Ronald Weinland speaketh the prophetic word... hear one of the latest interviews here (with a British radio interviewer who can't quite believe his ears). Elsewhere Weinland reveals that April is the page to mark on your calendar... which means there's not even six months left. Maybe we should all take the opportunity to max out our credit cards before the balloon goes up.
Interesting that Ron, when asked directly if he's going to flee anywhere, explicitly denies it! Do we take it that Weinland isn't going to the "Place of Safety"? And if there's no place of safety, well, what's the point? Or is he just being coy to ensure only the right type of people make it to Petra?
But then, heaven forbid, what if Ron has simply screwed up this whole date-setting thing big time?
No worries, there's plenty of precedent. Here are six strategies Ron can adapt to haul his chestnuts out of the fire.
1. It happened - but not visibly. This is what the SDAs did after 1844, and the Jehovah's Witnesses after 1914. A bit disingenuous, but whatever works, right?
2. It happened - but in an understated way. Remember (if you're an oldie) when Herb proclaimed that 1972's terminus to the 19 year time cycle was marked not by falling H-bombs but a new series of Plain Truth ads in the Reader's Digest? This strategy has the advantage that it was used by the not-so End Time Apostle himself, so already has a kind of imprimatur.
3. Fire Drill. The Eternal was just testing, like the almost-sacrifice of Isaac. At the last moment Yahweh can reveal to Ron that he's decided to press the pause button... everyone "as you were."
4. Oops, the numbers got scrambled. Just let me recalculate... which is what the Millerites did back in the 1840s, providing a further opportunity to get it wrong all over again.
5. I never actually said that, or, I'm not technically a prophet. Not really an option, even though there's Herbal precedent, as Ron did say it and does claim to be a prophet, but hey, folks have short memories (especially if they avoid the Internet.)
6. Playing it safe. It was Ron's commission to preach this even if it didn't happen. This is the Jonah defense (after being fish food he preached Nineveh's destruction and then had the Eternal pull out "plan B" without so much as a beg pardon). This may be Ron's best option. Give it a bit of a twist and you can even make it "prove" that Ron is God's prophet (would a false prophet risk saying nutty stuff like this?)
Yes, Judge Rutherford, Herb, the Two Willies (Miller & Dankenbring) and a whole bunch of others have offered up dates that were disconfirmed, but did that stop them? Heck no! So Ron, don't sweat it; hang tight dude.
How many followers/members/happy tithe-payers Weinland has is impossible to gauge from his website, but it's likely to be minuscule. Nevertheless the 2008 prediction seems to have attracted quite a lot of attention, certainly more than he got ministering in either WCG or UCG, and let's face it, there have to be more than a few feeble-minded suckers paying his bills.
In addition to the end time and COG-PKG websites, the Prophet/First Witness has his own blog at www.ronaldweinland.com, where he reveals that, dear lord, he's going to be here in New Zealand on January 5 (!) before flying across the ditch to "help new people in their beginning stages of growth" in Australia.
PCG Breakaway?
There are reports - though so far few details - that the New Zealand PCG has suffered schism with a former local leader walking away and taking a number of locals with him.
112 comments:
Another tithepayer comes up emtpy:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html
Again, I have to post a relevant excerpt from my unpublished essay, "My Worldwide Church of God Reflections - 1972 In Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?":
Actually, Armstrong himself may have been the real practical joker. When the end of the second 19 year time cycle came to pass and the German attack on America didn’t happen as prophesied, what was Armstrong’s prophetic explanation of January, 1972? Armstrong provides the answer in his January 31, 1972 co-worker letter. Instead of German bombs dropping on America – instead of death, carnage, destruction, mayhem, the fall of America, and the beginning of the great tribulation – Armstrong explains the real prophetic significance of January, 1972 was advertising in Readers Digest!
What? Advertising in Reader’s Digest? A rather anti-climatic event after years of teaching a violent 1972 end time great tribulation message! Was this some kind of joke?
Armstrong writes: “On January 7th, the MOST POWERFUL DOOR in the history of this Work – of 38 years! – suddenly opened. Reader’s Digest opened their advertising pages to us IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES circulation….but, never before was the tremendous U.S. edition open to us”.
Yeah, right! Does anyone really believe Armstrong’s words that Readers Digest U.S. advertising space was not available until January, 1972? This was the same business empire that was one of the largest media purchasers of religious radio and television time. Does anyone really believe that Armstrong couldn’t at anytime advertise in the U.S. edition of Readers Digest given enough extorted member money? I guess Armstrong had to come up with something to explain the prophetic significance of January, 1972, so he reached back to 1953 and decided to orchestrate another Church media accomplishment as the comical prophetic explanation for the end of the second 19 year time cycle.
As I write this retrospective essay more than 30 years since the prophesied great tribulation was to begin, the lasting impressions of the Worldwide Church and
some of its effects have remained with me through the years. As mentioned, it’s been over 30 years since I’ve had any direct contact with the Worldwide Church or its members. I can honestly say it was a very unhealthy experience for me. Through the years, I have had to de-program myself from all the false Worldwide Church teachings. Essentially, if I trace any thought that might be sourced to the Worldwide Church, I have had to learn to discard it. I would like to share some of my observations and reflections about this unhealthy church.
End of Excerpt
Richard
Charlie said...
Another tithepayer comes up emtpy:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosp
Hey Charlie can you repost the complete URL?
One of the possible recoveries that you did not mention is to blame in on the lay membership. I know this was used in the 1972 timeframe, I just don't know if HWA himself used it. Just his underlings maybe. This is all beginning to fade into the past. Maybe someone else can remember.
The substance of the message is that the end of the age would have happened but the church was not ready. Then this rebuke is followed by admonitions to be more zealous and tithe more.
Since the goal is to increase control and increase revenues, this approach is a nice fit. A guilt trip laid on the congregation that leads to more control and more revenue.
My guess is that Weinland will use this one, if not publicly then privately within his closed congregations.
-- Neo
Bamboo, the whole URL is viewable by clicking on the header to the post, then scrolling down. The format lets you see the whole thing.
Sorry, Gavin, but I cannot figure out how to get the full url. I click on the B or charlie or said... and I either collapse the comment or go to Charlie's profile. Any help? Thanks.
Go back to the main blog page, then click on the title of the post. You'll get the single post and all the comments below it. The URL should be visible there.
According to this , Ron has already advertised in Reader's Digest. It's from the Subgenius website, lol!
In the interview I listened to last night , at 01:24:05 into it, Ron says "I already know what my retirement is, it's three and a half days before Christ returns."
huh?
Then, "2008: God's Final Witness, the thousands of books we're sending all over the world- a hundred and forty countries already."
140 countries??? Have people in depressed situations all over the world found a cheap source of kindling for their fires, or a cheap source of insulation for their homes?
BTW, Click here for the CNN article that Charlie mentioned.
I wonder where this guy thinks his visibility is. I wouldn't even know about him if it were not for this and other WCG expatriate blogs and forums. Haven't read Reader's Indigestion for years, and don't know anyone who does. Most of the ACOGs' broadcasts are on the religious ghetto TV stations, and I've got those stations deprogrammed from my remote. I've read in Revelation that when the two witnesses speak, fire comes out of their mouths. Has anyone caught Weinland's broadcast, and can you actually see flames?
I wonder if most of the false prophets believe their own prophecies in the first place. Weinland is different in that he seems to be making non hedging statements affirming his prophecies, but false prophets are more notorious than cats for having multiple lives.
If I were one of the "real" two witnesses, I'd really be urinated off at all the fake ones. Collectively, they'd be making my future job darned near impossible!
BB
Richard said:
>>>Again, I have to post a relevant excerpt from my unpublished essay, "My Worldwide Church of God Reflections - 1972 In Prophecy! God's Practical Joke?":<<<
Methinks it would be best if your unpublished essay remains unpublished, as it is simply a regurgitation of what is already well documented.
However, It might be more helpful to your happy band of scoffers, and perhaps, slightly self effacing for you, if you could publish a new essay on some of mistakes (or should that be, the appalling sins) you have made/committed from 1972 to the present. I wonder how many other scoffers would like join you in this exercise?
2008 ... end of the age? More likely to happen after 2025 (at least that's where my money is). With any lucky I will be long gone before it happens!
It is evident one of the problems of COG theology is that everyone wants to be somewhere else, the future, in their lives. And so it's a life of waiting, hoping, anticipating, watching, speculating and equating the newspaper with the Book of Revelation.
Few think that 100% of all "time is short" spokesman for God have been 100% wrong, 100% of the time over the past 2000 years.
In the meantime, the real present time one has is slipping by.
Tom, in someways you seem almost a caracature of everything people cite as why they no longer want to go to their church. I can't figure out if you are really the mean spirited, judgemental epitomy of the Love of God you portray to us, or just a Christian Cartoon character in some corny "Left Behind" comic.
But some of us learn a lot from you even if not quite what you wish the lesson for us to be.
Tom Mahon,
Thanks. Coming from you, I will take your comment as a compliment. My essay only adds to the body of reflections on the WCG.
My sins and faults since 1972 run the normal spectrum of human experience, not that I have to confess anything to a self righteous pompass "you know what" that you appear to be by your posts. However, I can honestly say I don't make the claims of a self proclaimed prophet or Apostle of God, nor do I terrorize children dragged to an unhealthy church by their parent(s). And, Herbert Armstrong made some mighty big claims!
I remember how Mr. Armstrong use to tell us the story of his life at the Feasts of Tabernacles. I recall how often he would state that as a young man he wanted to be a business success. He wanted to be a captain of industry. He would even repeatedly quote to us at the FOT (for selfish purposes) an unnamed business associate from the 1920s who allegedly stated, "Mr. Armstrong is no ordinary man".
In reality, Mr. Armstrong did eventually find business success in his RCG/WCG. The fact that we are on this website perhaps does speak to the statement, "Mr. Armstrong is no ordinary man". Most business entrepreneurs are not ordinary men as it does take a tremendous amount of time, energy and sacrifice to build a successful business. Unfortunately, in Mr. Armstrong's case, the product of his business (fear religion) eventually did not stand the test of time.
Tom, I am sorry that your God, Mr. Armstrong, does not live up to the marketing hype drilled into your mind about him. If God had been behind Mr. Armstrong and his work of witnessing and warning the world, why so few have ever heard of him or his message? Why was Mr. Armstrong so ineffective in warning the world, if God were behind him?
In truth, Mr. Armstrong carved himself out a niche segment of the fear religion business - and, it became a very profitable niche!
Mr. Armstrong achieved business success in his lifetime, but success without a successor is failure. Today, the business only exists to consume the past wealth obtained during the life of its founder from its many collective former members.
I have coined an expression in honor of Mr. Armstrong that exemplifies his WCG business philosophy - "If you want to dine with the upper classes, you must lie to the masses".
Tom, inspite of all my personal sins and faults, I don't dine with the upper classes, and I don't mass produce big lies for the masses of people to consume hoping a small fraction of them will contribute money to the business to fund an extravagant lifestyle.
Richard
Oh people in the cogs, don't be taken in by this false minister/prophet. Haven't we heard enough false teachings? Remember the scripture in Deut.1.If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
This man has taught lies just like the ones before.Even if these things come to pass,it proves nothing. He is getting his information from the god of this world. Don't follow him!
Richard, are you the Richard that I knew in D.C.?
Richard...it's obvious you're a genuine human being.
"Oh people in the cogs, don't be taken in by this false minister/prophet."
Ok, we won't. Thanks. :)
Others, I am sure, are more quick or reasoned to say that HWA knew exactly what he was doing and it was all a scam.
I have never been able to judge his motives. Perhaps a charismatic type, like Ted turned out to be who , as many a narcissist does, rose to position of influence, even sincerely so.
I know he attracted people who took advantage of him or told him what he wanted to hear, not what he needed to know. Perhaps it all got too comfy to rock the boat.
I don't think I can name a COG mega personality who is not sincerely into their own worldview and their place in it. It's not true. It's not good mental health. It tends to manipulate even if one is not aware ofit. It puts one into denial over the information that doesn't fit the cause. But I am not sure it is a deliberate scam.
In hindsite we see our nutty allegience to we felt was true too but grow through it. These guys never grow through. They admit no new information and just keep banging on the same old drum until they die and someone else picks up the thing and starts banging away again.
Any comments on being sincere even when wrong?
Richard said:
– Armstrong explains the real prophetic significance of January, 1972 was advertising in Readers Digest!
I was a co-jerker at that time, about two years away from joining Worldweird. And I recall that January or February issue with the Man and Monkey on it. I think HwA also tried to throw us a sop about his "spirit in man" revelation to make up for his false prophecy. Or at least his lieutenants made a big deal out of this "new truth."
But once again the old plagiarist was found out. Robert Kuhn published an article on this very topic in 1969. I don't recall the magazine it was in, but I did see Kuhn's article.
As for that whack job Tom here, just ignore the religious boob. He's nuttier than an almond orchard and likes to jag peoples wires just to get a rise out of them. Makes him somehow feel important in his meaningless world.
Gavin,
How do I post links to articles rather than the entire URL so I don't cause problems the next time?
Sorry about that every one! Thanks Mel for posting a link.
To Soothsayer St. Tom; Patron Saint of Self Righteous Bigots:
I'm no different than anyone else on this blog. My sins run the normal course of a typical male and I don't imagine that I have sinned my last sin at age 36. I don't think I need to lay all the sins out there as I did use the word 'typical'.
Get well Tom. Perhaps make a New Year's Resolution... :)
Were it not for this site and other ex-WCG postings, religious deception would still have me in its grasp.
I understand and see more clearly now than ever before. Thanks to everyone. Esp. Dennis, for his posts and ezine articles.
But the question is this: now that we can better discern truth from religious fiction, what do we do with it? We cannot change the world, its thinking or nature, or change the course of history, present or past. Where do we go from here?
Do yourself a favor and watch this video.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2057,The-Pagan-Christ,CBC-TV
Yeah . . . I wish I could do those underlined links too, all my attempts have failed.
Anonymous says,
"But the question is this: now that we can better discern truth from religious fiction, what do we do with it? We cannot change the world, its thinking or nature, or change the course of history, present or past. Where do we go from here?"
Anywhere you want to go, that's the way it is with religious freedom or freedom from religion, your choice.
You can ignore it altogether and just "la la de da" through life or you can do battle with the forces of darkness.
Whatever small contribution you make in posting and making your voice heard just may save someone else from their delusions.
"Where do we go from here?"
Corky is right. Wherever your heart takes you. Since you can't really be anyone but yourself, that's where to go, or maybe rather, that's how to be.
Religion presupposes one is never good enough as is. We have to become perfect like a Heavenly Father is perfect (mature..whatever-no challenge there!), Be like Jesus, Be like Paul, Be like So and So. Anything but yourself. And of course the penalty for not being like the Deity is eternal something or other that hurts and is way out of proportion to the crime. Love Jesus or burn forever in hell pretty well sums it up. Stupid.
Once you get over the idea that we have to pay for, be forgiven of or reconciled to something because of our part in the ficticious properties of Original Sin and such, you are free.
Adam and Eve nor their eternal sins heaped upon us all never existed in space and time. Women don't have to be treated any way by the church because Eve sinned and not the man. It never happened. Neanderthals happened!
The world and religion specifically hates an independent and critical thinker. They can't be controlled, don't give much to the cause and simply refuse to bring the watermelons to the church picnic!
There is a lot of freedom in being able to say:
"I don't know"
"I don't care"
"Is that so?"
"I disagree"
"If you believe that, that's fine with me."
"Bite me" Ok I added that one :)
Someday most we can hope will wake up to the vast difference between religion and spirituality. It won't be a pleasant moment for the Priestcraft.
>>>Do yourself a favor and watch this video.
Watched the video but these discoveries of Tom Harper certainly has not stopped him having faith in Christianity! At the end of the film it still shows him going to church!
Far from turning people away from Christianity Tom Harper concluded, "it has strengthened my faith".
The video is somewhat contradictory in its purpose.
If you believe Christ is a pagan myth from Egypt then certainly you would think that Tom Harper would at least follow his convictions and leave the church!
You didn't expect Tom Harper to give up his livlihood, did you?
He just traded one Madonna for another, that's all. He should throw both in the trash where they belong but, you know, there's that belief in a God thing going on there.
But now, thank God, he realizes that Horus is God ... er, I mean Jesus.
DennisDiehl said...
>>>Tom, in someways you seem almost a caracature of everything people cite as why they no longer want to go to their church.<<<
I am sure this makes sense! I will keep reading it until the meaning comes to me!
>>>But some of us learn a lot from you even if not quite what you wish the lesson for us to be.<<<
The test will come when I set the exam. Then I will try to include some pictures, as some people can't recognise the truth unless they are able to touch it.
"Once you get over the idea that we have to pay for, be forgiven of or reconciled to something because of our part in the ficticious properties of Original Sin and such, you are free."
A beginning of freedom. In my opinion, we are not truly free as long as we reject the TOTAL LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE and cling to the idea that there still may be some supernatural diety in the sky or in the trees. This is still primitive thinking, caveman logic. It's not critical thinking. It's a continuation of the thinking that brought us Jehovah and Allah and Zeus and Isis and Kali.
And for those that want to point out that I can't be a hundred percent certain that a god doesn't exist and in essence, shouldn't we keep an open mind on the subject, I say this: Do you also keep an open mind for flying space vampires? No, of course not. So why give the time of day to the notion that there may be some nebulous spirit out in the deep? Realize that it is the same instinct still alive in the human mind, the instinct to want and create some being greater and higher than us. It is the same instinct that created Jehovah.
Paul
Richard said:
>>>My sins and faults since 1972 run the normal spectrum of human experience,<<<
In that case, it is the height of hypocrisy for you to criticise the sins of others. On the other hand, if your sins had been washed in the blood of Christ, so that God would remember them no more, from such an exalted position of virtue, you would be justified in highlighting the sins of others and calling them to repentance. But you are like a drug addict, being critical of other drug addicts.
Still, I commend you for having the courage to admit your sins. But if you want to make the profitable and life saving transition from self effacement to genuine humility, you should now set fire to your unpublished essay, to prevent it from witnessing against you in the day of judgement.
Sorry, Tom.
Some of us out there enjoy reading Richard's unpublished essays. I think they are particularly well-written and very insightful.
He can easily withstand judgment. It's HWA & Co. that has a lot to be concerned about.
You're right Paul, a person is not truly free until they no longer need someone to tell them what to do, what not to do, what to believe, how to behave etc.
As children, our parents filled this role. Then when we were grown, we turned that role over to the religious "authorities" for some stupid reason.
It's the old "sheep instinct" of following "orders from headquarters" which has to be recognized for what it is, a continued subjection to parental like authority. Some people call it "maturity".
The sheep analogy in the Bible is no accident, that's just the way people are who haven't outgrown the need for parental authority figures.
Some never do mature and can't even decide what shirt to wear today without a wife or mother or somebody else telling them which one to choose.
Just like being in the military, don't think just do what you're told "and the uniform for today is . . ."
Charlie said:
>>>To Soothsayer St. Tom; Patron Saint of Self Righteous Bigots:<<<
A former minister who is now dead, called me a "Self Righteous Bigot." So you are in dangerous company. He also called me, a mad Monk, Living mouth piece, etc.. Sorry, but I can't remember all of the pejorative terms he used.
Anyway, he used to be white-knuckled with rage because he couldn't rebut what I said.
>>>I'm no different than anyone else on this blog. My sins run the normal course of a typical male and I don't imagine that I have sinned my last sin at age 36.<<<
May I respectfully suggest that you speak for yourself. For some of us commit venial sins and are mortified by them, as we seek God's forgiveness and mercy.
But the idea that a Christian can live a life of sin is contrary to Scripture. For Christians who understand the human condition are reassured by, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under law, but under grace"(Roms.6:14).
Therefore, the Christian rejoices in the grace of God, which keep them from sin and death.
"Tom, in someways you seem almost a caracature of everything people cite as why they no longer want to go to their church.<<<
I am sure this makes sense! I will keep reading it until the meaning comes to me!"
That's because to us at AW are given the mysteries of the Kingdom but to you they are not given.
It's in the Bible! I can't believe you never read that.
St. Tom proclaimeth: "On the other hand, if your sins had been washed in the blood of Christ, so that God would remember them no more, from such an exalted position of virtue, you would be justified in highlighting the sins of others and calling them to repentance."
Tell me O Perfect One; Art thou familiar with the term "Braying Jackass"?
St. Tom sayeth: "May I respectfully suggest that you speak for yourself. For some of us commit venial sins and are mortified by them, as we seek God's forgiveness and mercy."
I have Tom, but I am not stupid enough to believe I am now perfect or will never again sin.
As for me being in dangerous company; quite frankly I am tired of your not so thinly veiled threats, so pray all you want for my death Tom and I will continue getting a good night's rest. That minister gave you a very good description of yourself, yet you can't quite seem to understand that you are indeed a "Self-righteous Bigot" and a braying jackass.
Yeah . . . I wish I could do those underlined links too, all my attempts have failed.
just do <a href=http://theurl.com >Click here</a>
Tom:
If you keep hearing the same observations about your way of being, going back years, over and over, would you not take am moment to pause and ask why?
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Dennis>>>"Tom, in someways you seem almost a caracature of everything people cite as why they no longer want to go to their church.<<<
Tom>>>I am sure this makes sense! I will keep reading it until the meaning comes to me!"<<<
Anon>>>That's because to us at AW are given the mysteries of the Kingdom but to you they are not given.<<<
Although this is not true, I fell about laughing.-:)
Well, that certainly came out rather strange.
Ron Weinland in NZ on 5-01-2008.
I wonder if any of my rellies in Portland,Oregon heard him late this month?
I note that Ron Weinland has a Rotorua address. I wonder who the contact in Rotorua could be?
I could take a guess.
Seamus
It's Gavin isn't it Seamus! :)
Dennis,
Thank you for your kind words in your earlier post.
Your question about sincerity when wrong is very difficult to answer. I believe there was a mixture of sincerity and a desire for business success that motivated Herbert W. Armstrong in his early ministry. It is my personal belief that Herbert Armstrong started out with simultaneous sincerity along with the motivation for money. Remember his references about God bringing him down to poverty during those early years at the start of his ministry.
Additionally, think about the times during Armstrong's earlier life that made a lasting impression on him and influenced his thinking - the "Roaring 20s", the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl years of the 1930s, World War II in the late 1930s/1940s, and the creation of the United Nations (UN).
To provide anecdotal evidence to the "mixture of sincerity and a desire for business success", there are lingering hearsay discussion that I remember from long ago. It reports Herbert Armstrong, after pitching a home improvement project to an Adventist minister during the start of the Great Depression and being very impressed that the Adventist minister had money, came home and announced to Loma that he had just found the new family business. And, that is when he began piecing together his new religious business, although HWA always told us that it began with Loma's Sabbath challenge (which probably happened at the very same time).
I believe Herbert Armstrong wanted to be a business success as he always told us at Feasts of Tabernacles. I believe somewhere along the way, probably in the 1950s after the move to Pasadena, he got very caught up in himself and began truly believing he was God's end time Apostle and head of the only true church.
(Note to those that deify Herbert Armstrong's Church as the one and only true Church - prior to the Pasadena move, he did not believe his Church was the ONLY true Church. Otherwise, how do you explain his baptism by a Baptist minister as being valid, and his allowance of his scattered members to attend the Church of God, Seventh Day as late as the 1950s).
I believe power and money does corrupt!
I believe business success changed Herbert Armstrong from what he started out as. I believe by the time I was attending the WCG (1968 - 1976), the business organization was a very corrupt church organization riddled with theft, error and the constant extortion of church members' money with the threat of eternal damnation if members did not give all to the Church (similar to Dave Pack's extortion tactics today).
I believe the demands for money throughout Armstrong's ministry are well documented when one reads HW Armstrong's co-worker letters written throughout the various decades. The message is always the same - Time is short, and send more money into HQ.
I believe one can be sincere, but also sincerely wrong.
I believe it is contrary to the Armstrong thinking to admit error, mistake and outright deceit, and to be open to new and different ideas and interpretations that might be just as valid though conflicting with the Armstrong worldview. Therefore, there is the continuous broken record of failed end time prophetic scenarios as this latest Armstrong clone, Ron Weinland self proclaimed prophet, will soon be shown to be.
Richard
Tom Mahon,
In response, perhaps Dan Akyrod said it best in comedy response to Jane Curtin on Saturday Night Live's skit play on Point Counterpoint:
"Jane, you ignorant slut".
Lighten up Tom. Don't take yourself so seriously.
Richard :)
Thank you Richard for your response. That was very thoughtful and I agree. I just realized today that what I ALWAYS knew as the Worldwide Church of God had changed it name from Radio Church of God a mere five months before I went to college. I never knew that. I thought the Radio Church change was long before I came there.
Loma died the year before and so now I realize in hindsite that I came at a time when WCG was having it's heyday successes with GTA at his prime and the world seemingly going to hell in a handbasket (Middle eastern wars, yom kippur, six day, assassinations etc) It was a time that seemed ripe for religious prophecy. The church grew accordingly.
My time at AC saw new building that spoke to me of not really thinking the end was all that near. How you build a "house for God" which is a ridiculous concept and let Gerald Waterhouse go around spooking people with fleeing and Petra tales.
HWA was not a man given to correction or being told he mispoke. I NEVER heard Him or GTA ever apologize to anyone for anything. Of course, I have yet to hear Joe Jr. choke on an apology either.
So often, in hindsite, I had doubts or at least dismissed comments by HWA and GTA, because I never felt anyone could be all right about all things. Sometimes I would tell myself that something GTA said about evolution or HWA's comments on Satan not being able to reproduce along with dinosaurs which were of "satan's world", were just plain stupid. I always had a difficult time with the unquestioned loyalty others had for anything they spoke.
I hated the concept of "headquarters says.." I had a persona rule in the ministry of my own churches. "Ask and you shall not have, do not ask and all things are possible." Worked for me. I called Joe Tkach ONCE to ask a sincere question about HWA getting divorced and he yelled back over the phone "Squelch it". Of course, what I was asking was true. Never called to ask anything again. Just did what I wanted.
I had an "assistant" who called about a member having or not having to clean a store of leavening during UB. I told the member to not worry about it. It was a home thing and only an object lesson. The assistant called Joe Tkach for "clarification" behind my back. Joe said to close the store. I told the member to ignore that. The assistant is now a UCG minister who tends to get criticised for similar judgements. People don't change.
Ok, don't get me started on my own perspectives.
I think HWA was motivated by insecurity and perhaps narcissism which few knew anything about back then. It is a hallmark of religious loons that mislead people with their specialness. When you see yourself in the Bible, time to call a counselor.
Dennis,
I agree with your observations!
And, you make a very good point that I didn't mention earlier. Herbert Armstrong's church was The Radio Church of God for many years until the late 1960s. It was a mass media oriented Church, the growth and reach of which required tons of money. As a business entrepreneur, Herbert Armstrong was a pioneer in religious broadcasting.
Also, as a clarification to my last message that Herbert Armstrong did not believe his Church was not the ONLY true church prior to the Pasadena move, it was only after Armstrong began publishing his autobiography in the 1960s that he stated that he was searching for the one true church in his earlier years. I believe this to be a bit of self serving revisionist history that Armstrong himself created in retrospect to solidify his stature as God's End Time Apostle.
Richard
Cincint,
It is very possible that I am the very same Richard in D.C. that you may remember. I am Washington, D.C. area based even to this day.
As background, here is another excerpt from my unpublished essay, "My Worldwide Church of God Reflections - 1972 in Prophecy! God's practical Joke?":
Background
Many years have now passed since I stopped attending the Worldwide Church of God (I now refer to Armstrong’s multimillion dollar business empire as the Worldwide Church of Fraud). I’ve had virtually no contact with the Church or its members in almost 30 years. Yet, the impressions of this religious experience remain with me. This retrospective essay is written based on my own personal experiences, my handwritten Sabbath Service notes and several of Herbert Armstrong’s Co-Worker letters.
Recently, I rediscovered some old boxes while cleaning out a closet in my home. In those boxes, I found old Herbert Armstrong co-worker letters and my Sabbath Services sermon notebooks. To read the sermon notes and Armstrong’s letters almost 40 years later is quite amusing. Some statements made by “God’s ministers” are now very laughable. It is also quite shocking as they record an unhealthy church that was quite manipulative and greedy in nature.
As an introduction, my earliest memories of Herbert Armstrong are found in my grandfather’s old farmhouse in Iowa in the early 1960s. We would take our annual summer vacation to visit our family in Iowa. I have an early childhood memory of my grandpa sitting in the kitchen listening to Armstrong on the radio, no doubt over 50,000 watt KXEL originating from nearby Waterloo, Iowa. I must have been about 7 years old at the time. My grandfather had been a subscriber to the Plain Truth magazine since the early 1950s.
In the 1960s, we listened to Garner Ted Armstrong on local religious station WBMD in Baltimore, Maryland, and in the evenings on the 50,000 watt powerhouse WWVA from Wheeling, West Virginia. The broadcast could also be heard on Sunday evenings from WRVA, Richmond, Virginia. My mother subscribed to the magazine and enrolled in the Bible Correspondence Course for 5 years before she became aware that there was an actual Church behind the broadcast and the magazine. In 1968, our ministers were Ken Westby and Tom Williams.
My church notebook records my first services to be in 1968. Mr. Bruce Nedrow gave the sermonette on “Avoiding Post Feast Doldrums”. The sermon was given by visiting minister Milo Wilcox on the subject, “Why Don’t We Have Biblical Articles in the Plain Truth Magazine?” Oddly, I must have missed the point as my sermon notes don’t provide an answer to the sermon question. Worthy of note, however, is Mr. Wilcox quoted as saying, “The Vice President has heard the broadcast”. Based on the date, the U.S. Vice President being referred to had to be Presidential candidate Hubert Humphrey. How he knew Vice President Humphrey had heard the broadcast is unknown, but statements like this were no doubt made to re-enforce Armstrong’s importance and credibility in members’ minds.
Similar statements about important people who knew of “The Work” are found later in my Sabbath Service notes. On January 31, 1970, Mr. Westby gave a sermon on the “The Work” in which he made the following statements:
· “Senator Edmund Muskie flew from Boston to Washington with Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong. He knew about our work and what Ambassador College is doing”.
· “We know as a fact that President Nixon and Vice President Agnew have heard and know about us.”
· While Mr.Westby was at the Ministerial Conference, the President of Metromedia Television was touring the College.
· “A top official of Belgium was at Ambassador College”
· “When the Rohan case came up, Israel leaders wanted to know about us, so Mr. Armstrong wrote two letters to the leaders. Now the leaders regard Mr. Armstrong as a prophet.”
In December, 1968, I received my first doses of traveling evangelist Gerald Waterhouse. At a bible study on December 4, I learned World Tomorrow prophecies such as “Job will straighten out the cities” and “Noah will take the job of solving the race problems”. On December 7 (a date that shall live in Worldwide Church infamy), we had a combined church service with other churches at a dark and dingy old rental hall on Eastern Avenue in Baltimore. Reading my sermon notes from this occasion over 30 years later reveal a manipulative message that I now realize was intended to extend control over the peoples’ minds. Waterhouse preaches “God’s people are different from society. The only way you can be out of a society is for God to take you out….God has to take us to a place (of safety) to mold us into the right society”. Waterhouse later preaches, “There will be no rebels in the World Tomorrow. By the end of the work, all the people who stayed loyal will be taken to a place of safety”.
These were the beginnings of an eight year period of my life which I attended the Worldwide Church of God with my family. During that time, since its local churches did not own their own buildings, I received quite a tour of local rental halls and school buildings in the Washington/Baltimore area. In the early 1970s, the Baltimore Church met at Westview Cinema on Route 40. This meeting place was quite unique for the Worldwide Church because it was a nice large twin movie house with very plush comfortable seating. My recollection of the Baltimore Church was an attendance of about 600 people at the time.
When I look back on my Worldwide Church experience, after years of brainwashing, I never dreamed in 1970 that I would someday live to be 20, 30, 40 or 50 years old or more. It was so drilled into my mind by the Church that “time was very short” and “the end was very near”. I never ever dreamed that I had a future to live in this life, and subconsciously deferred life experiences, even after I stopped attending the church, because I believed time was very short!
End of Excerpt
Richard
I wonder if Tricky Dicky and Spiro knew about GTA from watching Hee Haw?
LOL
BB
That all sounds very familiar Richard!
I have absolutely nothing left on paper from WCG including my sermons. I sat down, looked at it all and threw it out. Every bit of it. Sermons, tapes, letters, envoys...all of it. It was my symbolic ending.
I thought I was supposed to save my handwritten sermons for my kids to remember dad, but I didn't want them to have it. That's not me anymore. So it's all gone. I will give them Eckart Tolle's The Power of Now instead and maybe a copy of Paul the Mythmaker.
Tom saith,
However, It might be more helpful to your happy band of scoffers, and perhaps, slightly self effacing for you, if you could publish a new essay on some of mistakes (or should that be, the appalling sins) you have made/committed from 1972 to the present. I wonder how many other scoffers would like join you in this exercise?............
Ok I'm game! Where do I send it when done?
Tom saith,
A former minister who is now dead, called me a "Self Righteous Bigot." So you are in dangerous company.
So are you now Terry Ratsmann now?
Richard:
I believe you should write your essay and make it available. Essays such as yours will document the destructive effect that Armstrongism has had on the people who were snared by it. Tom is, in a different way, such a testimony. You can understand why Armstrongites do not want this kind of documentation to be written.
But I would take care in relating factual information. If you get the facts surrounding the Reader's Digest situation wrong, you will be taken to task for it and your credibility challenged.
I have heard about the RD situation in 972, that the response to the RD advertisements were tepid and in no way did it warrant being escalated to prophetic watershed.
I also recall that a man who stood against the WCG's advertising in RD had a heart attack and this permitted the advertising to happen. Much was made of this in Big Sandy. But this is all recollection clouded by time.
I have no idea where you would go to get good historical information on this.
-- Neo
KScribe said:
"Ok I'm game! Where do I send it when done?"
oh man, time would fail me! Being a minister is one of the most unfair things that anyone could do to a guy. Just about the time I became perfect...splat...it got messy :)
gutsy topic, not for the fainthearted. The religious usually end up with a split personality. The one they want you to see and the one they pray to God no one sees. Pretty typical actually
Neo,
I specifically remember sitting in a Friday nite study in January of 72 listening to HWA go on about Reader's Digest being what door God was opening to the Work and all the stupendous meaning behind it....and that it meant we had MORE TIME!
Well whew on that! Now we don't have to tear down the just completed House for God!
specfif...spesific....specifica....
distinctly....:)
Neo,
Thanks for the advice and the kind words.
I am quoting HWA himself excerpted from his January 31, 1972 co-worker letter, of which I have my copy (although I am tempted to do what Dennis suggests and trash everything WCG related).
Armstrong writes in his January 31, 1972 co-worker letter: “On January 7th, the MOST POWERFUL DOOR in the history of this Work – of 38 years! – suddenly opened. Reader’s Digest opened their advertising pages to us IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES circulation….but, never before was the tremendous U.S. edition open to us”.
So, there is a precedent as related in Gavin's point number 2 for this Armstrong clone Weinland to use when his prophecy fails.
As an aside Dennis, my brother was a local church elder, and he has long since done the exact same thing that you have done. He has trashed everything WCG related - old sermon notes, booklets, old PTs & GNs, etc.
Richard
Dennis said...
The religious usually end up with a split personality. The one they want you to see and the one they pray to God no one sees. Pretty typical actually....................
No crap! Some of the so called brethren I "worshiped" with thought some weird stuff. One guy loved his old car so much he told me that angels would fly him to that fictional place of safety while he was behind the wheel!!! Talk about some deranged people! Gee, why did I not take the hint and realize my time in the church of herbert was time spent in an insane asylum? Well,I guess it is just plain stupidity!! No doubt!!!
But I will thank the false apostate apostle for one thing. He removed the concept of the Jesus based Christianity from my mind and replaced it with atheistism. I no longer worry if I am pleasing God. I am pleased to live my life with the morals I adopted (do no harm to others) and basically live better than any wcg member ever did while I was in the cult! Do I sin? No. Sin is the power of the priest over you. I do not give them permission to judge or rule over me.
So in conclusion, if I am wrong and herbie's mouth piece is right, gauud will not have to throw me in the lake of fire. I WILL JUMP IN HEAD FIRST!!!
Who the hell needs an eternity with a deranged gauud?? Then there is the issue of "Saith Tom!" Shall I have to speakest moreith????
To set this up properly for our friends overseas, here in the USA, the Federal Communications Commission allows prescription medicines to be advertised on television. The only requirement is that the announcer mustlist possible side effects. This often requires as much as 15 seconds, possibly 1/4 of the commercial's duration.
I can just imagine what might happen if religious hucksters were required to do the same! It might sound something like this:
CAUTION!!! Armstrongism should only be practiced under the advice and care of your psychiatrist. If you own firearms you should seriously consider other religious options. Do not take if you suffer from alcoholism, or advanced liver disease! If you notice any adverse symptoms, please discontinue use or consult with your healthcare professional. Possible symptoms include psychosis, poverty, inferiority complex, stomach ulcers, diarrhea, constipation, vomiting, headaches, paranoia, depression, panic reactions, impotence, premature ejaculation, halitosis, body odor, and gas! Death or suicide may occur in extreme cases.
Oh well. The symptoms probably don't scare people away from Zyrtec, so why would we expect this to be any more effective with religion?
BB
Richard,
Most interesting.
Why don't you further elaborate your essay a bit and email it to the Painful Truth?
I think the PT would be most interested in publishing an account of your WCG experiences.
DennisDiehl said...
"Ask and you shall not have, do not ask and all things are possible." Worked for me.
My old supervisor in the WCG data processing department put it this way.....
"...tis far easier to get forgiveness for a good idea you've completed than it is permission to start it!"
We had a cubical wall devoted to various aphorisms that we came across. We called it, of course, the wall-o-wisdom. You had to go to a bit of effort to find it, it was easily visible to average person passing through.
As a kid growing up in the WCG we learned never tell the preacher anything. They keep lists and records. And they weren't above telling some poor soul's sins before the entire congregation on any given Saturday. Kids notice that kind of thing. We treated them like the predators they were.
They labeled us "2nd Generation Christians who lacked real zeal". We were not fools.
I remember the first time I heard about Catholic priests keeping parishioners confessions confidential, I marveled at how such a thing could be and why the WCG didn't exceed what the Catholics do if we were the TRUE church?
KSCRIBE said.....
I am pleased to live my life with the morals I adopted (do no harm to others) and basically live better than any wcg member ever did while I was in the cult! Do I sin? No. Sin is the power of the priest over you. I do not give them permission to judge or rule over me.
For an atheist you understand a hell of a lot about scripture.
1 Corinthians 15:56 (Young's Literal Translation)
.....the sting of the death [is] the sin, and the power of the sin the law.....
«especially for those self-appointed ones who claim to enforce it»
Why is it you can see the obvious yet Tom can't?
Thanks Richard for sharing some of your personal WCG-related history with us.
When you mentioned meeting in the theater with the plush seats, it took me back.
During the time I was growing up in the WCG, the theater we were meeting in showed an X rated movie.
Ha!
Deacons came in early, well before services, and covered the posters and signs inside the theater that related to the movie. But the funny thing was that the marquee outside, above the entrance, never got covered, so we all walked into church under a big marquee that had the X-rated movie's name plus the X rating posted on it!
To true believers, they may think that building is "where God placed his name"
Ironically, if God was behind "any-port-in-the-storm" GTA, or "daughter-raper" HWA, it might make those true believers right.
Oh, what a nutty "church" that was!
And, thinking back on all the crazy things that transpired there just affirms the "nutty" description.
~Mel
PS: I think Tom likes us. Otherwise, he'd be spending his time with people more convertible.
Kscribe:
The only person I ever encountered with a car taking them to the place of safety was a woman who first practiced trying to resurrect chickens, which didn't work but got her a visit from the minister who took me along to care for her baby while he talked with here.
A few weeks later when I was back in LA, I read the rest of the story. She was unsuccessful resurrecting the baby either so was found sitting on a mountain in her car, with the baby, waiting for Jesus.
The mentally ill are in all groups, but this was a tough experience for a 21 year old kid to fathom.
I remember you and the events you described well Richard. You were a young teen ager then as I remember.I knew and admired Jane and her family.
I was a single mom, I had 2 teen age boys, and 2 little girls. I left the D.C. area when my boys were accepted to A.C. and came back to my home state Cincinnati OH.
I don't usually write much about my past church experiences, but since this posting is about Weinland, I had to make some comments. Weinland came to this area as a ministerial assistant, I knew him. I have several close friends who stayed with him. I heard several of his sermons. As I stated before, he rants, raves, and hollers a lot. Almost frantic.
I came in contact with United also, even worked for them when they started here. I am no longer with any church, I am almost 80 years old, and I feel like I have been through the whole gamut. But I am not only older, but wiser.
Neotherm said :
I have no idea where you would go to get good historical information on this [Reader's Digest Ads].
Sometime ago a friend sent me a zip file of the entire collection of HwA's co-jerker letters, which I have on disk. I did a search on them with the term "Reader's Digest." Well, what a surprise! I got at least three dozen hits on this phrase, with the first one dating from November 17, 1954 :
This hour, now, is our DANGER hour! Once again we face the
supreme CRISIS. How you---ALL of you---respond to this letter will
determine whether, after all these years of growth and progress,
this greatest work on earth must now STOP, or whether it is now to
take still another LEAP FORWARD! God is now opening NEW DOORS for
thundering HIS MESSAGE to the world, and He expects us to follow
where He leads. But we are unable to take advantage of these
opportunities or start thru these doors, because of lack of money.
If we had the money we could now---very soon, in all probability
put God's Message on the great super-power WLS, Chicago, at the
BEST hour, 8:30 every night but Saturday, the year around! THINK
of it! THAT is probably the most valuable station, for us, in all
the United States---and THE DOOR IS OPEN! But we cannot go ahead
---because of lack of money. We have plans to send out God's
Message for this hour by using space ordinarily used for
advertising, in many of the nation's leading farm journals, and
other such magazines. LACK OF MONEY PREVENTS, altho God has opened the door! The largest circulation of any magazine on earth is the Reader's Digest. It circulates ALL OVER THE WORLD, and is published in some 15 different languages. In all other nations
except the United States, they accept advertising. And our
advertising agent had informed me that THEY HAVE OPENED THE DOOR to
us, to permit us to use space ordinarily used for commercial
advertising, to PROCLAIM GOD'S MESSAGE around the world! Jesus
said, (Mark 13:10-A.V.) that HIS Gospel of the KINGDOM OF GOD must
be PUBLISHED to all nations, as well as PREACHED (Mat. 24:14). God
is opening these great and mighty doors! Are we Co-Workers going
to be "dull of hearing," and asleep to the DANGER, and the glorious opportunities---OR ARE WE GOING TO SPRING TO ACTION WITH A PASSION, WITH ZEAL, WITH OUR WHOLE HEARTS, AND OUR PRAYERS AND OUR MONEY?
HwA's final mention of this ad campaign seems to have been on February 8, 1981. So, his sop thrown to us in light of his January 1972 failure seems to be bogus. But I guess nobody was keeping score then. And, with no Internet around, who really could?
HTH
DennisDiehl said...
>>>I have absolutely nothing left on paper from WCG including my sermons. I sat down, looked at it all and threw it out. Every bit of it. Sermons, tapes, letters, envoys...all of it. It was my symbolic ending.<<<
The end for you was more than symbolic. It was a complete plunge into total darkness.
Mel said:
>>>PS: I think Tom likes us. Otherwise, he'd be spending his time with people more convertible.<<<
I don't dislike anyone. I visit this blog mainly for two reasons. One, it is stimulus for me to redefine and confirm my faith, and two, it in some small way helps me to appreciate, for it is difficult to understand, the mystery of iniquity.
I addition, I am immensely greatful to God for protecting me and my dear wife from the prophesied falling way, when it came.
It is an interesting paradox, that even the wicked, when they see their fate, don't wish the same for others who are as wicked as the were. Hence, when the rich man lifted up in head in hell, and found himself being tormented by the flames, and was told that a gulf was fixed between him and Lazarus, he said: "I pray the, therefore, father, that thou would send him to my father's house: For I have five brothers; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
So in even torment, the rich man dreaded the same fate for his brothers. But, sadly, he was told: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
However, although I can do anything about it, it deeply saddens me to know your fate.
Good Morning Saint Tom!
I'm still here, alive and kicking! When exactly will I go the way of the dodo? It would be helpful for me to inform my wife of my impending demise.
Your faith must be weak and you are not sacrificing enough for the work! The fact that I am still breathing is proof of your lukewarm zeal! God is not hearing your prayer! Fast now and sacrifice as never before! Be prepared to reduce your standard of living! Will you heed this call?
Seriously Tom. Wake up. Dennis gave you some very good advice a couple of days ago. Get....counseling....now.
Saint Tom Lamenteth: "However, although I can do anything about it, it deeply saddens me to know your fate."
>Crocodile Tears<
Behold, you are all doomed to eternal torment in a torture chamber that Jesus created if you don't believe as Tom Mahon does! Behold the rich man has been tormented for almost 2000 years, since that was how long ago the message was written.
His crime: being rich and not giving it all to Judas for the purse he carried on Jesus's behalf, and sharing his leftovers with a beggar instead of giving it all to the beggar. How selfish!
A very just eternal punishment for such a finite flaw!!
Behold! He wasn't even warned, just the surprise of discovering that he is now in eternal hell!!! Oh, and I am so loving of a God I would't let his 5 brothers know what I expected of them either, or the fate I have predestined them to..
Muahahahahaha!!! I don't have to be fair and just... I am Tom Mahon's God!!! Muahahahahaha!!!
I don't feed the hungry, but I will eternaly torture you if you fail to feed them all!!!! Muahahahahaha!!!!
What was that Satan? You want to see how truly faithful Tom Mahon is?? Okay!! Thus saith the Lord: Go for it Satan!!! Muahahahaha!!!!
And get this Satan... He doesn't realize that he is predestined to eternal torture for being self righteous and pompous, plus he failed to send his tithes and offerings to my only true representative on earth, and used his imagination too much.
For that he shall pay the eternal price!!!
I have spoken!
As many of you might know, virtually 100% of Church of God members, both independent and corporate, consider Ron Weinland a nut.
I am fairly certain that most of you have not "checked out" Weinland. Why would you check out a nut, right?
I have checked him out. My wife and I, and our adult son, spoke with him for 3 hours a few months before the last Feast.
I have spoken with several ministers in United about him. All of them believe he has "lost it." One of the United ministers knew him well and stated he was a very sincere man.
I have listened to most of his radio interviews and some of his sermons. He comes across as very credible in the radio interviews----if one has an impartial mind concerning him, which most, especially religious people, do not. I'm not saying he is not credible in his sermons, just that the radio interviews have more persuasive impact concerning who he claims to be.
I am not convinced he is who he says he is.
However, there are a few points any honest person might consider.
1. He has clearly gone "way out on a limb" by saying the Tribulation will start in April 2008. He is not saying it will start 2 years or 5 years from now. He is saying 4 months from now. The April date comes from 3 1/2 years before Trumpets 2011. Church of God believes Christ will return on Trumpets.
2. He has said, numerous times, if the Tribulation does not start in April, the only conclusion--- he is a false prophet. He leaves himself no wiggle room.
3.He has made a "vague reference" to something very significant happening in Jan. 2008. I'm not sure if he is referring to the 7 thunders spoken of in Rev. or some major international event. He believes the 7 thunders will be fulfilled with a number of well known ministers in the Church of God dying. He names Meredith, Ames, Ritenbaugh, and implies Flurry and a number of others. He claims these "thunders" will happen over a number of months but indicates all in 2008, I believe.
I suppose, if anyone responds to my post, this vague reference will be the point jumped on. However, the point about the ministers dying is not vague. Again, it is a prediction that is quite specific, although happening over several months.
He clearly states there is no "place of safety."
He clearly states he knows people will not take him seriously and will consider him a nut.
He says the purpose for his books and trying to get the message out is so when the Tribulation starts people will know where to go for some answers.
My comment: There will be a number of religious people,(including, I'm fairly certain, some in the Church of God) after the Tribulation starts, that will claim to the the 2 witnesses. This will be after the fact. He is making a specific prediction before it happens. He has said no one could do this unless God was behind the prediction. I would have to agree. Some are saying it might just be a good guess on his part. This, in my opinion, is simply not being honest, but our minds can convince of anything.
So, we will see. If the start of the Tribulation is not clearly apparent (my understanding is several cities in the United States are nuked) sometime in April, a short 4 months from now, Ron Weinland is a false prophet.
But---if it happens????
And one thing is certain. You and I are not sure about this one way or the other.
Jim
bamboo said...
Why is it you can see the obvious yet Tom can't?
Jesus never spit and slapped mud in his eyes in order to open them!
Tom is a blind self-righteous character who lives in a fantasy world of gods and curses. Sounds a bit like a Harry Potter film!
Tom saith...
But if you want to make the profitable and life saving transition from self effacement to genuine humility, you should now set fire to your unpublished essay...
Book burnings in order to suppress freedom of speech and thought. Sounds like Tom may be a Nazi! Tom were you a Young Ambassador?
>>>But---if it happens????
Jim,
The reason why it will not happen is because it is too soon, certain things need to fall in place before the end comes.
1. Building of a Third Temple
2. Beginning and ending of animal sacrifices.
The scripture makes it clear that when we see the "abomination of desolation" know for sure the end is approaching rapidly!
Also as an interesting sideline, the Prophecy of Malachy considers Pope Ratzinger to be the second last pope. The next Pope is considered by many in the Roman Catholic church to be the final, referred to as "Peter the Roman". Some sources suggest Ratzinger is only intended to reign a short while (possibly 15 years).
The great tribulation of the Olivet discourse in Mark 13, Matt. 24 and Luke 21 is the great tribulation of 66-70 AD.
It was about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This important "prophecy" was not included in the gospel of (ha-ha) John because it had already happened many decades before the gospel of John was written and everyone knew it.
Actually, there is nothing left in the Bible to be fulfilled because immediately after the tribulation was supposed to be the return of Christ, the resurrection and judgment and the establishment of the kingdom - it just didn't happen, that's all.
Then, when it didn't happen we got our first apologetic - 2 Peter.
Well Peter, oh mighty cult guru, where is the promise of his coming? You bunch of liars, we're going out and start our own church.
Cheers,
Arius
>>>All of them believe he has "lost it."
Keep focusing on the doom and gloom ahead, writing about endless tales of "tears and woe" to inflict a rebellious nation then is it any wonder why he has lost the plot?
The book of proverbs sums up very nicely what we should be doing: :Fear God and to keep His commandments.
We should be spending the remaining years of our lives serving God and our neighbours. Looking after the widows, fatherless, visiting those in prison etc.
Not speculating in end time events when no-one can be certain how events will ever play out.
Sometimes people just want to be important and recognised by others. He doesn't understand the role of the two witnesses. It is NOT a mission that anyone would want to do "inflicting" terrible suffering on the masses because they do not heed God's warning. They will be the most hated person on the earth!
And then to be violently murdered, with the possibility that the body will be abused lying in the street for 3 and half days, isn't exactly an easy ministry!
Whoever fills the shoes of the two witnesses will be the "least" likely person (just as King David was the least favoured person in his day). They will not know their calling until the time comes for God to reveal it to them (at the beginning of the ministry).
We will all recognise this person when the time comes because their ministry will be filled with signs and wonders. It is likely that they will be working from Jerusalem as their dead bodies will lie in the place "where also our Lord is crucified" (Rev 11:8).
If the end is to happen within the next 50 years then the two witnesses are probably alive right now on the earth (however none of us will know who they are until they begin their ministry).
Robert says:
"The reason why it will not happen is because it is too soon, certain things need to fall in place before the end comes.
1. Building of a Third Temple
Good luck
2. Beginning and ending of animal sacrifices.
Good luck
"The scripture makes it clear that when we see the "abomination of desolation" know for sure the end is approaching rapidly!"
No, the scripture made it clear of an "abomination of desolation" in the past
"Also as an interesting sideline, the Prophecy of Malachy considers Pope Ratzinger to be the second last pope."
I'm pretty sure Malachi (Or is there some other prophecy of Malachy?) does not contain any prophecy on Mr. Ratzinger.
"The next Pope is considered by many in the Roman Catholic church to be the final, referred to as "Peter the Roman". Some sources suggest Ratzinger is only intended to reign a short while (possibly 15 years)."
EVERY POPE IN MY LIFETIME has been called, 'the second last Pope' with "Peter" being the last. It's like being in the gun lap when you just flat run out of Popes.
Like they know.
I believe we are Tom's narcissistic supply
You can read about the two witnesses in Josephus - they are not Christians as you think they are but their bodies were left in the street for over 3 days.
"I believe we are Tom's narcissistic supply"
If that is so, then the trick is to ignore the judgements and self righteous prattel and dry up the source.
Stingerski said...
Sometime ago a friend sent me a zip file of the entire collection of HwA's co-jerker letters, which I have on disk.
Could you be so kind as to forward me a copy of that file to me via Gavin? I'd like to have those for my archive.
Thanks in advance!
Biker Bob,
I rolled over laughing when I read your Armstrongism disclosure. To add to it, taken from a male potency pill commercial,
"If you have an erection lasting more than 6 hours, see a physician immediately and then consider yourself to be televangelist material".
Richard
For some of us commit venial sins
Uh, oh! A near Catholic wannabe! Jared?!
I believe we are Tom's narcissistic supply
Ah, but the good thing is, when he finally dumps us in the third phase (abandonment) it won't bother us and we won't come crawling back to him to continue to be his narcissistic source, since we won't miss his abuse.
Tom were you a Young Ambassador?
Nope. Moreover, he wasn't much of anything at all... ever.
The end for you was more than symbolic. It was a complete plunge into total darkness.
As opposed to someone in total darkness and doesn't realize it because he's never seen the light.
For both of them, the pair:
Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
In Scripture, it is Satan the Devil who wants torture, desolation, Great Tribulation. In fact, apparently, the Great Tribulation is of Satan's doing, not God's, for God reserves the day of the Lord for Himself. The Weinlands and Toms of the world want evil to come and gloat about how others will suffer and they will themselves escape -- who concentrate, like some very sick mentally ill person, upon the evils and misdeeds of others and destruction, devastation, death, disease. They just love to judge others and place burdens on them.
Soothsayer St. Tom; Patron Saint of Self Righteous Bigots
He stands alone by himself, holier than thou and reeks of self-righteousness that even God won't want Him, and, in the end, neither will Satan, for it's just too much competition... and Satan is so much better at it.
To speak of mercy, compassion, empathy is wasted, since he obviously wouldn't understand one word of it and views people who engage in it as being weak, an opportunity to make a prey of those who turn from evil. The only thing such people will respond to is superior force, being vain in their own conceits.
When both the godly and the ungodly collaborate to come to a consensus about the wickedness and evil of one man, it should be clear that it's real trouble. It's clear that God will not ignore the cries of the righteous very long for being lied to, lied about and being abused.
However, It might be more helpful to your happy band of scoffers, and perhaps, slightly self effacing for you, if you could publish a new essay on some of mistakes (or should that be, the appalling sins) you have made/committed from 1972 to the present.
Tom first. Full disclosure. Would he risk prison? Or would the Child Protective Services want to step in?
Cincint,
Thanks for the kind words about my family. I am about 90% sure I know who you are too. Does the word "Kettering" mean anything to you? We admired your family as well if you are who I think you are.
Isn't the internet an amazing thing? It was completely unprophesied by the WCG ministers of the 1960s & 1970s. I believe Gavin's website performs a very useful service to those of us trying to make sense out of the WCG experience.
I hope time has been good to you and your family. Jane is about to turn 80 also, and attends one of the splinter groups
although we never discuss religion anymore.
Best wishes,
Richard
>>> Do yourself a favor and watch this video.
Watch the Lost Tomb of Jesus! The tomb of Jesus has been found. What more evidence do you need?
www.video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2721674903803742679
I spoke to a former United member in 2006 about Ron Weinland. At the time the former member attended Uncle Ron's services, Weinland was a sort of respected minister in the UCG -- up until he went weird. The former member told me personally that the Weiner insisted that everyone in his services had to agree with him, or it would be the lake of fire. The member did not go along with it, and as Ronnie became more erratic and eccentric, he disfellowshipped a lot of people, including the man I talked to, and went off to start his own group. It is particularly troublesome to learn that some of these godlett pastards become rather abusive as they lose it.
This is not a new phenomenon. A friend of mine, having suffered terribly at the hands of Armstrongism -- who was also in the I-W program in Big Sandy and came away very much changed, and not in a good way, gave me some books on his way out of United. He was impressed by these self-made prophets, formerly of the WCG. I still have a couple here.
Visions of America by Timothy Sheaff, speaks to the madness gripping former members of the WCG: In the introduction he writes, During the years 1970 through 1976, God gave me dreams and visions about the events in the future of the United States of America and the church and told me to record them in my journal. What follows is a tribute to mental unbalance. The book was published in 1999, a little late, one would think. At the end Sheaff reports: I have four concerns regarding what is currently happening: The first is that if the feared trouble does not arrive when people think it will they will be inoculated and refuse prophetic warnings of coming judgments tht will be fr worse than what they presently consider. Yes, Roderick Meredith can certainly tell you about that, and soon Tom, and perhaps, Ron Weinland.
The next book here is Dreams and Visions from God by Malcom B. Heap, published in 2000 by Midnight Madness... er, Midnight Ministries, which makes Timothy Sheaff seem like a model of sanity by comparison. I will spare you, except for the excerpt where this yahoo went to a BMW dealership and told them to give him a vehicle or God would shut them down, and sure enough they were shut down within the year. A reading of this particular booklet convinced me that what happened is that the man was in the WCG until 1990 and went sort of nuts when a minister began ragging on him. This, with a background of absolute crazy change of the Church Corporate drove the poor man insane. That is what I think from reading the book. I highly don't recommend it.
Now the disturbing aspect of some of these false prophets is that a stopped clock is right twice a day. Of course, these nuts don't have such a good track record isn't so good because they are slow clocks and aren't totally stopped. Occasionally, they do hit on the right formula, or maybe demons reveal it, like a certain prophet of the past hearing voices in a cave and starting an abusive religion, resulting in extreme terrorism. By their fruit you shall know them. Also the press releases accompanied by their documented behavior.
Anyway, the United States really is in trouble. 2008 and 2009 are not years that those with whom I have talked in various venues are particularly optimistic about. Among other things, we are facing Hillary, not that certain prior big Oil CEOs are that good for the country either. Washington Mutual has lost $9 billion already and mortgage companies are dropping like flies after a bug bomb. "Natural disasters" and fires have plagued us. We have threats from radical Islam Terrorists, which is not to ignore other terrorists by any means. With gasoline at $3.00+ per gallon, the economy doesn't look that rosy.
Those of concerned for whatever reason about morals and ethics are appalled by the adoption of the worst of Corporate America and implementing it badly. Liberties are being taken all over the place. The local government council defies State and Federal legislation to risk $10,000 per day fines and more, managers in a department at the same level are married to each other, managing 80% of the people while HR looks on proudly. $10 million at a time is spent with a vendor with no competition, request for proposals, no support, no project, in violation of all government rules and everybody is fine with it: The council tells a competitor to shut up with a gag order or they won't get any business their way at all. A corrections officer told me last week that the State of Washington routinely spends $10 million for tools and equipment to make changes to prisons and then just throws it all out at the end of project because they don't know what to do with it: No resale, no reuse and certainly no selling it off for scrap. They just throw it in the garbage.
This is not to mention at all the behavior of the Church Corporate. If God really is concerned about human behavior, one would think that judgment would start with the house of God, what with stalking, fondling, cover ups and all sort of abusive mischief going on. Mr. Weinland is not innocent of abuse either and may well be writing about his own future.
The point is, maybe the Ronster is right about the fundamentals of the United States going down: As one 20 year old man told me, all empires fall -- and he was talking about the United States.
The best we could hope for is that Ron Weinland might have missed the end by five years or more... could be 10 or 20. But then you never know -- all those Jonahs lined up waiting for the fall of Ninevah might be quite disappointed. It might not happen at all just because God is sick and tired of false prophets prophesying in His Name.
Let's be glad that God made every one of Herbert Armstrong's false prophecies fail in his lifetime. Maybe He'll be merciful to the rest of us and postpone what should have been inevitable if only the false prophets had kept their mouths shut.
For the very few of you who might actually get this very funny joke about quantum physics and Schroedinger's Cat -- poor thing -- the one thing which ruins the experiment:
I guess we won't know about Ron Weinland's prophecies until we observe them.
The cat knows!
Robert,
Back in 1960s Armstrongism before the German attack on America prophesied for 1972 by Herbert Armstrong and his minions, Pope Paul was consider the end time Pope with perhaps one more as the final Pope.
Not that I keep score on the number of Popes, but I believe since Pope Paul we have had Pope John Paul I (lasted a month I believe), Pope John Paul II, and now this current Pope.
It amazes me that there is no end to the prophetic speculations surrounding the Pope which I guess accompany Armstrongism since the prophetic scenario of Armstrongism is a European Church and State combination, and the United Sates of Europe.
Armstrongite history seems to be repeating itself, and most likely there will be many more Weinlands and self proclaimed Apostles and a number of the Two witnesses. In fact, I believe Dennis Diehl mentioned he has met about 23 people claiming to be one of the two witnesses.
Richard
Douglas...DO NOT OPEN THAT BOX!
:)
Douglas...OPEN THAT BOX!
:(
For Tom....
The Attitude of a Christian
Here is the kind of attitude you will have. You will wish others to live their lives, too, up to their highest, their fullest, their best. You will be concerned for their welfare. You'll try to help others every way you can, never to hurt or to injure. You will never meddle. You will never dictate, interfere, or give unwanted advice, or speak ill of, nor gossip about others. Never will you go around griping, complaining, and murmuring that things make you and others unhappy. You will always be willing to help others by giving them a chance, and mainly you can help others by helping them to help themselves, by encouragement, by setting a good example, by thus inspiring and uplifting others, GIVING ADVICE ONLY WHEN IT'S WELCOMED...
http://www.cog-eim.org/hwarmstrong.html
>>>You can read about the two witnesses in Josephus - they are not Christians
Corky, well the Two Witnesses are probably going to be blood relatives of the Jesus dynasty.
As the film The Lost Tomb of Jesus shows, Jesus had a child called Judah.
It is likely even if you do not believe Jesus had a child that the other brothers of Jesus have actually maintained the blood line to this very day. But of course only God knows and it will be revealed near the end!
Robert...I just know some how you have worked Harry Potter into the Gospels and the Second coming....
Dennis,
I knew you would be one of the few people to understand. I hope you enjoyed the joke.
And now you can never know whether or not I opened the box until you observe whether I did or not.
It could be, after all, that I am in a box and people won't know....
But then again, the experiment could never work right, since the cat knows!
To the professor who was shot in lecture by his grandson who traveled back in time to shoot him, you didn't die because you swore you would never have children and you never did and so the grandson never traveled back in time. But how do you explain the bullet hole in the chalk board and what your students thought they saw?
If I keep this up, it may come to pass that Armstrong never existed, and then how would we explain this forum?
Oh, right: Someone observed it.
Douglas
I keep trying to turn around real fast and catch the smudge of the wave function of reality behind me before my eyes collapse it into matter.
So far no luck!
But, at least I now know the answer to the question of if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a noise?
The answer is no it does not :)
However, as we know, if a man makes a mistake in the woods and there is no one there to see it, we know it's still his fault!
If the Jewish calendars and calculations based on geneologies are correct, mankind has another 200 years plus or minus to go before we reach year 6,000 (not that I believe in HWA's 6,000 years for man and 1,000 for God theory, but I know the ACOGgers do).
Also, there was a Catholic "prophet" whose name escapes me, but who listed the popes up through the "end" He is the one on whom people are basing their predictions regarding Pope Benedict, and Peter the Roman. Others are factoring in the Mayan calendar, which curiously ends in 2012.
As far as I know, some of the evangelicals in Texas are still trying to breed the perfect red heiffer, required for the reinitiation of sacrifices at the yet unbuilt temple, prerequisite for the times of the end.
Really, there are now approximately a dozen known existential threats to the human race. They range from the bomb, to the genetically engineered German aquarium algae which is now running amuck in the oceans, to the impending reversal of the magnetic polarity of the earth, assorted viral agents, the melting of the polar ice caps, thinning of the ozone layer, and other factors which I don't recall just now. Bottom line is that man, and the USA have both proven to be very resilient problem solvers.
The only thing any of us can do is to live the best life possible. Be good to yourself and others. If you believe in God, try to allow Jesus Christ to channel his life through all of your actions. And, don't worry. God will take care of everything else. Each of us as individuals will experience whatever He feels we need to. Nobody knows if and when the end is coming. In the highly unlikely case that the stuff that Herbie taught us starts unfolding, I'm sure most thinking people would adjust.
As far as Ron Weinland goes, I understand that Charlie Manson came across as a very persuasive and sincere speaker as well.
BB
OK, Dennis. I am a lurker here who reads but does not comment. But your two replies to Douglas are the funniest thing I have read on the internet in a long time, and once I observed them they changed me. I am going to save them.
Robert,
You wrote "Watch the Lost Tomb of Jesus! The tomb of Jesus has been found. What more evidence do you need?"
In case you were not aware, the topic of that particular Discovery Channel television program was looked at on this blog. Gavin titled it Looney Tombs .
I hope you weren't serious when you wrote "What more evidence do you need?"
Really, there are now approximately a dozen known existential threats to the human race.
If they are not included, two really bad ideas is Artificial Intelligence and nanobots.
But we do know the earth is not going to last in any event: In 50,000 years or so, we will go through the Oort Cloud where we will have darkness and falling rocks from the sky -- the sun and moon will both be black from the dust -- and there will be a spectacular ice age. On the other hand, in 500 million years as the sun heads to be a red dwarf in 5 billion years, the surface of the earth will be hotter than melting lead, with the sun seven times hotter and the earth will have no oceans and likely no more atmosphere: We're toast.
Unless we spread out through the galaxy and beyond, humanity won't survive.
You can be certain though, if humanity heads out to Erandi, some cultist will establish yet another religion and people will come.
Ron Weinland does bring up a favorite topic: What's ahead for 2008?
Shall we indulge?
I keep trying to turn around real fast and catch the smudge of the wave function of reality behind me before my eyes collapse it into matter.
Good luck on whether or not the refrigerator light is on when the door is closed.
Catholics will also have major church events April 15-20 when Pope Benedict XVI visits Washington and New York on his six-day visit to the United States. (www.catholicnews.com)
Looks like the false prophet will be in the USA when the end draws near...
>>>I hope you weren't serious when you wrote "What more evidence do you need?"
Unfortunately some people may never believe even when the earth comes crashing down on them. Notice how people did not repent in Revelation 16:9, "they blasphemed God".
The Catholic church which has its own financial interests, peddling their own sacred sites, bringing in some lucrative cash into their coffers, is obviously going to rubbish any claims which make any current site obsolete.
James Tabor claimed it is possible and we have to look at the evidence in an unbalanced manner.
But unfortunately most make up their opinion within minutes, without looking at facts because anything which is contrary to their own understanding is generally disregarded.
Gavin with wit and insight gives six ways to deal with failure of prophetic dates. But there are at least three more:
(7) Execute the prophet. The Old Testament solution. Compare Jeremiah where there was a prophet
who said the exilees would return within two years, which didn't happen, and that prophet ended up
unfortunately dead prematurely (because he was a false prophet). Jeremiah more sensibly put the return out seventy years away,
safely beyond falsifiability in his lifetime. (However, there was a return within that time period, which immortalized Jeremiah posthumously as an accurate
prophet, in his case.)
(8) God is being merciful in deciding to delay further, to give the world more time to repent. This is the explanation in 2 Peter, and also in one of the Dead
Sea Scrolls, the Habakkuk Commentary. HWA had a variant of this: "you people (the church people) weren't ready...therefore God has to delay."
(9) Admit forthrightly one was wrong, say so publicly, take responsibility, offer no excuses,
and get out of the religion business.
Of course loss of faith is considered by many a tragedy even if every specific expectation and prediction is time after time shown no more accurate than ancient reading of animals' entrails or any other ancient means of divination. Belief in the gods, in the world of make-believe, dies hard. The clash between childhood religion and science is part of coming to adulthood. Marx once said something about religion being "the heart of a heartless world." In a broken world, religion is that which substitutes for what actually would be possible in reality in a fully human, fully aware world.
On the subject of repeated failures of dates for the Second Coming, compare "cargo cults" of the South Pacific which await the return of a mythical "John Frum" from the United States. Some anthropologists think "John Frum" was a World War II black American GI who promised some natives he would return ... and the "return of John Frum" is awaited to this day. Westerners laugh at the poor superstitious natives who continue to believe such a thing, often oblivious to the utter irony of the parallels with a hundred million Americans (including leading Presidential candidates aspiring to control the nuclear button) awaiting the "return of Jesus Christ". Which belief is really more outlandish?
Robert wrote:
"James Tabor claimed it is possible and we have to look at the evidence in an unbalanced manner."
A Freudian slip, Robert?
bamboo bends said :
Could you be so kind as to forward me a copy of that file to me via Gavin? I'd like to have those for my archive.
Sure, I'd be glad to. All I have to do is figure out how to send Gavin an email. Do you have his address?
Or perhaps Gavin could post the zip file (3.2 megs) here somewhere so that any who are interested could have access to this treasure of "The way we were." :-)
Memories
Misty water colored memories . . .
"For Tom....
The Attitude of a Christian
Here is the kind of attitude you will have...."
I agree with what you wrote to Tom, but you loose credibility when you advertise your website with a court documented incestuous child molester of ten years, who is also a documented false prophet to boot!
He was not a "molester" he was a rapist!!
Sting... email =
ambassadorwatch@gmail.com
Byker Bob said: Also, there was a Catholic "prophet" whose name escapes me, but who listed the popes up through the "end" He is the one on whom people are basing their predictions regarding Pope Benedict, and Peter the Roman.
You're referring to the alleged prophecies of St. Malachy, which did not actually come to light until about four centuries after the death of St. Malachy. As my bishop told me once, "Never forget that 'Malachy' is the origin of the word 'malarkey.'" But assuming those prophecies are genuine, we should be just one or two Pope away from the Second Coming.
Right.
Mr. Weinland claims to be a prophet and an end-time witness. Do you want to know who Mr. Weinland states is the 2nd end-time witness? In an audio sermon, “Gods Prophecy, part 2” approximately 55 minutes into the sermon, Mr. Weinland discusses the 2nd end-time witness. He describes the 2nd witness as belonging to their organization and that the identity of this witness must remain a secret. No one is too discuss this matter with anyone. God will give the identity of the 2nd witness during the last 3 and one-half year tribulation. Mr. Weinland describes this witness as a person who is a confidant and has witness beside him, since the fall of the WCG during December 1994. He does not come out and specifically say who this witness is, but does infer that it is his wife. Mr. Weinland in his latest book (God’s Final Witness) does make reference to the fact that he is the spokesman for both witnesses. So, if Mr. Weinland’s wife is the 2nd witness, then she does not need to speak because Mr. Weinland is spokesman. He also claims that many scattered church members will not believe this to be true because they have preconceived ideas of how God works. A woman witness just does not fit into the equation. This audio sermon “God’s Prophecy, part 2) can be located at www.cog-pkg.org/audio/.
#
” So, if Mr. Weinland’s wife is the 2nd witness, then she does not need to speak because Mr. Weinland is spokesman.”
Plus…she’d not be permitted to speak, or teach, in the church ‘cause she is a woman and if she has any Two Witness type questions, she’d have to ask her husband.
This guy can’t loose!
Sad actually what theo-illness can do to a person.
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