Tuesday, 29 November 2016

A Farewell to Arms

This is likely, highly likely, to be the final Ambassador Watch or Otagosh posting. Those who know me as more than a cantankerous blogger also know that I've been fighting, without great success, a serious health situation. In the time I have left there are clearly other priorities, and I commend Gary's blog as a great place to keep "in the loop".

I guess I want to say that there's very little I regret. If I've horribly offended anyone unjustly, I apologize. There are a lot of good people in the COGs, battling on, as we all do, according to our best insights. The blogs will stay up, for what they're worth, even if only curiosity value.

Special thanks to everyone who has engaged in creative conversation here.



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Black Ops Mikey said...

In some ways, Donald Trump and Herbert Armstrong were not similar.

For example, Herbert Armstrong didn't finish high school. Donald Trump completed a bachelor's degree in economics at the University of Pennsylvania, one of the eight private colleges and universities in the vaunted Ivy League. Moreover, though the liberal media and Democrats have demonized him for being racist, he isn't. He's also not homophobic, but Herbert Armstrong really, really was. Another great difference is that his children are well-heeled and while he may have many other faults, child rearing deficiencies are not among them. Could Herbert Armstrong have said the same? President Donald Trump also has a Jewish son-in-law. Herbert Armstrong did not.

Donald Trump attended Fordham University, a Jesuit school in the Bronx, for two years. He also was sent to the New York Military Academy at age 13 by his parents. This means that he knows something real about Catholicism and at least had a background in it. Herbert Armstrong did not. He also has had an education in discipline. It's pretty clear Herbert Armstrong did not.

It is concerning that the President has a penchant for eating fast foods. It's not healthy for him. Nevertheless, he has a lot of energy and at 70 years old his staff has difficulty keeping up with him. He has certainly shown every effort to keep his campaign promises, even if a lot of people don't like what he's doing. It's also concerning that he's not careful with some of his fact checking, but that's sort of the methodology of a telescopic view dynamic Executive, not that Herbert Armstrong was ever given to making accurate statements, so they share that. What is amazing that some of the statements that President Trump have made that sounded so outlandish have been proven to be true, such as what he said about Sweden and the immigrants. The truth is being sorted out about breaches in national security by people leaking secrets illegally -- a felony, but it does show so far that the President isn't just paranoid.

So I have some distresses with some things about President Donald Trump, BUT... and this is a big BUT, under duress such as no President has ever faced with deliberate lies and opposition to him with what we would term 'dirty tricks' by his enemies, he's doing better than expected. I suspect that he will end up to be less than successful because of those who want to undermine the Presidency and really, really want to change the nature of the United States by people who do not honor or respect the Constitution of the rule of law.

It would be interesting to see how things would be if such people gained control. It might take awhile, but if I were a betting man, I'd say that Americans would be that the autocrats who take over would find a way to make the middle class very poor, overwhelm the United States with illegal immigrants who are real criminals (and I would know since my daughter was involved with two of them) all in a promotion of globalization where the United States would bankrupt itself in order to provide poor people who should have been provided for by their bountifully resource rich countries when the leaders of the same countries oppress the poor for the benefit of the rich and those who rule the country, you know, like Mexico. If the country is so resource rich and such a good country, why do people want to escape it, do pray tell? And while you're at it, why not go pick on the leaders of those countries who should do right by their people but do not?

If things work the way do elsewhere, there's only 99 more posts until a rollover occurs and all the current posts disappear and begin with post #300.

The Skeptic said...

They're both
- psychopaths
- profoundly ignorant
- reckless
- can't distinguish fact from fiction
- can't tell right from wrong
- self-centered, selfish narcissists
- authoritarian
- offer quick-and-easy "just so" answers to every question
- Con Men
- above all else, self-aggradizing
- very scary

Opinionated said...


Are you really going to place you politics here on Gavin's blog? Your doing a Tom Mahon.
Shame on you. No one gives a damn about your libtard views. This blog must not be stripped of it's dignity, TOM.

Miller Jones said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Black Ops Mikey said...

Opinionated, don't you know that in this modern world of liberal globalists that opposing such opinions with facts is a personal attack on them and hence a hate crime!!??

nck said...

We have Mickey and Neo here as the Angels guarding the Garden of Eden long after Adam and Eve left.

Discussing the decay of the garden that now also to them seems a myth but once a reality with inhabitants, people and a way of living within the boundaries set by that mythical kingdom.

And now all that is left is that annoying guarding, watching the decay in the garden and frankly watching mankind live on with even more people adhering to armstrongist principles than ever before.

And I am not referring to the splinters but the millions of people having a liking for items like "feast of tabernacles", mainstream evangelicals having accepted nearly the entire Armstrongist prophecy mold and the pope looking into the possiblity of having married priests while hugging the protestants and the jewish roots of christianity.

Like beating a dead horse while the mongol hordes are at the doorstep.
What's the use of calling a story a myth that has been so hugely influential in having the Brits rule 80% of the earth, the Americans taking over, now in transition with the other
Anglo Saxon brothers through Echelon in combination with Nato partners.

It served its purpose. Too late to call it a myth now. It was reality.


nck said...

HWA and tge current presidency have absolutely NOTHING in common,

HWA was an internationalist, weaving the American web of "soft power" diplomacy.

Most diplomats are concerned today with the rapid demise of American soft power and authority. (not its military power) but the power to get things done through moral authority.

HWA served the cause of the UN as an extension of US foreign power.

Donald Trump seems to be a nationalist concerned about domestic issues. While HWA was about world empire. In that sense Trump is more like GTA and his son is continuing in that tradition in an even more radical way.

I have seen HWA, I have worked with HWA and .......no Mr Trump ....you are not HWA.


Black Ops Mikey said...

The only real impact British Israelism is the tragedy at Ruby Ridge and who remembers that these days?

nck is correct: Herbert Armstrong and President Donald Trump have nothing in common -- not education (Herbert Armstrong didn't have any), real success in business and if anyone thinks that Herbert Armstrong could ever win the presidency of the United States these days even with Electoral Votes, they are sadly profoundly delusional. Yes, Herbert Armstrong squandered billions of dollars, but his children didn't turn out even 20% as well as President Donald Trump's children have.

As for kicking dead horses, there's no evidence that the UCG, CoGWA, PCG, LCG, PKG, RCG are dead and gone yet, but there's plenty of evidence they are still doing lots of harm, which spills over to society at large in various ways, like, say, Child Protective Services and Mental Health Facilities.

At bare minimum, we may help one or two people now and then who might be looking to join up. Sorry, we probably won't make inroads in Africa, but in the scheme of things Armstrongism is the least of their problems (although the leadership style of their 1% may be very similar with inflated egos, misuse of power and scamming their followers -- sociopaths are very similar where ever they are... although, surprisingly, the webstats do have an 'International' flavor to them in third world countries).

Facts matter. (Maybe not as much as some races, it seems.)

nck said...

Yes, Mickey you are right. People from wicked nations are reading this blog. I often wonder whether these people were involved in armstrongism or learning to master the art of "fake news" from the both of us and bring that to use in secular pursuits. If so, then indeed we have become teachers in the world tomorrow as defined by nck. Regards Nck

Near_Earth_Object said...

The Skeptic nailed it. Black Ops has given us an whitewash for a sociopath. Does anyone have the whitewash brush to give to Black Ops? I find it droll that Trumps utter lack of appreciation for truth and his bumbling attempt to manipulate facts to favor himself is characterized as a "telescopic view." Anybody else would simply call a liar, a liar.

I put my statement about Trump on this page because I believe he compares with HWA in many important respects, some listed by Skeptic. But let me just mention that both men are severely crippled by the ponderous weight of an enormous ego.

I have no regrets about putting this kind of political observation in Gavin's blog. The comparison to Mahon seems fatuous. And I am not a liberal - I am just right of center like most Americans. I just don't understand the Loony Tunes going on in Washington, DC right now. And Trump is only appearing to keep his promises - like the recent Health Care fiasco.

The free press is the enemy of both Trump and HWA. And rightly it should be. They smell a fish and so should we all.

The Skeptic said...

Certainly HWA differed from Trump in many ways also. I only listed many of the commonalities; I did not mean to imply they are alike in every respect. On the other hand, to say they have "nothing in common" is also untrue.

One of Gavin's greatest talents was to present a balanced picture. He didn't rant, he was never vehement, he wasn't hateful or nasty. He presented a nuanced point of view acknowledging that there are many sides to every story. And he mostly stayed out of politics.

nck said...

HWA admired Reagan very much. HWA prided himself that the Armstrongs were 17th century American pedigree even if simple quaker folk. Trump is nouveau riche even according to American standards. Yes I miss Gavin too and find myself at "Bereans" now and then if I m in need of some Gavinistic balance. Nck

nck said...

If there are real professional reading, perhaps they could offer some insight into wether HWA was operating grom this alleged "huge ego" that I often hear about or from an "inferiority complex." In my opinion it is the latter because I am allergic to huge ego personalities, but never phased by people with inferior education or pedigree to mine since even in high office the second never raise their voice to me somehow. (as was the case with hwa) Nck

Near_Earth_Object said...


What is Bereans? I tried "Banned by HWA" and found that the blog galloped through so many topics so quickly that there was no time for reflection. I put in a comment and checked back a little later to see if anyone responded and could not even find the comment again. In fact, I did not find the issue that I commented on. It had probably already been archived.


I, too, do not believe that HWA and Trump are alike in every way. But I think their flaws are quite similar.

The Skeptic said...

Can we get a link to "Bereans"?

Opinionated said...

The painful truth has all the links

nck said...

Hi guys,

I'm not really into the marketing of the one philosophical blog/idea over the other.

I do understand what you are saying.

I find "banned" to be incredibly open toward visitors and commenters. And the blogmaster has a particularly funny way of introducing topics. (For instance when Dpack talks about jesus looking like mary, the master introduces the topic with a "black madonna and black jesus portrait.) On a philosophical basis they do a good job in exposing some of the more crazy ideas or leadership in the splinters. Dave Pack and Bob Thiel seem to be favorites. However I must honestly say that I would have never heard about most of the splinters if it hadn't been for the dissident blogs. Regulars from within the more moderate splinters find their remarks somewhat "over the top." But I am not in the position to judge that.
It is good to take a vacation now and then from "banned" or one could become a member of the D (rat) Packs because of the huge flow of information indeed.

I find 'painful truth" more of an "artistic protest movement". Kind of like hip hop gangstah rap of armstrongism. They are shifting toward a more "learned" approach but have a definite "getto flavor" surrounding them. "admit that hwa was the devil or we shoot". I'm reminded of painful truth whenever I visit MoMa or one of their worldwide dependances. Not for the fainthearted.

"bereans" and "miller jones blogspot" talk more about philosophical topics and dig deeper for questions about the nature of christianity. They occassionally comment on armstrongist topics but in the end they consider that a thing of the past and have moved on to greener (christian) pastures. So those are not the blogs to "poke fun" about silly Bob Thiel. But rather discuss how "christmas trees" enhance or at least do not quench the "holy spirit" if you are into that kind of discussion.

Gavin had that unique perspective of his "protestant" education and his "soft spoken" anglo manners. Although in the end he seemed to be somewhat "recruited" or flattered by the attention of the radical anti- armstrongist blogs. I hate it when they band together. I believe they all have unique strenghts and weaknesses depending on the perspectives of the blogmaster.

Since I am not into any interpretation of any holy scripture. I usually limit myself to commenting on the larger perspective and world in which HWA operated. For instance the Cold War and the psychology of that era. But my well intentioned remarks that a dollar spent on the worldwildlife fund by aicf was a dollar well spent is usually recieved with scepticism by those that feel that in their experience the cost has outweighed any benefits

I do not dispute their personal experiences. I usually just express my opinion.
Sometimes slowly my opinions gain some recognition by 1975 dissenters believing wcg ended that date while in reality it reached its peak in 1989. So I am learning from the experiences and hardships some experienced in the fifties and sixties. While perhaps others can see that their percieved (or real) bad experience with armstrongism in the end was just one piece of a big ikea cupboard that fell apart, like all human devised systems will fall appart.

Don't believe for a moment that the Romans fathomed the collapse of the empire.


nck said...

By the way.

Even if I don't always agree. If we are talking about "ambassador quality' in reporting I would highly recommend, pam dewey's meet myth america. I really should spent more time there. But hey, there are times I need to be shallow.


Tom Mahon said...

I looked to find that the insane are still here posting nonsense. One of the inmates wrote "218 comments, Gavin would be proud." Well, Gavin didn't believe in eternal life, except on the lips of those who praise him after his death.

But like the rich man, I bet he wishes that he could send someone to warn his admirers to behave themselves, less they join him in hell fire. But he has also been told, "if one rises from the dead, they still won't believe him."

Is Opinionated still alive?

The Skeptic said...

Get a life Tom.

You dope.

The Painful Truth said...

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
-Proverbs 26:4

Leave Tom alone. He is spiritually dead. Lead the dead bury the dead.

Near_Earth_Object said...

A worry I have comes out of the pages of the novel 1984 by Orwell. We now have a glut of conspiracy theories and fake news - some of it engineered by the Russians to influence our internal politics.

Back on the Ambassador BS Campus in the late Seventies, conspiracy theories were very popular. Some of then came out of the far right, neo-nazi press. They involved:

1. The Trilateral Commission
2. The International Monetary Fund
3. The Federal Reserve
4. Distrust of the Federal Government in general
5. Stanley Rader
6. Anti-Semitism
7. Anti-Gentile as British Israelism defined Gentiles
8. Liberal humanism was the bogeyman
9. Right wing politics and thinking was the "truth"

I think most AC students were apolitical. They were more interested in who was dating whom and who was likely to be sent out into the field ministry. But I think a few had a recognition of this shift towards conspiracy theories within the WCG.

Then there was "the grapevine" and all kinds of internal dissent going on.

In view of this Pasadena segued into the role of Ministry of Truth like in 1984 to protect the brethren. I worry that this will happen in our government at this time. Washington will proclaim that it will be the final arbiter of what is true and what is false to protect us citizens. A Ministry of Truth will be established.

The current administration seems to be repeating WCG's history.

The Skeptic said...

And don't forget the pseudoscience that was rampant in the church back in the 70's and 80's. The comet Kahoutek is coming? It must be the end of the world! All the planets are "lining up". This time it REALLY must be the end of the world!! And so on ad nauseum.

At times, listening to this stuff after church services really made me wonder about some of my fellow true believers. They just wanted the end to come SO BADLY.

Near_Earth_Object said...

Wanting the world to end because it is a bad place and will be replaced by something better is ethically sound. Someone wanting the world to end so that he can watch it all go to hell in a hand-basket from a vantage point of safety and security is simply self-centered. My guess is that there was a lot of the latter in the WCG. The congregations consisted of a lot of people who were marginalized in society who felt they had struck it rich with Armstrongism. Alas, they just remain marginalized and Armstrongism has pushed them further away from anything good.

Near_Earth_Object said...

I am appalled at the views of a guy named Tabor expressed in the recent issue of Cartwright's paper. His statements are an apologia for Armstrongism that equates to the inordinacy of saying that heresy is just "a fresh view of things". Throughout he seems to have misidentified the dynamics of a cult as valid Christian experience. I am sure that the Jim Jones crowd had lots of zeal, too. The same with the David Koresh crowd.

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Tom Mahon said...

I thought I would look in on the forum to see who is still alive, but limping towards death. With a degree of surprise, I note that since the 10th of March, none of the crazy people who think that abusing HWA is a sport have posted any abuse.

Will someone please update on what has happened to The Skeptic, Black Ops Mikey, Opinionated and Richard?

I suspect that the rest of Gavin's fan club have evacuated the building, as the ghost of Gavin makes an awful noise.

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Tom Mahon said...

As usual, all the comments on this blog are meaningless. Does anyone here know anything?

I believe that one of the brain dead people here, who are now "supervising" this blog, deleted my last comment. He or she may delete, but what I say will come to pass.

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Tom Mahon said...

I see that Gavin is having eternal life on the lips of those who are still alive to praise him. WShen they are all dead, he will then be truly dead!

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