(Erster tiel)
Paul Kieffer is highly regarded by his elder-colleagues in UCG, and has been elected as an international member of the COE (check out his profile.) Paul is also a keen contributor to the Elders' Forum, and not exactly stand-offish about putting radical ideas up for debate. Consider this example...
Paul Kieffer (Bonn, Germany)
This message may be shared.
I appreciated the positive comments made re: the Living Church of God's media efforts. My father-in-law John Burquist is an elder in LCG. On several occasions my wife Monica and I have attended LCG services as guests, accompanying Mr. Burquist. Other than one time when brief mention was made in the sermon on LCG's understanding of New Testament governance, everything I heard was pretty much identical to what UCG teaches. The atmosphere at services was -- well, like at UCG services. :-)
"Chicago Bill" Bradford mentioned the potential synergy effect between our two organizations.
This topic may be especially interesting in the non-English language areas where there is considerable duplication of effort in producing materal [sic] with basically the same message. Via my good contacts in LCG, some years ago I inquired informally about the possibility of "joint publishing" a booklet in German where UCG's and LCG's beliefs are practically identical. For various reasons the idea went nowhere.
Personally I prefer the proactive approach, rather than inertia. I take comments seriously relayed to me from a fellow elder about what some young people say who fellowship across organizational boundaries. "Wait till the older generation dies off, then we'll get this impasse resolved," is what some of those young people think.
The recently revised guidelines for accepting an invitation to speak outside UCG have no effect on the policy re: required approval for non-UCG speakers being invited to speak at UCG.
I don't know how it could be worded, but I think a revision of that policy to exempt or to "soften" the required highest level approval for an LCG elder to speak at UCG would be a very positive signal toward LCG (without UCG expecting any reciprocal action being taken by LCG in return).
Is UCG "big" enough to take this first small step for CoG mankind? :-)
I think we are.
This is the bold new step... or at least one of the bold new steps (yes Mildred, there are others) that the UCG's leading lights are tossing around.
Of course, after years of "reading between the lines" in order to make sense of the machinations of the lads in Pasadena, it is possible to be just a tad cynical about this particular suggestion...
(Zweiter tiel to follow)
37 comments:
What, United's CoE is considering a merger with Spanky?!?!
Do Questeruk or MJ have an opinion on this? What do you think of that? (And please don't think I'm picking on you unnecessarily; you're just the only two United members "on the ground" who feel comfortable enough to comment openly on these forums.)
As for the "radical idea", I can see why some in United might resist being brought under Iron Rod's thumb again; but they've got to remember, much as he likes to hang on to life by both teeth and his remaining toenails, Spanky is no longer the sharpest tack on the board; witness the kerfuffle over the LCG college staff member's wife from last year. That wouldn't have been on, if it had happened on Herbie's watch. Even when he was on his deathbed.
Maybe the United CoE is making a play for the LCG tithers, because they sense weakness in the old man? Like a pack of wolves, culling the herd.......
Merger? Is that what Christ would do? Compromise? "I'll give you one government doctrine in exchange for a new Passover date. Deal? Deal. Let's do this!"
Don't be distracted by any new policies. Each group remains superior to the other in their own opinion and that will never change. HWA's 18 restored truths are not about uniting through common ground. Rather, they taught us to hold on to our man-made doctrines and judge the rest of the world harshly until they come to our understanding.
If LCG and UCG combine efforts, it will inevitably lead to more divisions (in each organization). "Older generations dying off" may not mean much. My generation was equally indoctrinated. Sure, I'm free of all of this BS, but my sister is CRAZY!
Purple Hymnal said...
“Do Questeruk or MJ have an opinion on this?”
Like on most things, yes I do have an opinion!!
However, as PH is linking me with UCG I feel I need to point out that any opinions I express on this blog, (or any other blog for that matter), are just that - my opinions. If they also happen reflect the views of UCG – then fine, if they don’t – then fine too. That is my ‘Caveat Emptor’ if you like.
Personally I can’t see any merger happening all the time Dr M is running LCG, but common sense tell you that at his age he is unlikely to be around too many more years. After that it would probably depend who ends up as their ‘one man leader’.
UCG and LCG have had talks in the past. Back in the days of Global and UCG under D Hulme there were meetings, but they seemed to come to nothing.
After the Global/Living split, the Global section was in serious talks with UCG, which resulted in around two thirds of them merging with UCG, and the other approximate one third forming an alternative independent group. So there was actually some merging at that point.
Most of the differences between the two groups seem to be in the area of ‘church government’. Many in LCG want a ‘one man’ leader; many in UCG strongly do NOT want a one man leader, they are happy that the president can change to a different person, and the ‘old’ president still be on board, and playing an active part in the organisation.
No one since the first president has ‘picked up their toys’, and gone off because they are no longer president. Within the COG history I feel that is a bit of an achievement in itself.
I think Paul Kieffer’s statement "Wait till the older generation dies off, then we'll get this impasse resolved," truly is “what some of those young people think.” (And some older one’s too).
Should there ever be serious merger talks, you can be sure of one thing:-
Instead of two groups, there will be three groups – a merged UCG/LCG group, an LCG group of those that cannot stomach merging with UCG, and a similar UCG group that cannot bring themselves to merge with LCG.
The sizes of the three groups would show just how successful or unsuccessful this merging process actually was.
If Kieffer wants it...his buddies on the UCG Council will make it happen. Remember that the balance of power on UCG's Council has shifted to a group of men who are long time friends and can be easily identified by their participation in the World News and Prophecy newsletter. They are nearly inseperable, vote together as a bloc (everytime so far), and are very agressive in pushing their agenda and approach.
"Like a pack of wolves, culling the herd......."
That is the more likely scenario. In my experience they never do anything for the greater good - personal interest always trumps everything else.
Extract from Paul Kieffer's statement...
>>I appreciated the positive comments made re: the Living Church of God's media efforts. My father-in-law John Burquist is an elder in LCG. On several occasions my wife Monica and I have attended LCG services as guests, accompanying Mr. Burquist. Other than one time when brief mention was made in the sermon on LCG's understanding of New Testament governance, everything I heard was pretty much identical to what UCG teaches.<<
***********************************
This approach is typical of people who are in, for example, LCG but have relatives in UCG. I remember Carl McNair getting hot under the collar, because I said that the ministers in UCG are hirelings! You see, Carl had relatives in UCG, and he didn't want to believe that they were attending with heretics, however obvious that might have been! So Paul Kieffer is of the same mindset as Carl.
Paul's obvious mindset is, "blood is thicker than truth." So although Paul's father-in-law is a hireling in Meredith's heresy, and Paul is a hireling in UCG, Paul desperately wants to believe that he, his father-in-law and the hirelings in UCG will all meet together in the kingdom of God, though none them is entering in via the "straight gate."
If the only thing that separates Paul from LCG is governance, and his love for his father-in-law is so enduring, why not join LCG instead of trying to persuade the hirelings in UCG to adopt a policy, with which most disagree?
But I suspect that Paul's love for his father-in-law is not as strong as his love for the autonomy he enjoys in the German office, and the salary that goes with it.
If Paul reads this he may remember the discussions we had in the late 1990s on Compuserve Forum, and how I exposed his contrivances!
Purple Hymnal, I'm not sure what to say about this, it's news to me. Could be a good thing. Hey, why not!? I have many good friends in LCG and when we get together for dinners and such we often wondered WHY our churches are NOT together. As Questeruk has also observed, we conclude it has more to do with church governance than doctrinal differences. One is top down, reminiscent of old WCG days, and the other is controlled by a board of Elders.
Who knows...only time will tell. Based on the post I would caution against getting too worked up over this. This simply sounds like someone (Mr. Kieffer?) is putting the idea out there to see if it floats or sinks. Though, it does sound like he has tapped into what many of us are thinking...
Why not recombine? After all, if spun-off pieces of AT&T can get back together, why not splintered pieces of WCG?
In response to Questeruk...
"UCG and LCG have had talks in the past. Back in the days of Global and UCG under D Hulme there were meetings, but they seemed to come to nothing."
This is really part of the of distrust of the LCG with the UCG. Meredith was never invited to these meetings. Creating a bit of distrust with the UCG and the intentions of UCG.
"Most of the differences between the two groups....the area of ‘church government’. Many in LCG want a ‘one man’ leader; many in UCG strongly do NOT want a one man leader......"
The LCG members have had government engrained into them. Meredith is continually using the term social club in regards to UCG. The local pastors will continually talk about government.
"many in UCG strongly do NOT want a one man leader...." Not sure if Q is talking about members or elders in this statement. Since the UCG members really do not have any say whatsoever in who is selected and even how it comes about, with the exception that there is a voting structure among the eldership.
Some wonder if a real work of any kind would ever be done or just the continued hope of a work.
While LCG has an appearance of doing a work, the UCG uses the words in headlines and talks, with nothing of substance backing it up.
LCG has a TV presence that costs some money, it brings in results, but there is not much that is sustainable.
The UCG keeps changing its focus, first the magazine, then build a studio with a psuedo TV presence on cable access channels. "The Wayne's World Tomorrow" (party on Wayne....)
Now they keep focus on the web. But really, they talk about number of hits they get with no results for the man hours they invest in it. The Web is a straw man.
Now there is a focus on 'Making Disciples.' But when you look at the substance of what they say that is, there is very little said in a direct way. For instance Kilow says it is being righteous and humble or something like that.
UCG and LCG have a lot in common though. The families running things have this thing for their kids and relatives having opportunities and positions and ordinations.
What the general membership does not know is that many in the full time ministry in both camps think there is a family calling with this ministerial or elder thing. So a ministers kid will be most likely one who would be in the ministry eventually. What a great way to keep the money coming in and to guarantee their futures.
LCG is the Spanky and Our Family Gang. UCG is the greater former WCG ministry keep the income and perks coming with a retirement plan to boot.
The world economy is in shambles and these guys are living off the members. You have ministers in homes, with cars, healthcare, future hope of a retirement, reimbursements for the feast and other travel all paid for out of the generosity of the membership that pays their way.
I think members who read this should really look at how the ministers in any of the groups act toward regular members. The ministry seems overly cynical, lacking empathy at times. Being cynical, with snide comments and terse responses to someones plight or other question goes back to much of the training these people have.
Maybe the believers would wake up to the way things are and request an accounting and a change.
MJ observed:
"One is top down, reminiscent of old WCG days, and the other is controlled by a board of Elders."
Both groups are top down. The difference is that in UCG there are more people at the top and each one of them has a chance to have the prestige and salary of President. For those who are power hungry in the LCG this would give them at least a chance to be top dog, if only for a while. At present only the death of Merideth and a subsequent war among the factions would lead to one of them being installed at the top. All the rest would have to wait for yet another death. If I were a LCG insider with a lust for the brass ring, and the key to the executive washroom, the UCG proposal would be enticing.
Doug Winnail of LCG recently remarried his wife of UCG after divorcing several years ago. This will help make way for LCG and UCG to merge. He's got buddies in UCG and reportedly helped arrange recent LCG/UCG meetings. In this bad economy, a merger makes perfect business sense to greedy executives looking out for themselves. Doctrinal differences and what's best for the flock are secondary when it comes down to the bottom line. You can bet contingency plans are in the works for when RCM dies. These hirelings are out to cover their own assets and protect their lucrative incomes. When they announce the merger to their unsuspecting members, you can bet they will claim Christ has miraculously brought them together. Question is will it be named the Living United COG or the United Living COG?
Anonymous (Wed Jun 17, 11:36:00 AM) said...
“What the general membership does not know is that many in the full time ministry in both camps think there is a family calling with this ministerial or elder thing. So a ministers kid will be most likely one who would be in the ministry eventually. What a great way to keep the money coming in and to guarantee their futures.”
While this may have been true in WCG, and it gives the ‘sound bite’ that many on this blog like to hear, perhaps a ‘reality check’ is in order.
For UCG, figures released at the recent GCE shows that over 70% of the ministry is over 60 years old, and 100% are over 40 years old. Also that over 60% of the ministry are Unpaid!
Not a great career prospect for these ‘ministers kids’! Wait until you are at least 40 years old, and you may get a job. If you do, chances are it will be an unpaid - but even if it is paid, the salary is not actually that great.
Anyone looking for a ‘career’ is much better off getting a job in the commercial world. At least they pay you there!
Douglas Winnail had a divorce and then they were later reconciled! Really!? No one told me about that before.
Will UCG unite with LCG? Not with RCM. But considering that LCG is RCM I think after he dies a merger could very well be possible. The only major issue I see will be governance.
LCG's very identity is intimately tied up with RCM. His seniority in the ministry is used to justify LCG's existence. Once he's gone it will be very difficult to maintain legitimacy in that fashion. Embracing UCG could be justified as a way of gaining the legitimacy of the largest Armstrongite group.
Of course it entirely depends on what the leaderships of UCG and LCG decide to do. Post-RCM LCG could easily decide to go it alone or merge. There is no way to tell.
"It's the Social Club, Stupid!"
Let's not forget UCG's prime directive; "Thou shalt not break up the Social Club!"
UCG will always be open to new members no matter what wind of doctrine comes through the door. However, LCG won't allow it because their prime directive is a bit different. It states, Honor thy Meredith! The folks in UCG won't stomach any one person leading their flock.
Dr. Winnail has said in several sermons, which can be found on their website, that when someone asks about LCG's one man government he says "What one-man government? We have the counsel". He then refers to their counsel of elders. So maybe in his mind LCG is already like UCG and when the time is right, they'll both get together.
Lobe den Herren den Maechtigen Koenig...this is one song that Wagner probably never sang.
What was that inscription on the wall that divided the two Germanies, "Wir sind nicht Geteiltet" ( " we are not divided").
Similarly,UCG and LCG may be in the initial throes of merger discussions,just like their Protestant brethren from the main British churches.
Spanky and dear Gerry
Have reason to be merry;
A political coalition
May some come to fruition.
Lobe den Herren,Hallelujah,Brueder.
Jorgheinz
"What one-man government? We have the counsel". He then refers to their counsel of elders."
That's what Global Church of God thought. "WHAT one-man government?"
Oh, but Spanky IS God's government. God's #1 representative on Planet Earth! Until he soon becomes your God, of course, and you fall down and worship Spanky.
Cyclops
Questeruk says:
"a reality check is in order."
So you don't think their salaries are that great? Well, here is a Canadian reality check. Unlike the US and other countries, Canadian law requires charities to publish, not all, but at least a few of the important details which are generally hidden from most members.
In 2008 there were 5 full time paid mythsters in Canada. The total salaries, benefits, and honoraria for last year was $606,986. That works out to an average of $121,397. By Canadian standards that is a very nice paycheque indeed! I can't see how their counterparts in other countries would stand back and let the Canadians be paid way more they they get, so it is a safe bet that they all get something similar, adjusted for the difference in cost of living for different countries of course.
Don't believe everything you hear from the pulpit Quester. They are never going to want it to be known that they are making anywhere from double to triple what the average member makes. That would be bad for business!
Let's see, $121,000 Canadian total benefits. That is about $100,000 American. That is not very much.
If you are the minister of any decent size American church, you probably make that easily, and more.
A Modest Merger Proposal for Die Meistersinger von Bonn
Mein Herr Marquis, ein Mann wie Sie
Sollt’ besser das verstehn,
Darum rate ich, ja genauer sich
Die Leute anzusehen!
Die Hand ist doch wohl gar zo fein, hahaha.
Dies Füsschen so zierlich und klein, hahaha.
Die Sprache, die ich führe
Die Taille, die Tournüre,
Dergleichen finden Sie
Bei einer Zofe nie!
Fledermaus
It's not easy figuring out why the "Ex-WCG" things happen as they do.
My wife had a theory, and it's all about boobs, so it got me thinking.
Now I'm wondering if Doug Winnail's wife has perky boobs.
According to my wife, there would be little incentive for Doug Winnail to marry a gal of a different denomotation unless she had perky boobs.
Phrontistes said...
“In 2008 there were 5 full time paid mythsters in Canada. The total salaries, benefits, and honoraria for last year was $606,986. That works out to an average of $121,397. By Canadian standards that is a very nice paycheque indeed!”
Hi Phrontistes. UK law also requires charities to publish basic accounts. (Probably where the Canadian law came from!!!).
Your calculation is rather ‘simplistic’, because it’s not just a matter of dividing total salaries, benefits and honoraria by five. That will give a distorted picture.
While there may be 5 full time paid ministers in Canada, there are definitely more than five ministers located there, so I assume the rest are unpaid. They too would travel, and they would be able to claim certain expenses for travelling, mileage for example. Their claims would be part of this ‘pot’.
Expenses may well also include other ‘unordained’ people travelling on church business.
Also how about office staff? Are there any full time or part time employees there? I think there are – if so, then again their salaries would also be in this pay figure.
I don’t know the Canadian set-up, but I would be surprised if the average ministerial salary for these 5 ministers was even half the figure you quoted.
Teddy's wife thinks it's all about boobs.
I think she may be right. They are all a bunch of boobs, except those headlights don't shine (running on dead batteries) and most of them aren't very perky.
"Let's see, $121,000 Canadian total benefits. That is about $100,000 American. That is not very much.
If you are the minister of any decent size American church, you probably make that easily, and more."
You would know, Larry, you would know.
The fact that you think a SIX FIGURE SALARY is "not very much" attests more than all your protestations, that you really ARE a member of the ministry in WCG/GCI. And likely have been, for a considerable amount of time.
"Paul Kieffer is highly regarded by his elder-colleagues in UCG"
May I ask which colleagues. His "friends on the alternate forum"
Does he dare list his friends on the alternate forum or does he cause division.
Talks have been going on with LCG for years and this is nother new.
Paul should talk to elders in UCG and try to seek reconcilation from within before branching out.
Sorry PH,
I am not a minister. I am not even ordained. But, I think I do detect an element of class envy in your posts. Apparently though, you have never made $100,000/yr. If you had, you would know that it doesn't go nearly as far as you imagine.
I am not sure how some folks speaking at each other's services suggests merger, but the comments about a merger leading to three orgs are correct. We have the 1949 merger of Salem and Stanberry (into the General Conference in Denver) as a precedent, but the merged org is very much alive and growing in that case, while the 2 others (consisting of those who did not support the merger [and their disciples]) appear to be dying out.
In any event, a UCG and LCG merger would be a step in the right direction, and then if the whole thing could somehow merge with COG7 (a dream of course) maybe we would see some real work being done.
This guy is a great example of most of the COG wasteland that exists today. I'm not surprised that he is surprised that the services are nearly identical to UCG! They are ALL FUNDAMENTALLY THE SAME, they were all schooled in Armstrongism! Can I use more CAPITALIZATION or EXCLAMATION POINTS!
Get a life, merge together. The elders can go to a bar and work out their differences. Since size matters for them (as far as spiritual zeal and the perception of doing "The Work"), then they need all the help they can get.
"The fact that you think a SIX FIGURE SALARY is "not very much" attests more than all your protestations, that you really ARE a member of the ministry in WCG/GCI."
That's just silly. $100,000, in today's (U.S.) economy doesn't go very far when you factor in modest housing, transportation, feeding and clothing a family, and saving for retirement. Maybe in the 80s (which is where so many of us are stuck in) that would seem like a lot. But, that is nearly 30 years ago.
Sounds a lot like class envy to me.
Quester is skeptical:
"While there may be 5 full time paid ministers in Canada, there are definitely more than five ministers located there, so I assume the rest are unpaid. They too would travel, and they would be able to claim certain expenses for travelling, mileage for example. Their claims would be part of this ‘pot’."
You are a lot like I used to be; all too willing to believe everything they tell you. I finally woke up when I got documented proof that they were lying to me.
As to your willingnes to make excuses for them, here are more facts.
There is only one part-time employee and he/she gets paid $22,260. I already deducted that from the total salary figure, so that still leaves $121,397 per mythter. As for travel expenses that adds up to another $155,000 which includes the mythters leased vehicles. So you can add a few more thousands to the $121K. Then you can add another couple of grand for the fancy lap-top computers that each one gets. That is covered under yet another category, and is not part of the $121K. Oh, and did I mention that all their housing costs are completely tax free? In most parts of Canada that figure would amount to about 30% of their salary.
In conclusion, all the things you speculated about are included in other parts of the report and are not part of the $121,397. Add to that free car and gas(petrol to you), free lap-top, and tax free housing. Not a bad living, especially when you can con someone else into providing it. And all they have to do is come up with a boring sermon once a week.
That's just silly. $100,000, in today's (U.S.) economy doesn't go very far when you factor in...
Yeah, when you factor in a big 2 story 6 bedroom house in a gated community, drive a new BMW every year (a Mercedes for the wife). Yeah, I can see where the money might be a little tight.
OTOH, someone who is $70,000 less fortunate than your $100,000 and who also is paying 10%,20% and 30% tithes so that someone else, like you, can have $100,000 a year or more to waste on luxury ... well, that sucks.
I don't begrudge someone who actually earns that much money but for the con-man preacher to steal that much from trusting people who make a lot less is just criminal.
Of course, you can call it "class envy" if you want to, freedom of speach and all that shit, but you'd still be wrong, wrong, wrong.
Phrontistes said...
“You are a lot like I used to be; all too willing to believe everything they tell you. I finally woke up when I got documented proof that they were lying to me.”
Hi Phrontistes.
I thought I would take you at your word, and check the ‘documented proof’. I have just checked the Canadian Revenue Agency accounts that you are referring to (as can anyone else that is interested).
The problem is that you have got the figures very wrong, Phrontistes. Perhaps you should look at the accounts again.
The ‘Salaries, wages, benefits, and honoraria’ come to $607,008 which is very similar to your figure.
You are also correct in saying that there is only one part time person, with a salary of $22,260. However you have NOT taken that off the above figure. Taking it off gets the total to $584,748. But that’s only a detail.
Next follows your major error. The average number of ‘permanent, full-time, compensated positions that the charity had in the fiscal period was NINE, not FIVE. (and this was also the same in the previous couple of years accounts too).
Taking the two things into account this means the average salary is NOT $121,397 as you stated, but $64,972, roughly half of what you calculated.
There is another section that asks the salary range of the ‘five highest compensated positions’. All five of the highest paid positions fall in the range of $40,000-$79,999, which is about what you would expect. Maybe that was the paragraph that was confusing you?
And yes, you are right – there is another $155,000 travel expenses, but that needs to be divided between at least 9 people, so we are talking around $17,000, and of course this mainly would be an actual expense.
Looks like my previous comment, that ‘I would be surprised if the average ministerial salary for these ministers was even half the figure you quoted’ was actually a fairly accurate statement.
"$100,000, in today's (U.S.) economy..."
We are discussing the salaries of Canadian ministers in United. A six figure salary, in Canada, is an upper class income bracket.
Purple Hymnal said...
“We are discussing the salaries of Canadian ministers in United. A six figure salary, in Canada, is an upper class income bracket.”
Except the real figure is $65,000 (Canadian). Phrontistes screwed up the maths. (See my post right above yours!)
"Except the real figure is $65,000 (Canadian)."
The figure quoted above is roughly double what is considered a lower-middle-income bracket salary.
Most of the ex-WCG ministry and lay-ministry from my former congregations with whom I had direct contact, when I was in, who were considered "hard-liners", i.e., conservative Armstrongists, have gone over to United.
(The above paragraph is structurally tortured English only so I won't be subtly accused of lying, or bringing false accusations against the Church.)
If United is really so "liberal", you've got to ask yourself WHY and HOW it manages to attract the hard-liners and conservatives, if it's as "progressive" and "liberal" as its critics like to accuse it of being? Have you people never seen a single broadcast of Beyond Today??
Also considering how cheaply church members have learned to live, thanks to their days under the three tithes of Herbie, those Canadian ministers making $65K/year are without a doubt living like KINGS.
Oh, that's right, it's practice for when the Kingdom comes back, and THEY'RE the ones who will rule over us all......
I'm sorry, where's the line-up for the Lake of Fire queue again? I don't want a Kingdom at all as a choice for eternity, but a Kingdom with United's Council of Elders at the top of the heap?!
Pass the perdition and open the pit, please......
Questerul said:
"Except the real figure is $65,000 (Canadian). Phrontistes screwed up the maths. (See my post right above yours!)"
Mea culpa, Quester. Yes I screwed up the math. I went back and did it again.
(607,008-22,260)/9=$67,442
While it may not be as high as I first thought, it is still a substantial amount by Canadian standards, especially when you throw in all the perks. The free car and mileage, free lap-top, all expenses paid vacation, and tax free housing add about $15k, but I will round that down and say they are bringing in the equivalent of about $80k. That is still about double the salary of the average member. When I was there I made $40k and with the exception of the mythter I was one of the two highest paid people in the congregation.
Too soon old, too late smart!
"When I was there I made $40k and with the exception of the mythter I was one of the two highest paid people in the congregation."
I haven't broken $40K in a year, EVER, even after ten years of being in the workforce (not in the same job tho'). Not even when I was working 70-hour weeks.....
But, yeah, I guess I know why the hard-liner conservative ministurds I remember went with United. The pay really IS better.
What will those pansy liberal pastors I remember get, out of WCG/GCI for toeing the party line and bringing in the changes? Free world cruises and European vacations yearly, and a mere promise of a pension at the end of it all, only IF the Bank of Wachovia doesn't go belly-up during this crunch.
Junior's fiddling while Rome burns, guys, get out while you can.
(Not that the pansy liberal pastors I remember weren't cold-hearted bastards too, because they were. But they were only cold-hearted bastards to those they disfellowshipped, or were trying to "bring in line". I dunno if that's better, or worse....)
"Too soon old, too late smart!"
We grew up way too fast
Now there's nothing to believe
When reruns all become our history
A tired song keeps playing on a tired radio.....
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