Thursday 29 September 2016

BI threatens to bring down "Farmer Bill"

"Farmer Bill" Massey
William Massey was one of New Zealand's "great" prime ministers, serving in the nation's highest office for 13 years (1912-1925) and "widely considered to have been one of the more skilled politicians of his time."

He was also a 'true believer' in British Israelism, one of the most high profile advocates of his age, and a patron of the British Israel World Federation.

Down the road from where I live is Massey Park and Massey Avenue, both named after the great man. Massey University, with campuses in Palmerston North, Wellington and Albany, likewise commemorates the man who led New Zealand through World War 1, and is widely believed to be responsible - perhaps unfairly - for introducing the influenza epidemic to the country in 1918.

But it's Massey's BI influenced views on race that have risen to bite his reputation as researchers dig up his on-the-record statements.
"A racially-charged debate is igniting over research that has revealed "white supremacist" comments made by the prime minister Massey University is named after.
"Now, almost a century on, a top academic is calling for the university to consider a name change.
"The controversial call comes from Massey lecturer and recent PhD scholar Steve Elers, who was startled to uncover blatantly racist comments made by William Ferguson Massey." (Source)
Two quotes: "New Zealanders are probably the purest Anglo-Saxon population in the British Empire. Nature intended New Zealand to be a white man's country, and it must be kept as such"; and, "I am not a lover or admirer of the Chinese race. I should be one of the very first to insist on very drastic legislation to prevent them coming here in any numbers, and I am glad such is not the case."

Elers doesn't specifically mention BI - it's an increasingly obscure topic that almost nobody would would be aware of today - but he does say "he was surprised to discover Massey's beliefs".

Even granted that these were jingoistic times, Massey's BI-fueled racism stands out. I'm not sure I agree with Elers about expunging his name, we've arguably had worse individuals in that office. But for those who plead and whine that BI is not implicitly racist, exhibit A is at hand. Men's sins, it seems, follow them well beyond the grave.

That's a reality that those currently in the leadership of the various Churches of God, woefully clinging on to this bitter and hateful historical construct, might well consider.


Anonymous said...

Most Armstrongists would read what you just wrote and conclude that you do not understand BI. They would contend that BI is not racist at all. That God chose the Northwest European nations to bless the other nations of the world. And in their minds you would be a pitiful, uncomprehending critic of something that God created for humanity's good. I will write this view because they will not. They will just read what you wrote, classify it and move on. This is because your statements collide with a solid barrier of rejection built into their minds through years of indoctrination and a desire on their parts to believe this indoctrination.

The fact is, BI amounts to simple White Supremacist racism. And it is a proclivity of the peoples of Western Europe to believe in their own superiority - the Germans actually led the pack with their pseudo-science of race during WWII. Naziism is the German version and BI is the British version of the same thing. A movement to bring BI into conformity with the Nazi view was initiated when a school of thought emerged in Big Sandy that claimed that the Ashkenazi Jews (including apparently, Stanley Rader) are really Gentiles.

The Chosen People model has appealed to Western European groups throughout history. The Puritan Separatists who came to Plymouth in New England believed they were the Chosen People and that the millenium was about to begin. European South Africans also believed they were the Chosen People and they were to rule over the Black Africans.

Even a cursory examination would convince any reasonable mind that BI is about the supremacy of a certain group of white people. After a review of the belief, if there are any doubts, there are the undeniable findings of genetics. The Ashkenazi Jews are of Jewish descent and they British people decidedly are not.

Anonymous said...

I would like to see some leading Armstrongists, say Mark Armstrong and Don Ward, send a saliva smear off to one of the leading commercial genetics testing firms. I do not think the results would be surprising. There is a high probability that they are both haplogroup R1b-M269. The is the standard Celtics haplogroup found in the British Isles. (There is also an R1a signal that may have been imported with the Anglo-Saxons from the continent but is decided not a big influence in Britain. And R1a is found among the Scandinavians, but is of high frequency in central and eastern Germany and among the Slavic peoples.)

I have a Jewish friend whose father had a commercial genetics test. He is an Ashkenazi Jew. He is haplogroup J and possesses the Cohen Modal Haplotype. He is a real Jew. And there is no way that haplogroup R and haplogroup J could have emerged from a single person a few thousand years ago name Israel or Jacob.

If Ward and Armstrong are presented with this incontrovertible evidence on a piece of paper so they could look at it, what would their reaction be. A denial of reality? The invocation of more pseudo-science.

The Ashkenazi Jews possess a genetic connection to the Middle East in most cases. The Celts of Britain do not. BI has its place with astrology and other occult topics.

Minimalist said...

HWA figured out early on that he didn't really need high school (where he would have learned the basics of the academic method), he was above all that, he had "Herbert intuition" (in reality Delusion of Grandeur)

In fact this made him an easy mark for kooky 19th-century ideas and conspiracy theories like: British-Israelism, Pyramidology , Sabbath-Sunday Catholic conspiracy, Mark-of-the-Beast eschatology....

Anonymous said...

Herbert Armstrong was one of the kooks. Studying him is to embrace crackpotology.

British Israelism is inherently racist and that can be seen in Donna Kossy's book. Armstrongists are without excuse by this time, but some of them are so delusional that they fancy themselves to be journalists.

They may speak of having a sound mind but not only don't they have a sound mind, being members of a crazy cult, but thanks to Herbert Armstrong, they don't even have any of the tools to acquire one.

It's an addiction to idolatry which they should have learned to avoid but now can't leave.

Stop with the excuses already.

Hoss said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hoss said...

Many years ago in the Painful Truth Dennis Diehl posted the results of his DNA test, to show it wasn't what BI would have predicted. About the same time, there were some postings about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, with BI proponents' comments showing they didn't understand basic genetics.

At least Bob Thiel admitted he's not a descendant of the Lost 10. Someone posted that Jazz hands Bob must be a Reubenite.

Anonymous said...

I would say that the BI advocates do not want to understand basic genetics. If they admit science into their midst, the "Key to Biblical Prophecy" disintegrates.

My guess is that Diehl was haplogroup R1b-M269. Most British derived North Americans are. This is the standard Celtic haplogroup. Bryan Sykes of Oxford University pretty much killed the Anglo-Saxon myth. Either the Anglo-Saxons were also R1b or the invasion was much smaller than anyone thought because you can hardly find any genetic evidence of a Germanic presence in England. There is a little R1a but not much. Britain remains essentially a Celtic stronghold as does the Iberian Peninsula. (I wonder when Don Ward will require a separate "Fun Show" at the Feast for Hispanics and Blacks. Recapture true values!)

Somewhere on the web I saw a BI rendition of genetics. I think they had Noah producing offspring having diverse haplogroups. This betrays that they do not have even a rudimentary understanding of genetics. They don't understand how haplogroups are related and they do not understand how long it takes for them to develop and diverge.

The real issue is reading the account in Genesis as if it has a global scope when it has only a regional scope. Shem, Ham and Japeth did not give rise to all the people in the world (as if there are only three races). If they are not allegorical, they gave rise to only some racially homogenous haplogroup J clans in the middle east. We already know that the Canaanites, descended from Ham and therefore black according to many Christian writers including the BI ones, were really brothers to the Jews and were of the same haplogroup - haplogroup J.

But for racists it is a nice deal to be able to use all the language of the Bible that condemns the Canaanites and direct that towards the modern day African Americans. It also makes the South justified in the treatment of Blacks. So all the Armstrongist Southerners can be proud of the Confederacy and believe that it had God's endorsement. (A survey indicated that many Donald Trump supporters interpret "Make America Great Again" to mean the reinstitution of slavery or, at least, segregation.)

When you see how much these deluded people have invested in BI, it is easy to understand why they cannot find repentance. They instead want to take the monster, dress it up in a tuxedo and invite it to dinner and have it talk about White Supremacy. But they need to be careful. Sometimes monsters devour their hosts.

nck said...


It seems you don't even have a basic knowledge about what COG teaches on BI.
And still I would believe you if you said you were in a COG for over 30 years.
Most people really never understood Armstrongism as it was really taught.
I have no time to talk about the 50 points or so that are wrong in your assessment of COG.
Let me just start with 2 points.

1) Somewhere along the line you say something about Mark Armstrong and Celts being not Israel. As a matter of fact Mark Armstrong believes that the Celts are the house of Beth Omri or the Cymbri which are Celtic tribes. And I could go on and on but what's the use since it is all wrong anyway.

2) In your assessement you don't even seem to make the distinction between Israelites and Jews. And the BI claim that it was part of the Jews that left for Ireland way before the fall of Troy and the fall of Jerusalem by the Assyrians.

3) European equasion of the ROYAL BLOOD with the Jews goes back to the times of the Christian Crusades WITHIN Europe and the Kingdom of Septimania.

Later during the Reformation it was the ROYAL BLOOD that led the PROTESTANT NATIONS out of the EGYPT of the Holy Roman Empire with their pagan Roman Catholiscism equalling the Protestant Royal Houses with Moses that led the protestants out of catholicism.

Out of these same protestant nations WANDERING tribes emerged who wandered through "the barren land". Indeed South Africa, ("white tribes among the canaanites" ring a bell?) South America, Mennonites amongst the pagan Indians, North America finishing of the Indians, and the emergence of Mormonism and other TRIBAL idees of being special among the nations. (nation is a people by the way not a geographical association).

In the 19 the century the British can just not figure out how they have come to be the most blessed nation on earth ruling over most of the world population. Of course the blessing was entirely due to the Enfield rifle, just as it is by the nuclear weapon in posession of the western culture.

Then the protestant idea is revived that this blessing must have come from God favoring their nation, not by any deed of their own, but as a BURDEN. The white man's burden. Go west young man. Go to California, the Golden Land to strike rich.

II really don't get it where you get the information that the British are dominantly Celtic. Did you never hear about the ANGLO SAXONS. All Germanic Tribes from the mainland invited by the Romans and their brothers to fight the painted men and live on the land as allies. British ARE GERMANIC or at least SAXONS.

The comparison between BI and Nazism is stupid.
BI spawned benign Armstrongism, but it also spawned KKK, especially in the ALL WHITE state of OREGON which to KKK in the CAROLINA's and GEORGIA was NORTH EAST from their state. So look at the 1920 ALL white laws of PORTLAND OREGON and KKK mayors in the NORTH EAST.

This was influenced on an intelectual level by those taught in YALE in the 1920's. Yale being the sole producer of personel of the STATE DEPARTMENT of the USA.

It was the State Department that helped hwa on his missions to Establish Ambassador College in Locarno opposite the swiss CIA base observing the faschist Italians and later helped announce the rise of the American Empire with its ROD of IRON and the UNseEN hand of Liberal trade.

This BI influence lasted until the Soviet Union collapsed and Ronald Reagan finally ordered the ending of the support of South Africa Aparheid regime which he FULLY supported until that time. (despite the laws he adopted against it) This is how it works.

Now it is the time of the gentiles and with an Israeli population which is more than half Russian the idea that the Jews are not really Jews comes in extremely well to end the occupation of Jerusalem which is according to International Law an International City not part of Israel.

All of what I said can be looked up in the best Universities of the Land.


Anonymous said...

DNA evidence is not the only collection of facts debunking British Israelism: The Bible itself debunks it, as does Archeology (by real Archeologists), Linguistics, history and several other 'proofs'.

British Israelism is a really stupid alternative earth history science fiction which never happened.

It is also racisist... BUT... the racism varies within differing versions of BI. For example, one is quite anti Semetic (Armstrong's is not).

It's a cult sub religion and is thoroughly debunked by the journalistic efforts of Donna Kossy rendering a rich tapestry of crackpotology in "Kooks: A Guide to the Outer Limits of Human Belief". Herbert Armstrong is specifically mentioned in Chapter 3 in the history of British Israelism as a Kook.

Attempting to support British Israelism instantly identifies the supporter as being a kook.

Anonymous said...


Where do I begin? Most of what you wrote is not only wrong but bizarrely wrong. I would take time to answer each of our objections in detail but I do not believe the ideas you expressed are orthodox BI and I don't want to waste time on an extreme one-off.

I might add that it is typical of Armstrongists to put on the mantle of Herman Hoeh, cite the compendium and get even the pseudo-history that Hoeh wrote wrong.

Let me take one issue - the racial distinction between the Israelites and the Jews. There is none. The Jews do not believe there is such a distinction and I do not believe there is such a distinction. It is not possible at the recent date of 1500 BC for a man named Jacob to have a child that is haplogroup R1b (Joseph) and another child who is haplogroup J (Jews) without a non-parental event (hanky-panky). Please pick up a book on Genetics and red about this. I cannot explain it to you in this small space. Try the book "Saxons, Vikings and Celts" by Bryan Sykes of Oxford University. This will also explain why the concept of "Anglo-Saxon" is very weak.

If you believe that the Trojans were Jews because Herman Hoeh connected the name Dardanus with Darda in the OT without any other historical evidence, then I doubt that you can undertake any kind of serious historical research. Just so you will know, Hoeh viewed and wrote history teleologically - he shaped and formed it (using all kinds of unsupported devices such as similarities in names)to underpin BI an to support Herbert. Hoeh was not a historian but a propagandist.

Again, Don Ward and Mark Armstrong are not descended from Israel. They are R1b Gentiles derived from the Indo-European speaking peoples. They are not a part of what the OT refers to as the Chosen People racially. BI is a falsehood perpetrated by early British racists and then finally HWA. A good, readily available genetics test will substantiate their genetic status. And any scientist trained and educated in genetics can attest to their non-Hebrew ancestry if you can get him to stop laughing at the question.

Anonymous said...

Neo, don't be surprised if some of the BI support given here recently happens to have an Australian flavor.

nck said...

Neo, I said what hoehist bi theorist claim. Not what I claim. I second your 2nd post on genetics. Except that celts are distinctly different from the swedes and northern germans who are saxons.

Most of what I wrote is 100% right.


nck said...

My point is that bi built on an older 17th century theory from the reformation that in turn built on mediaevel theories. All wrong of course like the 17th century throry that the jews fled to vienna over the danube. This is all recorded in 17th century habsburg document. But it is just monks having no access to science as we have it developed now giving meaning to their current political status inthe 15th century.


nck said...

Hoeh used monastic 17th and 6th century sources. You of all people should understand that the monks were propagandists too. So we have a protestant cult in full support of catholic propagandists for their christian kings trying to seek legitimisation for their status on a linkage to a pedigree linking to the jews or even jesus christ himself. That is also why hitler ss forces were looking for artefacts like the spear of destiny. Indiana jones is not complete fiction. Bi is just the scratch of what drives the rulers of this world. They are paymasters of who most consider elected officials.
Since you consider uourself well versed. You must be able to remember how often hwa spoke about his meeting with henry ford. I thank you for the book you recommemded. I recommemd you read a book on henry ford and his beliefs and while you re at it go watch charlie wilsons war to understand more about hwa and stanley rader and my world.


nck said...

My point about the distinction was not to prove a ditinction. I mentioned it because most people who read b&us in prophecy missed the point where hea said that hundreds of years before the assyrian invasion a group of jews left for ireland. This is actually the distinctive point between hwa and other bi. Hwa was not about genetics of an entire people. Hwa ministry was about a kingly line. All bi, pseodo jewry and especially german assyrianism which has abraham foundinh vienna and assyrians founding trier are all inventions to support and legitimize the elites of their time.

People believed those theories in their time. I am clarifying this since you are focussing on a branch of which i hope will help you to discover what the myths and drivers of our current elites are. I wont go into those drivers. But they might not be so different from the ones of the past. Just hide if someone is claiming a pedigree related to jesus or the mahdi. All kings claim pedigree to either jesus or muhammed. Except for the japanese emperor who is god himself.


nck said...

And most us presidents claim pedigree to kings. Even obama. So there is a full circle. I am exactly right about all i said. Just the fact that you never researched what i say doesnt remotely make my claim off. Mine are not theories. It is recorded science. Just as your genetics is science.


Scroller said...

NCK, when you write above: "It was the State Department that helped hwa on his missions to Establish Ambassador College in Locarno opposite the swiss CIA base observing the faschist Italians"

Do you have any evidence for a State Department role in HWA's trip or are you pulling this out of your hat?

HWA's Swiss trip, according to what Howard Clark told me, happened like this: HWA had the local church members in Eugene, Oregon put the church assets in the name of God, as a charitable organization, and when HWA decided to leave Eugene he sold the assets as God's representative and used the assets to take a trans-Atlantic cruise for wife Loma and himself, as part of which he visited a location in Switzerland as a possible site for AC. Possibly the details are garbled but that was the gist of it the way Clark told me. The Swiss location for AC never happened.


nck said...


Thank you for the additional information. I admit to using hyperbole on occassion to get people who really know what they talk about (like you) to share their information.

The help hwa got was extremely limited I immediately admit. It was limited to the visa for himself and Loma. Since he and she especially only decided on the trip on very short notice. And they needed to pull strings at the state department in order to obtain the boat ticket and visa. Through a (journalist) friend working there they obtained the necessary documents just in time. Although there was trouble in New York too with customs.

You are more right than I am. Even still in Switzerland hwa actually liked Geneva better than Locarno for its status as an international place of diplomacy and the existing educational infrastructure.
I find it interesting to see how his original concept of AC was with only few members in Oregon he was already thinking of establishing a base in the heart of international diplomacy and education.

It was on this trip that he renewed some contacts with the Saudis also, which came in handy on his later Egyptian trips.

I never really knew what Mr Apartian's work at the American Embassy in Bern during WWII comprised of. Perhaps he was just a simple desk clerk or postman as a non American citizen. If you have information on that I would find it interesting. The American Embassy at the time was the hub of information flow, diplomacy and espionage between the Germans and Axis powers during the war through indirect channels. In any case when they met later in life there was an immediate kindred spirit.

To stay on topic. Mr Apartian of course wrote an entirely different version of US &B in prophecy which was directly aimed at the French speaking "celts".

So to summarize I hugely exagerated on the state department's role. But it certainly was not a cruise. It was business for hwa.


nck said...

Sir Scroller,

First of all my apoligies for mixing the cities of Locarno with Lugano. It was Lugano.

You asked me a direct question.
I feel obliged to given a direct answer.

The problem was the 30 day administrative procedure whereas hwa had planned the trip 6 days in advance and initially Loma was not going to join because of her grandmothers 5 siblings who died in a shipwreck during their immigration to the usa. Nothing like a cruise.

In the afternoon I waited a long while in the office of the State Department Press
Officer until he returned, about 4:30 p.m. He was glad to see me again, and immediately
called the passport office across the street, asking them to process my passport at once."

They told me our passports would be ready in the morning. I happened to show them
my State Department credential card which I carried.
“If you had just shown us that,” I was told, “we would have put through your
passports earlier in the day, and you could have had them before now.”
It was necessary to obtain visas to cross France, and to enter Switzerland"


Scroller said...

NCK, thanks for clarifying. The "State Department credential card" mentioned in the quotation from HWA you cite--that sounds related to a different account of HWA telling of his attending the founding of the United Nations in San Francisco with press credentials. Since this visit to the "State Department Press Officer" in the excerpt you cite occurs in the context of the Europe trip, it looks to me like HWA somehow was presenting himself to the State Department in his capacity as a journalist, either as the Plain Truth editor reporting news, or as the World Tomorrow news broadcaster. Today, I suppose such credentials would get one into press conferences, access to public officials to conduct interviews, and such. In this particular case it looks like HWA was trying to solve a bureaucratic visa or passport problem and sought assistance from a State Dept. Press Officer (the officer on duty at State Dept. who dealt with the press) to cut through and expedite his needs with the visa problem, and the officer was helpful.

That's what I make of it or conjecture as the reconstruction anyway.

Scroller said...

Also NCK, you're right on Dibar Apartian having a different version of British-Israelism. Apartian's version was found in a WCG church publication put out in French (Les pays de langue Francaise selon la prophetie) and claimed the ancient Israelites became the Celts as you note. I do not believe that was ever published in English, and would not have been known to most English-speaking WCG members. Herbert Armstrong's better-known "United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy" had the Celts' conquerors, the Anglo-Saxons, as the descendants of the ancient Israelites. There was of course also the British-Israelites' tale of the Davidic throne succession with Jeremiah taking Zedekiah's daughters to Ireland to marry into Irish nobility and thereby claiming the Queen of England descends from David today. All of this was inherited from British-Israelism.

Later HWA had a meeting with the aged Ethiopian dictator Haile Selassie and told of it. According to legend it was claimed that Haile Selassie was descended from Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. HWA told of his first words to Selassie when they met, of telling Haile Selassie that he, HWA, also was descended from David. HWA reports that Selassie did not wait for the translator but answered HWA in English, "Well, why not?" and everyone laughed. From the way HWA wrote it I imagine HWA as momentarily mystified as to why the laughter. To HWA he meant it perfectly seriously--he was descended from David. Haile Selassie's reaction suggests that maybe Haile Selassie knew the Davidic ancestry was something short of secure history even in his own case, and HWA was coming across like a crackpot seriously claiming the same. As I recall HWA said he joined in the laughter, perhaps not realizing the laughter was at him.

This reminds me of a true account I read written by a reporter who inquired of the staff of Egyptian president Gamal Abdul Nasser concerning a detail of fact for a news story, where Nasser was born, since there were two stories circulating, one that he was born in Cairo, and another less flattering story that he was from some tiny village not in Cairo. The journalist received his answer in a handwritten note from a minister in Nasser's government: "The President prefers to have been born in Alexandria".

Scroller said...

Typo in the last paragraph above: Strike "Cairo", it should be "Alexandria".

nck said...


You are not playing my game. That is. I introduce theories, then everyone denounces me as crazy and ridiculous. Then the webmonitor steps in. I leave frustrated and everyone is relieved and reconfirmed on all their former prejudices and half truthes on Armstrongism.

You force me to specify which is a rare occurence.

You are right.
I guess hwa was press credentialled by the state department. So the passport officials said there was no need for the state department official to step in.
He made a great career from press credentialled in 1946 to sitting at the UN head table during the 1985 anniversary celebrations. (or 1984 whatever). In between hobnobbing to the Paris Unesco headquarters (from the belgian elites, leaving with the GII at 11.30 from Brussels) And Stanley leaving 3 hours before from Brussels on a commercial flight in advance to Paris to "make preparatory arrangements in the hotel". That is one the most "inefficient stories on wastefulness I ever heard." A lot of people consider the hoarding of treasures in Pasadena and Tuscon a waste but in reality ALL of the items had increased in value over time. So those were actually the best decisions ever made in WCG.

For the third time: According to hwa, zedekiahs daughters married into Irish nobility that was ALREADY Israelite. Thereby healing an ancient rift.

I really enjoy your story on Haile Selassie. The secretary of Haile Selassie extensively wrote about that meeting. I believe it was during one of the meetings in Ethiopia (former Italian Colony bordering on the former British Posessions Kenya and Egypt) that hwa decided to fund the then "start up" WorldWildlife Fund, or got his first invitation to speak in Communist China. Anyhow I guess Haile Selassie could not imagine hwa with Rastafarian hairdo and a joint, perhaps "brutha from another motha", (re Solomon the guy with the 2000 wives? So yes why not. Most of the White population in the Western World is related to "travelling man Charlemaine", I mean it's brutally cold at night in Europe except if......)

Funny how some crackpots are trying to find the Arc of the covenant in Ireland, whereas Haile Selassie would have readily shown you a wooden case in Timkat.

What's next.
Japanese intelligence taking an interest in groups claiming world domination as promised by their Gods as a "chosen people", based on the same ideology, theory and religious practices that brought their people 2 atomic bombs and their downfall. Or the mideeaval monks of Vienna having to deal with the reality of a large jewish population in the surroundings and making up an explanation that the Assyrian princes and Abrahams Assyrian wife/princess must have brought them there over the Black Sea through the Danube before founding the city of Trier.

I think I am pretty clear on where I stand on these theories of legitimizing unelected officials and royal bloodlines to uneducated massses. Actually perhaps the masses didn't even know about this and it was a legitimization of the elites themselves. Kind of like inner knowledge of student fraternities of which the common people have no knowledge except the members. An unbreakable bond is created until someone like Lenin pops the bubble or they are stupid enough to blow themselves to pieces. "honey I shrunk the church"


Kathleen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kathleen said...

nck, Herbert Armstrong states in the May 1958 Plain Truth Autobiography that he did NOT (sorry, I'm not shouting, it's just that I'm not HTML literate) meet Henry Ford. He met John R. Lee, who developed the $5/day wage plan that the Ford factory adopted.

nck said...

Ouch... Kathleen,

Thank you very much for improving my performance.
I must find another source then for the "Rockefellerian" industrial markets seeking worldview.

You are right I'm 20ft off :-).
In the same paragraph you cite he compares HF to God though.