Monday, August 11, 2008

Joe Jr. - The leopard's spots remain

Every now and then I fall into the trap of imagining the Tkach WCG isn't all that bad compared to the hairier splinters. Big mistake. Great Helmsman Joe isn't in the same league of outré as Flurry, Pack, Meredith et al., but surely that makes his apparent death grip on the organization all the more unacceptable.

Case in point, the laughable (and downright cultic) by-laws of the WCG, available on Stan's blog: read 'em and weep!

Then there's the strange case of the Canadian WCG being brought to heel earlier this year. Again, Stan is the man with the details.

WCG is not any kind of mainstream evangelical denomination, not as long as it avoids accountability by hiding behind a caricature of "episcopal" governance.

Nor as long as Joseph Tkach Jr. sits unchallenged and unchallengeable on the throne of his father, Joe I, and validates his "episcopal" authority through Herbert W. Armstrong.

Unelected, unaccountable, without a mandate. Why is he still there?

The very first editorial appearing on the old Missing Dimension/AW website was on this very issue. The years have gone by, promises have been made and forgotten. Nothing appears to have changed. Wasn't it Kruschev who said: "Promises are like pie crusts, made to be broken"?

Joe Tkach, shame on you!

76 comments:

Byker Bob said...

Perhaps the new and improved WCG makes sense on some level to the people who never splintered and wanted to remain with the main body. I don't know. But, to me, if I were looking for a church community, I believe I'd try to find one that matched up as closely to my current beliefs, and had some degree of accountability.

People need to be very careful of those to whom they give authority over their lives. When trust is betrayed, folks need not to be afraid to get out and search for a new church community, one which hopefully they can fully endorse and support.

I do my churching through my own personal study, and by watching messages on TBN. However, I have to admit it would be nice to have a community in which to be of service, and a place to take communion. There is no way I would ever consider the new WCG, or any of the splinter groups. Bad history. Bad fruits. Or, as RCM always used to say, "Bad, bad, bad dog!"

BB

Bamboo_bends said...

Please show us your Church ownership badge...

Juan Rheinland said...

I sat in a meeting where the Most Eminent Lawyer Bernard Schnippert was explaining how difficult it was for him to find ways to undo the legalities put in place to prevent others from undoing what the original WCG under HWA wanted done or not done upon HWA's death etc. I found that hilarious.

Here is the guy that WCG had in mind and the reason they did as they did telling us all how hard it was to get around it all. But I got the impression that , "but don't fear, we'll do it," was the point of the meeting.

Juan Rheinland said...

PS
I don't understand why a local church would need any association with Glendora. They don't bring new members to the local church through media etc. They can't seem to write an article much above what one might find in an adult Sunday School class. No one reads the Church news online and the article hits number in the mere hundreds if that.

The Surprising God Blog, which is for all WCG ministers and run by the guy who is supposed to be teaching them all how to be ministers and such, can't get more than one or two comments to each posting, if that.

The man who replaced me locally has about 15 people to pastor...down from 400, who don't give a rats ass about WCG way out there and can't identify with it much.

The local church did put scriptures on wrapped Halloween Candy a few years back, so i'm sure that brought many to Jesus without Glendora.

Everyone has changed their names locally so as not to be much identified with WCG.

Why would there be any need to support Tkach? Why is there any need to keep a new WCG going when all you have to do is go to the church of your choice down the street that's been up an runing for 100 years.

I guess if you want to go on the Fall for Jesus Cruises, you might want to stay, but that's about all I can think of ...

Robert said...

Just the other day, I was speaking to a former WCG member who said he knew of a group of WCG members in the WCG who continue to observe the Sabbath and holy days. Wouldn't it be ironic if one day these few people gained control of the WCG and turned it back as a God fearing, commandment keeping church again! Now that is what I would call justice!

Chico Escuela said...

Gavin said, “Unelected, unaccountable, without a mandate. Why is he still there/”

MY COMMENT: Why is he still there? Religion business has been berry good to Joey Tkach. Baseball been berry good to me. But, religion business been berry good to Joey Tkach. Berry Good!

Chico Escuela

Sue said...

A question....is it for sure that these bylaws are the current ones. I see the names of the board members who approved these bylaws and most if not all are long gone...either dead or in a splinter group or in a more mainstream church. Hence my question...are these the CURRENT WCG bylaws? If so, I have to say that I find it incredible that the "enlightened" WCG would tolerate such dictatorial bylaws.

Sue

Anonymous said...

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the "Promises are like pie crusts, made to be broken" qoute is attributed to Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (at least in modern times) - although it's been APPLIED by many others, including, of course, those in the wacky world of COG'ism.

Anonymous said...

Upon examining the "by-laws" of the WCG, I realized I must still be on the books as a member, seeing as I never sent them a letter of "resignation" from the WCG.

Seeing as I can be defined as one fomenting disunity in the church, and one who does not keep "God's law" (left undefined in the by-laws, therefore I conclude all of them given down through time) I need to write to them in this regard in order to be officially disfellowshipped. Hopefully, they will provide me with the proper documentation to this effect, suitable for framing.

Bill Hohmann

larry said...

I read the information from beginning to end. Don't see anything there worth getting excited about. Your analysis and complaints seem very similar to those of the Corinthian Church talking about the Apostle Paul.

As for "cultic", I think it should be made clear that anyone who vehemently disagrees with the WCG rules or leadership is free to leave at any time, and is even encouraged to do so. Membership in the Worldwide Church of God is and always has been strictly voluntary.

Anonymous said...

If the current WCG is such a loving evangelical congregation (as they claim) then why did the Director of International Ministry resign and leave the fold? He and his wife want absolutely nothing to do with WCG. Of course, before they left they were begin treated like dirt. But, what more could we expect from WCG honcho's?

$$$ Rich Russian $ectmaster $$$ said...

He looks well tanned like that other Californian Millionaire Angelo Mozilo who chashed in $138 million in stock of the devastated Countrywide Financial.

The Tkaches have done an excellent job of manipulating and tapping the finances of the pitiful vestige of fearful WCG cultists.

All the while I doubt he believes anymore of the Christ Myth than Jewish Stanley Raider did.

Anonymous said...

When you suddenly come into all that wealth and power as Joe Jr. did, who could blame him for not wanting to give it up?

I don't care what denomination you go to, the average church member is ignorant of how their church is run financially. Many mega-churches put their entire families on the payroll and take it all the way to the bank. (Think Joel Osteen in Houston)

Paul Balonus of Tarsus said...

"Your analysis and complaints seem very similar to those of the Corinthian Church talking about the Apostle Paul."

Ahh, excellent observation and the Corinthians were correct in their views of Paul the mythmaking , Jerusalem Church shunning, becoming all duplicitious things to all men hijacker of the Christianity of the Gospels. Sadly and of course, they were written long after Paul had lived, preached and died so he never knew of that earthly Jesus and certainly never quoted him in his writings, real or imagined.

I like the part of the bylaws where doctrine can be changed without notice or reasons given...what a guy.

I'll share the legalese sometime of ministerial termination papers... As the lawyer said to me after reading them...

"This is a church...?....You're fu..." They know how to write this stuff!

Corky said...

Byker Bob said...
People need to be very careful of those to whom they give authority over their lives.

Why would you give anyoneauthority over your life? None of them are "chosen" and none of them are apostles - no matter how much they lie about it.

Anonymous said...

There are pockets that still keep the Sabbath/Holy Days, but they have to lay low and tread lightly in order to do this.

Not surprisingly,even with the great pains they take not to cause problems, those who minister to these pockets are treated with contempt and disdain by some of those in the hierarchy.

If these people are observing those days/times in all sincerity, then WCG should either cut them them loose, or let them continue within WCG and shut the **** up, especially since they are still collecting tithes from these people.

Purple Hymnal said...

"Everyone has changed their names locally so as not to be much identified with WCG."

This is true of at least two Canadian congregations I know of. Presumably they will continue this with the rest of the country. The ones that don't die off completely once the rest of their members do.

My former congregation was 300 strong during its heyday. Hearsay now suggests that they cannot get even twenty of the sheeple to drag their butts out of bed on any given Saturday.

Yes that's right: They still meet on Saturday. So do a large percentage of the other Canadian congregations. So much for that trinitarian Sunday-keeping grace Junior wants them all to be filled with.

They're filled with something all right!

Anonymous said...

...All the while I doubt he believes anymore of the Christ Myth than Jewish Stanley Raider did...


Actually "Jewish" Stanley did believe in Jesus - nobody has ever pinned a illegal or immoral act on Stanley Rader. His crime seems to have been making sure HWA paid him well and that those contracts were not revocable during any one HWA's fits of rage.

The ministry (any side) will never forgive anyone making more than them. And that should give you some idea of what their "Wonderful World Tommorrow" would be like.

As to Joe beliefs, at least in the conversation I had with him a few weeks ago, he is sincere in what he believes. He certainly sincerely disagrees with my views.

I had hoped he had advanced farther than just the Nicean creed. Alas not!

Anonymous...

Mr. Scribe said...

Resignation form for those who care to follow through.

Packatolas on Payrollas said...

"Many mega-churches put their entire families on the payroll and take it all the way to the bank. (Think Joel Osteen in Houston)"

Mini Churches do it too. (Think Dave Pack)

Neotherm said...

There is an extraordinary difference between the operation of WCG governance under HWA and under the current Tkach. This is to be explained by the "invisible hand" of Adam Smith.

The Draconian by-laws of the HWA era were of great force because the people who were oppressed by these laws believed that there was only one true church and the path to salvation ran right through the middle of that church.

Now, people in the WCG can vote with their feet, like good free marketers. Membership in good standing in the WCG is no longer a condition for salvation. Instead, the full force of the capitalist model holds sway over the WCG as it does over most organizations that acknowledge the larger Christian community.

The fact that people can walk out of the WCG and into the local Baptist congregation as Christians totally deflates the force behind the WCG by-laws, traditions, regulations, ordinances or whatever.

In other words, the turmoil stirred up by the current attention to the WCG by-laws is really a tempest in a teapot. (And the posted by-laws cited seem to be antique.)

-- Neo

VonHowitzer said...

"Unelected, unaccountable, without a mandate. Why is he still there?"

Better question is, "Why is anyone else still there?"

Those that study management have found an interesting sub-category in the study of nonprofit institutions. How is it that these nonprofits motivate people to give of their time and energy, as well as their money?

Peter Drucker wrote about the management of nonprofits in his book Management. The book has been updated over a number of years, most recently in 2008.

As Drucker explains in the chapter summary (p. 150), "The first lesson business executives can learn from successful nonprofits is to begin with mission. Successful mission statements focus on the outside - the community and the customer. They look outside for what are considered meaningful results."

Drucker continues: "Many nonprofits have what is still rare in business, a functioning board with clear duties and responsibilites and measures of both CEO and board effectiveness." The board members believe in the mission and often volunteer themselves, and as a result, "they know more about the operations of the organization than their business counterparts."

In his final point, Drucker adds "Finally, successful nonprofits know how to manage volunteers. Managing a volunteer requires a clear mission (or score), high demands, accountability, and training."

What I see in the current WCG is a lack of all of the above. Can anyone recite the mission of the WCG? How does it relate to meaningful results?

Point two - the functioning board. Yeah, right. Only if functioning = breathing. Any one of them ever flick a booger in Joe the Deuce's direction and ask him what the hell he was thinking?!!

Managing volunteers, or church members, as it would apply to WCG, was the third leg of successful nonprofits. I'd say this was better in the Harmstrong days, as the mission identity and and measurable results were much stronger then. One could measure calls responding to the telecast, or copies of the PT picked up from magazine racks. Today, after decades of declining member rolls, income, congregations, ministers - just about any category except hubris - WCG declines to make known anything measurable. The implication, if not the fact, is that everything is still in decline - and that is no source of motivation for any volunteer.

And why should the members feel any accountability, when clearly, management does not? A meaningful board would have dismiss JT2 years ago. JT2 should have resigned in shame for what he has done to the church.

OTOH, WCG dead and gone is surely closer with JT2 at the helm than just about anyone else.

KMS

Anonymous said...

vonhowitzer said, "Can anyone recite the mission of the WCG?"

MY COMMENT - That's easy: The mission of the WCG is wealth management for the benefit of a very few elite "last standing" individuals so they and their generations will never have to work or ever worry about money ever again.

To ellaborate, the current management of WCG is reaping the huge rewards from 50 years of tithe farming by the founder entrepreneur Herbert W. Armstrong - tithes largely paid by ordinary people like my parents who gave it all in belief that the wonderful world tomorrow was right around the corner and that Armstrong was God's end representative on this earth.

Although in decline and a shell of its former self, the WCG today is still a cash cow. There is still residual income being generated even to this day. Don't forget the wills and estates that are being collected on by current WCG management willed by members under Armstrong's authoritarian influence many years ago.

The WCG was and still is a complete fraud to benefit an elite few people! "Lie to the masses, dine with the Classes"

Richard

Mel said...

Juan wrote, "I don't understand why a local church would need any association with Glendora."

I can imagine pastors wanting to get a pension, and that being a reason for their trying to convince their congregations to stay with their connection to Glendora.

Another reason "why a local church would need any association with Glendora":
If they had something to lose, like their church building and property. Even if it had been payed for by the local congregation, Tkach could say, "That's mine now, so get out!"

Another reason "why a local church would need any association with Glendora":
If they had something to lose, like their friends. Many a Worldwider's social circle consists almost entirely of other WCG church members. They have seen and experienced the breaking apart of family and friends because of people leaving, and they value the social circle that they've been able to retain.

And another thing I'll mention:
The church leadership must play to the old "we have better understanding you" mindset that was so well inculcated in it's members.
I recently had a current member explain to me how, because they once believed as they did, then had accepted the 'new covenant', it gives them a superior and unique perspective.
As the annoying wind-bag recently told me, they now "see the old covenant through new covenant eyes"
The "We see the Truth better!" attitude was unmistakable.

I suppose it's easier to feel like a big fish when the pond has gotten so tiny.

Anonymous said...

"As for "cultic", I think it should be made clear that anyone who vehemently disagrees with the WCG rules or leadership is free to leave at any time, and is even encouraged to do so."

Yes, that's what all the other cults say as well. Of course WCG's bylaws are clear that any dissenting attitudes are grounds for dismissal. The thing is, this is perfectly acceptable for most WCGers since that is what most are used to from the old regime.

I am curious, however. How much growth, in terms of evangelical (non-sabbatarian) members, has the WCG had over the past decade? Or, is it mostly made up of old-timers who will eventually fade away and as will the church?

Purple Hymnal said...

"WCG should either cut them [teh ebul sabbath keeping holydays observers] them loose, or let them continue within WCG and shut the **** up, especially since they are still collecting tithes from these people."

You just answered your own question anon.

DennisDiehl said...

I have to say that in reading, for the first time ever mind you, the bylaws, I must have had shit for brains as a younger man. I saw this stuff enacted time and time again, but didn't know it was written down as the WAY to act!

Don't think that all the ministers in WCG knew how it all was or how it would be for them if push came to shove. I can't speak for anyone but myself. I didn't know how these things worked. I would have liked to think that great big "hmmmmmmm" in the pit of my stomach would have told me something I needed to pay attention to, but alas, it didn't. For that I am truly sorry. The "power" which these theological bafoons took to themselves in print is stunning to me in hindsite. How the hell did it work in the unspoken world of the good 'ol Imperial School kids club?

I am reminded of what, for me, became a memorable line from the Move JFK by Oliver Stone.

The character, and he was one, played by Joe Peshi had come to end of his rope and was up to his eyeballs in stuff he evidently never meant to be. He took a moment and said...."and all I ever wanted to be was a f....ing Priest." I understood that comment long ago. I probably watched that movie during some other drama WCG had come up with at the time for everyone to soak in and question their desire to defend "God's Church," and the leadership.

Argh, argh and half an argh...

"Lord...save me from your followers but especially your chosen leaders."

Someone once told me that we write our scripts for life before we incarnate as a specific human being. Doctrinal wrangling aside, may I ask that if true, there be a rule about no drinking when writing the script!

Perhaps someday I'll be able to let this complete waste of my personal life time and energy go and consider it just a big fat stinking lesson in good intentions going awry and moving on.

DennisDiehl said...

PS as usual...

This can't be all for nothing. Nothing is for Nothing was the last sermon I ever gave and I choose to believe it.

The ONLY measure of our Spiritual Growth is our ability to LOVE.

"Love is not ingratiation, it is not being kind, polite or being nice. Love is the complete and total acceptance of what is, and that starts with ourselves. As we accept ourselves, we accept others, as we cease judging ourselves, we cease judging others, as we love ourselves, we love others." (What is Spiritual Growth..John Payne)

Makes sense to me. In the world of WCG and it's splinters, slivers and dust mites, as I have said, we have those that wish death on others for disagreeing with them or not fitting their religious view of how it MUST BE.

It's both interesting and discouraging to visit Mr. Mahon's site to see myself held up as an example of whatever his rather unbalanced and at times scary theological paradigmns have lead him to. It is comforting to know that he has made some now past prophetic mutterings that did not happen and he is evidently unwilling to answer the question what does OT say to do with false prophets? Hireling, false prophet, what's the difference? People are weird when infested by god-haunted religion.

The chalatans, narcissists and perhaps even mentally ill rise to the top and take peoples brains and minds on trip to Bible fantasy land. They allow it of course.

Many in my experience with people simply have not even gotten past loving themselves much less passing it on to others. As I have noted, if "let every man esteem othes BETTER than themselves," is true, then what do all the others do? Everyone can't do this and as we know,it's a way of the Bible telling us that self love is wrong. I say it's foundational to a sane mind. I'm not speaking of narcissim which is toxic self love. I simply mean not letting others tell you what your motives are or were or caring if they get it screwed up, which they usually do.

When I read I Cor 13, I had always wondered if Paul, who was rancourous and harldy this type of person, really wrote it? This Paul who wanted circumcisers to cut their d....s off. This Paul who said, "damn them" in Galatians 1. Some don't think so. Perhaps it was his quiet wish to change and be this. I don't know.

Love, which seems to be dropping resistance to what is, seems to be the best goal in life. If the love of God is "that we keep his commandments.." then I have not seen anyone do do that very well in decades of religious experiences. Myself included

"The ONLY measure of our Spiritual Growth is our ability to LOVE."

I like that one..

PPS..Sadly and of course, some will respond with, God's love also has justice and demands this or that...bullshit. That's Biblegod, the one that evolved in the OT from the previous Canaanite Deity Mr. El. and the whole council of the gods that came with him into Genesis until they got written out of the text.

Stan said...

Neo wrote: “The fact that people can walk out of the WCG ...totally deflates the force behind the WCG by-laws, traditions, regulations, ordinances or whatever.”

I have some difficulty equating the WCG to a completely free market economy. Ministers, members, and congregations are not free to do as the wish. Tkach has just as much power on paper as Armstrong ever did, but as you suggested, does not today wield the force of a cult god himself.

You mentioned the antique language (e.g. disfellowship). The Church Association bylaws we have under discussion were enacted as the bylaws of the WCG June 30, 1981 by Herbert Armstrong himself. Less than five years later, Armstrong was thoroughly dead. These bylaws were then revised (exactly how extensively revised has not been revealed) and adopted by Tkach Sr. to his satisfaction as the WCG Church Association bylaws as of Feb 21, 1986. Less than ten years later, Tkach Sr. died Sept 23, 1995. So the current WCG is under the Armstrong's original bylaw, although modified.

Then, according to the July 1996 Worldwide News, it was reported that Tkach Jr. planned to move ahead with changes both to the church Articles and Bylaws. Some of the changes he anticipates making include: to add a provision giving authority for the Pastor General's removal in the event of some personal wrongdoing in the nature of a crime (incest, serial fornication, gambling with Church money) or act of moral turpitude; to establish a term limit (?) for the Pastor General; and, to empower the Board with more responsibility for choosing (?) a successor.

So far, we have seen little evidence of any such changes. The power of the Pastor General over the international dummy boards through the denominational church Association has not diminished on paper or in fact, as has most recently been proven in Canada. In fact, Tkach still directly sits as director on top of the Canadian Board.

I have just have uploaded a new entry with the WCG corporate bylaws, current as of July 23, 1996 on the AmbassadorReports dot blogspot dot com website.

Stan

Juan Rheinland said...

Good comments Mel, on why stay.

Anonymous said...

yawn

Nick A'Demas said...

Regardless of anything we share here regarding the past history of the WCG, the splinters will continue to attract the BI-curious.

BB

Anonymous said...

You mentioned the head of International Ministry. What ever happened to him?

larry said...

I continue to be amazed at the passion demonstrated here about an organization that most of you walked away from long ago. How can you possibly still care what Joe Tkach, Jr. does or thinks? What difference does it make to you how much money anyone else makes?

The only possible explanation for all this interest is that the WCG touches a nerve that nothing else does, probably a spiritual one, whether you know it or like it.

Worldwide Church of Fraud said...

Larry said, “I continue to be amazed at the passion demonstrated here about an organization that most of you walked away from long ago……The only possible explanation for all this interest is that the WCG touches a nerve that nothing else does, probably a spiritual one, whether you know it or like it.”

MY COMMENT – I think we have been down this road on Ambassador Watch before Larry. So, I won’t restate the same comments I made the last time I responded to you when you made similar statements. Instead, I’ll respond by saying I have the same feelings toward the WCG that I have toward a criminal organization that was known as WorldCom. Have you ever heard of WorldCom Larry?

WorldCom perpetrate the largest financial fraud in American business history. They hid $11Billion dollars of expenses that otherwise would have deflated their EPS had it been known and therefore would have rendered their common stock worthless. WorldCom was a collection of about 70 companies that were acquired along the way using their inflated stock price to buy more companies. WorldCom’s inflated stock price was based on their bogus financial statements that hid the $11 Billion. One of the companies that WorldCom bought was my company – a once thriving company that was purchased and destroyed by WorldCom using their bogus common stock fiat money. When the WorldCom fraud became known and the bankruptcy ensued, employees of my former company lost their retirements and their life savings.

My personal losses in the WorldCom debacle were six figures. Stupid me, I didn’t know WorldCom’s financials were a fraud. All our 401K company contributions were in my company’s stock which became WorldCom stock upon acquisition – all which became worthless when the fraud became known.

Now Larry, I only tell you this because guess what? I have the same passion toward the criminal organization WorldCom and the former executives who are now in prison as I do the criminal organization that I see in the Armstrong religion business empire. And guess what Larry? There is nothing spiritual about my passion for justice in the WorldCom fraud. I see the same criminality in WCG that I see in WorldCom. If the WCG had been a publicly traded company, Herbert Armstrong and Joseph Tkach would have done hard long jail time for their frauds.

So Larry, he is my passion – I hate fraud. Fraud is a misrepresentation of the truth. Fraud is a lie. Big Fraud is a Big Lie. Big fraud involves big money taken from people. The dirty little secret in America is that big time fraud pays. Scott Sullivan, WorldCom CFO gets out of jail next year. There is a $12 Million bonus Sullivan received months before the fraud broke that has never been found – probably hidden for Sullivan in a Swiss bank account. There is other money that can’t be found (although the government was able to seize Sullivan’s $20 Million Boca Raton Ocean front mansion).

Big time fraud in America does pay, and little people like the many faithful members who believed Herbert Armstrong and gave, and gave, and gave (because God’s way is Give as we were repeatedly told) usually under the threat of eternal damnation and Lake of Fire judgment so little Joey Tkach many years later could live the lifestyle of the rich and famous. Herbert Armstrong dined with the Classes because he lied to the masses!

The two biggest frauds of my life were Herbert W. Armstrong and WorldCom. I am a living witness to the fraud of the WCG and Herbert Armstrong. I know what was preached for many years and I know how the money Joey Jr. inherited was obtained. I know what happened. My family and I took substantial personal losses as a result of the frauds.

If Joey Tkach had any integrity – any integrity, he would have liquidated the WCG and Ambassador College assets, and distributed the multi million dollar proceeds pro rata to the donors who gave the money and also give people like Dennis Diehl, who gave the best years of his life to what he believed to be true, a pension. Larry, if you don’t think fraud hurts people, then you are completely clueless. And, you haven’t been reading Dennis’s posts here on AW.

So, there is my passion. I hate big time frauds, and the only thing spiritual about it is the thoughts that I have about how the biggest liars seem to be the ones who prosper the most!

Richard

Charlie said...

Larry: Go away then.

Anonymous said...

I believe that there should be a pretty high degree of sacrifice from ministers. I think we saw that with the $35,000 per year salaries for rank-and-file WCG ministers, but not the top brass.
We see far too many churches today with ministers who are consumed with wealth building. I stopped attending one mega-church after Hummer donated the use of a few of their cars for use at a church event. The minister wore a t-shirt in the sermon the next weekend with the name Hummer on it. Christianity is more commercialized than ever now and even the "christian" radio stations are nothing more than ways to generate income from advertisements of shark fin supplements.
Make no mistake, religion is BIG business in America. Ministers today don't know what "sacrifice" is any more.

Mr. Scribe said...

Well said Worldwide Church of Fraud.

This has been my passion also. To walk away and to do nothing is to assist those who do evil. So I told the stories of others in video. I documented the abuses using video. I let the world see Herbert W. Armstrong for what he was using video.

Anyone that wants to be affiliated with one of the Armstrong'ist groups since the breakup of the wcg and witnessing the endless corporate church start-ups, is a mental case. Experience show this to be true. Just read the writings from the COG cults. Watch the prophecies fly out of the mouths of the false prophets. Watch as people reject what the bible says about the disposal of false prophets who fail even once. Watch and witness small fortunes made and lost on the rotten corpse of Armstrong.

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke.

Anonymous said...

A person of integrity would have never taken any position of authority in WCG if they secretly were planning to change the most vital doctrines. What the Tkachs did, they did to gain control over a vast amount of wealth. Additionally, they (especially Jr. and his 2 cohorts Feasell and Albrecht)had a vendetta against the church becauase it supposedly ruined their miserable lives as teenagers.

However, as this blog proves over again, the character of the entire church had deteriorated. The fruit became bad. The tree needed a good pruning. Why is this a mystery to so many?

Notwithstanding, the basic doctrines of God's Church are righteous, and God's way of life is just, regardless if humans found a way to use them to do evil in His name.

The idea of God's Kingdom (government) coming to usurp man's rule on earth is an awesome concept even if you don't like the fact that God isn't going to do it your way nor in your expected timeframe.

I challenge all to re-examine the original doctrines of the Church of God without prejudice. You will find a beautiful way of life, worth living and worth believing.

Purple Hymnal said...

Didn't I tell you people that "Larry" would eventually devolve into "get-over-it-itis"?

Paulus Balonus of Tarsus said...

"A person of integrity would have never taken any position of authority in WCG if they secretly were planning to change the most vital doctrines."

Thank you Jebus! The boiled down, absolute and simple truth of the Tkach debacle. No matter the Truth, error, misunderstanding or wrong beliefs (who has the right ones?) of the church, the Tkaches should have stepped down, along with the Imperial Gang of spiritual thugs. It should have been left it to those whose hearts were in what seemed right with their reading of the Bible and their background (limited or not) in it.

You leave what you can't abide. You don't put yourself in charge, give it to your son and then have him share the booty with his buddies declaring a miracle from Jesus who was probably in New Zealand at the time.

The only miracle any Jesus performed in the WCG of the Tkaches is that he did not...oh never mind...

Nicely put!

larry said...

Richard,
Your argument is so fallacious it is hard to know where to begin. You are comparing voluntary contributions to a non-profit organization to WorldCom investments. I certainly sympathize with all those who were defrauded by WorldCom. Sorry to hear that you were among them. But comparing that to the Church is absurd.
Investing in a corporation involves contractual arrangements between the investor and the company. There also is an expectation of a return on such investment. In the WorldCom situation, laws were violated, and people prosecuted. Nothing like that can be said about the WCG, now or in the past.
Members of the Church have always known where the money was spent. This was not a secret. Furthermore, there was no contractual arrangement between donors and the Church, OR most importantly, an expected ROI. The Church has never preached or even suggested that donating would lead to “financial” success, the way the world defines it. (as some organizations often do) In fact, the Church openly proclaimed the opposite: that faithfulness would quite likely be rewarded by incredible difficulties! This is Christianity 101! This does not apply to just the WCG. I don’t know any Catholics or Baptists who expect to be reimbursed for their freely-given offerings or employees of those organizations who expect remuneration from those NGOs when they walk away, and especially if they continue to criticize the organization.
Is it possible that there has been some dishonesty in the leadership of the WCG? Of course, anything is possible. Please submit to me a list of churches where that has never happened. I eagerly await. But, I am personally acquainted with some leading ministers who are still in the Church, and whose names you would recognize, and I can safely say that no finer gentlemen ever walked on this planet. Your characterization of these ministers as crooks and charlatans is simply bull!
I return to my thesis. The blame for your problems should be focused where it belongs, on Satan the Devil. The reason there is so much passion on this board is because, the WCG does now, and always has, cut straight to the heart of spirituality, and how God thinks. God indeed honors intent and faith, even if it is occasionally misguided.

And one other thing, don’t give me any of that “naivete” nonsense, it is highly unlikely that anyone posting on this board has suffered more difficulties (trials, if you like) than I have.

Bamboo_bends said...

Mr. Scribe said...

This has been my passion also. To walk away and to do nothing is to assist those who do evil. So I told the stories of others in video. I documented the abuses using video. I let the world see Herbert W. Armstrong for what he was using video.......


.....“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke.


Amen Brother KSCRIBE! Can I get a witness brethren?!

In French : Qui ne dit mot, consent! Who is silent, consents!

Next time someone says "why don't you leave it alone", they are really wanting your consent to the evil done.....

Its oh so hard to be reminded of it! "But it wasn't like that!" "Not every minister was like that!" Perhaps not, but far too many were.

But at the root of it all I think the real rub is those who were so much a part of the abuse, don't want to face the fact that while they felt they were doing what God wanted at the time, what they did was anything but Godly. But they were too sidetracked with those nice comfy church provided homes, WCG Amex Cards and those special dinners in the student center and HWA's gold flatware to think of the members and their struggles to pay their onerous system of tithes.

An typical evangelist in 1985 could make $80,000 a year, drive a new fleet car, have use of an AMEX card, and subsidized housing. They paid no social security tax, no second tithe or third tithe, and carried none of the financial burdens the membership was expected to carry.

A non-ordained "Department Head" who actually had business skills could only expect to earn about $50,000 in 1985. When any non-ordained person approached evangelist level salaries, the evangelists were the first to throw a fit, which to me, has always explained their hatred of Stanley Rader. He didn't play the game their way, and he was better at the game, and on average he made four times their salary.

The ministry was a caste system. Their children got preference at Ambassador College, and always preferential treatment in the local churches.

Armstrong's idea of the Wonderful World Tomorrow would have looked an awful like today's Cleric run Iran.

Larry of Arimathea said...

"... comparing that to the Church is absurd.
Investing in a corporation involves contractual arrangements between the investor and the company. There also is an expectation of a return on such investment. "

UM...God kinda made a contract with generous givers.

Something about "Prove me now herewith and see if I won't open the windows of heaven for you."

In the NT Jesus tells us to "ask whatever you will and I will give it."

God and Jesus made a lot of contractual statements with humans in scripture. But, like WCG Buylaws, they had exemption clauses a plenty.

Still waiting......

"The blame for your problems should be focused where it belongs, on Satan the Devil."

The problem here is that there is no such entity nor his minions

Larry's Worldwide Church of Fraud said...

Larry,

Once again, I am reminded of the Saturday Night Live skit “Pointer Counterpoint” in which Dan Akroyd would respond:

“Jane, you ignorant slut!”

Larry said, “You are comparing voluntary contributions to a non-profit organization to WorldCom investments.”

MY COMMENT – Wrong Larry! The contributions were not voluntary. They were given by members under the influence of a false Apostle and his minions who used mind control techniques to extort large sums of money over many years from the members who were under threat of eternal damnation and Lake of Fire final judgment. I well remember what I heard and took notes on in the 1960s WCG. Larry, you cannot obfuscate the fraud by attempting to put up the false smokescreen that there is a difference between “for profit” corporate fraud and “non-profit” corporate fraud. Fraud is fraud, Larry!

Larry said, “Members of the Church have always known where the money was spent”.

MY COMMENT – Wrong again Larry! In fact, that is an outright lie Larry. I don’t know if this is another example of you being completely clueless, or a deliberate lie. The WCG has NEVER had full financial disclosure and accountability of its money. If this were true Larry, then please provide all of us with a complete and accurate accounting of the Pasadena campus sale. Why did the AW website have to go through second hand sources to find the sale price of the Pasadena parcel? Members of the Church have NOT always known where the money was spent. We didn’t know that $50,000 was misappropriated to pay GTA’s gambling debts in Nevada. Don’t give us this BS that the WCG has accountability and full financial disclosure, and members always know where the money was spent.

Larry said, “Furthermore, there was no contractual arrangement between donors and the Church, OR most importantly, an expected ROI. The Church has never preached or even suggested that donating would lead to “financial” success, the way the world defines it.”

MY COMMENT – Wrong again Larry! I never said the Church preached or even suggested that donating would lead to “financial” success, the way the world defines it. When did I say that, Larry?

But, now that you mention it Larry, the Church DID PREACH that tithing was God's plan for personal financial success. How many articles were there in the GN about personal finances in connection with tithing and giving to the Church?

So, your statement "The Church has never preached or even suggested that donating would lead to financial success", is an outright lie, Larry!

Now Larry, there was an agreement between the Church and its donors, and a fiduciary responsibility of the Church to act with honesty and integrity. In this regard, I would suggest you read Dennis Diehl’s article on Church Donor Bill of Rights.

For example Larry, did the Hammer family donate the Big Sandy parcel to the Church so that it could ultimately be liquidated many years later and the funds be pocketed by little Joey Tkach?

Larry, you made the statement “there was no contractual arrangement between donors and the Church” How would you answer the Hammer family who donated the Big Sandy parcel? Or doesn’t ethics and integrity mean anything to you?

Larry said, “Is it possible that there has been some dishonesty in the leadership of the WCG? Of course, anything is possible. Please submit to me a list of churches where that has never happened. I eagerly await.”

MY COMMENT – Wrong again Larry! First, the burden is not on me to submit to you a list of other churches where this has never happened. I only know the Worldwide Church of God (Fraud). This is another one of your failed attempts to obfuscate the massive fraud of the WCG by justifying the dishonesty by saying “well give me a list of churches where that has never happened”. That is BS Larry, and I think you know it!

Second, there is a HUGE difference between “some dishonesty in the leadership of the WCG” and the MASSIVE FRAUD upon which the WCG was built and existed. The MASSIVE FRAUD of Herbert Armstrong and the WCG are chronicled by the MANY living witnesses who have posted here on the Ambassador Watch, The Painful Truth and other websites. The truth is out there for all to see, and you can’t obfuscate it Larry!

I am sorry Larry that you are wrong and you have spent a lifetime in a fraudulent, financially and criminally corrupt organization. I understand the truth certainly hurts you, Larry.

I am sorry to be so brutally honest with you about the Truth.

However, I will not allow you to obfuscate the fraud that the WCG was and is, and try to pull the wool over people’s eyes that there is a difference between “for profit fraud” and “non-profit fraud”

Fraud is fraud. Lies are lies. The fruit of the dying tree - your dying tree - is there for all to see.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Karma...

"Through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others. The results or 'fruits' of actions are called karma-phala. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well."

It will come back on the bastards... in this life and the next.

Gospel Thomas 59
Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."

VonHowitzer said...

Larry, you just don't get it.

WCG was an organization we passionately supported, and it shouldn't be surprising that we react passionately to its foibles today.

I left twelve years ago when I saw the enormity of the error that the WCG taught, as well as the moral bankruptcy of many of its chief leaders. I had hopes that under the leadership of JT1 and JT2 the WCG would not only reform its heretical doctrines, but that it would also change its abusive governmental structure.

Instead, what we got was a rush to protestantism, including small groups, praise bands, Promise Keepers, and shrimps on the barbie. Not wrong of themselves, but eyewash in comparison to the larger issues.

From my current vantage point, I see a broken promise to reform church government, with a deadline that expired years ago.

I see that WCG no long accounts for their income and expenses, as good stewards of "God's money".

I see an organization that gives no clear account of ministers, churches, and member counts.

I see church leaders that no longer even attend the church they are supposed to lead. Are these truly shepherds?

I read that each local congregation could choose which day to meet on, and hear of pressure being applied to make sure that day was WCG approved, i.e., sunday.

I see that the right to print Harmstrong's heresy was sold to PCG, showing an attitude that a common whore would appreciate.

I see that the only real church member is Joe Tkach Jr., and that everyone else in able to join him at his sufferance.

I've not met Joe jr., except in passing, but I have met a number of church leaders in the years I spent in Pasadena. Some are still in high positions in Pasadena, and some in high positions in many of the splinters. Hell, I might have even met you sometime. Most are pretty nice joes, and none cheated on their golf scores. But are they *christian* leaders?

When people hide things it's usually because they want something hidden - so why is WCG hiding so much?

Again, if there is nothing to hide, why hide it?

At one time I thought I was part of the church OF GOD - the same God that wants me to live honestly, peacably, not lying, with integrity.

Where is the integrity in WCG? The honesty? Maybe when they stop trying to take God's name on their ungodly behavior, and do what they say they will, or what God's name implies that they ought, will my interest in them wane.

In the meantime, I have to fight my schadenfreude.

KMS

Anonymous said...

Even if I thought about returning to the WCG after leaving 10 years ago, I wouldn't. Why? Because of their government structure with power cloistered at the top. That hasn't changed at all. What the heck are they doing with all that money anyway? Where is the transparency? Where is the accountability?
They know they are sitting on a pot of gold. They may speak gently on camera, but they know they were lucky enough to get the keys to the treasure chest of the spoils of Herbert Armstrong.

larry said...

Whatever happened to the understanding that it is GOD's responsibility and prerogative to deal with His people as He sees fit and on His timetable? God is quite capable of, and willing to change the Church leadership at any time if He deems that it is necessary. Our responsibility is our own thoughts, actions, and behavior. God will deal with those who speak for Him, or claim to speak for Him, in His way.

Apparently, at least one person on this board doesn't believe in "Satan and his minions", which means that he/she doesn't believe in God either.

But, even more difficult is to actually BELIEVE God, which sometimes (even often) means sitting back and doing nothing! (prayer and fasting are OK) This means....letting God handle it! For we humans this is VERY hard to do. We seem to always want to take action, to DO something when we perceive that a change is needed. God really DOES NOT NEED our help on these matters.

Because of the things that I have personally been through in my life, I can speak with authority on this particular issue. Abraham is considered the "Father of the Faithful" and all he did (besides being obedient) was...wait.

Corky said...

larry said...
Whatever happened to the understanding that it is GOD's responsibility and prerogative to deal with His people as He sees fit and on His timetable? God is quite capable of, and willing to change the Church leadership at any time if He deems that it is necessary. Our responsibility is our own thoughts, actions, and behavior. God will deal with those who speak for Him, or claim to speak for Him, in His way.

So you know what God is willing to do huh? Well, those men in the church leadership knows something that you don't - there is no God to "deal" with them and that's why they're not afraid to rob you.

Byker Bob said...

Larry, there is no point in waiting patiently if you are stuck in a false church. That would be idiocy. If you compare 1975 in Prophecy, and all of the WCG articles, sermons and member letters leading up to 1975 with Deut.18:22, you can plainly see what God is trying to tell you.

You might also want to consider the fruits of an abusive government from the top down, racist British Israel theories, and non biblical tithes being paid to non-Levites. If by chance, you're not an old school WCGer, the oppressive gov't from the top down is still practiced in "the new" WCG. If indeed you have experienced blessings by being members of either new or old WCG, that is purely accidental, random happenstance, and possibly even denial and wishful thinking.

BB

Juan Rheinland said...

"Whatever happened to the understanding that it is GOD's responsibility and prerogative to deal with His people as He sees fit and on His timetable?"

What happened is that it was abandoned as unworkable since God never seems to get around to making anything right. The moment you hear a minister say, "God corrects me..."

Run! It's pure BS

Purple Hymnal said...

"I challenge all to re-examine the original doctrines of the Church of God without prejudice."

That's what we're all doing here, anon. So sorry you don't like our conclusions.

Purple Hymnal said...

""The blame for your problems should be focused where it belongs, on Satan the Devil."

Yes, Larry, I do focus my blame there --- taking into consideration the fact that the Demiurge (Satan or Saklas or Samael if you prefer) is the deity that the Worldwide Church of God worships.

Baashabob said...

Larry preacheth:
"Whatever happened to the understanding that it is GOD's responsibility and prerogative to deal with His people as He sees fit and on His timetable?"

This is fallacious reasoning and is classic response by the leadership of WCG and all its splinters. It is based on the erroneous assumption that WCG and its leadership and attendees are God's people. WRONG!!!

God's appointed leaders do not defraud, lie, cheat, steal or do many of the other things that are, and have been an everyday occurance in the cogs. And God's people don't allow themselves to be victims of such acts when abundant proof is made available to them.

When people delude themselves into thinking they are God's chosen and then continually make excuses for obvious evil they make it abundantly clear that they, and the ones they are covering for, are any but God's people.

Purple Hymnal said...

"It will come back on the bastards... in this life and the next."

No it won't. That's the part that really sucks. :-(

Purple Hymnal said...

Larry's "waiting for gawd" comment is the most depressing thing I have ever read on any of the ex-member boards, blogs or forums. It's more depressing than the suicide list, and I thought nothing could get more depressing than that.

larry said...

Purple Hymnal,
What is depressing is the evidence here that some have truly, truly lost their faith completely! This is somewhat reminiscent of the trial suffered by the young priest in "The Exorcist", and we all know how that turned out. (yes, it is fiction, but still applicable)

Mickey said...

Larry,

Not everyone who posts here has lost their faith in God, but most of us has lost faith in an organization that proclaimed itself the only true representative of God on earth.

We've re examined the evidence from HWA's own writings through the Tkach era behaviors. The whole history of such is rife with double talk, manipulation and at times down right deception. (And in that statement I'm only considering those things which can be established from their own records, not the observations of others)

I'm not sure how to express this and I'm likely not to get it right but for myself, prior to going through this process, I latched on the conceptual part of the teachings unique to HWA/WCG without examining the sources or end results. Forgive me if I'm mistaken but you seem to be doing the same.

Re-examining these things has been painful, but rewarding.

Purple Hymnal said...

Hey Larry,

At least you're allowed to watch The Exorcist. I never was. Still haven't seen it, to this day.

Anonymous said...

What's wrong with waiting for God to correct his chosen leaders is the same thing that's wrong with:

Romans 13 1 Everyone MUST SUBMIT himself to the governing authorities, for there is NO AUTHORITY except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established BY GOD. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against WHAT GOD HAS INSTITUTED, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers HOLD TERROR FOR THOSE THAT DO RIGHT, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you."

Both concepts are BS. There would have been no America if we abided by this and Hitler would have been God's chosen to rule for the good of the people. And God never corrects his chosen rulers. Dying of old age does not count.

These comments were added to demand obdience of christians to Rome , or they might kill you. However, it was always great in the OT to mock and blame the jews, because they could not hurt you. Never annoy those that can hurt you badly.

Anonymous said...

"...point out one major flaw in someone's belief system [and] they take it personally!"

- - Gordon Shumway

Anonymous said...

Reflecting on Byker Bob's words, it deeply saddens me to see people who are eager to live Godly submitting themselves to autocratic forms of church government. The forms might work under those rare leaders who insist on humbly serving their flocks, but those are unusual men. Judging by testimonies one reads here, lordship must have been a huge temptation for youngsters or small minded men with churches to pastor.

The family of Israel had permission to set up a king, but only on their own initiative; thus the people embodied the ultimate sovereignty and the king was forbidden to lord it over his brothers. His throne existed only by insistence of the governed, and he was to serve the kingdom -- most definitely a two-way street.

When David's grandson got too big for his britches, after the kingdom and dynasty had been established, God took the kingdom away from him vis-a-vie the initiative of a responsible tribe. They might have endured the new twit, but justly chose not to. They went on to do wrong after rejecting Rehoboam, but that was another matter altogether.

It was appropriate for the people to establish parameters to ensure that the new king would not repeat the inequities of his father. When the new king refused, the people had the right and responsibility to abandon the offending crown and establish a new government. This action was bound on earth and supported from heaven through the voice of a prophet.

LCG, UCG and others took similar action, or felt that they did, but virtually all of them, aside from the lunatic fringe, more or less stopped progressing intellectually to maintain a status quo at that point. Much more still needs fixing.

Inept ministers, made so by inept training, rely on ordination certificates and positions in the heirarchy rather than argue teachings to logical conclusions. No one should have to endure that nonsense. Once again God's people are undone by a lack of knowledge.

COG ministers aren't called "reverend," but they are certainly considered a Divine cut above the laity, which is an obscene falsehood. Therefore official doctrinal opinions hold sway no matter their idiocy and potential for harm. There is no Godly reason or precedent for tolerating that, yet congregants feel that God requires it of them because they've been taught as much.

Herbert Armstrong began with amazing promise, but he let the needs of "the Work," his pride, his loneliness and his carnality do him in. Late in life he made a huge repentance, his utmost -- but there was no longer time enough to heal all the wrongs. Too much needed serious fixing.

I don't for a second think he was a "con man." He had all the necessary gifts to be one, but I personally found him profoundly sincere and open, probably too open, about everything, both good and bad. And he was stubborn -- but he believed what he taught.

By the end of his life, there was neither time nor inclination to repair all that was wrong -- and not one of his beneficiaries, whether the new WCG or the spinoffs, is showing much promise at fixing things.

It's a very sad story, indeed. The story of a potentially great leader introducing fascinating new concepts, but also inadvertently misleading, sometimes rejecting desperately necessary doctrinal improvements out of hand. And there were the naive people, eager to live Godly, taking it all in without sufficient knowledge, confidence, courage, initiative or wisdom to properly accept truth or reject error. How does this happen in a free country, particularly when congregants are required to test and prove all things? Does the leadership even allow this level of integrity?

One should learn well from experiences like this.

Gavin said...

Anonymous: As you seem to indicate, dictatorship is still dictatorship even when its "benevolent." And what tyrant didn't consider himself a benevolent figure bravely taking the hard decisions?

But then you make an amazing claim: "Late in life he made a huge repentance, his utmost -- but there was no longer time enough to heal all the wrongs."

What evidence do you have for that? Armstrong talked a lot about repentance from his earliest days of ministry - of seeing himself as a used up hunk of useless junk, but the fruits of repentance just never seemed to follow. Dollars, yes; humilty, no.
How was it different at the end? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

Purple Hymnal said...

Gavin,

That last little screed smacks of a thinly-veiled "blame-the-victim" mentality, if you ask me.

Anonymous said...

'...COG ministers aren't called "reverend," but they are certainly considered a Divine cut above the laity, which is an obscene falsehood. Therefore official doctrinal opinions hold sway no matter their idiocy and potential for harm. There is no Godly reason or precedent for tolerating that, yet congregants feel that God requires it of them because they've been taught as much...'

The principles of leadership in use in CGOM (the Outreach Ministries) are outlined in the comprehensive article, Church Leadership, at www.cgom.org in the Articles sector

Anonymous said...

Gavin, you wrote, "But then you make an amazing claim: "Late in life he made a huge repentance, his utmost -- but there was no longer time enough to heal all the wrongs." What evidence do you have for that? ... How was it different at the end? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

In terms of church experience I only know what you know. HWA only knew enough to return to what he had learned and taught. He had allowed himself to drift from his own teachings.

After barely surviving his heart failure in Tucson, he was frightened into getting himself and the church "back on track." He did this to the best of his ability, but the track itself needed, and still needs, a major overhaul, something it would have taken another lifetime or two to accomplish.

Meredith and Hoeh saw Armstrong as a new Moses, answering only to God. But they ignored Joshua, Moses' successor, who had to consult Aaron for God's will. They ignored the secession of the northern tribes, initiated by the Ephraimite tribe, who possessed the birthright sovereignty and responsibility.

There is no end to what they and Mr. Armstrong ignored, even in the teachings of Jesus. This huge spiritual deficit led to my statement that there wasn't time enough (in his lifetime) for complete repentance. He only did what he knew how to do; it wasn't nearly enough -- but it was his personal best.

His personal best has become the inheritance of his spiritual beneficiaries, mainly the spinoffs, who are essentially maintaining the earlier status quo.

Anonymous said...

Over on Mark Tabladillo’s JLF forum, a contributor posted a link from the blog of Joey’s daughter, Stephanie, written several years ago, following a cruise (presumably wcg) with stops along the northeastern coast of the USA and Canada. Stephanie opines on the fact that on most of the trips she’s been on with her dad, he daily insists on finding pubs or other similar establishments to sample the beverages. In one of her entries, she said he drug the group along for nearly an hour and a half, searching for one particular pub, which he finally found. Is Joey a closet alcoholic? Makes one wonder.

Looks like Joey, Jr., is making good use of the tithepayers' donations - not!

Here's the posted link, and I did have to search a bit to find Stephanie's comments on the cruise trip.

http://www.xanga.com/the_one_and_only_apple?nextdate=9%2f25%2f2004+17%3a39%3a56.767&direction=

AnnMarie95

Anonymous said...

From PCG's Statement of Beliefs:

"Ministers are to be true servants to the membership and therefore must avoid extremes in lifestyle and lavishness."

For avoiding extremes, they seem to be doing very well at the low end...

Purple Hymnal said...

AnnMarie, it looks like Junior's little princess (They called her APPLE?! Wow.) has since expurgated the posts/comments to which you refer.

Anonymous said...

"AnnMarie, it looks like Junior's little princess (They called her APPLE?! Wow.) has since expurgated the posts/comments to which you refer."

No, they're still there. Scroll to the bottom of the page, click on 'previous 5' and wade through all the teenage verbiage.

Sorry I didn't give better directions the first time.

AnnMarie

Purple Hymnal said...

Hmmm. Try this link for Junior's kid's tale of horrifying privilege......

Anonymous said...

Stephanie Tkach's beer cruising blog entry, Anne Hanna's JLF comments about it and Tkach's new video are posted at AmbassadorReports

Anonymous said...

byker bob was not the first post on this thread. Why did you remove the earlier posts. Do you have an agenda?

Gavin said...

No posts have been removed since moderation. Maybe you got the threads confused.

Anonymous said...

BB's posting was the first on this thread. I remember it being so