This is likely, highly likely, to be the final Ambassador Watch or Otagosh posting. Those who know me as more than a cantankerous blogger also know that I've been fighting, without great success, a serious health situation. In the time I have left there are clearly other priorities, and I commend Gary's blog as a great place to keep "in the loop".
I guess I want to say that there's very little I regret. If I've horribly offended anyone unjustly, I apologize. There are a lot of good people in the COGs, battling on, as we all do, according to our best insights. The blogs will stay up, for what they're worth, even if only curiosity value.
Special thanks to everyone who has engaged in creative conversation here.
Gavin.
239 comments:
1 – 200 of 239 Newer› Newest»Thank you so much for all you have done for us trying to make sense of what happened to us.
I wish you well in regarding your health and hope things go well for you.
Gavin, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with all of us. Thank you too for providing these forums for people to discuss issues of interest and/or importance to them. I hope that it is a source of some comfort, satisfaction and pride for you to know that you have helped so many folks work through and come to terms with their time in Armstrongism. May God bless you on the road ahead - wherever it may take you.
Your site is even fun just watching the flags pop up from all exotic capital cities of the world and remote areas from the top of Canada to Arabia and Ukraine and other places with 12 hours of darkness and you shine a light. Good luck to you!
nck
We all appreciate your efforts and the one thing that you can take with you is that you have enriched our lives.
Gavin, I am so sorry to read this farewell. Thanks for always using your gifts for the greater good. I will miss your posts, and will always think of you as one of the best of us.
Dear, Sweet Gavin (I know your detractors will disagree with that greeting...) My heart is breaking. You have been a sane, sensible voice in the wilderness for so long, able to write strong words that could cut to the core, but without bitter hatefulness. And with obviously a TRUE "heart of gold" that only your detractors could miss seeing. You have "ministered" to so many confused, hurting people far more than any of the fellows with "papers" who call themselves "ministers" ever could, including by giving so many a place to unload their feelings and thoughts and get encouragement from others of like mind.
May your path be smoothed as much as possible through whatever is ahead of you.
Thanks for your enduring effort in this and other regenerations of your COG-critique websites, which provided a safe meeting place for former COG members around the world.
When I first noticed this late last night, it left me at a loss for words. Gavin, you and your blogs have always been a much needed voice of sanity, reason, and moderation. They have also been the go to place for people of intellect in search of answers (but always finding that there are so many more questions). You've made us a partner to your own personal odyssey, and we are edified by the ride.
You are in my prayers. Keep the faith!
BB
Gavin:
What a wild and wonderful journey we had together with Ambassador Watch and your other blogs. You have helped so many leave the cultish nonsense of Armstrongism behind and take a leap of faith out of the quagmire. The detractors may have a field day with this news, but they have never been able to recover from the dissolution of the church into meaningless little splinter groups. We are all here to walk along side you at this point in time. God's speed!
Gary
Gavin, you will be missed.
Thank you, Gavin, for helping me recover from Armstrongism. You were a voice of sanity and reason (and good humor) when I really needed one. You helped make my life better and I will always be grateful.
Glenn Parker
Austin, Texas
Gavin,
Back in the mid 90's I began to seek the answers to why I felt armstrongism was unnatural.
It was Ed and Gavin that convinced me to finally think about my decision to remain in the lie of armstrongism. I never thought that the real 'church of god' could actually be a financial scam. It was. Thank God for the Internet.
Gavin, I wish you well my friend! Gary and I will keep an eye on little bobby and make sure he don't hurt himself.
This is a damned shame. All strength to you for the future.
Gavin I hope you quickly recover from whatever illness you are fighting. I've said this before, but I will say it again, that your blog saved my life. I mean this metaphorically and also literally. Metaphorically in that your paper on the Canon was the tipping point which finally forced open my eyes to the falsehoods of Christianity and of armstrongism. And literally in that I was rapidly approaching the point where I was going to kill myself due to the hopelessness and depression instilled in me from years in the church. I had already gathered the "equipment" needed for a clean suicide....but finding your articles, and the articles of others like the old XCG blog and also Dennis, pulled me back from the abyss and introduced me to a community where I could heal. And I'm 100% certain there are others out there like me who owe you a similar debt of gratitude.
Thank you, Gavin. I hope one day we can meet in person and I can buy you a beer or a cup of tea.
Gavin,
I was saddened to hear of your heath problems. I wish you well, and sincerely hope that you may be able to successfully combat this health problem.
You and I have not always agreed on this blog, but I have always considered you a voice of reason and fairness. You certainly helped open my eyes to aspects of our shared historic past.
We have taken different paths. I have a different view of the Bible to you – but that’s fine, I believe we are both sincere in our beliefs.
I attend one of the COGs, but with eyes wide open. I know that there are no financial scams where I am attending. I also know most of the ‘problem areas’ of the past have been overcome. But that is not the case everywhere.
We all of us live our lives without seeing clearly – that is the human condition.
I would be please to meet you personally, over a drink of some sort. This is unlikely in this life, as you live in New Zealand, the other side of the world from me.
However, I am convinced that we can schedule that drink some day, in a world where everyone can see clearly, a world where the old prejudices have been replaced with love and harmony, and together mankind can look forward to the adventures to come.
Thank you Gavin
Gavin:
In the forum you have provided with your knowledgeable and articulate blog journalism, you have done much good. You have helped us to parse through and begin to process the hard and painful issues. It may be too much to ask, but I hope we will see a few essays from you in the future.
Vielen Dank.
The best to you,
Neo
Well, well, well. Those that have read my comments here and elsewhere know that I am not noted for any sentimentality, but for analysing cause and effect. Cicero observed, "we must be able to see the effects, while they are still in the womb of their causes."
I must confess that even I, with the eyes of an eagle, don't always see the effects, but God, in his mercy, often closes the womb before it gives birth to effects that would overwhelm me. Thereby protecting me from the consequences of things I might say or do.
Sadly, others have not been that blessed, so they have said things about God servants and his word that have been very foolish.
I am very sorry to hear this Gavin. In the words of Quakers, I and others will be holding you in the light. Greg Doudna
Tom Mahon is another delusional crackpot. Typical armstrongist.
Gavin,
I thank you so much for this labor of love you have been devoting yourself to for many years now. The time is now for you to devote to yourself for your health and life priorities.
There was a time in my life when I would wake up in my Maryland home, get a cup of coffee, and hit your blog first thing in the early morning for the latest developments in the Armstrong Church of God movement. For you see, you fulfilled a need in my life trying to figure out "what happened" to me in this religion I grew up in. For you see, I left in 1976 to the estrangement of friends and family left in the Worldwide Church of God. I never returned, and built a whole new life outside the Church known to me as "God's Church". There was a knowledge gap of decades in my mind about the events that happened in Church after I left in 1976. Ambassador Watch filled in those knowledge gaps and gave me "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say. You would post about topics I remembered growing up and about people who I remembered.
My hats off to you Gavin! I join many others to express my sincere appreciation for your work. I wish you well, and your health situation sounds very serious. Approach it as if it were the fight of your life. Never give up! Never! Keep fighting! Never give up!
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
Terribly saddened to hear this, Gavin. Your blog was, by far, the best of the COG-critique bunch. My prayers, for what they are worth, are with you as you face that which we all must face.
Best wishes, Gavin, and thanks for your inspiration through the years. I am saddened to hear you are fighting disease, and hope the very best.
Thanks for your service over the years. I'm sad to hear of your health going south. May your battle with your illness be as sucsessful as your sites have been. I shall add you to my prayers .
May God carry you over the sand in your time of need
Stephen aka BlindDude
Our quasi-government healthcare systems seem to, of necessity, ration service, telling me PSA tests are not warranted, and not screening for pancreatic tumors - even though I have long-standing pancreatitis! (a neglected condition mainly in affluent countries)
Thanks for all you have done... May you be blessed now and forever more....
Where is Dennis the deluded and Douglas the deranged to comment on Gavin's condition? I suspect they may have long been blended with common earth.
Opinionated said: "Tom Mahon is another delusional crackpot."
Well, the day of judgement will reveal who were the crackpots. I am happy to wait until that day before sticking a label on you.
Wait! What?!
I have the 4th comment.
I second the "Tom Mahon is another delusional crackpot" after his inability to read through the comments already here, as one who is so narcissistic as not to pay one shred of attention to what anyone else has to say.
He should pray I not take notice of his folly and begin a new project....
And the day of judgment, for anyone who has like, you know, really read the New Testament, is TODAY! I don't quote the Scripture because the person to whom I am referring is a functional atheist, neither knowing or believing what the Bible really says.
Tom Mahon. Illegitimate, unethical, delusional, and without a conscious. The smiling face of a fool.
Please. Have a little compassion here and take your mud slinging off site. That includes you, Tom Mahon. What kind of man suggests that God is avenging him by giving someone a fatal illness. Please, everyone involved in this (including you, Minimalist, about your poor experiences with medical insurance) do a little self-policing for once and remove your comments. This ought to be a place where friends can say goodbye to Gavin.
Agreed, Kathleen. Surely, common sense and human decency would seem to mandate that there are occasions when agendas should be suspended. We were taught a lot about character and will power in our past shared philosophy, but my how some can be so selective in applying them!
BB
This is not a help to Gavin who has done such a great job as a service.
But this does speak to Armstrongism and in the end, this demonstrates what this blog has been about: Revealing the truth for the aid and benefit of those who are in need.
Gavin has given us many things that no one else could.
My greatest appreciation was his revelation that British Israelism was stupid, silly and bunk. That transformed my life for the better, and I will always be especially grateful for that.
Minimalist .. poor experiences with medical insurance
Even Steve Jobs missed pancreatic screening,
and I presume he had 'Cadillac' healthcare.
Focusing on the pancreas may seem like 'contemplating one's navel',
but that's where it hurts, just above the navel!
COGites should have this checked after many wine-soaked FOTs.
Not all can tolerate alcohol like Olympic Drinking Champ HWA.
I hope everyone will just SHUT UP if they don't have something kind and relevant to say in this situation. There is a time and place for everything. This is a time for saying good bye. With KINDNESS and CONCERN. Not that Gavin is going to see what anyone is putting on here...
Gavin happens to be to my friend list on Facebook. This post came in from him this morning.
"Dying is just such a damn stupid thing. Last term relief teaching, now lying in a hospice bed wondering whether I'll wake up. Lenva and Petrina visiting tomorrow. Asked Lenva to bring a beer, suggestion of Cancer Society nurse of all people, lol. Dealing with immobility, but necessary indignities. No choice, but no pain thankfully."
Pam,
How old Is Gavin anyway? I know most of us are heading up to that age where we all get sick and go our way. A damned shame Gavin has to go so soon. I enjoy his blog, and learned so much that helped me through those times of doubt in the past.
Tom Mahon exemplifies all the utter filth of Armstrongism. He and Bob Thiel should be married. They deserve each other. Two insensitive lying bastards
NO2HWA,
Are you advocating for an interracial, homosexual marriage between 2 self-righteous pompous self proclaimed armstrongphiles?
I've never known exactly how old Gavin is, but I'm guessing early 60s. Here's a link to a relatively recent photo of him.
Gavin Rumney
If I've encouraged just one Harmstrongite, cajoled into using alcohol by HWA, to get Liver & Pancreas tests, that would be a good thing.
Anyone who attacks me is just harming him or herself, as my angel always beholds the face of my father who is in heaven.
I don't personally have anything against Gavin, as I don't know him. But over the past ten years or so, he spoke very ill of Mr Armstrong, the Apostle Paul and in his last post on Otagosh, he implied that the book by Grayling was better than the bible. That is blasphemy.
In addition, any time I posted a reply to much of the theological nonsense that Gavin supported, he moderated out my comments. At one time, he even blocked me from posting to his blog, while allowing idiots like Dennis, Douglas and all the others who are now saying what a nice guy he is or was.
Well, according to God, Gavin was not a nice guy, for he was hostile to God's servants, and promoted theological heresy over the wholesome teachings of the bible.
So, he and his supporters have got some surprises coming, and I can assure him and them, they won't be pleasant.
Tom Mahon, I believe we have sparred here on Ambassador Watch in years past. What a bunch of puke you posted at 17:26. If Gavin spoke ill of Mr. Armstrong, it was because time has proven Mr. Armstrong a fraud and the truth was not with him. My history with Herbert Armstrong dates back to the 1950s - probably longer than yours.
This blog post is about honoring Gavin. It is not about arguing Armstrongism. You don't know what God thinks, and you're certainly not the Judge and Jury. I am reminded that "MANY (including Herbert Armstrong and Tom Mahon) shall come in MY name, and shall deceive MANY".
Get your head out of your rear end, and climb back into the hole where you came from. This is not the venue and the time for your self righteousness.
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
Father, we ask that you would heal and forgive Tom Mahon, who has been rendered toxic by false teachers, and knows not the evil that he is doing.
We also ask that you would continue to watch over our friend Gavin in this, his time of need.
In your Son Jesus' name we pray.
Amen.
BB
Amen.
Amen. Beautiful prayer, BB. Thanks.
Richard, I do remember your name popping up in some of the discussions. All that you said then was nonsense, and nothing has changed.
I don't need Byker Bob's prayers, as Jesus has already prayed for me. And if Gavin is relying on Byker Bob prayers for healing, his family may as well plan his funeral.
Tom, I've said all that I have to say. It seems like a good idea to leave you talking with dead air space at this point. Beer and chips in the Kingdom.
BB
RIP, Gavin.
As Kathleen noted, Gavin died mid-afternoon (New Zealand time) Thursday December 15, 2016. Thanks to those who had kind words to say of him.
RIP, Gavin Rumney. Thanks again for all you have done to help us. We will always remember you.
Well, it is not the end, yet! In the day of judgement, he will still have to come face to face with Jesus Christ to give an account for all the blasphemy he posted on his blog.
Those of you that supported his attacks of Mr Armstrong, the Apostle Paul and God himself, have got some surprises coming, and can assure you, they won't be pleasant.
God will not hold him guiltless, who takes his name in vain!
Tom wrote: "Those of you that supported his attacks of Mr Armstrong, the Apostle Paul and God himself, have got some surprises coming, and can assure you, they won't be pleasant."
Prove it asshole.
Rave on, Tom. We've all dismissed you as being one of the mentally unstable cultie crazies, so nobody is taking your vile comments seriously.
If you loved Mr. Armstrong, you should be worried about whether he will be in the Kingdom. We read quite a bit in the Bible concerning the fate of false prophets. I and my church friends and siblings all grew up having been taught that the Germans were coming in 1972, and Jesus would return in 1975. Then when that did not happen, HWA and the church lied and said they had never set dates. But, we had even been taught three math equations in Ambassador College Second Year Bible Class "proving" that the end would happen in 1975.
It was not wrong of Gavin to expose HWA for his error and false teaching, and it was also not wrong for the rest of us to add our testimonies and to discuss it all further. Truth clearly appears not to be on your side, and your tapdance on Gavin's grave makes it obvious that you lack the Christ like attribute/gift/fruit of compassion. You are expressing as certainty things that you cannot possibly know.
To any of Gavin's surviving loved ones who may be maintaining this site: If this is your first exposure to Tom Mahon, please know that Tom is just a kook. Nothing he says should be taken seriously. Don't be concerned or spend any time worrying over anything Tom says, but instead, join the rest of us and pity him. And now, sit back and watch as he gets destructive, and digs himself deeper into the hole, because he literally can't help himself.
BB
Gavin had a cat, and in my book, it showed that he was truly one of the good guys.
I suspect that those who come to take advantage of his death hate cats. Traditionally, the Armstrongist 1% has hated cats and in the United States, they were largely Republican dog owners. I surmise that is because they could never tolerate any creature that is independent and they cannot stomach any domestic companion that will not be subservient to them in abject devoted obedience -- the very same way they want their congregations to act. They can't tolerate anyone or anything that would do anything they don't sanction exactly when they want it.
Dogs lap it up.
Cats won't stand for it.
It takes a kind liberal tolerant soul to live with a cat, which makes it such an important detail to know about Gavin.
I agree with Byker Bob's last statement and have only a little to add.
* Gavin was willing to face the hard issues. This was a special courage. He was not doctrinaire or creedal. He did not hide from God behind Phariseeism.
* Since Tom Mahon is an Armstrongite, let us "answer a fool according to his folly." Armstrongites consider Tom Mahon to be a Canaanite. He is servant or slave class and his words on any advanced spiritual topic should be disregarded. He needs to be micro-managed by White Israelites and is not trustworthy on his own. This is not only the COG view of him it is also God's view, whether his angel beholds the face of God or not. Tom lost out for eternity because was born black into the reality of a God who is racially White. He is a spiritual Jew but not nearly up to par with native Israelites forever.
I do no like sounding this note of controversy during this time that should be solemn and respectful. But I think Gavin would get a chuckle out of this. He was ever a magnet for controversy and saw his role as exposing the bizarreness of Armstrongism. I disagreed with him on genuine Christianity but I respected his view and I knew it was something that he carefully considered and did not pull out of his hip pocket. He highlighted where Christianity needed to get its act together and mostly he was right.
As a non-evangelical and mainstream Christian (with a Quaker flavor) I believe that God easily accommodates people like Gavin. Based on what Jesus said when he was here, I think it is much more difficult for God to accommodate modern day pharisees.
NeoTherm
That's kind of disturbing stuff that I'd forgotten, Neo. I know Gavin loved Tom, as do we all, and we're going to want to be sure that Tom has made it into the Kingdom, too. It's just going to be difficult to know, because Tom's cities will be in Africa.
I also hope Herbie makes it. I'll even help him polish the Pope's sandals if that's his lesson in humility.
BB
What type of cancer was it, anyone know?
Neo Therm,
The doctrine that the desendances of Canaan were cursed is biblical, and is evident to anyone who is not blind. The African people do not have the ability to develop the resourses that are under their feet, and even after hundreds of years of association with Britain and American, they still have not learn enough to manufacture products out the raw materials that are in abundance in Africa. That inability is an obvious curse.
The problem was and still is, the white members of WCG used that knowledge to discriminate against the black members, which is contrary to the revelation given to the Apostle Paul, which states thus: "For we are all the children of God...There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for we are all one in Christ Jesus(Gal,3:28). "All one," means one spirit. For Paul was inspired to write: "He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit"(1 Cor.6:17). And the spirit is not flesh and blood, so it is neither black nor white, you might be surprised to learned.
Furthermore, the reason for much of the madness that existed in WCG, was because Mr Armstrong's dispensation was the Laodicaen era of the church, with its emphasis on materislism, which blinded it to spiritual understanding. Plus the American racism of the 40s and 50s was carried over into the church by people who were not converted. That is why God spewed the church out of his mouth, as it was neither cold nor hot.
Finally, the curse of Canaan may disturb some black people, if they know about it, who blamed all of their problems on slavery and racism. But it has no affect on me, for I was predestinated, to be called, called to be justified, justified to be glorified.
Personally, I didn't have anything against Gavin. He just rushed to his keyboard to disparage people and things that he never understood, and he will reap the consequences, and his supporters will follow in his footsteps. I say that by the authorit of Almighty God!
Where is the depressed the Dennis and the deranged Douglas, who used to attack me here? My angel, who always beholds the face of my father, who is in heaven, may have been sent to deal with their insanity!
Neo Therm
I apologise for the couple of typos, but they don't adversely affect the meaning of my post.
Tom:
Your post is highly idiosyncratic and is outside the pale of orthodox Armstrongism. And, of course, you have no authority to speak for God. That is facetious.
-- NeoTherm
Oh, now, NeoTherm, if Tom wants to give the middle finger to God by violating the Third Commandment and take God's Name in vain, who are we to stop him?
Neo Therm,
I didn't think you would understand my reply to your attempt to disparage Mr Armstrong, because he taught, from the bible, that the descendants of Canaan are cursed. And I supposed that because I am a descendant of Canaan, you thought that I might be offended or even outraged.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I have no problem dealing with God's revelation about the human condition. For the question God poses through the Chosen Vessel is this, "Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why have you made me thus?"
However, hidden within this sublime mystery is the revelation of the magnitude of God's mercy towards some of the cursed descendants of Canaan, whom he calls "vessels of mercy." These will inherit eternal life, and come to know God and Jesus Christ.
Of course, I don't expect you to fully understand any of this, as you have spent most of your life being hostile to God's servant, Mr Armstrong.
Tom:
This is my last post to you. First, you know nothing about how I have "spent my life." Dean Blackwell taught, under HWA's auspices, that you would be subservient forever to White Israelites. Nothing that Christ has done will change that. I was sitting in the congregation when Blackwell taught this in Wichita, Kansas.
If you are not offended at this, you should be. Because it is simple-minded racism and not found in the Bible. The fact that you are not offended is not humility but pathology.
You have expressed things in your posts that would get you dis-fellowshipped from any orthodox Armstrongite church. You do not have an argument with me, you have a clash with the religious movement you claim to believe in. To verify this, why don't you call up Dr. Donald Ward, put your ideas in front of him, and see what happens.
Good luck and good-bye.
From the church bulletin of the Church of God in Big Sandy (David Havir):
"Gavin Rumney of Auckland, New Zealand died on Dec. 15. Please remember
the family in your prayers."
Hats off for David Havir. He shows respect.
Gavin has gone the way of all men. He is now at peace.
David Havir sentimentalised thus: "Gavin Rumney of Auckland, New Zealand died on Dec. 15. Please remember the family in your prayers."
If Gavin's family are relying on Havir's prayers for their comfort, just as they were relying Byker Bob's for his healing, their grief and misery must be overwhelming.
Neo Therm posits thus: "If you are not offended at this, you should be."
In psychological circles, your comment is called "projecting." Because you would be offended, you think that everyone else should have the same reaction, as though your twisted emotions reflect the emotions all people.
I also sat in services and heard other so-called ministers say that God is racist, so your experience is not unique.
However, the difference between you and me, is that I am sufficiently wise and at peace, to dismiss such rantings as the work of the devil.
On the hand, you, along with all the other racists, felt a warm glow of superiority washing over you. But that is how lake of fire starts, before getting hotter and hotter.
Skeptic said: "Gavin has gone the way of all men. He is now at peace."
Except for Tom Mahon who is bitter and angry with Gavin for telling the truth about the corrupt HWA and his deceptive religious cult. Tom Mahon finds that he can now speak without being censored out of oblivion, because Tom is a man who refuses to accept the hard realities about the man he worships as a god.
Yes Skeptic, we all do die. And the reality is, I am not afraid of what I can do nothing about. It is a reality and I like most adults accept this fact. You and I and almost all of us former armstrongites accept reality. The one person who never accepts reality is Tom Mahon.
I have followed these blogs for well over a decade and a half. There are several posters who standout as an annoyance. Tom is one. Tom's campaigns of malice and malignity has become tiresome to the point that I feel a few parting words would be appropriate at this time...
Tom seems to embrace a morally hollow academicism. His “Big Brother” dossier of information about everyone he dislikes he uses as a potential weapon. As an example, Dennis, and Douglas are bashed in Tom's response above. The last blog by our good friend Gavin serves as an opportunity for Tom to attack uncensored, everyone here that disagrees with him. Truly the works of a coward!
Don't mention science to magical thinking Tom either. He either is or elects to be ignorant of scientific principles and methods. His science book is the bible. All the solution for mankind can be found within those 66 books that make up Tom's sci-fi text book.
You know, I am embarrassed that some people don't realize that there is an unpleasant fact, painful to the tender-minded, that one can deduce from the laws of nature. This fact is also conclusively established by direct observation. It is a fact so obvious that rational people have always known it and no one doubted it until Tom and his likes started trying to deny it.
The fact to which I am referring states that Tom claims to have solutions to all of our problems. Its the bible. His supposed solutions ride on the backs of people who are poor, powerless, or who don't have the clout to fight the warped, distorted, misshapen, unwholesome monstrosity that Tom's apologues have become. It's these classes of “solutions”, therefore, that demonstrate how Tom feels that he has the trappings of deity. He's a pathetic excuse for a human being.
Painful Truth, I say "amen" to what you wrote.
Tom Mahon will also go the way of all men some day, as will you and I. In his conceit he believes he will have better results than you and I. Of course, this is vanity. He is blinded by his own ignorance.
It occurs to me that Gavin left this up and running for anyone to access. I think the posting capability should be turned off because there is no moderator. All manner of idiosyncratic graffiti, like Mahon's postings, can appear here.
How can we get this addressed? It would be nice if just the respectful postings could be retained on this final posting for those who visit.
Maybe Gavin's last laugh is what would follow.
Having been raised mostly in WCG, I have to say that decades later, I was shocked beyond words, reading a book, in which a Christian lady expressed extreme anxiety and grief over the prospect that any fellow human being might suffer the ultimate consequences of sin. I immediately recognized that as being the only possible correct attitude, and it infuriated me that that's not what we had been taught in "God's True Church" (so-called).
I hate to admit it, but it was 1990 before I first heard of the concept of unconditional love. And that's another big one! We had been pretty much conditioned to believe that God's love was based on our obedience, and unfortunately, that spilled over into love for spouse, love for children, and frankly for the rest of humanity. Horrible life-contaminating flaw!
So, the unfortunate things which we have read above are simply the hideous symptoms produced by the doctrines of Armstrongism. There is no justifying them or explaining them away. It is the way Armstrongism redefined everything for us. HWA taught that human nature was a mixture of good and bad, and then went about redefining many of the basic good elements of human nature as badness; behavioral patterns to be gotten rid of. There are folks who have not yet realized what has been done to them, and they're not prepared to listen to us as we attempt to do our trouble-shooting.
Most people who read here are going to be able to recognize rightness as they read it. I believe that that's what Gavin also believed, as he allowed lessons to be learned from considering opposing positions. As a teacher, he had to have had great confidence in man's ability to discern and to learn. That's most likely why censorship rarely happened. The bad stuff is also part of the lesson.
BB
Maybe Gavin's last laugh is what would follow.
You are correct. Gavin knew the comments to follow would provide even more evidence to the corruption of Armstrongism and its adherents no matter which particular flavor they subscribe to. Any individual who stumbles across this blog in the future only needs to read the comments above. They are objective proof.
Rest in peace, Gavin. You were kind, smart, fair, and full of love. I will miss you terribly.
Like I said ...
Yup. Looks like we've got a code ID-10T on our hands, and nothing works in terms of clearing the error message.
BB
Firstly, censorship is the last fragile refuge of the haters of truth. Jeremiah, Amos, the Apostles and even Jesus were censored by the haters of truth. So to coin a phrase, "if you don't like the message, shoot the messenger." But truth, in the end, will tear down the fragile refuge, straw by straw.
Secondly, those who have left WCG screaming that HWA was a false prophets and a charlatan are obviously deranged. So when I read: "Tom Mahon will also go the way of all men some day," it confirms the obvious insanity of the writer. For the writer is ignorant of the fact that true Christians have passed from death to life, and that God is the God of the living not the dead. That is why he is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Thirdly, it would be great if Painful Truth could take some time of his busy schedule of abusing other people, to learn the rules of grammar and syntax, so that he may be able to string sensible sentences together into coherent paragraphs that have meaning.
Tom's trying to get the last word in by deleting the comment above (22 December 2016 at 14:28) and reposting it. Me thinks he's got his little pink panties in a bunch.
And speaking of The Painful Truth, the PT now has Gavin's Missing Dimension up.
It's quite an effort to save as much truth as possible and use The Painful Truth as a repository. Many of you will appreciate the legacy Gavin left in the Missing Dimension.
Hats off to those at the PT preserving the legacy!
I have reconsidered my position about purging out the disrespectful posts. They should remain to document the pathological mentality that unglossed Armstrongism produces. And these posts speak directly to why Gavin was doing this in the first place.
The First Amendment protects the Westboro Baptist Church members in their inane, self-righteous and judgemental rantings that disgust the rest of the nation. And there is a strong Westboro Effect in the Armstrongite movement - an exultation, for instance, that many will die in the Tribulation but Armstrongites will be spared at Petra - three and a half years of the Feast of Tabernacles. The glee is sickening and clearly un-Christian. But this is not a First Amendment issue. Gavin owned this blog and he could do what he wanted with it without apology.
Preserving the small number of distasteful e-mails has rather to do with the question of Why is Armstrongism bad. Why is anybody concerned about it? Why is this kind of blog that examines Armstrongism even in existence? You don't find blogs like this about the Society of Friends or the United Methodist Church. But Gavin saw a need here. And the silly rantings rather than condemning Gavin corroborate that he was right. The more idiosyncratic, unvarnished Armstrongite ideas exposed for all to see, the more Gavin's view is underpinned, justified and solidified. There really is a train wreck happening.
For this reason let us leave the door open. We must just realize that some who enter in are not looking for healing, do not know they are sick, and are carriers of the disease itself. For those who visit this website in the future, they need but look at this last collection of postings to immediately understand the concerns.
NeoTherm, it certainly shows the rabid hatred of Armstrongists.
You know, there might be places where that hatred is exposed more fully in 2017....
Well, at least we know that Tom takes the Kosher laws seriously. Mahon backwards is no ham.
Neo Therm reracts thus:
>"I have reconsidered my position about purging out the disrespectful posts."<
Firstly, the Apostle James was inspired to write: "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." And Solomon admonishes thus: "Meddle not with those that are given to change." The reason for these inspired texts is to warn God's children, that those who are "doule minded" or "given to change," are ungodly. For God is the same yesterday, today and forever. For he says, "I am the Lord, I change not."
Secondly, the only change the wicked needs to make is via an act of repentance. But all those who left WCG screaming that HWA was a false prophet and a charlatan are beyond repentance. So the instability of the minds will continue forever, as they stumble from idiotic opinion to another.
Don't you just love having a sound mind?
Tom,
"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." --Ephesians 4:31-32
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
II Timothy 3: 1-5
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Hebrews 12:5
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
The highlighted portions apply to Tom Mahon.
And yes, I have given the occasional sermon at church (the sermons do seem to be well received -- transcripts available upon request).
Not that it means anything at all, but I have my ministerial certificate and received the 'right hand of fellowship' from one certified to be an apostle, so technically, I outrank Tom, not that it makes any difference to someone as ungodly as he is.
It is our sad duty to follow Scripture:
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Therefore, we must now mark and disfellowship Tom Mahon until he repents.
We have also posted him as being disfellowshipped at the Painful Truth, SUGGESTED ADDITIONS TO "THE LITTLE GUYS" LIST.
You cannot quote scripture back at an Armstrongite. They have their own slant. They think the corrective scriptures are written to others and not themselves - that's why they have lost the capacity to self-evaluate and reform. They are "the one and only true church" - the rest of us are laughable. They see through a lens that transforms arrogance into leadership, pride into "character", stubbornness into persistence, Phariseeism into zeal, sophomoric glibness into wisdom, idolatrous worship of HWA into loyalty and heresy into enlightenment. But Christ gave a simple litmus test - by their fruit you will now them. The entire Armstrongite movement is mult-schismatic, constantly splintering, full of contention and conflict, rejoicing in exclusivism rather than unity, blatantly racist and unable to come to a knowledge of Christ, who they believe to be a divine being not in unity of essence with the Father, contrary to scripture.
I've been attempting to catalogue and analyze the unfortunate subtopic that has unfolded above, to determine what, if any, takeaways might have come to the forefront, for our further education and edification.
First, often in life, we do what we feel we need to do for the benefit of our mental health and survival. After all, in order to truly help others, a reservoir of strength is required.
If we find and then need a Linus blanket to help us walk that lonesome valley, hopefully it is not one which causes us to look down upon, or criticize and revile others. Many years ago, when I was working on a construction crew, having been steeped in Armstrongism, one of my fellow workers gave me a survival tip for getting along with people outside of the group. He said "Wayne (we went by our middle names because there were 5 Bobs on our crew), do your thing, but don't put down everybody else for doing theirs."
I was able to take that advice, and to apply it throughout my lifetime to my advantage. The guy offering it was cool. Oliver was African American, was a musician with his own band, and had a lowered '59 Chevy we all ate lunch in as we listened to his 8-track tapes of the Temptations, the Isley Brothers, L'il Archie Bell and the Drells, and the Watts 103rd St. Rhythm Band.
A wise man often becomes wise by reflecting and taking introspection, realizing the ways in which he has been an asshole with people in the past. Being an asshole with people breaks the second of the TGCOLs (the great commandments of the Lord), which is love for fellow man. Many people just don't get it. They get out of balance applying the first TGCOL (love for God) in a way that spites their fellow man, and therefore disobeys the second. Difficulty, balance, is harmonized in obeying the two so that both are fulfilled simultaneously. Jesus placed equal importance on both. There is no "I'm sorry, screw you fellow human, I'm busy obeying God to qualify for the Kingdom" about it.
That's unfortunately the lesson left as our takeaway. If indeed we all have our angels who appear before God, I am sure that he frequently must apologize for our behavior and lack of understanding. Jesus told us that if we have done something for the least among us, we have done it for Him. Love for fellow man is love for God, and vice versa. You can't parse or separate the two.
BB
NeoTherm, what you say about Armstrongists is true. However, for our purposes, I have no intentions of trying to influence them because it is a total waste of time. The point of the posting was to obey Scripture. It is what Scripture says to do. It's really too bad that more people don't at least make an attempt to adhere to Scripture, especially those who have claimed to believe that the Bible is the foundation of knowledge.
The purpose of the comment was to mark someone who causes dissention. This may help those who encounter him in the future.
At this point, if everything works as it is prescribed to, we have fulfilled our duties. From here on out, it is up to God what will happen and we are to leave it in His Hands.
As a realist, I'm not optimistic that the marked subject will repent, but it is out of our hands after all -- as long as we do our part.
BB and Black Ops: Good words. I agree.
The condemning attitude seemed to be a leitmotif in Armstrongism. I remember hearing a WCG member say years back that you could recognize someone who had been in the WCG a long time because they frequently engaged in self-condemnation. And the WCG ministry, led by HWA, actively promoted this self-image.
I was watching a TED Talk recently and saw this on a sign:
"In a society (or church) that profits from your self-doubt, liking yourself is an act of rebellion."
Yet Christ said love your neighbor as yourself. Self-concern, self-love is not condemned but serves as the benchmark for loving others.
I believe HWA, et al, deprecated church members systematically and taught an attitude of self-deprecation. Here is the genesis of a condemning attitude towards others. There was no concept of grace. But I believe he and his ministry did this to make people give up on hopes and aspirations. In this way, the economic resources of the beleaguered and condemned could then be deftly directed to the WCG treasury without resistance. I don't know how many times I heard sermons that elevated the idea of being "yielded" to the "government of god" (read as HWA and his materialistic minions).
Oh, well.
"I've been attempting to catalogue and analyze the unfortunate subtopic that has unfolded above, to determine what, if any, takeaways might have come to the forefront, for our further education and edification."
One take away that might be is that there is a certain segment of people who are irrational and chaotic and from time to time, we encounter such people and are forced to deal with them.
And experience shows that the more we understand how these people work and the kinds of destruction they evoke, the better we will be equipped to respond to these people in a way which will leave us no worse for the encounter.
A useful resource is Dr. Sam Vaknin. His book, "Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited" can be a starting point for those still naïve about the subject. Note that his site also has references about narcissists, psychopaths and abusive relationships (those who have watched Criminal Minds may be familiar with the term "malignant narcissist", a topic also covered by Dr. M. Scott Peck in his book, "People of the Lie", and certainly we have been dealing with Dr. Peck's "People of the Lie" here).
"I believe HWA, et al, deprecated church members systematically and taught an attitude of self-deprecation. Here is the genesis of a condemning attitude towards others. There was no concept of grace. But I believe he and his ministry did this to make people give up on hopes and aspirations. In this way, the economic resources of the beleaguered and condemned could then be deftly directed to the WCG treasury without resistance."
Yes, quite: It's about money.
But let's not stop there because it's also about something else: Ego (pride, arrogance, narcissism, superiority). It's good to be King (CEO, Director, Emperor, etc.) because it just makes the bearer of the ego feel good (thus maximizing dopamine levels, per info from neurologists). This elevated state of self is quite the addicting drug and the 1% -- whether corporate leaders or Armstrongists -- are junkies.
What you have seen here is the reaction to the potential withdrawal symptoms which would be painful and have to be dealt with if ever the junkie had to admit the addiction.
Neo Therm writes : "I don't know how many times I heard sermons that elevated the idea of being "yielded" to the "government of god" (read as HWA and his materialistic minions)."
Well HWA was not always that way. In the beginning he was against the top on down approach. Once he was top dog he changed his opinion that it was now the government of god, and he was god and in charge.
Black Ops Mickey posits thus:
>"Not that it means anything at all," If it doesn't matter, why mention it? Are trying to appear humble?
"...but I have my ministerial certificate and received the 'right hand of fellowship' from one certified to be an apostle,"
The evidence available indicates that 98% of the people that were ordained ministers in WCG were never truly converted or understood what it truly means to be a minister of Jesus Christ, and that is evident by the nonsense you are now talking.
In fact, not even Mr Armstrong fully understood the character, role and integration the minister within the body of Christ. Else he would never have allowed GTA to, to cite one bad example, to return to the ministry after being guilty of adultery.
You being ordained was a tragedy for you, for you held an office for which you were unworthy. Can you explain what Paul means when he says: "I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak"(2 Cor.4:13). If don't what that means, you were never a true minister of Christ - you were a hireling! So your ministerial certicate is not worth the paper it on which it is printed.
"so technically, I outrank Tom," I am pleased you used the term, "technically," which I define as, not truly, but only because I have the certificate.
Have you read Paul's certificate? Do you know where in the bible to find it?
As a clarification, I was never ordained as anything in the WCG nor any Armstrongist group, nor did I ever give sermons in an Armstrongist congregation. I only gave the sermons to Christians and that certainly excludes Armstrongists.
Those who think they stand need take heed lest they fall. Note the words ascribed to Jesus himself:
Luke 18:9-14
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Not that the arrogant filled with hatred will heed Jesus' words, but will blather on in their self-justification.
In reading through the referenced article at Living Armstrongism, Right-Wing Extremists Are a Bigger Threat to America Than ISIS, By Kurt Eichenwald, I was struck by this statement:
"Then there are the militia groups, whose pronounced fealty to the Constitution is exceeded only by their apparent refusal to read it."
What seems to be the problem with Mark Armstrong, leader of the Intercontinental Church of God, and indeed all the leadership of the various sects of Armstrongism goes like this:
"Then there are the Armstrongist groups, whose pronounced fealty to the Bible is exceeded only by their apparent refusal to read it."
If they have read it, they certainly don't live according to its precepts.
What's so pathetic is that they are so incompetent that they cannot fathom their own incompetence, as is described by the Dunning-Kruger Effect: The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is -- which pretty much describes Tom Mahon.
In accordance with the biblical commands, we are sometimes required to notify you that certain people have been disfellowshipped from the body of Christ. It is our unpleasant duty at this time to notify you that Tom Mahon has been disfellowshipped from the body of Christ for behavior unbecoming of a true Christian. We should all pray that God will grant him repentance and pray that God will deal with him according to his works.
http://tiny.cc/qxryhy
Over at "As Bereans Did", Martha asks the question:
"Be honest. No one else is looking. Raise your hand if, deep down, you think you will ever be able to eliminate enough sin from your life to qualify for God's Kingdom."
Two candidates have come forward. Both David Pack and Roderick Meredith have declared that they have never committed a "major" sin since baptism.
Oh, I do believe that we've found a third.
Merry Christmas, Tom!
BB
I think we have had a good expose of Armstrongism as it has evolved. Mahon is a post-Herbert preacher of the typical ilk - a little traditional and a little bizarre. What binds the members of this class together is an embarrassing adulation of HWA. Yet, paradoxically, though these people enthusiastically believe that Herbert was the chosen of god and are overweening regarding their personal authority, none of them seem to be credentialed by Herbert's legitimate representatives - no apostolic procession. Even Herbert was credentialed by a branch of the Millerite Movement. Mahon in particular seems to be focused on rejecting the Herbertian ministry, characterizing them as a group of hirelings. Apparently, he has been unable to get paid for what he does. At some point he will recognize that nobody is interested in his product. Its all about business - particular the business of tithes and offerings.
Now for a practical question. I would like to continue keeping up on Armstrongism in this post-Herbert era. Once in a while, I would like to contribute my viewpoint to the general debate.
What is a good blog to follow for this? Gavin ran a class act - easy to use blog software - easy to find things - good moderation - not a lot of irritating black humor and parody. Any recommendations?
-- NeoTherm
Of the many blogs post Herbert, this was the best. But times have changed. I would recommend that you blog hop until one comes around to your liking. The problem is, they come and go so quickly. People have their say and move on.
Everyone has their own personality and it is reflected in their posts. Gavin was very light hearted like a jolly old Santa Clause. Everyone worth their salt respected him. (sorry Tom)
He was one of a kind.
BANNEDbyHWA has quite a bit humor in his posts along with some exposes of the post Armstrong empire.
The Painful Truth has a lot dealing with psychology in many posts and of course, black humor.
If humor is the best medicine perhaps the wild success of these 2 blogs is the reason.
The closes to theological arguments and such would be the Bereans blog. They are a little stiff for my liking but they do supply some valuable information.
Does anyone know if Iron Wolf is still bloging?
I try to stay active on any of the "open" blogs that I know exist. It is useless to participate on any of the pro-Armstrong blogs, because you can't really have an honest exchange of ideas. Censorship is almost considered to be the blogmeister's "Christian" duty on those, and the introduction of certifiable fact will not change, or even cause the reconsideration of anyones' beliefs. The Catholics, whom they revile, are actually more hospitable towards people of opposing views who visit their blogs.
Obviously, the more activity on a blog, and the more the topics relate to a broad cross-section of humanity, the more stimulating it is to exchange ideas. Each one has its unique flavor, and all of them require considerable research on the part of the owner. I've learned so much over the past 15 years, and consider myself to be far richer and far more advanced as a result of my participation. It's been my experience that there are no clunkers.
BB
Well, there is no point in carrying a discussion with people who have no knowledge of the bible, as is evident from their failure to answer questions or comment on quoted texts.
So for now I rest my case. But I am sure that an alarm of horror will bring me back to comment on the destruction of those who think that God is powerless to judge his adversaries.
There are those who do not comprehend Psalm 50:22 --
"Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver."
They just don't think it applies to them.
Sigh.
Well, they've been warned and we can't do much more than that if they want to be unrepentant Olde Testament Christian Pharisees, wallowing in the cesspool of their own self-righteousness.
And where's the excuse? The evil ungodly man had no answers as Gavin showed the truth over at Otagosh, undercutting and destroying the silly delusions of an incompetent.
The problem is that we DO have knowledge of the Bible and the antagonistic slanderer has no conception of it at all.
Delusional clown Tom Mahon is so vain, he probably thinks this blog entry post by the late Gavin Rumney is all about him.
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
P.S. It was me who egged Mahon on about posting a picture of himself about 7 years ago on this very site in response to the clown Mahon making fun of Dennis Diehl's hair cut in a photo. It took awhile, but the clown Mahon finally posted one.
Lake of Fire Church of God,
It's fun, isn't it: Taking this sort of person and pushing all his buttons until he lights up. Just don't tell him about the self-made armstrongist experts over at the Painful Truth because he'd really light up. Let it just be our little secret....
And 7 years?!??!
Wow!
I didn't know.
He acts like a 5 year old.
Let us assume that Mahon is utterly convinced that he is a Christian. And he believes that the Bible is true and is binding on Christians. Let us further assume that he believes we are all, believer and non-believer alike, reprobates because we do not worship at the feet of HWA. In other words, I am assuming sincerity and assuming that Tom is not just baiting us to have something to do.
In the scripture, what Christ stated about his enemies, the Pharisees and Roman soldiers who were in the process of crucifying him, was "Father forgive them. They know not what they do." Christ also said something about "love your enemies." I am not saying that these principles are easy to practiced but some kind of influence should be detectable in those who claim to be practicing Christians.
If you read Tom's last post carefully, he makes the alarming statement near the end that he is waiting for something disastrous to befall us. And he wants to show up to say "I told you so." My guess is that he showed up after Gavin passed on because he thought he had something to do with Gavin's outcome - by calling wrath down on Gavin in prayer.
It is easy to see evaluated against Christ's words that Tom does not worship the Christian God and he probably reads the NT but filters out what he does not want to do - like the quotation of Christ's own words I stated earlier.
But in so doing he evinces the fact that he is a "good Armstrongite." Maybe a little off-the-wall, unable to be a part of an orthodox Armstrongite congregation but he does understand and apply Armstrongite principle. There are people like Tom scattered throughout the Armstrongite congregations.
Tom gleefully wants to see people destroyed. I am beginning to think that old Dean Blackwell was right - people like Tom need to be micromanaged by White Israelites or they get into all kinds of unseemly mischief.
NeoTherm,
You may be right. Gavin kind of took Mahon and treated him lightly. I was always surprised at his kindness towards Mahon. Gavin, as I have read by those who loved him, was a kind, caring and considerate individual. He took needy people under his wing and nurtured them so that they could become informed and productive individuals.
Well this as we all have seen is the way Tom is. He cannot change. The very definition of being alive is ceaseless change. So maybe its safe to say that Tom is spiritually dead. Sad. I feel so very sorry for him. Even if he HAD everything right legally, he still lacks love. And without love one is not a human being. Nor a Christian. People like Tom are like a bell sounding off aimlessly, unable to accomplish anything but to make noise.
He cannot even practice the basics of sound religion found in the golden rule. Tom is to be pitied among all men, because in the end he will hear the words "worthless servant".
Neo Therm,
Yes, that was Christ's pray for his enamies, "Father forgive them. They know not what they do." But what does it mea? There is no point in quoting Scripture without saying what it means to you or asking someone to explain what it means.
Richard,
I don't know about egging me on. Most people posted on blogs, especially formwe WCG members seem terrified to indentify themselves. But I transfered that photo from my blog: www.againsthirlings.blogspot.com.
I am not afraid to let people know who I am or to attached my name to any comments I make.
BTW, do you have an update on the depressed Dennis or the deranged Douglas?
Finally, if I remember correctly, you had returned to celebrating Christmas. How awful!
The Painful Truth Editor commented on the blog there:
Miguel de la Rodente wrote:
“Interesting, in reading the materials of both Ian Boyne and Tom Mahon, one comes away with an appreciation of the profound differences possible between two men of color.”
--------------------
Well Ian might be seeking answers, one cannot know for sure, Tom is picking fights. He has made himself known as a heartless sob. The vindictiveness of his posts is evidence enough against him.
Ian I can agree to disagree with. He is peaceful enough and I would hope that he is trying to do the right thing in his eyes.
Mahon on the other hand replies with the exact same line he did 10 years ago. I found many comments by him in the old version of Ambassador Watch. Most are exact copies, a cut and paste response.
10 years of bullying suggests that he's not going to change any time soon....
Typical Armstrongite word games. What does "love your enemy" mean? Like Bill Clinton saying it depends on what the word "is" means. This is a sleazy dodge. Simply: loving your enemies is what Christ mandated and what Mahon does not do.
For these legalists who do not understand the magnification of the law by Christ, love is "the keeping of the commandments" only. So they pretend to be able to keep the commandments and then go off into a dark closet, with glistening maniacal eyes and a darkened mind, and call curses down on everyone. This is a mapping of voodoo onto Christianity. In that closet, would we find dolls with needles sticking from them - maybe one with Gavin's name on it?
NeoTherm, don't forget Dennis... and maybe someone else....
After 10 years, you'd think that he'd run out of pins and come out of the closet, but, sadly, it will probably be another decade of darkness and blackness, venting hatred on people who, in the meantime, no longer are relevant to his loathing... such a wasted life, but, you know, for people occupied with what they want to do, the time disappears like nothing at all.
And so do opportunities for joy, peace and happiness -- and those who continue to pursue the works of the flesh deserve the empty lives they suffer.
Perhaps it would be a better use of time for him to visit the fatherless and widow in their affliction.
When our children were young, Sabbath afternoons we would go to a retirement home to visit the widows. It brought such joy to them and, for many of them in their 80s and 90s, forestalled their becoming institutionalized. There was an elderly widow in the church at the rest home and we did come primarily for her, but we did spend time with the other widows there. They looked forward to the visits.
Perhaps, oh, you know, maybe Tom could do that.
Tom,
Get your facts right. I (along with others) challenged you to post your picture here on Ambassador Watch after you made disparaging comments about Dennis Diehl's haircut in an old photo. To your credit, about a month or so later, you posted your photo on Ambassador Watch for the first time. THEN, you used it on your blog website which you created afterwards. It was originally posted here on AW and we were all somewhat surprised to find that you are black.
Dennis can speak for himself and doesn't need me to give an update for him.
I don't think the Deity gives a rats ass whether some one keeps or doesn't keep a certain festive day celebrating the SUN of God. When the book of life is read, its going to matter more about how one lived their life than what days they kept or didn't keep.
Gavin would allow such discourse so I don't think we are disrespecting him here. He is probably smiling right now over all these posts that the clown Tom Mahon has generated on HIS farewell blog entry.
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
Black Ops Mickey said, "Perhaps, oh, you know, maybe Tom could do that".
MY COMMENT - Clown Tom Mahon practicing true and pure religion like you do as defined in James 1:27? Don't hold your breathe Black Ops! He is the Judge and he thinks you are the one going to the Lake of Fire, not him!
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
Disappointing, isn't it? Why couldn't Tom have turned out to be more like Wilson Pickett, Bob Marley, Muhammad Ali, or President Obama? Just goes to further show, there is no way, no extra dimension you can add to Herbert W. Armstrong to make him or his misguided teachings cool. Not even a black guy can do that for him. HWA spoiled virtually everything he ever touched.
BB
But, Byker Bob, Herbert Armstrong did one positive thing for humanity! He helped contribute to the Science Fiction community. And Living University is carrying on his legacy of SF!
If all goes well, we'll have more on this in early 2017!
[This should be incentive for everyone to renew their subscriptions to Analog, Asimov's and the Magazine of Science Fiction & Fantasy!]
HWA taught Pelagianism. He focused on works in conformity to select OT laws and threw a small sop to Christ and no sop at all to grace. He exalted the works of people and diminished the work of Christ in salvation.
This is an important Armstrongist principle. Focus on works permits measurable control - visible behavior can be directed and assessed. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" - as it says in the Bible and Spokesman's Club Manual. In my lost decades in the WCG, I saw many angry outbursts from HWA from the pulpit, jowls shaking and vigorous gesturing. Not once did he chide us to love one another or behave towards one another more kindly (although this was sorely needed at the hierarchy driven BS Campus), but instead spoke about what was important to him and what he knew - more tithes, more offerings, more service to the church. Any mention of Christ was incidental. He accused the lay membership of great disloyalty to his cause. With disgust he would say repeatedly "You brethren just don't get it." He exemplified judgment and not grace. And many sat in the congregation and received this with ardent adoration. They were in awe of him and wanted to be like him in every way. The abused became the abusers. This is a brief review of what we all know.
Tom's formation happened in this environment - a non-Christian, cultic environment. Should we wonder at Tom's reactions? He speaks for this system. He zealously pursues its erroneous principles. But he is really no different in core beliefs from many people who will be sitting in various COG congregations next Saturday. "All he does prospers well but the wicked are not so, they are chaff before the wind driven to and fro" proof-texted from the OT with no acknowledgement of the role of adversity in the NT.
And who prospered more than HWA?
This thread on the death of the blasphemous Gavin has morphed into an attack on HWA and me. Well, HWA is not here to respond to the insanity of the deranged, and I find their attacks on me so risible, that I have adopted the stance of Elijah when dealing with false prophets of Baal. He just laughed them to scorn.
To laugh at the destruction of the wicked is a divine response. For note God's recorded response as inspired by the words of Solomon thus: "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes"(Pro.1:26). And the righteous are commanded to adopt the same response thus: "The righteous see it, and are glad: and the innocent laugh them to scorn"(Job.22:19).
Of course, I am well aware that writing these gems of wisdom is like casting pearls before swine, who will trampled them under feet, and carry on abusing me. But God and I will have the last laugh.
Geez, just when I thought this silliness was over, he's back again.
Tom, you are delusional. Your writings are hardly "gems of wisdom" - more like rantings of ignorance.
Let us take an exegetical approach. To laugh at the destruction of the wicked is not a divine response. In Ezekiel God states that he "has no pleasure in he death of the wicked" but wants the wicked to turn to life. Here I am using the hypothesis that in Tom's world those of us who have criticized him are, generally, his "wicked."
Prov 1:26 is not God's recorded response. This is rather a personification of Wisdom. It is a literary device and some of its aspects are hyperbolic for effect. Nowhere does it say that this is the attitude of God. Christ said "love your neighbor as yourself" in all of its implications. This does not align with laughing at the calamity of or finding gratification in the calamity of the wicked. Rejoicing in someone else's hardship is the immature, gloating reaction of non-Christian, cult Armstrongism.
Job 22:19 are the words of Eliphaz the Temanite. In Chapter 42, God says to Eliphaz: "I am angry at you at your two friends because what you have spoken of me is not right, as my servant Job has."
It is a characteristic of Armstrongists to bend scripture to their own purposes. They retrofit Biblical passages out of context to their pre-determined beliefs. It is interesting that when Dean Blackwell stated that people like Tom would forever be servants to White Israelites back in Wichita, he based this on a misquotation of a passage in Isaiah. I was stunned that he could preach something that was the blatant opposite of what the Bible stated and get away with it. And this with most people in the congregation with their Bibles open to the passage itself. Nobody in the mostly White congregation batted an eye at this rank misappropriation of scripture - because it ostensibly elevated them to a position of superiority.
If what I have just written is "trampling gems" then the creator of these "gems" has a serious disconnect with the Bible and Christianity. At the end of the path created by HWA you will find neither God nor Biblical Truth.
Fortunately, we have the testimony of Ian Boyne and Wes White (which you can see at the Painful Truth under the "Year End Cap. Just What Do You Mean By Armstrongism?"). We have two voices which are a lot more balanced than the rantings of someone who is doing nothing but holding himself up for self-aggrandizement, and not only holding himself up for self-aggrandizement, but acting as a bully, attempting to abuse people who call his bluff.
Perhaps we will hear more from Ian and Wes on the 'watchdog blogs' in the future.
The bully who needs to hold himself up for self-aggrandizement is a universal stereotype. The meaning which is inherent in that is very clear, and carries 100% accuracy. We're gaining a view into the soul of one who has the need to massively over-compensate for something or other, and in this case, he is doing it at the expense of our more highly esteemed friend.
BB
I see Satan's Canaanite son is back from roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it..
If you gave Tom one of these, what might he do with it?
http://tiny.cc/rv94hy
Neo Therm,
At least, this time, you have focused on the topic under discussion, instead of just hurling abuse at HWA and me; although the abuse came at the end of your post.
However, your exegetical interpretation and argument is that the book of Proverbs is a "personification of wisdom," but you didn't say what that means. You also implied that the text in Job is uninspired, and was therefore Eliphez's opinion. And you based that conclusion on the fact that God was critical of Job's three friends' assumptions that his sufferings were the result of some terrible sin, rather than a teast of his patience and obedience.
But I also note that you didn't comment on Elijah's laughter at the folly of the prophets of baal. Was it here that your exegetical interpretation ran into a hurdle, that you couldn't jump, without suffering serious intellectual injury?
Whatever was your reason, the facts are these: God appeared to Solomon on two occasions in Gebeah, and granted him wisdom that surpassed all wisdom given to men before or since, with the exception, of course, of the final revelation that was brought by Jesus Christ. So to argue that Solomon writings are his personal interpretaion of what God might do, is a denial of the wisdom God gave to him. And to argue that Eliphaz's comments, preserved in the canon of Scripture, is false, places you in a very dangerous position. For the terrifying, inspired words of the Apostle John are these: "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life..."(Rev.22:18-19). Gavin spent many years doing just that, please don't walk in his footsteps.
Finally, King David was also inspired to write: "The rightous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him"(Ps.52:6). "Him" refers to the wicked. So it is acceptable the righteous to use the divine laughter, that laughs at the destruction of the wicked.
Tom is a "True Believer" which makes him a fool. A useful idiot for those who exploit the gullible.
Look, this is really simple. Really simple. Christ said "love your neighbor as yourself." End of story. It doesn't make any difference what you can find in the superseded Old Testament that you hope to use to abrogate Christ's words. Notice that this is the fundamental fallacy of Armstrongism. Resorting to the Old Testament and imposing this on Christianity today is to make shipwreck in the same way that HWA did.
Gavin did not add to the NT but you seem to have done this with abandon primarily in taking superseded texts of the OT and promoting them into the NT.
Sorry, you are just totally unconvincing. You need to find another calling. If you want to laugh a people's misery and consider it Christian and cannot even see the evil behind that, you have a serious spiritual impairment.
Tom, your wrong (and silly) conclusions are all based on a false assumption. You assume the collection of writings known as the bible are inspired by a god. They're clearly not.
You want to debate "the topic under discussion"? You're talking to the wrong audience. Most of us here have come to realize the modern bible is a fraud. It is a collection of the writings of ancient con men and is used by modern con men to great effect. HWA and you are included in this.
The Bible contradicts itself, contradicts known facts and conveys myths. It reflects a BCE-era understanding of how the world works. It knows nothing of the germ theory of disease, Newtonian physics, modern biology or even modern concepts of justice and fairness.
I suggest you research the history of how these ancient writings got to be compiled and translated into the modern bible. Your time would be much better spent than needling us nonbelievers with your self-righteous rants.
Armstrongism is an intoxicant, much as alcohol, or drugs. As such, it produces an altered state of consciousness. I'm certain most of us at one time or another in our lives, have had the unfortunate experience of having someone close to us with a dependency issue. It's impossible to argue with such an individual, let alone make sense in such a way that an argument can be won. Argument almost borders on enabling, because it serves to drive the poor afflicted person deeper into addiction. The only factor known to change people with addictive personalities is the "bottoming out" process. In the case of Armstrongism, that can involve realization based on decades of experience that the prophecies are bogus and will never be fulfilled, or continued accumulated negative experience with, or destructive patterns caused by Amstrongism in one's life. Just as there are "functional" alcoholics who seemingly aren't bothered by all of the obvious symptoms, and never bottom out, there can also be "functional" Armstrongites. It's impossible to argue with either.
BB
The Skeptic,
Well, you can't be help, for you are beyond repentance. So there is no point in any further communication with you.
You leaving WCG in 1995, and attending UCG until 2000 shows that you had no idea where God is working or who are his true ministers. For all UCG ministers are hirelings.
I 1995, at was laughingly called the Feast of Tabernacles, I met Victor Kubic, and I asked him if he had spoken out against Tkach's doctrinal changes, and he said no. I asked the same question to David Hulme, and the answer was the same. They were all in the business of protecting their salaries or redundancy packages. If you couldn't see that, you were obviously spiritually blind. Now you are compleely crazy.
Tom scribbles 'If you couldn't see that, you were obviously spiritually blind. Now you are compleely crazy.'
No, Skeptic and the rest of us have LEARNED. You haven't Tom. Your one of the inherently stupid people because you are not growing in knowledge. You repeat what your master taught you, just like a trained parrot. You will never learn because your spiritually dead.
If we are talking about judgment against evil people, maybe we should remember Bishop Fulton J. Sheen:
One of his best-remembered presentations came in February 1953, when he forcefully denounced the Soviet regime of Joseph Stalin. Sheen gave a dramatic reading of the burial scene from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, substituting the names of prominent Soviet leaders Stalin, Lavrenty Beria, Georgy Malenkov, and Andrey Vyshinsky for the original Caesar, Cassius, Marc Antony, and Brutus. He concluded by saying, "Stalin must one day meet his judgment." The dictator suffered a stroke a few days later and died within a week.
On the other hand, Armstrongists like Ronald Weinland have cursed people and they have lived on in prosperity.
It sort of reminds you of Malachi 2:2, except instead of cursing blessings, it seems that God is blessing cursings.
So maybe it's a good thing to be denigrated by a nasty Armstrongist.
Tom, it is you who are the fool. Everybody here knows it. Why don't you admit your error, repent, and join the 21st century?
The Skeptic affirms: "Tom, it is you who are the fool."
I am sure that is true about some things.
"Everybody here knows it"
Well, misery loves company. It is never happy unless it is draging others to the same destruction. That is why JWs visit other people homes carrying a false religion, and Pentecostal hand out religious tracts on the streets, and you are happy that everyone here agrees with you, except me, of course.
I heard an interesting definition of "dogmatic" on the radio today. It is someone who believes his church is the only true church and every one else is going to hell. That describes Tom to a "T".
Don't be silly, Tom. That's not the reason JW's visit homes. They're not trying to drag people to destruction. They're trying to SAVE them. They're exactly like YOU, Tom. They are 100% sure they have the truth and the rest of us are going to hell.
The Pentecostals hand out tracts for the same reason, Tom.
Same goes for Catholics. Also Muslims. They are all convinced they have the truth and we are all wrong.
You're just like them! That ought to give you pause to think, Tom.
Of course, it won't.
If only Tom had a brain. Sing it...
It begs the question, what if HWA had passed out mind altering halucinogens during sabbath services? Would they have caused any members permanent damage? We'll let those who retained a belief in conspiracy theories play with that for a while.
BB
Byker Bob speculates thus:
"what if HWA had passed out mind altering halucinogens during sabbath services?"
He didn't have to, for Satan was already been poisoning the minds of those that were only warming seats, but were never converted. Just look at wreckage that the devil has caused. Dennis, the depressed; Douglas, the deranged; Gavin the blasphmous; The skeptic, the insane; Opinionated, the brain dead; Richard, the ill conceived and you the laughing stock.
In addition, the devil has forced you all to return to your own vomit, and to be like sows, wallowing in the mire. What a tragedy!!
Well, HWA taught that in his life's experiences, he had found that the accuser is usually the doer. So when someone that everyone is laughing at refers to me as being the laughing stock, I just (wait for the drum roll), .......laugh!
BB
Mahon is essentially a critic of Armstrongism. He argues:
1. Many Armstrongists were "warming seats" and were not truly converted. If we use Tom and his beliefs as the benchmark for believing conversion, then hardly any of the people warming seats were converted. Maybe Tom was the only true convert. This is the ultimate in Armstrongist exclusivism. I think this may be a hidden desire of many Armstrongists - to be the one and only.
2. The Armstrongist Ministry was a corrupt, hireling ministry.
What we may conclude from this is that Tom has the solid conviction that Armstrongism was wholly corrupt - ministry and congregants. In that viewpoint, he does not differ much from the rest of us. Whereas many of us, after coming to understand that Armstrongism is rot, became Christians and agnostics, Tom retreated into his little pseudo-Armstrongist niche. He doubled-down on his version of Armstrongism.
I use the term "pseudo-Armstrongist" after some consideration. Tom is not credentialed by the mainstream Armstrongist movement. In fact, were he ever to express his views to its leaders, they would disfellowship him if they felt that was of any value.
So we have a hypothesis: "God has disavowed orthodox Armstrongism and has raised up Tom to lead the new and reformed Armstrongist movement." Hence, if this hypothesis has substance, we may expect soon to see the Golden Age of HWA repeated but with Tom as the Apostle doing God's work.
This is worth keeping an eye on. By its fruit, you will know the tree. Perhaps, in the near future Tom will take the Armstrongist movement by storm, White Supremacy and all. And we will be amazed that at one time we sparred with Herbert's heir-apparent.
Oh, just realize that Tom Mahon is just another Druid and go with it.
We should pity Tom. Tom has committed his life to a heresy invented by an unemployed high school dropout in the Eugene Oregon public library. This heresy has been completely discredited and has lost 99.9% of its adherents yet Tom still clings to it. His once seeming-important position has been reduced to lashing out at us. Sad.
Based on quite a lot of experience, Tom Mahon mirrors the mindset of the typical Seventh Day Adventist. They are quite a pushy lot and so very confident of what they believe, taught to them by their false prophet, E.G. White. They KNOW, positively KNOW, they are always right and everybody else who does not believe the way they do are doomed to whatever dire death consequence they hypothesize -- or rather EGWhite hypothesized. They do their best to tromp the competition and they have rather nasty relationships with other Sabbath keeping churches of God. They threatened to sue the CoG7D because their logo had a Bible and a candle -- even though it looked nothing the same as the SDA logo. They're nasty. They see no reason for the Seventh Day Church of God and one widow told me of her experience as she attended a CoG7D school when she went to keep the Feast of Tabernacles: The SDA called her and her sister, those "evil girls" because they kept the Feast. The school threatened and really did withhold her transcripts.
And they feel the surge of their power. Mega Corporations give them $120 million a year for SDA projects, like hospitals and clinics.
Years ago, we lived next to a young married couple who were in the SDA. The wife grew up in it; the husband was a convert for his wife's sake. They were having marital problems. The SDA ministers came in to counsel them. Now here's the deal: Here's this young man who's trying to make a go of things who works in the bakery in the store near their apartment. The SDA runs the bakery. He has no where to turn. His life is miserable. The only choices are: Lose his wife, lose his job and leave... or submit to the misery of their authority and counselling. It did not end well.
And that is their answer to everything: Our way or the highway. They throw their weight around. They make the lives of people around them miserable. They are arrogant with hubris. They are confident everything will work out for them following the precepts of a false prophetess, but everyone else is doomed.
There's also a suave weirdness to them as well. When I visited a young man in the CoG7d who had had a psychotic break with manic depressive illness while he was in the mental health facility (he had been feeding stray dogs in an alley with McDonald's hamburgers, believing he was teach the gospel -- to dogs), his grandfather in the SDA came by. I think his grandfather was a minister. He seemed polished and confident, but a one point he started laughing and his grandson started laughing, mirroring him. There was no joke. There wasn't anything funny. It was manic. It was also weird and creepy. And that is a memory that just can't be dislodged for the weirdness.
And it just seems to me that Tom Mahon is from the SDA stock, even if it has been transmogrified to something that doesn't quite look Seventh Day Adventist.
Well, I could be wrong. Maybe it's just a mental disorder, but I'm thinking the likelihood is great that the SDA influence is there....
in the near future Tom will take the Armstrongist movement by storm, White Supremacy and all. And we will be amazed that at one time we sparred with Herbert's heir-apparent.
Yes, a blackman leading a white supremacy group. A real comedy act.
It's a shame. This thread should have been our heartfelt goodbyes to Gavin. Instead it got hijacked by a selfish self-righteous cultist.
"Instead it got hijacked by a selfish self-righteous cultist."
A cowardly act indeed by a cowardly man who fears death.
An article about Gavin is on the front page of Cartwright's "The Journal."
Yes, and it's a LOT shorter than Ken Wesby:
The Journal Issue #190.
Mikey, thanks for the link to The Journal. With Gavin gone, this may be the last copy of The Journal I get to read.
The Skeptic rightly Affirms thus: >" With Gavin gone, this may be the last copy of The Journal I get to read."<
No truer words were ever spoken by a skeptic. For if you continue to blaspheme, you won't be around for much longer.
Someone was going to take over the duty of posting the Journal on one of the Armstrong recovery blogs. Looks like they goofed this time. But, there's no need to miss it. If you subscribe, Dixon emails it. If you don't, you can go to the Journal website, and click on the latest Journal issue and open it from the site. Archives are maintained there, too.
BB
That was I. And just so you know, here is the commentary on The Journal, Issue #190.
We'll try to keep up, but remember that my day job is taking care of the cat.
Bob - thanks for the info. I'm not interested enough to pay for a subscription, but I do like to scan The Journal for the names of old friends and acquaintances. In the future I'll check their website. Or Mikey's website if I can figure out how.
Tom - I fully intend to continue to speak against your false beliefs - what you call "blaspheme". If you haven't noticed, God has a very poor record with regard to striking down those who blaspheme. I'm not worried.
I'm 63 years old and in excellent health. Would you like to place a bet as to whether I'll still be around in 5 years? 10 years? A neutral party could hold the stakes.
I'll probably outlive you - your negative attitude HAS to be taking years off your life.
Thanks Mikey! It looks like the Painful Truth Blog intends to cover future issues of The Journal. I'll be sure to visit there!
It is easy to bandy about the word "blasphemy" as in Tom's threat in reply to The Skeptic. But how about the words of Christ:
"I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not"
If I were someone concerned about doing the will of God, Armstrongism would be highly suspect because of the scripture above. Non-Jewish, White Armstrongites will make the argument that they are not saying they are Jews but are saying that they are Israelites - drawing a racial distinction between the House of Israel and Judah. Hence, they do no fall under the condemnation spoken by Christ. And then follows all the Hoehian pseudo-history about the Northern Ten Tribes versus the Southern Tribes. That is all malarkey. Paul called himself on one occasion a Jew and on another occasion a Benjamite. Obviously, in his mind they were interchangeable in some way. And we must turn to genetics to understand how Jews and Benjamites were related.
I think it would behoove anyone who is considering Armstrongism to review the voluminous genetic material that makes it an utter impossibility for the people of Britain to be descended from Jacob along with the Jews. We have two widely separated haplogroups that appeared at different times and locations in world history. (No wonder the Brits don't look like Middle Easterners - is this all that hard to figure out?) Jews, Benjamites, Canaanites, Syrians, etc were all haplogroup J. And the genetically homogeneous collection of clans descended from Jacob came to be known generically as Jews.
Then we must ask where does the tag of "blasphemy" really belong.
The Journal piece on Gavin is a surprise in that he was older than I thought, and left way earlier than I thought "1982"(unless that is a typo?)
Minimalist, I did not see anything that would indicate Gavin's age, although I surmised that he was in his sixties.
The Journal gave very sketchy information and it wasn't even clear what sort of teaching he did. The Journal DID gave plenty of info on Ken Wesby, which is ironic since Gavin's contributions to us is probably far greater.
One of the things we noted in the process of saving as much as we could of his legacy, particularly preserving his Missing Dimension blog is that he was always quite careful and detailed in his work. We noted any number of saved copies as he worked on the information he presented.
Maintaining a blog is difficult and work intensive and like so many who are really skilled and good at it, Gavin made it look easy.
Does anyone know when Gavin started blogging? Back shortly after Y2K, as the internet became a staple of virtually everyone's life, my wife (at the time) bought an updated computer, capable of internet access (my work computers which I had used since 1989 were all offline), and we first signed on. The two main sites which critiqued Armstrongism were Ed Mentell's (Painful Truth), and Gavin Rumney's (Missing Dimension). All that I was doing at that point was looking for news of old friends, but soon got roped in by the excitement, contributing to both sites.
Actually, most of my contributions were to the site I felt was most relevant to my own life's experiences (PT), but there was something magnetic about the international flavor and perspectives which Gavin brought to the party. My new friends at PT were also making contributions to Gavin's blog, which encouraged me to do the same. At that time, Gary Leonard was "Pasadena Guy" at the Worldwide Church of God Allumni Forum, and I believe also a source of information for Gavin about the inner workings of the as yet not renamed WCG, and the Pasadena campus. Many of the people contributing to the sites, blogs, and forums at that time were what I call "Class of '95" (leaving after the changes). I was "Class of '75 (left after the great disappointment of 1975).
There are many sites which have come and gone over the past 17 years. It is amazing that anyone could maintain the level of interest, freshness, and excitement that Gavin did for as long as he did. The Painful Truth, the other long-term site, has also done this, but under the custodianship of multiple webmasters.
Gavin was definitely a very special, very talented individual, with no perceivable ego, and no bitterness. His low key, factual approach even endeared many of the most hard core and staunch Armstrongites, some of whom recognized (to the extent their filters would allow) the veracity of many of his contentions. That is precisely the type of individual required to bring about paradigm shift and reform or change. Gavin is now an integral part of the history of the Armstrong movement.
BB
Bob write: "The Painful Truth, the other long-term site, has also done this, but under the custodianship of multiple webmasters."
Yes Bob, but there has always been a plan of succession. Most peaceful. I landed up taking the site over when another could not. This February or so, I forget the exact date, will mark 20 years for the Painful Truth. The website that the armstrongites never mention, as if we don't exist.
I believe that the PT is the oldest as to anti-herbal websites. God truly has blessed this righteous work as we continue fighting the religion of the anti-christ. Yes, we have been fighting the good fight in order to prevent s satanic religion from spreading their moldy dark wings on humanity, longer, harder and with more gusto than anyone else!
No sir, you'll never read about the Painful Truth in the Journal. Even to mention us would shutter Dixon's little paper. We, the Painful Truth, offer ideas and present psychological theories to explain the crux of things we all experienced. You the reader bring your own experiences to bear on the matter. We just desire to point out to the people who make up the lost souls of armstrongism, that they are selling themselves out for dross.
I would say that it would not be out of character for a ACOG institution, which with the twist and turn they take, to remain forever a disgrace to humanity. The founder whom which stole, rehashed, and re-branded a not so perennial knowledge as his own in an attempt to convince the general public that his authoritative views were a gift from God. This continues on with the latest Herbal imitators, so yes they to will remain a pox on humanities ass for some time.
As it stands, we are the many who are willing take the poisonous wine of armstrongism and distill it. We are the agent that decants the poisonous fluid from its bottle into the jug. That is all of us. We fight against the evils of armstrongism, and we continue on towards the goal of liberating humanity from the scourge. It is 'we' who are the salt of the earth.
Recently we took Wes White up on his offer to reach out to all of us ex armstrongites.
One of my colleagues pointed out to me that the armstrongites reaching out to us, the ex armstrong crowd, that their pretense of soliciting input from us amounts to little more than a giant suggestion box, inside of which lies a forever-churning paper shredder. Time will soon tell if this is a smoke and mirror effort. Where are you Wes?
I'm pretty late to this. I guess I should stop trying to distance myself so much.
RIP Gavin. All the formers from the mid-1970's to now and into the foreseeable future owe you a debt of gratitude.
So I forget where I saw it, but didn't it come out somewhere that Gavin was 62 by Dec 2016? Anyway, I always imagined him to be like 10 years younger and I also assumed - again, reading between the lines, that he had exited wcg around the time of the Great Tkach Apostacy! So a real surprise to see he had the wherewithal to somehow extricate himself in 1982, being a member, according to the Cartwright/Journal (I think he communicated privately with Dixon giving some details like "member from 1975 to 1982")-- Not a long stretch: the lucky bugger only spent 7 years up on the cross! As John Cleese said in Life of Brian "You Lucky Bugger,you lucky,lucky blogger"
1975 to 1982 -- just after the abjectly MAJOR fail of prophesy and 4 years before Herbert Armstrong died -- the golden years of Armstrongism where there was so much chaos -- with the ejection of GTA, the heart attack, the receivership, the $5 million divorce, revelation of the incest -- the years that the Armstrongist 1%ers were so disrupted they didn't have the time or inclination to actively abuse, control and manipulate the membership the way they did before or after because they were in survival mode, definitely a very lucky time, isolated from the worst Armstrongism had to offer and being in a venue far from the epicenter of insanity, it was much easier to approach Armstrongism as an academic dealing in high concept, focusing on more esoteric and abstract high concept as an intellectual exercise in curiosity, than others with broader and deeper experience in the trenches, giving a unique, if somewhat detached, perspective on the cult environment.
If, as the Journal reveals, he left in 1982, I wonder if he obtained Brinsmead's classic Sabbath-refutation book hot off the press, as it came out in 1981! Gavin was a fan of Brinsmead and had many threads on him.
Byker Bob said: >" I was "Class of '75 (left after the great disappointment of 1975)."<
What was the great disappointment? If you had taken the same attitude as the Bereans, you would have searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so, not just swallow huck, line and sinker what was said. The fact that you didn't prove all things, means that you were not truly converted.
Anyway, I was baptised on the 2nd June 1975, and beofre then I knew that many of the ministers and doctrines were false. Later it turned out that 98% of the ministry were not converted, and at least 95% of the members.
Did you know that 67.2918735044231314925% of all statistics are either wrong or misleading?
What does that have to do with your misguided belief that the world would have ended in 1975? Don't duck the issue; ask yourself, how come you were deceived?
Just when I thought he was gone this moron returns.
Go away Tom.
Satan sent Herbert W. Armstrong into my parents' lives. He deceived them, teaching that because he kept the original Christian doctrines from the first century, God had revealed to him the meanings and schedule of the end times prophecies in Revelation. I was a very small child, and although I didn't want all of this horrible stuff to happen to my friends and relatives because they weren't in what Herbert said was "God's True Church", I trusted what my parents and the church taught me. There was no reason not to until 1972 when the Germans failed to show on the timeline the entire church had been taught. Still, I stuck around just in case, until 1975 when Jesus didn't show on cue either. In the time since then, I've restudied all that I had been taught, and found that HWA was dead wrong about everything else, too. He taught heresy. The church members who wouldn't accept correction were spewed from the mouth of God to become splinters. Now they're all running around like chickens with their heads cut off saying all manner of confused and crazy things because they're desperate to believe that they haven't wasted their entire lives on coercion from a false prophet. If I've learned anything from this experience, it is why God hates false prophets. He says he's going to throw them into the lake of fire with the beast and the antichrist.
To be honest with you, if Jesus were going to impliment Armstrongism as God's government on earth forever and ever when He returns, it would
be preferable to simply die in the lake of fire. Fortunately, I believe we've got something much better waiting for us!
BB
Byker Bob,
So HWA first deceived your parents, and they in turn deceived you. I can understand that as we first learn to follow the beliefs of out parents. We see that tradition in Islam, where little children are taught by parents and elders to blow themselves up to kill the "infidels."
However, when you grew up and wanted to be baptised, the onus passed to you, not just to believe what was said, but to "prove all things." This you didn't do.
So years later, you can't blame HWA or your parents for your deception. You have to blame yourself for your failure to search the Scriptures daily, to see whether those things were so.
For example, I never believe for one moment that WCG was the Philidelphian era of the church, as the emphasis in the church was on materialism: or that Christians were not born again, with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
In 1982 I sent a paper to Frank Brown, the then UK director of the work, and he passed it to Robert Boreker for a reply. The reply positively confirmed that they were both ignorant of the teachings of the bible. I also wrote to Carl McNair and Colin Adair about a sermon they gave on predestination, and their replies were so idiotic, they both suddenly died.
Sadly, the vast majority of the people who attended WCG fell into the catergories of either the seed that fell on stoney ground or amomg thorns. So it was only a matter of time before they fell away.
Ok, Tom. So you do acknowledge that you had some problems with some of the doctrines, the ministers, and the people in Armstrongism, just as Gavin and the rest of us have had. Why do you present yourself as being so hostile? That is perhaps the part that makes the least sense of all. If people, in your opinion, were either never called, or were deceived or set back by HWA, why would you lambaste them, and say things that tend to turn them off towards whatever truths you feel that they have failed to see?
BB
I step away for several weeks and see that this clown Tom Mahon has hijacked a post that is suppose to honor Gavin.
Then we find out this Bozo Tom Mahon chastises the brethren for believing Mr. Armstrong's words and "1975 in Prophecy" before the great disappointment. PT Barnum said you can fool some people all the time.
Finally, self righteous clown Tom Mahon would have us believe "that 98% of the ministry were not converted, and at least 95% of the members" implying that he alone is and was among the 5% percent converted. To add to his deluded thinking, the Clown writes, "I also wrote to Carl McNair and Colin Adair about a sermon they gave on predestination, and their replies were so idiotic, they both suddenly died" as if their "idiotic replies" had some connection to their deaths. How do you spell mental illness? T-O-M--M-A-H-O-N!!!
Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God
Richard,
Your irrational, spirited attack is so risible, I almost spill my tea laughing.
Tom, your cult thinking is ridiculous to us. We laugh at you. We pity you.
The latest The Journal is out and it really is special....
Herbert Armstrong not only possessed no managerial / organizational qualities whatsoever, he had no academic credentials, no foresight, no structural visualization, was a boozing alcoholic and most of all, was completely, totally, wholly incompetent as a religious person or a leader at all.
As for Stanley Raider, it should be remembered that in actuality, at the Worldwide Church of God and Ambassador College, NO ONE was in charge.
The only thing in charge with the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia ever is entropy.
The Journal has blown its wad on its nostalgia issues, proving once again that nostalgia is not what it used to be. It also proves just how corrupt Armstrong really was and is: People boxing themselves in to cooperate with a crazy incompetent sociopath for no particularly good reason. If Herbert Armstrong ever worked for me while I was a manager for a misfortune 50 company, I would have documented all his malfeasance, fired him and made sure he never ever got another job. He actually had no skills of any worth except the talent to advertise crap convincingly, but since the business for which I worked didn't see any crap, his one and only skill would have been wasted. With his rebellious nature, lack of skills and narcissistic ego, he would not made it anywhere in the corporate world, being incapable of networking cooperatively with peers. He had to be at the top and in charge... and yet was incapable of doing so and that is why the Worldwide Church of God eventually collapsed.
Moreover, The Journal as a useless rag only really had one good thing in it and that was the praise from Dr. David Barrett, author of Fragmentation of a Sect, for the help and assistance of Gavin Rumney. Dr. Barrett deserves some sort of advanced degree for his work....
As The Journal continues to decline, currently wallowing in the past that The Painful Truth has already documented fairly well and is doing more with the exposition of the value of J. Orlin Grabbe currently, which actually reveals more about Armstrongism of the time in 1974 that the David Antion did in the current The Journal... it's just that Mr. Grabbe is accounted to be a lesser contributor... and yet... he impacted the whole world with his stellar work in Economics, particularly with the exposition of derivatives.
Yes, there was an insipid article about the Alwine situation which reminds us once again the talent a certain editor has for making a toxic waste dump appealing by covering it with a layer of snow. Watch where you step.
David Havir reminds us about the contribution to Armstrongism John Robinson made. It's too bad the son of David Robinson did what he could to cover up his father's book, but it got out anyway in The Tangled Web.
The Journal reminds us of the TV series Roswell, that story of teenage extraterrestrial angst where the three of them were flipping through the channels on TV and said in unison as each channel flipped by, "crap, crap, crap, crap, boring, crap, crap, crap".
We look forward to the next edition of the review of cult entropy where at last we can read the obituary of Roderick Meredith. No doubt The Journal will wallow in the nostalgia about his career -- insulting because he has not only been worthless, but he has ruined the lives of so many people. It will be interesting to see how The Journal whitewashes him....
The URL of The Journal .pdf:
Issue 191.
Be sure to check out the crazy ad on page 12 -- it's in color!
Thanks Mikey.
Black Ops Mikey shouts thus:
>"Herbert Armstrong not only possessed no managerial / organizational qualities whatsoever, he had no academic credentials,"<
If that is true, the same may be said of the Apostle Peter, James and John, just to mention three of Jesus' Apostles who were fishermen. These were branded "ignorant men" by the so-called intellectuals of their day. Yet, Christ said, they had been chosen to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, and that with the gift of the Holy Spirit, they would understand all truth.
Of course, you have one foot in the cesspit of Sodom and the other in the greed and vanity of Gomorrah. So you think that the idiocy of this wotld is wisdom.
I shudder to think what awaits you! For Jesus said, it would better for you if a millstone was tied around your neck, and you were cast alive in the depts of the sea. I wonder is worst?
Tom Mahon spouting nonsense again. Where is the proof that Jesus even existed? Many of the books of the Bible were forged. Even the Jews hold the position that the Old Testament is mostly made up stories there for inspiration.
Any accounts of the Apostle Peter may just be the invention of the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th Century A.D. as Emperor Constantine demanded that the 'Christians' create a book -- so they all got together, hashed out which 4 of the 40 gospels they would include that were copies of copies of the originals written 40, 60 or more years after Christ supposedly died, cobbled together the Epistles of Paul, at least 6 of which we know were forged -- and the book of Second Peter? Totally forged. No one knows why the Book of Revelation was included, but it was written after 70 A.D. as sort of a palliative for those watching the fall of Jerusalem to give them hope that the Roman Emperor of that time would finally be brought to their brand of justice.
Furthermore, Daniel wrote of just 4 major world ruling empires, the last of which has passed from the earth. Others have arisen, but the book of Daniel has failed.
So Tom Mahon makes up his own self-righteous drivel rubbish kooks ideas against the framework of a book which has proven itself to be unreliable, particularly if someone is truly seeking God, if there is one. All this he would have known if he had paid attention to what Gavin wrote over at Otagosh.
For Tom to say I have one foot in the cesspit of Sodom (shouldn't that be cesspool? Oh, no matter) means that he actually hasn't paid much attention to the Bible at all. What, do pray tell, was the sin of Sodom? It had to do with not paying attention to and helping the poor. I have no idea where this room temperature I.Q. Mahon got his ideas about me, but none of them seem to be factual. To say that, in essence, I did not help the poor is an insult and slander. I demand an apology.
Furthermore, to accuse me of the greed and vanity of Gomorrah assumes facts not in evidence. I've made no money from opposing the insanity of Armstrongism. In fact, I've spent quite a lot of money attempting to help people out of the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia -- a group of which Mahon has demonstrated he is in disagreement with (Herbert Armstrong would have disfellowshipped him, if he even noticed Mahon). I think that the idiocy of this world is idiocy and have published as much: I take great exception to the incompetence of the narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths... one of which Mahon is. I take great exception to him.
It would seem to me that if anyone is headed straight for the Lake of Fire (which only exists when our sun becomes a red giant star), it is Tom Mahon. He does not at all have the Holy Spirit and does not exhibit any of the fruit of it. Instead, he exhibits all the works of the flesh.
If any have wisdom at all, they need to take heed of II Timothy 3 -- a prophecy for our time if there were any, be that as it may -- "from such turn away".
Any of you who are following Tom Mahon need to flee from his presence now, lest the wrath of God come upon you. Insanity, even as ignorance is not an excuse.
Tom will only wake up when he's in the lake of fire. And God knows, he deserves it. Self righteous prick that he is.
Black Opts Mickey urges thus:
>"All this he would have known if he had paid attention to what Gavin wrote over at Otagosh."<
I don't pay any notice to the ramblings of dead men. Your blasphemy against the Holy Scriptures, and God's faithful servants mean that you are not far behind Gavin. But Skeptic may just be ahead of you.
Opinionated, Mahon is a demented sick evil wicked empty person whose only interior landscape consists of hatred and anger, devoid of empathy, compassion or anything that passes for godliness or Christianity. God has nothing to do with such people and he has been abandoned as so well described in Jude:
"Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."
He just doesn't get it. He will be in blackness and darkness forever, not that his hatred and anger haven't already put him there as an empty vessel devoid of humanity.
It's a wonder that he is so incompetent that he cannot perceive that the Scriptures are about him. God can't stand him because he is so arrogant filled with hubris. Not even God could tolerate an eternity with him. It's so much better that he will be put out of his misery and will be no more.
The irony is that those of us with humanity can see and understand this, while he lacks any capability to do so.
Black Ops Mickey,
After writing the following:
"Any accounts of the Apostle Peter may just be the invention of the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th Century A.D. as Emperor Constantine demanded that the 'Christians' create a book -- so they all got together, hashed out which 4 of the 40 gospels they would include that were copies of copies of the originals written 40, 60 or more years after Christ supposedly died, cobbled together the Epistles of Paul, at least 6 of which we know were forged -- and the book of Second Peter? Totally forged. No one knows why the Book of Revelation was included,"
You now quote from the Epistle of Jude as authentic? You are not only irrational; you are mad!
Tom, you are a dope. I was once a dope too. So were the others here. We were all duped by that sociopath Herbert Armstrong. The difference is, we've come to our senses. You have not yet done so.
You say "I don't pay any notice to the ramblings of dead men" but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!! You continue to be deluded by the ramblings of dead HWA and his dead accomplices!
Wake up, man! I was once bound and now I'm free! You can be too! Sure, you've been a dope for many years and it's hard to admit it now, but you don't need to keep on being a dope for even one minute longer!
So Tom Mahon doesn't even respond to Scripture (he fell into my trap).
Does that mean he's a de facto atheist?
Maybe that's a rhetorical question.
He thinks he's God.
He probably got that from his early years with the SDAs.
It's a study in sociology to see so many of the Armstrongist 1% act with absolutely positively no accountability whatsoever: They keep doing things that are absolutely condemned by the Bible, but continue to insist they have the moral high ground, when, in fact, they don't really believe what is in Scripture and certainly don't believe that anything in it applies to them.
Hypocrisy lives.
The Bible thumpers are de facto atheists, obviously believing that nothing can touch them, not even God. They do evil because they are evil, but let anyone disagree with them and they will invoke the Wrath of God.
There will be no Kingdom of God for them -- even their holy book tells them that.
How dense can they be, particularly people like Tom Mayhem?
He's dense alright.
Skeptic, the best way to be able to understand Tom Mayhem is that he's a one man cult.
I take great pleasure in being abused by people who have departed from wholesome teachings of the bible. These misguided people, now think that the rantings of the devil is wisdom, and his captivity is freedom.
But for now, I shall go from the presence of those in whom there is no wisdom.
Tom Moron is finished abusing us, I guess.
But by going from the presence of those in whom there is no wisdom, he's going to find it very difficult to get away from himself.
Off topic, but about research, britishisraelism.com is finally more or less reopened again, with the caveat that there is much work to be done yet....
Enjoy (if that's your thing).
The Journal, issue 192 (February 28, 2017) is out now.
Of interest is the story of Jeff Booth meeting with Herbert Armstrong. It did not go well because Herbert Armstrong was a jerk. Jeff asked sincerely and politely about the Primacy of Peter:
“In the course of the three hours and 20 minutes we discussed a number of things, one of the primary ones being the primacy of Peter,” said Mr. Booth. “Mr. Armstrong went into a discussion about having received direct revelation from God Himself of all the truth that he held and stated that he had learned nothing from any man.”
Mr. Booth was taken aback by Mr. Armstrong’s declaration that no man had ever taught him anything. So he asked him: “Did you not learn many of your truths from the Church of God 7th Day?”
“Mr. Armstrong got rather angry when I asked this and told me that, no, he had learned nothing from them. He was merely trying [in the 1930s] to teach leaders of that church the truths that had been revealed to him, and they refused to accept the truth he was trying to teach them.”
“Therefore he felt he couldn’t work with them any longer because they
were not teachable.”
Mr. Booth pressed the point: “Mr. Armstrong, I read J.H. Allen’s book, Judah’s Sceptre and Joseph’s Birthright, and then I immediately reread your United States & British Commonwealth in Prophecy, and I saw whole sections that were nearly identical in the two books. J.H. Allen’s book was written in 1917, and yours
was written in the 1960s. “Since clearly entire sections are nearly word for word, I have to assume that’s where you got the information. I don’t see a problem with
learning from others, but shouldn’t they be given their due?”
At that point Mr. Armstrong fired Mr. Booth as an employee of the Worldwide Church of God. During the conversation Mr. Armstrong terminated Mr. Booth’s employment
a total of seven times.
“He got quite angry and told me they never were the church,” said Mr. Booth. “They merely were the closest thing to the church. When they rejected the truth he tried to reveal to them, then he had nothing more to do with them. He said: ‘I tried to teach them the truth God revealed to me, but they wouldn’t accept it. I was never a part of their organization.’ He said he had never worked for them and had never
been paid a dime by them.”
...
Herbert Armstrong was not only delusional, he was a liar too. In The Journey: A History of the Church of God (Seventh Day), by Robert Coulter, in Chapter 23, Robert Coulter documents the specifics using bone fide documents that Herbert Armstrong lied.
God didn't teach him anything.
He was not teachable.
Thanks Mikey.
200th comment. Gavin would be proud. I don't know what the record is.
I am struck by the strong parallels between the approach of Donald Trump and the methodology of HWA. They seem to have been poured from the same crucible. It demonstrates that the cultural and media characteristics of Armstrongism have nothing to do with some spiritual center of gravity. It is just the way that secular humans operate when behaving autocratically. I can't help but believe that many Armstrongists are secretly enamored of The Donald and his White Nationalist advisors and hope for the success of his regime.
If the "god" that taught HWA directly taught him heresy and the utterly disproved science fiction of British Israelism, who was that "god"?
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