement and not notice some of the cues that point to Armstrongism. This is odd. What do they have to hide and why would the true nature of their church be so artfully concealed?

They make the bold statement: "Our salvation is not by works, but by grace through faith." We would need to question them pointedly about this. I would expect that they fit the criteria for a Jesus
Plus Cult.

I would like to see them state on their initial webpage that they believe in a God (family) who exists as two separate entities, is not transcendant, is not omniscient and that works (such as Sabbath observance and tithing) are an essential part of the cause of salvation. Most people could then immediately recognize them as non-Christian, in spite of how they have named their church.

My guess is that this packaging affords them a less controversial position in the communities where they operate.

-- Neo

Questeruk said...

Weinland Watch said...
Sermon for 2006-05-20 mentions "Iran".

The woman in the photo on the front page has not cut her hair.

There is also a five-part sermon series on "Resurrection and Eternal Judgement".

Terrible – Three major problems in the first three lines.

- Surely a Church shouldn’t mention ‘Iran’ in a sermon.
- Haircuts should be mandatory for all women.
- No sermon should be multi-part.

This is really serious – could we start a ‘Rock Valley Church Watch’ site?

Questeruk said...

Hi Gavin - are things being moderated/censored now?

Anonymous said...

ok...so now we've learned that wienland watch has a problem with truth.

Lussenheide said...


Such paranoia from so many of you!

I guess we should keep an eye on Lussenheide and Liesenfelt because they are GERMANS too! Afterall, if you are a Nazi, then you have to be a German. Therefore ALL GERMANS = NAZIS.

Folks, this is infantile thinking. Any of you are welcome to attend anytime and see for yourself. In fact, the services are going to be webcast live very shortly. David Liesenfelt is a very kind loving man, and the most righteous man I have ever known. We are very close, and I have never known the man to be on any kind of ego trip, or have any major vices of any kind. A true servant.

Yes we believe in the 10 commandments. How can one argue against them? Jesus came to save us from our sins. The power of God's spirit will produce fruit in our lives, but certainly grace is what saves us.

Weinland Watch- I will be blunt, but you are full of feces, and are quite rude with your uninformed accusations. Didnt Jesus say that we are his joint heirs, and brothers? Dont twist this into some odd Mormon Family of God construct.

We do not use YES lessons or any COG materials. The COG of the past is never addressed or thought about. More than 50% of the people there have no idea who HWA is, or was, and have no COG org background. Nearly all of the membership here are educated, self employed, and We have attendees of every race, black, hispanic, white. There is no corporal punishment administered at church and frankly this is forbidden. , Kids are allowed to have fun before and after church. We have our own playgroud, slides, monkey bars etc, and older kids toss the football or frisbee around (and I like to play too sometimes!)

Im a libertarian COG person. If it sucked there, or it was authoritarian or controlling, I assure you that Id be the first to blow out.

We have bikers visit too btw! Full fledged Harley folks, with Tats and all. Here is their website:

Neotherm: You are incorrect. This is a non HWA church and non Armstrongism. You could consider us to be as much "Armstrong" as the Seventh Day Baptists. Being Sabbatarian does not make one "Armstrongist". Im sure the folks at the COG 7th Day, would also take great offense to such. We are sola scriptura in preaching, allowing individuals to make their own decisions according to conscience. In some fashion, I would even say that we are more like the COG 7th Day in demeanor and practice than anything that the WCG had, has or spun off.

My overall comment to the armchair critics is this...sour grapes dudes! Come on down sometime and check out the sociology for yourself. Double your money back if you dont dig it! I'll even buy you lunch afterwards!

Peace Brothers, Peace!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Anonymous said...

Is this an Armstrong COG?

I notice from their website that they keep the Days of Unleaven Bread and Feast of Tabernacles. The pastors seem to have real life job experience in the real world unlike the legacy WCG and its splinters. Has Meredith, Packatollah, Flurry or Kilough ever held a real job in the real world?


Richard said...

At first glance, I'd say the traditional COG's need more of this. "Going younger" is an approach plenty of mega-churches use these days.

But this is the very thing the traditional COG's fear, because it looks like a big step down the slippery slope to liberalism. Yet it doesn't have to be. Show your group to be a congregation of LOVE, as God is a God of love!

When Clyde Kilough became UCG President, he gave signs he might steer The Association (to borrow from pro basketball) in this direction. He even played a rock song by "Fastball" during a sermon shown in all congregations.

Yet I fear that effort has become bogged down, in things such as the move to Texas. And I fear he's taken over hands-on control of too many things in UCG, for him to be accepted by the Elders for a second term as President.

Gavin said...

Moderation is clearly signaled at the top right of the main blog page.

To quote from the previous thread:
Byker Bob said:

"As a biker, I am certainly not a prude. But, man! Some of the stuff being posted any more is just really juvenile. AW has always been known as a place to stimulate one's intellect. It still is, but the back and forth name calling and baiting is getting mighty tedious.

"Any suggestions as to how we can turn this situation around, and maybe get stuff flowing in a positive direction again?"

[My response] Amen brother! The solution is to go into moderation mode - at least temporarily. I tried to drop a hint with the "house rules" earlier this week... but...

And please, no whining, pouting, ranting, winging, grizzling and groaning about "freedom of speech." ...

Or censorship! Of course you could try posting a protest on the Thiel blog...

mel said...

Good on you, Brother Bill!

I'm thinking you must be proud.

I'll bet your son plays a mean guitar!

I'm feeling like I've been away from music for too long.
My stereo system is in the basement, as I can't find a good place for it up here.
So, I've listened to a bunch of music on YouTube tonight, on headphones, ranging from the
Grateful Dead to Dio.

Hey for a music fix, today I got a pair of tix for an upcoming Billy Joel concert

Tom Mahon said...

>>>Lots of kids, guitars...<<<

It is much better to see young people enjoying themselves and singing hymns, rather than out on the town causing trouble, which is what too many young people do these days.

If these pleasant looking young people believe in any unsound doctrines, there may still have time to refine them as they grow in understanding.

Sadly, the same can't be said for the majority of those in cog-land who are set in their ways. It would take a miracle for any of them to see the light!

>>>you just know these dudes don't use the purple hymnal!<<<

Dwight Armstrong's seminal opus was composed for a more dignified form of worship; not withstanding its deconstruction by those who prefer Bach's Lutheran chorales, rather than the simple harmonic structure of the purple hymnal. Yet number 78 in the purple hymnal, is one of the greatest hymns ever written.

Gavin said...

No. 78 in the purple hymnal is "He Shall Reign Forevermore!"

To each their own. I liked several of Dwight's ripoffs from the Scottish Psalter - despite their grimy Calvinist/Puritan origins - but that sure wasn't one of them ;-)

Questeruk said...

Gavin said...
Moderation is clearly signaled at the top right of the main blog page.
And please, no whining, pouting, ranting, winging, grizzling and groaning about "freedom of speech." ...

Or censorship! Of course you could try posting a protest on the Thiel blog..."

Hi Gavin, no offense intended. My posting had disappeared - I should have read the 'top right of the main blog page' before firing off my comment.

A lot of the comments had become more the level of the playground - so I am not against temporary moderation, probably it will bring the level of comments up a bit.

Censorship & moderation? Well, even deleting unacceptable comments is a form of censorship. The word has bad connatations, but within defined limits censorship/moderation is not neccessarily a bad thing.

I would suggest that the way you are imposing it is acceptable, and positive.

Questeruk said...

"Lussenheide said...

Such paranoia from so many of you!"

I hope you realise the intent of my ‘Rock Valley Church Watch’ comment.

I felt Weinland Watch was way out of line, seeing Nazi's and 'Armstongists' under every stone (or Rock).

tkach's $wiss banker said...

Hmm, located in the mindless exurban fringes of LA LA Land: A sociological phenomenon not unlike the dreadful HILLSONG in Sydney's endless sprawl.

DennisDiehl said...

I don't think I have ever posted a post quite like this before. I may have in 2001, but this is unique...:)

My chiropractor cohort in whose facility I have my practice adjusted the entire group Def Leppard before their performance in Greenville, couple days ago.

When he is down in the dumbs or has things on his mind, I always tell hime, "You're a chiropractor...you'll adjust."

I asked him if they sang "Blessed and Happy is the Man," "Twas Not a Foe that Did Deride," or "Or Praise Ye the Lordo." He just looked at me. :)

Sadly, and of course, I was subjected to the Tkach course in "How to recognize Devil Music in God's Church,in the '80's. I never personally felt he thought it was all that big a deal but had to be dramatic on the topic.

We then went and watched "Westward Ho the Wagons," "Sound of Music" and later a concert by a braless Helen Reddy who was on drugs during the performance in God's House.

I have since come to love the music of Queen and that one great moment in human history where the little guy, Paul Potts, stormed the world of Opera. I play that youtube video when I want to feel really good!

People who were soaking in Armstrongism can come out of it just fine and have a fine church without everything being a coded message or some devious hangover that need to be scutinized to declare them of God or not. Haven't we had enough of that?

DennisDiehl said...

If you are one of the few who have never seen Paul Potts go into the zone and bring down the house..


One of humanities finest moments!

Steve said...

I have a question for sabbatarians: If circumcision was more of a priority than sabbath-keeping(John 7:21-23), and circumcision is of no value today(Gal. 5:6), then what makes the sabbatarian think that sabbath-keeping has any value? Jesus could have told them that circumcision avails nothing, as He could have told them that sabbath-keeping avails nothing.

Anonymous said...

Agreed Dennis. I'm a big boy who doesn't get emotional easy, but I welled up when I heard that guy.

Anonymous said...

'...No sir, no disconnect here. You aren't saved by keeping the law, but if you don't keep the law you won't keep your salvation because if you love God you'll obey him and if you don't, you don't love God and God won't allow you to rule the nations with a rod of iron if you don't love him...'

I'm sure the 'apostle' Paul pays at least lip service to the Commandments - to at least the last six.

The first four, however, define the One God, setting Him apart from all others. That's the crunch for most folk. Especially the Fearsome 4 - the seventh-day Sabbath.

tkach's $wiss banker said...

To continue looking at this from a sociological POV, I notice there's a call for anyone to attend (and tithe). Is this environmentally wise given the extreme commuting involved in Exurban Los Angeles ?

Look at the address: 32,990 Mesa Drive ! Why don't they use the website to try and save the planet with a message like this: (1)"We only can accept members for our church (social club) from an area within a bicycle ride of the location" and(2)"Americans & Foreigners: Stop coming to California! What's it going to take to make you realize this is unsustainable ?" ($10/g gas, that'll do it).WWJDHHE? (What would Jesus do had he existed ?).

The women on the site's photos have the harried look of extreme commuting-double-income families. While the Leaders have the relaxed Tkach-like look of tithefarmers.

Anonymous said...

Dennis, I hadn't heard about Paul Potts. He is terrific. And then I found out that he performed in my very town on March 19. I missed it!! Oh, well... But Gavin, he is currently touring through Kiwiland. He still has Rotorua and Auckland on April 11 and 13. After that he goes on to Oz. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Potts

Tom M (not Mahon)
Edmonton, Canada

Weinland Watch said...

I posted my comment before Bill's was moderated. Didn't want to seem as though I was intentionally stepping on Bill's toes.

Also my apologies to Bill if you found anything about my comment offensive.

Questeruk said...

“ Steve said...
I have a question for sabbatarians: If circumcision was more of a priority than sabbath-keeping(John 7:21-23), and circumcision is of no value today(Gal. 5:6), then what makes the sabbatarian think that sabbath-keeping has any value? Jesus could have told them that circumcision avails nothing, as He could have told them that sabbath-keeping avails nothing.”

Steve, just what are you talking about? Why don’t you actually read John 7:21-23?

In these verses Jesus is referring to criticism he had received for healing a man on the Sabbath. He points out that they had no problem with circumcision, which was to be carried out on the eighth day after birth, being carried out on the Sabbath. Yet they were critical of Him for doing good by healing on the Sabbath.

The obvious meaning of these verses is that Jesus is saying that just as there is no problem carrying out circumcision on the Sabbath, if it was the eighth day of the baby’s life, likewise there was no problem healing someone on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It was designed to be a blessing.

Doing good to someone, helping someone, is a different scenario to that of carrying on with your normal employment.

You don’t have to be a sabbatarian to understand what is going on in these verses - just read what the Bible says!

Steve said...

Questeruk said...
Steve, just what are you talking about?

MY COMMENT: You obviously missed the point that I was trying to make. Evidently because the Abrahamic covenant came first, circumcision took precedence over the Sabbath. This would hardly have been the case if the Sabbath regulations were, as is sometimes claimed, a creation ordinance. For then the Sabbath regulations would have taken the precedence over circumcision. And if the more important sign has been done away in Christ, why would not the lesser sign also be done away? Christ Himself (and His Spirit) becomes the sign of the New Covenant. (Isa. 7:14; Luke 2:34; 11:30; Rom. 8:9; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

Richard said...

Can't believe all this praise for Paul Potts.

He was such a notorious ruler of Cambodia.

Oh wait....

mel said...

A few more from Paul Potts on YouTube:

Song from debut album

Paul Potts Live In Copenhagen

Royal Variety Performance 2007

Questeruk said...

Steve said...
“You obviously missed the point that I was trying to make. Evidently because the Abrahamic covenant came first, circumcision took precedence over the Sabbath….”

No, I understood the point you were making – however I don’t believe that it is a valid point.

You are suggesting that it’s a case of ‘circumcision taking precedence’ over the Sabbath. That just isn’t true. It’s not a question of precedence. Circumcising on the Sabbath is valid, keeping the Sabbath on the Sabbath is valid. One doesn’t conflict with the other.

Christ was making the additional point that healing on the Sabbath does not conflict with keeping the Sabbath either, in the same way that performing circumcision did not conflict with the Sabbath.

Keeping the Sabbath is not just about restrictions, although it looks like the Jews at Christ's time thought so, as does Steve at this time.

As I said in my previous post – the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Lussenheide said...

Weinland Watch and all:

No problem. In life...timing is everything! ;-)

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Bryan "Trailerhitch" Wagstaff said...

Hey all....thought I would chime in. Bill, thanks for the plug of my ministry, (Trinity Nation MM). For the record and the rest of you. I have attended Rock Valley Church on one occasion but my family has visited on a more frequent basis. We are not members. As my website states, as a ministry, we have no alliance with any specific church or denomination. We encourage all individuals to find their own personal walk with God. No church saves people, Christ does that so, we believe this walk must not be forced and must be personal to be real and meaningful. We are more than happy to plant a seed but the rest is up to the Holy Spirit and Christ.
This having been said, I found the Rock Valley Church to be warm and welcoming. I am surprised to see so much anger and cursing on this blog about this church. I personally am a Sabbatarian but not an ex-member of the defunct WCG. My only comment on the service I attended is, I understand the desire for some for music but there was a little too much for me the one time I attended. I felt like I was at a concert and a sermon broke out. I also understand that I was not the only one in attendance so, live and let live as this is not a salvation issue in my POV. I also understand Bill is happy to refund anyone's admission price. LOL. Regardless, the Pastor gave a riveting sermon. The people of this quaint little church seem to be genuinely wonderful, generous people who I believe truly love the Lord. I have known some of them for a couple of years and consider them fellow Christians and friends even though we do not share a common denomination. I will attend services there again if and when the opportunity presents itself. I encourage others also to give this church a try.
One last comment to the individual that signed on as "anonymous" and ended the comment as the "Apostle Paul". By definition, you can't pick grace. Grace picks you. Following the commandments is not works. It is the key to an appropriate and righteous relationship with God. May God Bless you all and richly reward you!