tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post8648209506891209100..comments2023-11-05T20:19:44.812+13:00Comments on Ambassador Watch: Die Meistersinger von BonnGavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-26707252491157225392009-06-23T00:12:35.367+12:002009-06-23T00:12:35.367+12:00"When I was there I made $40k and with the ex...<em>"When I was there I made $40k and with the exception of the mythter I was one of the two highest paid people in the congregation."</em><br /><br />I haven't broken $40K in a year, EVER, even after ten years of being in the workforce (not in the same job tho'). Not even when I was working 70-hour weeks.....<br /><br />But, yeah, I guess I know why the hard-liner conservative ministurds I remember went with United. The pay really IS better. <br /><br />What will those pansy liberal pastors I remember get, out of WCG/GCI for toeing the party line and bringing in the changes? Free world cruises and European vacations yearly, and a mere promise of a pension at the end of it all, only IF the Bank of Wachovia doesn't go belly-up during this crunch.<br /><br />Junior's fiddling while Rome burns, guys, get out while you can.<br /><br />(Not that the pansy liberal pastors I remember weren't cold-hearted bastards too, because they were. But they were only cold-hearted bastards to those they disfellowshipped, or were trying to "bring in line". I dunno if that's better, or worse....)<br /><br /><em>"Too soon old, too late smart!"</em><br /><em><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1Tz-35WB4" rel="nofollow">We grew up way too fast<br />Now there's nothing to believe<br />When reruns all become our history<br />A tired song keeps playing on a tired radio.....</a></em>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-84096688786727381672009-06-21T07:53:46.748+12:002009-06-21T07:53:46.748+12:00Questerul said:
"Except the real figure is $6...Questerul said:<br />"Except the real figure is $65,000 (Canadian). Phrontistes screwed up the maths. (See my post right above yours!)"<br /><br />Mea culpa, Quester. Yes I screwed up the math. I went back and did it again.<br /><br />(607,008-22,260)/9=$67,442<br /><br />While it may not be as high as I first thought, it is still a substantial amount by Canadian standards, especially when you throw in all the perks. The free car and mileage, free lap-top, all expenses paid vacation, and tax free housing add about $15k, but I will round that down and say they are bringing in the equivalent of about $80k. That is still about double the salary of the average member. When I was there I made $40k and with the exception of the mythter I was one of the two highest paid people in the congregation.<br /><br />Too soon old, too late smart!Phronistesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-38323392246874986852009-06-21T00:39:05.367+12:002009-06-21T00:39:05.367+12:00"Except the real figure is $65,000 (Canadian)..."Except the real figure is $65,000 (Canadian)."<br /><br />The figure quoted above is roughly double what is considered a lower-middle-income bracket salary.<br /><br />Most of the ex-WCG ministry and lay-ministry from my former congregations with whom I had direct contact, when I was in, who were considered "hard-liners", i.e., conservative Armstrongists, have gone over to United. <br /><br />(The above paragraph is structurally tortured English only so I won't be subtly accused of lying, or bringing false accusations against the Church.)<br /><br />If United is really so "liberal", you've got to ask yourself WHY and HOW it manages to attract the hard-liners and conservatives, if it's as "progressive" and "liberal" as its critics like to accuse it of being? Have you people never seen a single broadcast of <a href="http://www.beyondtoday.tv/" rel="nofollow">Beyond Today</a>??<br /><br />Also considering how cheaply church members have learned to live, thanks to their days under the three tithes of Herbie, those Canadian ministers making $65K/year are without a doubt living like KINGS.<br /><br />Oh, that's right, it's practice for when the Kingdom comes back, and THEY'RE the ones who will rule over us all......<br /><br />I'm sorry, where's the line-up for the Lake of Fire queue again? I don't want a Kingdom at all as a choice for eternity, but a Kingdom with United's Council of Elders at the top of the heap?!<br /><br />Pass the perdition and open the pit, please......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-82700512784826174912009-06-20T20:56:48.028+12:002009-06-20T20:56:48.028+12:00Purple Hymnal said...
“We are discussing the sala...Purple Hymnal said...<br /><br />“We are discussing the salaries of Canadian ministers in United. A six figure salary, in Canada, is an upper class income bracket.”<br /><br />Except the real figure is $65,000 (Canadian). Phrontistes screwed up the maths. (See my post right above yours!)Questerukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06659962107808147107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-8059790592604895952009-06-20T15:20:01.800+12:002009-06-20T15:20:01.800+12:00"$100,000, in today's (U.S.) economy...&q..."$100,000, in today's (U.S.) economy..."<br /><br />We are discussing the salaries of Canadian ministers in United. A six figure salary, in Canada, is an upper class income bracket.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-58820050961268635822009-06-20T10:28:25.166+12:002009-06-20T10:28:25.166+12:00Phrontistes said...
“You are a lot like I used to...Phrontistes said...<br /><br />“You are a lot like I used to be; all too willing to believe everything they tell you. I finally woke up when I got documented proof that they were lying to me.”<br /><br />Hi Phrontistes. <br /><br />I thought I would take you at your word, and check the ‘documented proof’. I have just checked the Canadian Revenue Agency accounts that you are referring to (as can anyone else that is interested).<br /><br />The problem is that you have got the figures very wrong, Phrontistes. Perhaps you should look at the accounts again. <br /><br />The ‘Salaries, wages, benefits, and honoraria’ come to $607,008 which is very similar to your figure. <br /><br />You are also correct in saying that there is only one part time person, with a salary of $22,260. However you have NOT taken that off the above figure. Taking it off gets the total to $584,748. But that’s only a detail.<br /><br />Next follows your major error. The average number of ‘permanent, full-time, compensated positions that the charity had in the fiscal period was NINE, not FIVE. (and this was also the same in the previous couple of years accounts too).<br /><br />Taking the two things into account this means the average salary is NOT $121,397 as you stated, but $64,972, roughly half of what you calculated. <br /><br />There is another section that asks the salary range of the ‘five highest compensated positions’. All five of the highest paid positions fall in the range of $40,000-$79,999, which is about what you would expect. Maybe that was the paragraph that was confusing you? <br /><br />And yes, you are right – there is another $155,000 travel expenses, but that needs to be divided between at least 9 people, so we are talking around $17,000, and of course this mainly would be an actual expense. <br /><br />Looks like my previous comment, that ‘I would be surprised if the average ministerial salary for these ministers was even half the figure you quoted’ was actually a fairly accurate statement.Questerukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06659962107808147107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-89636288088240001242009-06-20T09:21:51.044+12:002009-06-20T09:21:51.044+12:00That's just silly. $100,000, in today's (U...<i>That's just silly. $100,000, in today's (U.S.) economy doesn't go very far when you factor in...</i><br /><br />Yeah, when you factor in a big 2 story 6 bedroom house in a gated community, drive a new BMW every year (a Mercedes for the wife). Yeah, I can see where the money might be a little tight.<br /><br />OTOH, someone who is $70,000 less fortunate than your $100,000 and who also is paying 10%,20% and 30% tithes so that someone else, like you, can have $100,000 a year or more to waste on luxury ... well, that sucks.<br /><br />I don't begrudge someone who actually earns that much money but for the con-man preacher to steal that much from trusting people who make a lot less is just criminal.<br /><br />Of course, you can call it "class envy" if you want to, freedom of speach and all that shit, but you'd still be wrong, wrong, wrong.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-47017771677339499102009-06-20T09:08:38.215+12:002009-06-20T09:08:38.215+12:00Quester is skeptical:
"While there may be 5 f...Quester is skeptical:<br />"While there may be 5 full time paid ministers in Canada, there are definitely more than five ministers located there, so I assume the rest are unpaid. They too would travel, and they would be able to claim certain expenses for travelling, mileage for example. Their claims would be part of this ‘pot’."<br /><br />You are a lot like I used to be; all too willing to believe everything they tell you. I finally woke up when I got documented proof that they were lying to me.<br /><br />As to your willingnes to make excuses for them, here are more facts.<br /><br />There is only one part-time employee and he/she gets paid $22,260. I already deducted that from the total salary figure, so that still leaves $121,397 per mythter. As for travel expenses that adds up to another $155,000 which includes the mythters leased vehicles. So you can add a few more thousands to the $121K. Then you can add another couple of grand for the fancy lap-top computers that each one gets. That is covered under yet another category, and is not part of the $121K. Oh, and did I mention that all their housing costs are completely tax free? In most parts of Canada that figure would amount to about 30% of their salary.<br /><br />In conclusion, all the things you speculated about are included in other parts of the report and are not part of the $121,397. Add to that free car and gas(petrol to you), free lap-top, and tax free housing. Not a bad living, especially when you can con someone else into providing it. And all they have to do is come up with a boring sermon once a week.Phrontistesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-89990961843130135532009-06-20T04:09:20.837+12:002009-06-20T04:09:20.837+12:00"The fact that you think a SIX FIGURE SALARY ..."The fact that you think a SIX FIGURE SALARY is "not very much" attests more than all your protestations, that you really ARE a member of the ministry in WCG/GCI."<br /><br />That's just silly. $100,000, in today's (U.S.) economy doesn't go very far when you factor in modest housing, transportation, feeding and clothing a family, and saving for retirement. Maybe in the 80s (which is where so many of us are stuck in) that would seem like a lot. But, that is nearly 30 years ago. <br /><br />Sounds a lot like class envy to me.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-50692818172281780172009-06-20T03:54:01.262+12:002009-06-20T03:54:01.262+12:00This guy is a great example of most of the COG was...This guy is a great example of most of the COG wasteland that exists today. I'm not surprised that he is surprised that the services are nearly identical to UCG! They are ALL FUNDAMENTALLY THE SAME, they were all schooled in Armstrongism! Can I use more CAPITALIZATION or EXCLAMATION POINTS!<br /><br />Get a life, merge together. The elders can go to a bar and work out their differences. Since size matters for them (as far as spiritual zeal and the perception of doing "The Work"), then they need all the help they can get.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-48106034946331612602009-06-20T01:37:00.776+12:002009-06-20T01:37:00.776+12:00I am not sure how some folks speaking at each othe...I am not sure how some folks speaking at each other's services suggests merger, but the comments about a merger leading to three orgs are correct. We have the 1949 merger of Salem and Stanberry (into the General Conference in Denver) as a precedent, but the merged org is very much alive and growing in that case, while the 2 others (consisting of those who did not support the merger [and their disciples]) appear to be dying out.<br /><br />In any event, a UCG and LCG merger would be a step in the right direction, and then if the whole thing could somehow merge with COG7 (a dream of course) maybe we would see some real work being done.Gordon Feilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-19546399908232508202009-06-19T16:37:40.369+12:002009-06-19T16:37:40.369+12:00Sorry PH,
I am not a minister. I am not even or...Sorry PH, <br /> I am not a minister. I am not even ordained. But, I think I do detect an element of class envy in your posts. Apparently though, you have never made $100,000/yr. If you had, you would know that it doesn't go nearly as far as you imagine.larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207263922457941293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-91985184422356332362009-06-19T12:58:51.995+12:002009-06-19T12:58:51.995+12:00"Paul Kieffer is highly regarded by his elder..."Paul Kieffer is highly regarded by his elder-colleagues in UCG" <br /><br />May I ask which colleagues. His "friends on the alternate forum" <br /><br />Does he dare list his friends on the alternate forum or does he cause division. <br /><br />Talks have been going on with LCG for years and this is nother new. <br /><br />Paul should talk to elders in UCG and try to seek reconcilation from within before branching out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-46622255836236676812009-06-19T12:49:20.971+12:002009-06-19T12:49:20.971+12:00"Let's see, $121,000 Canadian total benef..."Let's see, $121,000 Canadian total benefits. That is about $100,000 American. That is not very much.<br /><br />If you are the minister of any decent size American church, you probably make that easily, and more."<br /><br />You would know, Larry, you would know.<br /><br />The fact that you think a SIX FIGURE SALARY is "not very much" attests more than all your protestations, that you really ARE a member of the ministry in WCG/GCI. And likely have been, for a considerable amount of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-67179415926697850742009-06-19T11:37:55.695+12:002009-06-19T11:37:55.695+12:00Teddy's wife thinks it's all about boobs.
...Teddy's wife thinks it's all about boobs.<br /><br />I think she may be right. They are all a bunch of boobs, except those headlights don't shine (running on dead batteries) and most of them aren't very perky.Phronistesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-84330581775133048692009-06-19T10:50:06.426+12:002009-06-19T10:50:06.426+12:00Phrontistes said...
“In 2008 there were 5 full t...Phrontistes said... <br /><br />“In 2008 there were 5 full time paid mythsters in Canada. The total salaries, benefits, and honoraria for last year was $606,986. That works out to an average of $121,397. By Canadian standards that is a very nice paycheque indeed!”<br /><br />Hi Phrontistes. UK law also requires charities to publish basic accounts. (Probably where the Canadian law came from!!!).<br /><br />Your calculation is rather ‘simplistic’, because it’s not just a matter of dividing total salaries, benefits and honoraria by five. That will give a distorted picture. <br /><br />While there may be 5 full time paid ministers in Canada, there are definitely more than five ministers located there, so I assume the rest are unpaid. They too would travel, and they would be able to claim certain expenses for travelling, mileage for example. Their claims would be part of this ‘pot’. <br /><br />Expenses may well also include other ‘unordained’ people travelling on church business.<br /><br />Also how about office staff? Are there any full time or part time employees there? I think there are – if so, then again their salaries would also be in this pay figure. <br /><br />I don’t know the Canadian set-up, but I would be surprised if the average ministerial salary for these 5 ministers was even half the figure you quoted.Questerukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06659962107808147107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-17471158323780587222009-06-19T06:44:59.560+12:002009-06-19T06:44:59.560+12:00It's not easy figuring out why the "Ex-WC...It's not easy figuring out why the "Ex-WCG" things happen as they do.<br /><br />My wife had a theory, and it's all about boobs, so it got me thinking.<br /><br />Now I'm wondering if Doug Winnail's wife has perky boobs.<br /><br />According to my wife, there would be little incentive for Doug Winnail to marry a gal of a different denomotation unless she had perky boobs.Teddynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-28865121615747053892009-06-19T05:08:36.616+12:002009-06-19T05:08:36.616+12:00A Modest Merger Proposal for Die Meistersinger von...A Modest Merger Proposal for Die Meistersinger von Bonn<br /><br />Mein Herr Marquis, ein Mann wie Sie<br /><br />Sollt’ besser das verstehn,<br /><br />Darum rate ich, ja genauer sich<br /><br />Die Leute anzusehen!<br /><br />Die Hand ist doch wohl gar zo fein, hahaha.<br /><br />Dies Füsschen so zierlich und klein, hahaha.<br /><br />Die Sprache, die ich führe<br /><br />Die Taille, die Tournüre,<br /><br />Dergleichen finden Sie<br /><br />Bei einer Zofe nie!<br /><br /><br />FledermausFledermausnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-61944497187535963922009-06-19T02:43:27.139+12:002009-06-19T02:43:27.139+12:00Let's see, $121,000 Canadian total benefits. T...Let's see, $121,000 Canadian total benefits. That is about $100,000 American. That is not very much.<br /><br />If you are the minister of any decent size American church, you probably make that easily, and more.larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207263922457941293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-76502782159670883662009-06-18T13:22:23.074+12:002009-06-18T13:22:23.074+12:00Questeruk says:
"a reality check is in order....Questeruk says:<br />"a reality check is in order."<br /><br />So you don't think their salaries are that great? Well, here is a Canadian reality check. Unlike the US and other countries, Canadian law requires charities to publish, not all, but at least a few of the important details which are generally hidden from most members.<br /><br />In 2008 there were 5 full time paid mythsters in Canada. The total salaries, benefits, and honoraria for last year was $606,986. That works out to an average of $121,397. By Canadian standards that is a very nice paycheque indeed! I can't see how their counterparts in other countries would stand back and let the Canadians be paid way more they they get, so it is a safe bet that they all get something similar, adjusted for the difference in cost of living for different countries of course.<br /><br />Don't believe everything you hear from the pulpit Quester. They are never going to want it to be known that they are making anywhere from double to triple what the average member makes. That would be bad for business!Phrontistesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-77144051021761149222009-06-18T12:47:10.675+12:002009-06-18T12:47:10.675+12:00"What one-man government? We have the counsel..."What one-man government? We have the counsel". He then refers to their counsel of elders."<br /><br />That's what Global Church of God thought. "WHAT one-man government?"<br /><br />Oh, but Spanky IS God's government. God's #1 representative on Planet Earth! Until he soon becomes your God, of course, and you fall down and worship Spanky. <br /><br />CyclopsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-4873218470428964872009-06-18T11:29:10.619+12:002009-06-18T11:29:10.619+12:00Lobe den Herren den Maechtigen Koenig...this is on...Lobe den Herren den Maechtigen Koenig...this is one song that Wagner probably never sang.<br /><br />What was that inscription on the wall that divided the two Germanies, "Wir sind nicht Geteiltet" ( " we are not divided").<br /><br />Similarly,UCG and LCG may be in the initial throes of merger discussions,just like their Protestant brethren from the main British churches.<br /><br />Spanky and dear Gerry<br />Have reason to be merry;<br />A political coalition<br />May some come to fruition.<br /><br />Lobe den Herren,Hallelujah,Brueder.<br /><br /><br />JorgheinzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-78083647808790386802009-06-18T02:49:03.112+12:002009-06-18T02:49:03.112+12:00Dr. Winnail has said in several sermons, which can...Dr. Winnail has said in several sermons, which can be found on their website, that when someone asks about LCG's one man government he says "What one-man government? We have the counsel". He then refers to their counsel of elders. So maybe in his mind LCG is already like UCG and when the time is right, they'll both get together.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-45819139002864486412009-06-18T01:16:16.799+12:002009-06-18T01:16:16.799+12:00"It's the Social Club, Stupid!"
Let..."It's the Social Club, Stupid!"<br /><br />Let's not forget UCG's prime directive; <b>"Thou shalt not break up the Social Club!"</b><br /><br />UCG will always be open to new members no matter what wind of doctrine comes through the door. However, LCG won't allow it because their prime directive is a bit different. It states, <b>Honor thy Meredith!</b> The folks in UCG won't stomach any one person leading their flock.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-45431963612317255852009-06-17T21:42:35.198+12:002009-06-17T21:42:35.198+12:00Douglas Winnail had a divorce and then they were l...Douglas Winnail had a divorce and then they were later reconciled! Really!? No one told me about that before.<br /><br />Will UCG unite with LCG? Not with RCM. But considering that LCG is RCM I think after he dies a merger could very well be possible. The only major issue I see will be governance.<br /><br />LCG's very identity is intimately tied up with RCM. His seniority in the ministry is used to justify LCG's existence. Once he's gone it will be very difficult to maintain legitimacy in that fashion. Embracing UCG could be justified as a way of gaining the legitimacy of the largest Armstrongite group.<br /><br />Of course it entirely depends on what the leaderships of UCG and LCG decide to do. Post-RCM LCG could easily decide to go it alone or merge. There is no way to tell.redfox712https://www.blogger.com/profile/16199948371019677707noreply@blogger.com