Tuesday 7 April 2009

Date Line Lunacy

Well, dusk has turned to dark and the Passover has now "passed over" New Zealand, the first major country in the world to meet each new day as it emerges out of thin air over the International Date Line.

Of course, our Aussie brethren might want to challenge that assertion about "major country," but we'll bide our time: if the cane toads don't get them first then global warming will eventually.

But seriously, how do people outside "the Holy Land" know that they're observing their sacred days on the right days? Why not have the date line in the middle of the Atlantic instead of the Pacific?

Regrettably, there's no proof text at hand. The problem of where to plonk the changeover line never occurred to the biblical writers. As far as they were concerned the earth was flat: heaven above (with Yahweh somewhere beyond the starry canopy), hades below. When the sun went down it passed over bare rocky nether regions that opened out onto nothingness before ascending once more into the bright domains of humankind.

Apparently Yahweh, despite being omniscient, was unaware of the problems that migration to the "Down Under" zone would create. Or the New World for that matter. The International Date Line was eventually set by mere mortals over a few gin and tonics.

Then there's the issue of the kink in the dateline over Tonga. Being sensible, intelligent and perceptive people the Tongans naturally wanted to be on the Kiwi side of the line, but the cartographers wanted to put them in company with the Americas. No wonder they objected! Thus the dateline was amended - and a bump was created to put Tonga on the civilized side of the temporal chasm.

As I understand it, Seventh-day Adventists in Tonga keep two sabbaths each week as a result: both Saturday and Sunday. Why? Well, the LORD seems not to have spoken specifically on the dented dateline, so they play safe... just in case!

I'm not sure whether there are any Adventists on Kiribati, but there the problem is even more glaring. Until January 1st 1995 Kiribati was on the Western side of the date line, but the micro-nation decided - again, who can blame them - to grab a day's march on the rest of the world, and thereby become the first place on the planet to welcome in the new millennium (and grab a lot of free publicity.) Boy, I bet the heavenly Department of Holy Days was cheesed off about that one!

And what about the long-suffering Samoans, forever doomed to keep the sabbath almost 24 hours after their nearby Tongan brethren.

Among the calendar fanatics who want to argue about solar/lunar/360 and suchlike, I've yet to come across a single one of these geniuses who can give a poor Tongan, Kiwi or Aussie a bit of biblical assurance that they're not a day out.

In the absence of a solution to this enigma, the whole concept of "Holy Time" outside the Middle East becomes meaningless.

SDA's are given to statements like: "Some people believe the placement of the International Date Line was achieved under divine guidance." Yes, doubtless, but it also logically follows that "some people" don't. What's needed is proof - or failing that, at least a nice proof text. Bob? Rod? Gerry? Willie? ... Anybody?

None of this has much to do with the spiritual significance of a eucharistic celebration. The Lord's Supper would be the Lord's Supper for observant Christians anywhere. But let's be clear, there is a real problem if you shackle it to a legalistic calculation of "holy time."

Herbert Armstrong always postured about sending a certified bank cheque to anyone who could mail in a Bible verse that commanded Sunday observance. I'm tempted to repeat the offer on the dateline issue. Clearly I won't need to go running to the bank anytime soon.

But if you do come up with a proof text, please be sure to mail it with a Kiribati stamp.


Unknown said...

I cackle at the notion that once a week there are a handful of Sabbatarians who are ending their Sabbath under the very same sunset that another group are starting their Sabbath. All this at the exact same moment.

BTW: One should read the Wikipedia entry on Flat Earth. As the concept is mostly a modern one.

Bend me shape me said...

I think we can take instruction from the Do Away Version of Isaiah 28:28:10

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line
upon line, zig upon zag; here a bend, and there a twist:

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this

28:12 To whom he said, This is the Sabbath lines wherewith ye may cause the
weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept,
precept upon precept; line upon line, zih upon zag; here a bend,
and there a twist; that they might go, and fall backward, and be
broken, and snared, and taken and not just a bit confused."


Baashabob said...

In my more foolish days, when I used to waste lots of precious time over such things, I looked into the calendar controversy.

I studied all the various reasons for why various days should be observed on one date as opposed to another. Putting all that stuff together I calculated there were over 150 different permutations; and probably a lot more that I missed. If our observing days at certain specific times is really all that important to God, then a whole lot of people are in a whole lot of trouble.

Anonymous said...

It's not that way; it's not that way at all. The Torah, which forms the backbone and benchmark of all Scripture, is deliberately brief and flexible. Interpretive decisions have to be made if the material is to be applicable. It was given as a gift to humanity, not as some kind of sadistic and ungainly burden. When we accept gifts, they become ours, and are no longer the property of the gift-givers, unless strings are attached.

The gift of Torah is not "The Law," but it is the ultimate legal source. It is intentionally open-ended, having to allow for circumstances as diverse as the International Dateline, Sabbath observance at the North Pole and in outer space, the kosher or non-kosher status of sturgeon, caviar and turkeys, and the cultural differences between Greeks, Americans, Jews and the Maury of New Zealand. Even Jesus recognized that the son of man is lord of the Sabbath; and who is to say that "son of man" in that context doesn't refer to responsible mortals, as it does throughout the book of Ezekiel?

There are practical and pleasant ways to live within the covenants between God, mankind and Israel. But from these posts it seems that some areas of Christianity have yet to explore them positively. It's a tragedy when a priceless gift is misunderstood, wrongly taught and therefore misapplied so grievously that it becomes wrongly perceived as execrable.

Anonymous said...

"If our observing days at certain specific times is really all that important to God, then a whole lot of people are in a whole lot of trouble."

Um. And your point is?? That was what the church always taught, when I was in.

Anonymous said...

And in the "Down Under" zone the spring festival is celebrated in the fall and the fall festival in the spring. And near the poles, where the sun never rises for part of the year and never sets for another part, when does the sabbath begin and end? HWA had to play God for some people in northern Norway when he told them to operate on Jerusalem time. In some parts of the world that get cold enough, minus 40 degrees or colder, it sometimes happens that there is a temperature inversion affecting the refraction of the Sun's light, where the sun comes up in the morning, then goes back down, then comes up again a few minutes later. It happens less often at sunset, because it is usually not as cold. The Almighty must have known that there would be fewer difficulties of this sort when He ordained the days to begin at sunset instead of at sunrise.

On another, but related, subject, for many years I've been amused about the Gregorian Calendar, decreed by Pope Gregory in 1582. It brought the calendar in line with astronomy. But the Orthodox churches, which had split from the RC church in 1054, refused to acknowledge the authority of the Pope and to this day most use the calendar of that complete pagan Julius Caesar (but some did something in 1923). The Protestant countries gradually adopted it in the 18th Century.

Tkach's $wiss Banker said...

"Date Line Lunacy" is the best article I've ever seen on this subject. Another gem of world class journalism from AW.

Anonymous said...

Ah yes, the old International Date Line debacle.

You say the SDAs regard this device as being set in place by Divine guidance.And indeed,as you have stated,the matter was probably settled, under spiritual influence,gin and tonic,or should that be sin and tonic?

Regarding the different dates of Observance of the Paschal ceremony,I am sure that the Lord will Passover these indiscretions in his great mercy.



SmilinJackSprat said...

Here's a little something extra for folks who like to see miracles in special calendrical events.

Once every 28 years the sun returns to the same relative position it occupied during the first hour of the fourth day of creation. And on extremely rare occasions, such as the year of the Egyptian Exodus and that of the Purim redemption, the 28 year cycle has coincided with the "eve" of the Jewish Passover, or "erev Pesach." From these past phenomena Rabbis find an indication that Israel's complete redemption will be near when this happens again. This year marks one of those extremely rare coincidences.

At the beginning of this year's erev Pesach, when the entire orb of the sun can be seen at sunrise, and the full moon will be seen later that evening, observant Jews recite the following blessing, which might be of interest to bloggers who feel a closeness to the Jewish people: "Blessed are You, G-d our Lord, King of the Universe, Who makes the works of Creation."

In Hebrew it's called the Birchat HaChamah (Blessing over the sun), "Baruch atah Adonai, Elohenyu, Melech HaOlam, oseh ma'aseh veresheet." There's an animation about it on YouTube,

Happy Passover!

kiwi said...

IIRC, Herbert Armstrong took the view that on our round earth you "keep the Sabbath when the Sabbath comes to you", quite possibily exhibiting an USA-centric view of the world which accepted that the USA received the Sabbath after Israel and that was all there was to it and it was therefore all very straightforward.

IMHO, a problem only arises if one takes the view that the keeping of days is critical to salvation - in which case we are truly up the creek without a paddle as the scriptures nowhere indicate which longitudinal line should herald the beginning of a brand new day.

OTOH, if the days are celebrated as "mission accomplished", it makes sense to trust the judgement of the remnant of Israel (the Jews) and follow their understanding of the calendar as it applies in the diaspora.

Mike (Don't Drink the Flavor Aid) said...

Here's another thought. If you happened to be in the Arctic circle at the wrong time, you could end up spending an entire season in the Sabbath because the Sun would not rise or set for 3 months.

At the same time someone who entered the Arctic circle in the middle of their week would not be in the Sabbath even when standing next to you.

VonHowitzer said...

I am amazed that some little Coglet hasn't restored the truth about time, as revealed by the words of Jesus himself. When told of the death of Lazarus, Jesus asked "Are there not twelve hours of daylight?" (NIV)

This implies a rather more elastic definition of an "hour" than we are used to today. In the dead of winter we'd have hours that are the equivalent of only 45 minutes or so today: at the height of summer an hour would be about 90 minutes long by our current reckoning.

I'm sure watchmakers could put some chip in their devices today that would perfectly adjust the length of an hour as the earth wandered from solstice to solstice. However, the first makers of timepieces had a real problem to deal with. The concept of making an hour an abstract length of time, unconnected to the amount of daylight on any particular day was in important development in the ability to measure all sorts of things, as it separated the duration of an event from the time of year it took place in. Thankfully, we don't have people running world record 10 minutes miles, as measured on December 17 of the year.

(For those that find this sort of thing interesting, check out Daniel Boorstin's book The Discoverers for a far more elaborate explanation).

As for the days of antiquity, having an international dateline would have been rather irrelevant. Why concern yourself with that when your ability to travel might amount to 100 miles on a very good day?

I suspect the concept of an IDL became necessary when mariners discovered that they could determine longitude by comparing the current value of noon - as determined by the sun overhead - against a pair of reliable chronometers set to Greenwich Mean Time. Twelve hours of variance meant you were on the opposite side of the world, where Saturday became Sunday, and the good Adventists can go have a beer and cigar if they choose.

As for being on one side of the line or the other, I think it's more valuable to consider the direction of travel. Cross one way, and you could have 48 hours of Atonement. Go the other way, and you'd have maybe 20 minutes. Or a weeks pay for 4 days work - or 6 days.

Must be awful for those Kiwi's, Tongans, and Kiribatis, living so close to the time precipice.


Corky said...

Which one of those "holy days" shadowed the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD? Which one of those "holy days" commemorates the death of 6 million Jews in the 1940s? Which one of those "holy days" foreshadowed the foundation of the Zionist state in 1948?

If you wonder what those "holy days" really meant, read the book, it tells you.

By the way, holy day keepers, what does Purim mean to you?

Anonymous said...

I guess you would need to know where the garden of eden was to know exactly which 24 hour time period God rested on if you are to truly keep the sabbath holy. Anything else would be considered an adulteration by man's time and tradition.

Undatable said...

There was mention of the IDL in a sermon, and how the SDAs on one island chose to accept the seventh day being on what other inhabitants chose to call Sunday. The implication was that they could observe the Sabbath, but didn't stand out as being different from the Sunday-keepers.

The WCG chose to observe the day that the SDAs would have considered the sixth day, but others would consider to be Saturday.

I don't even know if there were WCG members on that island. Regardless, the WCG had to take a stand or have an opinion on just about everything.

Tkach's $wiss Banker said...

"The International Date Line was eventually set by mere mortals over a few gin and tonics." Yes, in England no less, for the IDL is opposite Greenwich - not Jerusalem as Herbert bluffed in "Has Time Been Lost" booklet. Actually not Herbert's booklet as it is a plagiarized COG7D tract that he, as the "End Time Apostle", 'expropriated' after being booted from same - a disaster on par with his theft of British Israelism book texts. Proves thieves don't prosper (in the long run).

All this based on disastrous Adventist scholarship by 19th century Midwestern corn farmers. Though something good did come from these corn flakes - Kellog's CornFlakes. How ironic then that their greatest missionary triumph was in the Pacific islands opposite Greenwich - truly bizarre !

Anonymous said...

cool video Jack.

the problem is that April 8 is passover. (well, sunset April 7 to sunset April 8)

April 9 is the feast of unleavened bread.

so the "eve of passover" would be April 7, (or, sunset April 6 to sunset April 7), not April 8.

or one would be correct in noting that the evening of passover is the evening of April 7

IF you believe the bible, that is, when it says that the 14th of the first month is passover, the 15th is the feast of unleavened bread.

Baywolfe said...

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The holy days always started for us when we walked into services, and ended when we walked out. No time line need apply.

The last couple of years, our church area even started having morning Day of At-One-Ment services so you could go home and take a nap afterward until sundown.

Just silly observances taught by people who ridiculed other's silly observances.

Bend me shape me said...

A few more proof texts from the Do Away Virgin of the Bible on Date Lining.

2 Corinthians 10:13 and we in regard to the unmeasured things will not boast ourselves, but after the measure of the line that the God of measure did appoint to us -- to reach even unto you;

I'm not sure what the heck this means, even in the NIV, but I think it applies to the date line

2 Timothy 2:15 Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth.

Hmmm, seems bends and twists are illegal.

Numbers 34:8 And from Mount Hor the line will go in the direction of Hamath; the farthest point of it will be at Zedad:

Could that be New Zedad? hmmmm

Joshua 16:6 The line goes out to the west at Michmethath on the north; then turning to the east to Taanath-shiloh, going past it on the east of Janoah

Ok, well maybe they don't have to be straight lines after all.

Job 38:5 Who determined its measures, if you know? Or who stretched the line on it?

Uh oh...only the Deity can do lines

Isaiah 34:11 But the pelican and the porcupine will possess it. The owl and the raven will dwell in it. He will stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness.

The original Hebrew for owl is kiwi, for pelican it is albatross and raven is a raven still. Porcupine in hebrew is the word for Wallaby.

I think these scritpure prove God's care for the lands down under. Although, Exodus 23:5 "If you see the donkey of him who hates you fallen down under..."... does make you wonder...

Anonymous said...

I've driven sabbatarians bonkers over this issue, and it is interesting to note how few even understand the issue, where most just dismiss it all out of hand..." I keep the sabbath when it comes to me" is probably the most oft quoted cop-out.

Even when you try to take them through with baby steps, they stumble greatly!

"If you traveled east from Israel, say, 1000 miles, when does the sabbath begin for you in relation to Israel?

{perplexed stare, like the deer in the headlights}

"The sabbath would begin for you approximately 1 hour earlier, right?"

"-- um, yea.."

Ok, so if we keep traveling east to the US of A to about the middle, the sabbath would begin for you about 14 hours earlier than it does in Israel, right?"

"-- um, wait a minute..."

"You already agreed that for every thousand miles we go east, the sun sets about an hour earlier, right?"

"-- um, yea, but..."

"So you see, your sabbath would begin on Thursday at sunset and end on Friday at sunset. So why don't you keep the sabbath on Friday? It's just as valid as traveling west from Israel, isn't it?

" -- Buzz, click click, does not compute... does not compute... error, error..."

The ability to think critically is severely compromised with the poor sabbath keeper who refuses to let anything interfere with his set of "truths" from on high. Who was high at the time is debatable.

Bill Hohmann

SmilinJackSprat said...

Anon 03:07, you raise an interesting point:

"The problem is that April 8 is passover. (well, sunset April 7 to sunset April 8). April 9 is the feast of unleavened bread. So the "eve of passover" would be April 7, (or, sunset April 6 to sunset April 7), not April 8."

I understand what you mean, but there's more.

The lamb or kid was selected and tethered on the 10th, slaughtered and roasted on the 14th, and consumed at the Seder on the evening of the 15th. For the animal to be kosher for Passover, the environment of its owner had to be free of leaven and chametz. So "Unleavened Bread," had to begin before the sacrifice of the animal. The animal itself was termed, "the Passover." One selected, tethered, slaughtered (sacrificed), roasted and ate the Passover through that whole series of events, so to single out the 14th as "The Passover" is hard to justify.

In Christianity, the Passover, or Lamb of God, is seen as a metaphor for Jesus. Paul says "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us." One doesn't sacrifice a calendar date.

Mark uses bizarre language if he's talking about the 14th of Aviv/Nissan, being concerned about killing and eating the Passover. "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"

Today the word, "Passover," is all we have left of its original meaning. We still shun chametz, observe most of the dates and make the Seders, but without the Passover. Events between the 10th and the 14th, which once led up to the Seder, will essentially be moot until the Temple services are restored in Jerusalem. And we still observe the countdown to Shavuos (Pentecost) which is attached, by counting the omer, to the events of Passover.

So when Jews refer to Passover, we usually refer to the unleavened week, or to the first or second Passover Seder. We still rid ourselves of chametz by the 14th, but to call that "The Passover," wouldn't really fit what is left of the original lengthy series of Passover-centered events.

The "Last Supper" was no Passover Seder; that would occur on the next night. More than likely it was a traditional banquet to celebrate completion of an educational milestone, like a graduation. At such a banquet the "fast of the firstborn" was legally circumvented, which would account for Jesus' participation, both as their Teacher and as a bechor, or firstborn.

Anonymous said...

SJS re: Birchat HaChamah

The YouTube link didn't make it through the Great Firewall. But China Daily online ( had an article Jews offer prayers for the sun with a linking photo on the front page.

Baashabob said...

PH asked:
"Um. And your point is?? That was what the church always taught, when I was in."

The point was, and still is, that all those who accept that the observation of certain days at very particular times also believe that everyone else is wrong, and are therefore in a lot of trouble. They believe that the covenant made with Israel, and no one else according to scripture, somehow applies to them also. Only an orthodox Jew, who by definition does not recognize Christ as Messiah, has any need or requirement to observe those days. Christians, OTOH, are supposed to be following a different covenant, one that requires love towards neighbour but not the observing of days. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my previous post.

Bill said...

God rested for 24 hours?

Try reading the text again. He rested from "that" work, and that day shows having no end. God is still resting from that work, and it is the believer who can enter into God's rest while it is still called "Today". Read Hebrews 4. God's rest is this "sabbatismos" that the "sabbaton" was but a shadow.

Mel said...

What do Mr. and Mrs. R. Crumb do this week?

Anonymous said...

"The ability to think critically is severely compromised with the poor sabbath keeper who refuses to let anything interfere with his set of "truths" from on high. Who was high at the time is debatable."

Very good, Bill, now if only you could apply that attitude towards the rest of your "holy" book, you'd be set.

Also, your attitude stinks. But it's a very very Christian attitude, I can say that without reservation.

SmilinJackSprat said...

Anon 11:44, here's a link for you re. the now past anniversary of the first sunrise:

Bill said...

Thanks Perple for reducing everything down to an ad-hominem.

Anonymous said...

It just goes to show you that so-called "holy time" is relative. Just saying you "keep the sabbath" is not good enough for God. You MUST keep the sabbath perfectly. Not only that, if you choose to be a sabbath keeper, you must live your lives perfectly, without sin, ever.

Jesus is not going to "make up the difference" in our account with God. Jesus didn't die to take the role of the buddy system. And we certainly aren't going to "sack race it" into the kingdom with Jesus.

Anonymous said...

One of the arguments Armstrong used for a passover that was between the 13th and 14th was that Israel could not go out all night . He did not realize that the "are there not 12 hours in a day and 12 in the night" indicated that night ends at midnight!
The memorial for the church is at the beginning of the 14th when Christ was betrayed, but the passover was killed at the right time, the after noon of the 14th which is the time "between the evenings ON the 14th".
Between the 13th and 14th is not ON the 14th.
The passover of death itself was then on the 15th, midnight and after midnight they could indeed go out since there are 12 hours in day and 12 in night.

Anonymous said...

"Thanks Perple for reducing everything down to an ad-hominem."

If it had been an ad hominem, Gavin wouldn't have let it through, Bill.

Anonymous said...

"Creation took place in the spring month of Nisan,"

If nothing existed prior to "Creation", including linear time, "the spring month of Nisan" did not exist before "Creation". Therefore, how did "Creation take place" in a particular and specific segment of time, when time did not exist?

For all your evangelism about how Judaism is scientific SJS, the fairy tales hold together about as well as the Christian ones --- which is not very well at all.

I recommend reading anything by E. Wallis Budge instead.

SmilinJackSprat said...

I think people tend to forget that the pilgrimage feasts of Israel are intended to be celebrated by Israelites in Jerusalem. These would be Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. When an Ozzie or Kiwi is savoring a freshly roasted leg of lamb, with mint jelly, horseradish and the best of good friends, after 4 glasses of wine and a sinus-burning Hillel sandwich -- in Jerusalem, just down the road apiece from the architectural marvel of the world -- the season shouldn't feel too terribly out of kilter.

To my knowledge the only festival required of non-Israelites is Tabernacles, not even including Shmini Atseret, the 8th day of assembly.

Things feel wrong to folks in exile because they ARE wrong in exile. We don't know for certain who they are, but there's got to be a bunch of them scattered around the earth. Some of them might be contributors here, judging by the unusual Biblical interests of writers on this blog. Some of us with no knowledge at all of an Israelite heritage might just harbor enough of the Jacobite genes or inclinations to be hustled home during the days of Messiah. At that time all these things should feel just right.

SmilinJackSprat said...

Purple, did I say that?

"Creation took place in the spring month of Nisan,"

If nothing existed prior to "Creation", including linear time, "the spring month of Nisan" did not exist before "Creation". Therefore, how did "Creation take place" in a particular and specific segment of time, when time did not exist?

I agree. G-d and the Bible haven't a ghost of a chance on earth without questions like yours.

Anonymous said...

"The lamb or kid was selected and tethered on the 10th, slaughtered and roasted on the 14th, and consumed at the Seder on the evening of the 15th. "

well actually, the lamb was to be killed, cooked and eaten on the 14th....the daylight part of the 14th was spent spoiling the Egyptians, then Israel left at night, in the early part of the 15th, so they couldn't have been eating the lamb on the 15th..

and yes, the 14th was considered the first day of unleavened bread for the reason you give, although it wasn't technically the first day. sorta like the period of time between thanksgiving and christmas being referred to as "christmas" today, even though it's not technically christmas.

Jesus kept the passover with His diciples at the proper time, at the beginning of the 14th.
a large part of Israel kept it the next evening, on the 15th, hence the passover lambs being slain as Jesus died on the cross.
we see from reading the passover story in the OT that the Jews of that day, as today, do not keep it on the correct day. also they refer to the days of unleavened bread as "passover" today, as they did back then.
the oracles of God have been entrusted to the Jews, but that doesn't mean they understand them.

Anonymous said...

"Only an orthodox Jew, who by definition does not recognize Christ as Messiah, has any need or requirement to observe those days."

hmm, then why did Jesus instruct His diciples to keep the passover each year?

Corky said...

Anonymous said...
hmm, then why did Jesus instruct His diciples to keep the passover each year?

He didn't. The last supper is not the passover, it was the day before the passover.

Anonymous said...

"Purple, did I say that?"

The article you linked to said that. You might want to check the provenance of your recommendations a little more closely in future.

"I agree. G-d and the Bible haven't a ghost of a chance on earth without questions like yours."

"Men create gods. That is the way it is in the world. Men create gods, and worship their creations. It would be better for the gods to worship men!" Gospel of Philip.

Happy Sabbath, SJS.

Anonymous said...

"sorta like the period of time between thanksgiving and christmas being referred to as "christmas" today, even though it's not technically christmas."

Only the US. Halloween comes between Thanksgiving and Xmas, up here.

Anonymous said...

"The last supper is not the passover, it was the day before the passover."

Correct, and it was adapted from a similar sun-worshipping ritual from the Egyptian mystery schools devoted to the goddess Isis.

Anonymous said...

since the "last supper", as it's commonly called, occured on the 14th, it had to have been the passover meal.
the next day, the 15th, was the first day of unleavened bread, a separate observance.