Where were you in 1979? If you're too young to give an answer - lucky you! Those of us who were peons in the Empire remember it as the year of the receivership crisis and the ascendancy of Stan Rader, filling the vacuum left by the disgraced GTA. The High and Herbal One was prepared to relocate his entire operation to Arizona, far from the influence of the California Attorney General. The Arizona Daily Star last week cast a brief backward glance to those days in its Tucson Time Capsule feature.When Herbert Armstrong, the patriarch of the Worldwide Church of God, was battling a court-ordered receivership of his church in California, he temporarily moved to Tucson. On Jan. 22, 1979, Armstrong held a meeting here for ministers of the church and vowed never to return to California. Armstrong, right, along with his top aide, Stanley Rader, received a card of support from a church member. Armstrong and Rader were considering moving their base of operations to Tucson, where they both owned property. But, eventually, the case was dropped and they returned to California. Armstrong died in 1986 at age 93.
So there's Herb, and there's Stan... and is the third bloke Rod?
92 comments:
It's RCM. None other. 30 years ago. In another lifetime.
It kind of looks like RM. Is that a big card that has been signed by many people that he is holding?
Yes, it appears that Herbie, Stan and the bad doc Merrydeath are contemplating a strategy to discredit GTA who charged Herb with incest.
"For a number of years Garner Ted Armstrong kept the information to himself. But Dorothy did not. She divulged the same information to many others including David Antion (Garner Ted Armstrong's brother-in-law) and Lois Chapman (who had been married to the late Richard Armstrong, Ted's older brother)."
David Robinson author of "Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web"
Looks like the one on the left might be Hulme? Or would '79 have been too early for his involvement in the upper echelon?
Whatever happened to Herb's Bibles? I think they should be enshrined like a relic of the Buddha. People could come and see them, and read his "inspired scripture" notes.
Honestly, looking back, I find it incredible that this man, HWA, was able to sell his theology for such a great profit. I think the splinter COG groups resemble "reruns" and should require royalties be paid to the WCG.
Lussneheide scribes:
It came to me in the middle of the night...
Yes, that rare inspirational moment where an idea strikes you and wakes you up at 2:23 in the morning!
I now understand how the dynamic of churches of our tradition function and work.
They are just like the TV program GET SMART ....
You have two rival groups battling for influence...
In our tradition we have hierarchial top down governed churches (which I will label as CONTROL). With CONTROL, you are not known by a name, only by a number, ie, Agent 86 or Agent 99, you have a CHIEF, and you have to communicate with "The Chief" by using the "cone of silence" for all top level meetings and decisions. In order to get to the "Chief" you have to go through many, many doors.
The Independent Churches, can be labeled CHAOS, just like the rival group on Get Smart. In spite of being not as hierarchial as CONTROL , it still is subject to its own internal problems, and beauracracy. In fact CHAOS had even gone as far as being a Deleware corporation for tax purposes! CHAOS is often confused, lacks leadership, and inevitably gets frustrated, however they find some degree in direction under the notorious Ziegfried.
Ziegfried also happens to be the Vice President in charge of "Public Relations and Terror" at CHAOS, and although a rival to Maxwell Smart, the two characters share similar traits and often speak fondly of one another, even in the midst of attempting to assassinate each other.
Both CHAOS and CONTROL have bowling teams, to help with organizational morale and even bowl against each other on occassion in winter tournaments.
Yes, all I need to learn about church politics is available just by watching TV LAND or "Nick at Nite"!
It's Meredith, 30 years younger. I wonder if he knew he is a prophet way back then?
I remember the time well. We were required to send our membership dues..er..tithes directly to Dr. Feelgood himself in Tucson to support him while in self-imposed exile.
Yep it's your basic Rodders. No
doubt about it.
How piously precious, the sight of Herb clutching his Bible.
Lussneheide scribes:
They are just like the TV program GET SMART ....
Hah! Excellent!
If that newspaper wanted to give a little capsule of days gone by, AND do a huge public service at the same time, they should reprint another piece they did back then. It was an interview with one of the lawyers involved in the Herbal's divorce case. He revealed that they settled out of court on the condition that Herbert the pervert's relationship with his daughter would not be brought up in court.
Anybody remember that? I would love to see that again.
Baashabob said...
If that newspaper wanted to give a little capsule of days gone by, AND do a huge public service at the same time, they should reprint another piece they did back then. It was an interview with one of the lawyers involved in the Herbal's divorce case. He revealed that they settled out of court on the condition that Herbert the pervert's relationship with his daughter would not be brought up in court.
Anybody remember that? I would love to see that again.
Click here for just that very article....
This is hilarious, Anon 6:38. Dave Pack's pop-up ad appears to the side of and below the incest article, making it appear as if he is sponsoring that page! What a joke on Dave!
BB
Anonymous 7:01 wrote:
"I think the splinter COG groups resemble 'reruns'..."
Excellent analogy, Anon - similar to watching the same old episodes non-stop, like a "Twilight Zone" or "Brady Bunch" marathon!
In essence, this describes the COG's condition today.
I've often likened the various COG splinter groups to elementary school students who are perpetually stuck somewhere in the 3rd or 4th grade, having righteously staked their ground in what they perceive as "the truth once delivered", being exposed to the same bone-dry subject matter over and over and over again repeatedly - yet never really learning or expanding or building upon such information, and never actually DOING anything constructive with it.
Listen to most sermons given in any COG today, and they are little more than "reruns" - just slightly updated versions of ones given decades ago. The vast majority of COG ministers seem to have their stock of standard messages which they dig out from old filing cabinets, blow the dust of off every year or so, and re-give continually with little or no new additional insights added because the ministry in general doesn't seem to be growing or learning very much, so how can the "students" under their care progress?
The October 1993 annual Worldwide Church of God convention in Tucson, brought in roughly 6,000 attendees and poured some $3.6 million into the Tucson economy, Holding its 20th convention, the church began holding the conventions in Tucson in 1973. The $3.6 million figure is based on a nationally used formula that estimates the amount spent by each visitor.
By 1995, the Worldwide Church of God announced it will be reducing by four the number of its concurrent fall conventions held around the country.
WCG made the decision to withdraw from Tucson, which usually hosts approximately 4,000 members, primarily because of declining registration for the site.
Another one of Tucson's largest conventions catered to - bringing in 37,500 people and an estimated $5.2 million - is held at the Tucson Convention Center. The Southwest District of the Jehovah's Witnesses held the first of five three-day conventions in 1991. About 7,500 people are expected at each convention. Delegates are coming from Arizona, New Mexico, western Texas and Mexico and staying in 12 area hotels.
In 1996, new fees at the Tucson Convention Center threatened to drive away some of Tucson's biggest conventions. Hotels asked TCC to be accomodating when dealing with the United Church of God and Jehovah's Witness groups that for years have held summer gatherings at the downtown convention facility.
HWA's alleged sexual misconduct is kind of like UFO testimony. Many people are ready and willing to bear ardent witness but nobody has ever produced verifiable evidence. Legal strategies, confidential discussions, newspaper articles and books by the disgruntled do not constitute evidence. All of this falls in the realm of hearsay.
Robinson claimed that Dorothy Armstrong was willing to talk about it. So where's the testimony?
Like everyone else, there is much to condemn HWA for. But I would like to think I am unhappy about something that actually happened rather than something that has been concocted just to stir the flames a little more.
-- Neo
Just asking as a passer by, why do you all hate this church so much?
I am curious. Can you tell me why?
Had to be rank awful?
"Just asking as a passer by, why do you all hate this church so much?
I am curious. Can you tell me why?"
Because disillusionment is stronger for the sincere seeker than for the religious hobbyist. However, life is choices and we are also probably angry at ourselves for repressing the little voice that probably told us long before we did, to move along.
Margaret,
I don't hate the church or any of the people still in it. But, they taught a lot of toxic error that we try to expose on some of these sites so that others will not have their lives damaged. The phrase "spiritual rape" describes what we've experienced at the hands of a group which referred to itself as "God's True Church", but in reality acted more like Satan.
That's the short version. It would require a considerable amount of time to explain all the horrible details. Let's just say that if you happen to be looking for a new church community in which to participate, you might want to make sure that the name does not appear on the current list of WCG splinter groups.
BB
If you are the passerby you say you are, happily you'll never know the answer to your question. And it isn't even worth the time to pursue an answer unless human nuttiness and greed are your thing.
I write briefly:
This church came out of madness in the mid-1800s that destroyed many lives at that time. The madness underwent a revival in the 1930s that destroyed more lives. That revival collapsed in the early
90's and then was given new life by a later resurgence of energy by ministers who knew in religion there is money to be had. The
1930s church has split many times since like an ugly cancerous growth. It will continue to grow as long as there are gullible fools willing to help it.
I've said enough. I write as a 25-year member.
BTW-Not all here hate the church as you say. Some think it was given by one of the gods.
Neotherm said...
HWA's alleged sexual misconduct is kind of like UFO testimony. Many people are ready and willing to bear ardent witness...
*********************************
Well old Herb used to say,
"Where theres smoke theres fire!"
He may have been right.
All in all, Herb never could block distribution of David Robinson's book HERBERT ARMSTRONG'S TANGLED WEB" from being published.
"It is most remarkable, however, that in attempting to stop distribution of the Robinson book, never once was it asserted that the incest allegation was untrue. Nor did Dorothy Mattson, Herbert W. Armstrong's younger daughter, ever come forth to deny the incest story (and she has repeatedly refused to respond to queries from the AR regarding the matter). In spite of all this, it seems there are still some who prefer to believe that the incest story was fabricated."
Learn more HERE
and HERE
Neotherm, check this out and see if it fits you. No offense, but if this does fit the bill then maybe you need to "examine all things and see if they are true."
Margaret, watch this video and learn about the charalatan Herbert W. Armstrong. It is about 30 minutes, but will stay with you for years!
Source.
" Just asking as a passer by, why do you all hate this church so much?
I am curious. Can you tell me why?
Had to be rank awful?"
Margaret
I am a consistent reader (of this blog)who very rarely comments. The bloggers here consistently voice a variety of positions. So, with all due respect may I ask, to whom are you addressing your question?
Maybe I too much history here and missed your point.
Wess ~~~^``^~~~
Leonardo -
Yes, even when Pack and his pals use the catchphrase, "I've never given a sermon quite like this before..." they still produce cures for insomnia.
What the COGs need is some New Truth brethren! Maybe one of the groups could flee to Petra -- that would start things buzzing again!
Neotherm said...
" HWA's alleged sexual misconduct is kind of like UFO testimony. Many people are ready and willing to bear ardent witness but nobody has ever produced verifiable evidence. Legal strategies, confidential discussions, newspaper articles and books by the disgruntled do not constitute evidence. All of this falls in the realm of hearsay. "
Well, Neo, given the WCG's long history of going to court to silence its critics, it is hard to believe that a newspaper report that publicly declared that the incest occurred, would go unchallenged. Add to that the fact that the statement was a quote from a lawyer, who would know better than anyone not to say anything that could be construed as slander.
Newspaper reports may not be up to your standard of proof, but common sense should tell you that a lawyer (or a newspaper) would never put themselves in that kind of jeopardy unless they could back it up. And I have talked to at least one person (some years ago) who actually got a copy of the court transcript. You could do that too, but it might cost you a few bucks.
Margaret said...
“Just asking as a passer by, why do you all hate this church so much?
I am curious. Can you tell me why?
Had to be rank awful?”
MY COMMENT – Sorry Margaret, but it would take a lifetime to explain in full. In fact, your posting could be an AW topic in and of itself. I will try to boil the feelings down to this explanation. And, most of us do not hate, but we do stand up and speak out about the past abuses and outright lies of this unhealthy church denomination.
The WCG and its founder, Herbert W. Armstrong, presented themselves as God’s ONE and ONLY true representative on this earth. The Church and its splinters throughout its 75 year history preached that “time was short” meaning final worldwide tribulation and calamity and Christ’s return to earth were immanent. Specific dates were set and reset as the church’s end time prophecies would repeatedly fail. Members were told to mortgage their homes and their futures to give to the Church.
A top executive of the WCG, Roderick C. Meredith, kept saying that Christ’s return would be in 3 -5 years, and he has been saying that for 50 years.
In reality, the WCG was a “fire and brimstone” fear religion fraud business, a mind control cult business empire that exploited people under the threat of eternal damnation into becoming financial slaves in order to keep the founder and the top church executives in extravagant lifestyles that few can even imagine. Many of the posters here on AW were young children that grew up in the cult and speak from first hand experiences of the abusive healthy Church.
How did I do in boiling down the feelings for outsiders in this synopsis so outsider’s such as Margaret can understand?
Richard
"How piously precious, the sight of Herb clutching his Bible."
You should have seen Kilough clutching his, on this weekend's Beyond Today. Notably, they no longer bother to quote entire scriptures: They pop it up on the screen, and a give brief sentence stating their interpretation of what the scripture means.
Any wonder the other groups call them "liberals".
As for my not recognizing the proto-Dark Lord, I plead age; all I remember of MerryDeath's visage is mostly how he appears to the world at large now.
One of the incest links I gave has a flaw. Try this $$$$
Richard said, "Many of the posters here on AW were young children that grew up in the cult and speak from first hand experiences of the abusive healthy Church."
CORRECTION - I meant to say abusive UNhealthy Church.
Richard
I very much stand against what HWA was and what he did. I think my past contributions to this blog indicate that clearly.
But this antipathy for Armstrongism doesn't negate reason and should not. I believe that there is not credible evidence that HWA every had an incestuous relationship with his daughter Dorothy. This view can be easily countered by simply producing this evidence. If you want me to believe that UFOs are alien vehicles, show me that. Produce a Gray or a new propulsion technology or something.
I am not against newspaper articles. If a newspaper article just regurgitates John Robinson's polemic, who cares? If it is a genuine interview with Dorothy Armstrong where she makes the verifying statements, that's fine.
I knew John Robinson. I have an informed view of his credibility. You're going to have to cite someting else besides John Robinson.
-- Neo
Neo, Tangled Web was written by David Robinson, not his son John.
Have you read the book?
Margaret, most of the accusations against the Church are just that, accusations. And, most are without merit, and unsubstantiated by evidence. There is alot of malicious opinion posted here, but there are also others who have an opposing view.
The best advice I can give you is this: Don't believe anything you hear, and half of what you see.
Neotherm said...
HWA's alleged sexual misconduct is kind of like UFO testimony.
You're exactly right. There's people who will not believe any evidence that will force them to change their views. The testimony of many people IS evidence. The more testimony, the greater the weight it carries.
Many people are ready and willing to bear ardent witness but nobody has ever produced verifiable evidence.
NOT TRUE! I was first given evidence of it by a man who recorded John Keiz, an Elder in the CG7 with whom HWA confided (while blasting them to us as a dead church mind you). But that was 1991.
There had been the Lochner tapes and the Robinson book before that.
In 1995 Jack Kessler's 1981 resignation became public domain and Jack confirmed it was as he remembered it. More details there outlined for the board and church to see.
Legal strategies, confidential discussions, newspaper articles and books by the disgruntled do not constitute evidence.
You now have an article sourced from the Tucson Star who has no affiliation with the WCG whatsoever. Ain't no gruntle "dis" or otherwise there.
All of this falls in the realm of hearsay.
THERE'S NO HEARSAY ABOUT IT!
IT A BIG STINKING COW PATTY OF EVIDENCE. IT DOESN'T GO AWAY WITH TIME, MORE EVIDENCE EMERGES.
"larry said...
Margaret, most of the accusations against the Church are just that, accusations. And, most are without merit, and unsubstantiated by evidence....
The best advice I can give you is this: Don't believe anything you hear, and half of what you see."
Larry, you just gave me Deja Vu all over again. You sound like me in the denial I was in during those years when I hoped it wasn't so. If I had a tape, I'm sure you just about quoted me exactly as I spoke to others.
mea culpa...
Oh and by the way, Margaret, Larry is a current member of "god's one true church", so take that excoriation of us by him for everything it's worth.
Larry, I will repeat my oft-repeated question to you: As a member of "the new WCG" who (you claim) joined up in the 1990s and/or have been in the church for thirty-plus years (you have claimed both, at various times in your comments), why do you yet "hold fast to the truth once delivered" (Armstrong-worship, British-Israelism, the one true church, etc.), and do your ministers and Pastor General know how strongly you are clinging to "incorrect doctrine"?
And if they do, why are they, in the face of "the mostly harmless church" allowing your GRUMPy apostasy to go on?
Could it be because, for all their protestations to the contrary, the church has not changed a single iota?
Or are you merely muddying the waters and continuing to belittle our experiences just for your own personal entertainment?
Margaret, personally I don't "hate this church" even in the slightest. Early on, I found Herbert Armstrong's radio broadcast profoundly enlightening, partly because I had not encountered Biblical commentary prior to hearing his reassuring voice on the World Tomorrow broadcast.
Many years later, after much more study and experience, I realized that he could no longer advance my understanding satisfactorily. With more knowledge I could no longer squeeze into the Armstrong mold. The patriarchal structure of the church insisted that Herbert Armstrong alone was the final arbiter of truth. The hierarchy therefore did not dare to acknowledge information beyond the explanations already printed in church literature; so I left, with deep sadness and bewilderment. I think these emotions better explain the hurt people express here.
Hate isn't the right word for most of us. As one man told me, having been utterly undone by the train wreck that had emerged from so much early promise, "All my gods have died."
One did not enter the church or college to sift through rumors about vile sexual conduct. We may have encountered some of that along the way, but our motivation was primarily to learn of God and to participate in what we were convinced was God's unique work on earth. Ironically, to continue along that path, many of us had to move from that stepping stone to the next, whatever that may have been -- all the while working to keep a lid on the bitterness that so easily accompanies disillusionment.
I'm deeply grateful to have been a part of the church when everything was new (to me). It was a miraculous and enriching step forward at that time. But if you've read to this point, you already know the rest of the story.
Very well stated. You summed up our experience very accurately.
Annon said:
"Many years later, after much more study and experience, I realized that he could no longer advance my understanding satisfactorily. With more knowledge I could no longer squeeze into the Armstrong mold....all my gods had died."
Excellent posting and insight into the why it was over. I believe you are very right in that most here are not full of hate or anger. It's disillusionment, bewilderment and hurt because if it's one thing the WCG did, it was to draw the very sincere and hopeful. In my experience, it is those that get hurt the most and the hardest when things are not as they seemed to be. People process the experience by talking about it to others of like experience.
The way each talks about is each one's unique contribution to the story.
And it is just a story after all. An unread PT here, an undialed toll free number there and we all would have had a different story.
So, for me, for me, for me, I said, I could not be here had I not first been there. Although what here is can be equally as puzzling at times.
WCG and of course now even more, its splinters are very small boxes and none, no not one, receives new understanding on any topic they think they have the one right way to view it now.
They are all reworks of old mistakes, catch phrases, scenarios and ideas about just what the mythological one true, surely it had to exist right at the beginning, Church of God would have looked liked and believed.
Let's face it. These groups have yet to figure out...
Just Who is God's Apostle, Prophet, Witness or Watcher?
Should or Should Women wear makeup? Is a Hoe What God Wants?
Should Women speak UP in the Church?
Should we vote and Should We Vote for Him and Why Not?
Should You Eat Pork Out on the Sabbath?
Should A Christian Honor Crosses When A Member Guns Down the Church?
Is Your Volkswagen a Trojan Horse From the Beast?
Do Amos and Andy Share the Birthright Promises of Israel?
Larry, Moe, Curly or Shemp...Just Who Should Lead God's Church?
and...
Why 'Soon Now..Very Soon' is More Profitable than 'Oops, He's Here'?
The Churches of God as spun out from WCG and fundamentalists in general are children in their understanding and explanations of how it all is.
They haven't worked hard enough, studied long enough, thought deep enough to be anything more than mere Bible readers and story tellers. For better or worse, lots of the faithful are content to have it be so.
The myths, contradictions and overlays of Jesus are difficult to criticize because mentalities turn them into realities and truths that are unassailable. As a result we end up with two Jesus' The one of history which has been all but eradicated, and the one of theology which dominates and over which churches do battle with each other and those they consider as unbelievers.
The sermons of Mr. Ron Weinland are foolishness. They aren't even inspiring or helpful. There is little or no real life enhancing truth in them. He has not done enough homework or the hard work to understand the Book he claims declares him and his wife the Two Witnesses of Revelation. It's insane.
Others in the COG ministry are just as bad. Tied to a paradigm of someone having to be the Apostle and everyone else coming under his sway, they mislead and misquide because they also have not done the hard work of knowing whereof they speak. If they did, they would not be speaking what they do speak.
Mr. David Pack, works hard to reproduce his glorified Sunday School version of the truth, places himself at the top of the heap of knowing and has a reputation for harsh ministry and manipulation amongst his fellow pastors and members, but yet he thrives. He also has never done the hard work of knowing the Book and the background of which he claims to have expert understanding of. He's also a mere Bible reader.
The present WCG has also never done it's homework deceiving itself into thinking that if they just align themselves with those they think has done theirs, they can survive awhile longer. The Cosmic Christ of their Surprising God Blog and the machinations and spin put on glorifying the messenger and sublimating the message (familiar concept huh?) is appalling. The fact that not even their own ministry comments or adds to the blather speaks volumes about the discontent and disagreement that must reside just beneath the surface in the WCG.
Time would fail to note all the others in the COG movement who simply are not qualified to teach others much of anything profoundly theological. They have not done their homework or the hard work necessary to be anything more than piously convicted, as the phrase that seems to have spoken to me, but merely marginally informed.
This is true of all literalist and Evangelical movements and perspectives.
There is no depth, no soul, no real truth, no growing up, no learning new things, no admission of ignorance and no struggling with truth.
Organizations by their nature cannot grow in anything but numbers. Corporate truths are generally falsehoods perpetuated to hold the system together. And the most evil of them all is the one man show where all understanding and all true interpretation must flow from his lips.
"Know Thyself" IMHO..this is a worthy goal. Maybe the only one. Jesus got to know himself. Why can't we get to know ourselves? Who sold us the idea that to be a genuine human being we have to be possessed by the spirit of another and all the same? Makes no sense, to me. Or never will again at least.
Pretending to know what others tell us they think we should and must know is a formula for personal spiritual disaster. Those sitting in the congregations of the Apostles, Watchers, Witnesses and Prophets are unconscious and near brain dead.
Neo,
The mere fact that Dorothy refused to defend her father against these allegations is proof enough to me.
Purple Hymnal,
I am neither grumpy, nor am I trying to “belittle” your experiences. The posts on this board tend to exaggerate the negatives, minimize the positives, and magnify hearsay way beyond what it deserves. I am merely occasionally pouring a small dose of reality into the mix.
I do not pretend to know about what goes on in the PCG, LCG, or UCG. But, I do know alot about what goes on in the WCG, and I know some of the players. Some people, with whom I am personally acquainted, have been dramatically mischaracterized on this board. And since I know that is true, it leads me to be somewhat skeptical of other things that are said here. Also, I do not post for my own or anyone else’s “entertainment”.
That should answer your questions.
However, you always seem to ask if the Church has “changed”? The answer is ‘yes’. It has grown in understanding and emotionally matured. And some folks who have left are returning after completing their personal walkabouts. And they are welcomed back without question or judgment.
Larry, Larry, Larry. You still haven't cleared up your little discrepancy for us:
When you first appeared here on AW, you claimed you had joined the church in the '90s. More recently, you commented that you were a member for thirty-plus years. When I called you on it, you misdirected, evaded, and generally avoided clearing up this discrepancy.
Will you continue to avoid resolving this discrepancy, or are you going to at least make a token effort to tell the truth?
"And they are welcomed back without question or judgment."
Larry will also be selling lovely bridges, from 8am until noon, at your local flea market next Saturday......
""Know Thyself" IMHO..this is a worthy goal. Maybe the only one. Jesus got to know himself. Why can't we get to know ourselves? Who sold us the idea that to be a genuine human being we have to be possessed by the spirit of another and all the same? Makes no sense, to me. Or never will again at least."
Right on the money, Dennis, although I disagree that TSGB has anything even approaching a "Cosmic Christ" sensibility; they are still entirely too literalist, fundamentalist, and evangelical, to ever attain that kind of street cred.
Dennis said...
The present WCG has also never done it's homework deceiving itself into thinking that if they just align themselves with those they think has done theirs, they can survive awhile longer. The Cosmic Christ of their Surprising God Blog and the machinations and spin put on glorifying the messenger and sublimating the message (familiar concept huh?) is appalling. The fact that not even their own ministry comments or adds to the blather speaks volumes about the discontent and disagreement that must reside just beneath the surface in the WCG.
I heard that WCG-HQ is again asking their ministers to poll their churches on changing the name of the church, from Worldwide Church of God, to Grace Communion International. Has anyone been able to confirm this rumor?
Finally, an intelligent discussion on this blog! There really are two sides to every argument and light is now being shed, at least a little of it is, on the other side, known by some as The Dark Side.
I was a member of the WCG for almost 40 years until I graduated out ... Summa Cum Laude. I was a minister, no less, and achieved what was known back in the day as a high rank. In fact, the highest.
I knew and still know many of the muckety mucks, many of whom I consider friends despite their 'splinter' allegiance. Not all are consumed with hate, fear, guilt or denial. Some are actually pretty nice blokes and blokesses as it happens.
I am no longer affiliated with any Christian group, although I do look upon myself as a believer. Dennis's testimony is the one I most closely identify with and I have absolutely no axe to grind.
Don't believe everything you think.
Lochinvar
Grace Communion International.
How about Dis-Grace Cartoonion Inconsequential?
Wild World Church of God has a nice ring to it as well.
Blogger Neotherm is fibbing me thinks!
Neotherm, the bible says: n the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
~ II Corinthians 13:1 (also see Deut. 19:15)
Is the bible right or are you right? Does your opinion have more force than the word of God?
You seem to avoid a lot of questions. Why is that? Denial?
Anon 09:03 said,
"I heard that WCG-HQ is again asking their ministers to poll their churches on changing the name of the church, from Worldwide Church of God, to Grace Communion International. Has anyone been able to confirm this rumor?"
It is true. I would not call it a rumor. But still, no decision has been made.
PH, I still do not know where you got the idea that I came into the Church in the 90's. Not from me. I have been a member since the mid-70's. I also fail to comprehend your obsessive curiosity about me. I am who I am. I am not special.
As for my previous statement about welcoming back folks who have previously left, that is true. We would even welcome you back.
Lochinvar:
Are you telling us that you are a former evangelist?
And that you now largely identify with the position Den articulates?
That would be truly remarkable.
Gavin...Lochinvar speaks the truth. One of the nicest guys I ever met in WCG . And all he says he was and is.
Hey Mr. "L"
:)
The "David Defense" is often trotted out for display when the failings of GTA or HWA are spoken about. "Great men of God were also men of passion".
The unspoken idea here is "shut up your gob, or prepared to be zapped".
For a group of people so fond of the Old Testament this seems very strange. The Jewish Bible is indeed full of fractured heros, but what makes it remarkable from other cultures stories, is that its brutally honest about its heroes.
Assuming HWA did serve some special mission of God (don't ask me what that was), wouldn't a brutally honest disclaimer about his history be in grand tradition of the OT? I mean if he really is of the magnitude of King David, why not?
Larry,
PH is correct. I remember the post about you joinging in the 90's and the contradicting timeline you gave later.
9 is near, but not too near 7 on a QWERTY keyboard.
"As for my previous statement about welcoming back folks who have previously left, that is true. We would even welcome you back."
Oh yeah. I can picture the scene now. Aggie showing up in jeans and sweats, full KISS makeup, carrying a ham and swiss sandwich in one hand, and a copy of The Pagan Christ in the other.
Still think your "Grace Communion International" would want me back Larry?
Junior can change the corporate name all he likes, he still can't hide from his past. Which reminds me, Larry, tell us: Just what *did* they do with the money from the sale of both campuses?
As for "Larry", I recommend anyone who might feel sympathetic towards him to bear witness to his first visits to AW.
I think your character more than speaks for itself, Larry. Do you want me to keep digging up these morsels of "wisdom" you have bestowed upon here since you decided to drag your backside in here whinging and moaning about how we reject British-Israelism, how we disrespect Armstrong, and on the other hand, you expect us to believe you when you say the church has changed?
What are you smoking, Larry??
Gavin,
To respond to your comment: I am, I do and it is.
Once you break out of the bubble the sky's the limit. Just be sure not to get into another bubble, is all.
Lochinvar
Lochinvar said, "I am no longer affiliated with any Christian group, although I do look upon myself as a believer. Dennis's testimony is the one I most closely identify with and I have absolutely no axe to grind".
MY COMMENT - Lochinvar, there is one noticeable difference between you and Dennis. Dennis has gone public. He is the only former WCG minister that I am aware of who doesn't hide behind a phony pen name on AW.
You stated you were high ranking in the WCG. In fact, you stated the highest rank which means you were an evangelist rank and there weren't that many evangelist rank ministers in the Armstrong pyramid.
Do you have the integrity that Dennis Diehl has? If so, would you identify yourself by your real name.
Richard
Lochinvar, says no way. To do that would reveal me as I am.
NO WAY!!!!!
Sorry Charlie, you and PH must have me confused with someone else. It happens.
I appreciate that you have ingested some of the "morsels of wisdom" that I have given you here. Glad to know I am appreciated.
Hat's off to Dennis for his compassion to gay and lesbians in the COG. I think members would be shocked to know the large number of gays and lesbians that were/are part of the COG's. Before the splits, WCG was filled with them. After the splits many left the church and joined other churches (non COG), others became agnostic, many went with UCG. LCG even has a few and surprisingly there are some working in Edmond for Flurry.
"Larry,
PH is correct. I remember the post about you joinging in the 90's and the contradicting timeline you gave later.
9 is near, but not too near 7 on a QWERTY keyboard."
Thanks Charlie. I spent a half-hour or so looking through the blog's archives to see if I could find the comment, but I couldn't turn it loose, and I've got better things to do with my time. (I say that with only a touch of irony.)
But Deuteronomy says everything Larry needs to know about that, I suppose.....
"The unspoken idea here is "shut up your gob, or prepared to be zapped"."
I spent, or wasted, the better portion of my evening yesterday rereading The Children's Bible Story books. Every story of every Old Testament character that got zapped is in there! And so's the concubine who got chopped up in twelve pieces....... (I had forgotten that one was illustrated.)
"Lochinvar:
Are you telling us that you are a former evangelist?
And that you now largely identify with the position Den articulates?
That would be truly remarkable."
"Gavin,
To respond to your comment: I am, I do and it is.
Once you break out of the bubble the sky's the limit. Just be sure not to get into another bubble, is all.
Lochinvar"
Hey, "L", congratulations on getting out. Here's hoping you've made some peace with your past. Like the rest of us are trying to.
"Do you have the integrity that Dennis Diehl has? If so, would you identify yourself by your real name."
Please ignore Richard's sour grapes, L. Richard, if you want to know who Lochinvar is, might I recommend a fruitful trip to the nearest search engine of your choice?
"Sorry Charlie, you and PH must have me confused with someone else. It happens."
Give me time, Larry. The Internet has a long memory. I'll find that comment of yours yet. Even if you delete(d) it. But I guess "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses" is not a good enough bibleverse for you??
As for being "appreciated", you actually are: You are living, testable proof, that the WCG has not changed its internal beliefs one single iota --- no matter how much Junior and his upper echelon wants everybody to be (ahem) "Surprised" that they have.
Richard said:
"Do you have the integrity that Dennis Diehl has? If so, would you identify yourself by your real name"
Richard, let this one go. Everyone is different. Not everyone needs to process publically. Lochinar is a great personal friend and while we share much in our perspectives and have, what to me is a very good friendship and recognition of kindred spirits, I am myself and he is himself.
He has no need to engage and I less and less. Leave this gentle spirit be himself and move on in his own way. This man I truly care about as a genuine human being who could not be where he is now had he not been where we all had been.
OK PH, if you want to waste your time looking for something that isn't there, go right ahead.
As for your statement about the Church changing, I believe that I addressed that in a recent previous post. The Church has changed (internally as well), it has grown up. I would consider the difference between a 17 year old and a 40 year old to be quite a change.
Somehow, I don't believe this answer will satisfy you though. You seem to think that the only way for a 17 year old to change is to fall on his sword. There are other ways.
"You seem to think that the only way for a 17 year old to change is to fall on his sword."
Speaking of falling on his sword......What did happen to the money from the sale of both campuses, Larry?
Or don't your church's leaders want to answer that one for you?
Or are you, perhaps, too afraid to even ask?
"OK PH, if you want to waste your time looking for something that isn't there, go right ahead."
Damn, Gavin, your robots.txt is blocking the Wayback Machine from checking the archived copies of the comments --- but I believe it was around the beginning of Rotten Ron's first timeline that Larry first wagged his tongue.
So, I guess "the word of two witnesses" (but not THE "Two Witnesses", please no no no) isn't good enough for you, Larry?
You wouldn't happen to be going against the bible, now would you, Larry?
In reading the comments on this site I am struck by the total absence of any concern or discussion about doctrinal issues. Does God exist? Should the Sabbath be observed on the seventh day or should it not? Should the annual Holy Days be observed? Is God a single being, a two-member family, or a trinity? Will the Kingdom of God be the ultimate outcome of human history, whether it happens in ten years, 100 years, or 1,000 years from now? Do these things matter? The answers to these questions and other doctrinal issues are entirely independent of Herbert Armstrong's conduct, or Garner Ted Armstrong's conduct, or any personal grievance, real or perceived, which one may have regarding WCG or any other group. Yet there seems to be no concern for such issues here. What does seem to be reflected on this site is bitterness and hurt feelings and regret at having ever been a part of WCG or other Sabbatarian groups. Things have not always been perfect in WCG and the various groups that came out of itm and hurt feelings DO matter, but constantly reharsing one's grievances does not answer the biggest questions in life.
Larry said:
"As for your statement about the Church changing, I believe that I addressed that in a recent previous post. The Church has changed (internally as well), it has grown up. I would consider the difference between a 17 year old and a 40 year old to be quite a change."
I have to agree with you Larry, the church (small c) has changed and so has Joey. But the problem here is that you and PH are not looking at the same things when you describe change. WCG is vastly different today than it was years ago, and so is Joey. But the real question, the one that you continually skirt around, is were those changes an improvement or just a lateral move to another bad place.
The WCG changed in its attitude towards members and is in a kinder, gentler frame of mind; but only marginally. It is still totally unaccountable, and downright secretive in all its affairs. Members, legally classed as only contributors, have no rights and no access to any information that has not been censored by the administration. Joey has changed from a wild teenager to a cunning manipulator.
If you disagree, all you have to do is point us to the place where we will find out where all the money has gone, and tell us how much Joey gets in salary and expenses.
I am convinced that you won't be able to do so, and will find yet another way to avoid the question.
He is unmistakeable. How is it that he wasn't identified as another right hand man???
Baashabob said,
"If you disagree, all you have to do is point us to the place where we will find out where all the money has gone, and tell us how much Joey gets in salary and expenses."
Baash, I really do not understand why that is any of YOUR business. Can you enlighten me?
Anon 12:50 - doctrinal issues
While doctrinal issues can be and have been discussed on this blog, I don't believe theological discussion is the intended theme.
Could you perhaps convince Bob Thiel to open his COGwriter blog to comments? I think we would make a concerted effort to limit our postings to his blog to doctrinal argument, following the principles and practice of sound scholarly research and Biblical exegis.
Larry, May I enlighten you?
For 40+ years I and my many colleagues contributed tithes, offerings, building funds, 2nd and 3rd tithes to the WCG. They were OUR funds, voluntarily contributed to the church in good faith that they would be used responsibly. We had no intent, then or now, that the campuses, buildings and physical plants that we helped to build and buy with our own money and actual labor should eventually have been inherited by one person -- a very young corporate sole with “new” ideas we had all studied and rejected before coming to AC (See, “Honey, I Shrunk the Church”).
You seem to be saying that once given, IN TRUST, its use is no longer my business? Forgive me if I misjudge, but might that sound a little condescending? What part of the corporate sole’s newfound largesse did you contribute? Let me assure you that we, who built the fortune inherited by today’s WCG corporate sole, would not have contributed so much as one penny, had it proffered the teachings of today’s WCG.
I cannot help but think of the Hammer family who once gave their vast Texas acreage to the WCG. The whole COG thing was a gamble that left its true winnings in the heads and hearts of the benefactors who were able to use the experience profitably. The new gang got the worldly goods. Hopefully, those who left found ways to mend and advance their spiritual quests -- but won’t you please come down off your high horse, whoever you are, Larry? Think about those who gave, sometimes to their own hurt, to create, in trust that has since been severely violated, the vast holdings inherited and now liquidated, by a very different administration indeed.
"WCG is vastly different today than it was years ago, and so is Joey."
Pull the other one, it's got bells on. The only difference in Junior is that he's richer than he was, once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away. (The parallel universe where we used to exist.)
"But the real question, the one that you continually skirt around, is were those changes an improvement or just a lateral move to another bad place."
Or not really much of any change at all, if Larry's defenses of BI and Armstrong-worship are any indication.
"It is still totally unaccountable, and downright secretive in all its affairs. Members, legally classed as only contributors, have no rights and no access to any information that has not been censored by the administration."
My point precisely. The more things change........
"Baash, I really do not understand why that is any of YOUR business. Can you enlighten me?"
My family gave away my university education to the church, Larry: Is it my business, do you think? My parents gave any retirement savings they might have had to the church as 3rd tithe, and they are both entirely too close to retirement age. (I will probably be supporting one parent, and I'm classed as one of the working poor right now myself.) Is it their business, do you think?
"I am convinced that you won't be able to do so, and will find yet another way to avoid the question."
Just as he's avoided every other "difficult" question since he showed his face here.
PH wrote: "My family gave away my university education to the church, Larry: Is it my business, do you think? My parents gave any retirement savings they might have had to the church as 3rd tithe, and they are both entirely too close to retirement age. (I will probably be supporting one parent, and I'm classed as one of the working poor right now myself.) Is it their business, do you think?"
--> They sure did, that and more because they were true believers in the end time and that we were going either flee or die at the hands of those pesky Germans. (EVERYTHING but the barest essentials was put on hold for the family in the 60's and 70's and even part of the 80's)
The only college I received was through the GI Bill and the rest I am still paying off my student loans and I am getting real close to 40.
Looking on the bright side though; I got out of armstrongism alive and my children won't have to go through it.
Larry,
I am a happy member of a major Protestant denomination. The salary and perks of the head of my denomination are openly published on the web. In addition, the church is audited by a major CPA firm and the results of the audit are also on the web. I won't bother to tell you which denomination I am referring to because I am convinced that every reputable denomination of any size publishes this information. It's the Christian thing to do.
What does WCG have to hide?
(Of course I don't expect you to answer this question; as others have noted, you sidestep the hard questions.)
Wow! Whenever financial issues come up about the Church, folks really get riled up. I read all the arguments, and I am not going to get into a pi**ing contest about who has contributed what to whom, and how much. You make it sound like you have been so deprived. Come on. Nothing illegal has been done to you, and there are billions of people out there who would trade places with you in a New York minute.
The fact of the matter is that how much Joe Tkach, Jr. gets paid, is none of your business. And it isn't mine either. Now, if the Hammers have a beef, they are more than welcome to take it up with the Church. If they have done so, it is news to me.
Larry, I'm a little shaken by your candid admission: "Nothing illegal has been done to you...".
Since when has legality defined Christian decency? Philip Wylie wrote of the phenomenon back in 1942. "Any procedure that was technically legal became the businessman's definition of ethics and, thus, the public definition of morality." (Generation of Vipers, 1996 paperback edition, p. 223).
There is another code worth looking into, legal on an even higher plane. It requires loving God above all, and one's neighbor as oneself. Sacred justice is its backbone.
I'm not crying over spilt milk, but facts are facts. When 80% of a church population abandons its treasure and leadership, on principles it holds higher than physical wealth, one asks, "Why?" In this case legal title to the properties went to those who changed the game.
There's no doubt that improvements were long overdue. Why then did so many leave? Considering what those people had originally left to obtain church membership, and the degree to which they studied comparative religions to fortify their convictions, is it not strange that the new leaders couldn't convince the flock that their changes were true improvements?
It might be worth the time and effort to research whether title changed in good faith that the game would be so drastically changed -- or if this might have been a matter of breaking faith honorably, in order to obey God rather than man. It couldn't hurt to examine the facts, could it?
As for the Hammers, I can't speak for them. If it matters to you, you might give them a call. There's Tony Hammer, Jackie Carnes, Molly Antion and Shirley Armstrong. If memory serves, they grew up on that property. Perhaps they have opinions worth considering. I doubt they're in a tizzy over it, but they might have some interesting insights.
Before the posting slips away...
I remember the picture now. It is, of course Rod Meredith and the setting was in Tuscon during the receivership. I believe RCM is showing HWA a blown up copy of his full page ad, like Flurry's of late, to defend himself.
Anonymous Fri Jan 30, 10:22:00 PM NZDT said, "As for the Hammers, I can't speak for them. If it matters to you, you might give them a call. There's Tony Hammer, Jackie Carnes, Molly Antion and Shirley Armstrong. If memory serves, they grew up on that property. Perhaps they have opinions worth considering. I doubt they're in a tizzy over it, but they might have some interesting insights."
MY COMMENT - Your overall post is outstanding. However, I am the one who originally brought up the Hammer family land donation to the clueless Larry several months back. I used it as an example of the obfuscation fraud of the church and as an example of a donation made to the church for one specific purpose and that purpose was to build another Ambassador College.
I made a simple statement at the time to clueless Larry that if WCG had any integrity, Tkach and company would have compensated the Hammer family for the value of the land when Tkach sold the Big Sandy property.
I'm sure the Hammer family isn't in a tizzy about it. I used as an example this one transaction where the land was donated for one specific purpose by one specific family and how it demonstrates a clear lack of honesty and integrity of The Worldwide Church of Fraud!
Did the Hammer family donate the land for any other purpose other than to build and operate an Ambassador College by the WCG? Did the Hammer family donate the land so that 40 years later, another Pastor General could liquidate the college and pocket the money?
Richard
Anon 10:22,
I think it says alot of good things about the 20% who had the courage not to leave. Remember, in 1776, only 20% of the American population supported independence from Great Britain. A disproportionate number of those were the poor living on the frontier, the gutsiest people in the country. (and my ancestors I might add)
If that's not Rodders, I'll eat my hat! (And it's cold out, too!)
I have researched the picture, and found out that pertinent text was "photoshopped" out of it.
My sources? Rocky and Bullwinkle, of course. I called them, and they handed the research project to their friends Sherman and Peabody, who used Peabody's "WABAC machine" to confirm what I thought was the TRUTH.
Although I'm hesitant to say it, I AM the TRUTHIEST commenter on this blog. (Sorry, Larry.)
The TRUTH is, that the picture was actually of Rodders finding a sign hung on the back of HWA's pants.
The "man in the middle" is apparently the evil Snidely Whiplash, who seems guilty of the hanging crime.
Here is the original picture</a
How dare anyone hang such a thing off of Herb's ass!
How about this conundrum? As WCG members, we were taught to give freely and with a good heart. After we gave, what we had given was no longer our concern. That's what most of our attitudes were when we gave tithes, offerings, time, and tangibles.
Yes, there is now a different corporate viewpoint and belief sytem at WCG. Yes, some have stuck to the original models and object to current liquidation and/or usage of assets. But, also, yes, some of the free and cheerful givers of the past are also rethinking the wisdom of their freewill contributions of years gone by, and now want to hold the new administration responsible.
There is no way to resolve all of this. Some would like their (or their parents') tithes and offerings back, so they could get the education they missed, retire, or just plain enjoy life. Others would like their tithes and offerings back so that they could give them to their current "originals" splinter group.
Face it folks, it's gone, they've gotten away with it and left the building. Best thing any of us could do is let it go, forget about them, work with what we have left, and get our revenge by not giving them the power to have crushed us. We've already got them by the balls by putting out enough information that none of them seem to be able to grow in any measurable way. There's lots of satisfaction in that.
How Now Brown Cloud said:"Face it folks, it's gone, they've gotten away with it and left the building. Best thing any of us could do is let it go, forget about them, work with what we have left, and get our revenge by not giving them the power to have crushed us. We've already got them by the balls by putting out enough information that none of them seem to be able to grow in any measurable way. There's lots of satisfaction in that."
I agree. Looking on the bright side of things, while I was in the WCG, the lack of marketable skills from a proper education and the doctrinal restrictions on where and when I could work kept my income level while I was in rather meager.
I left the WCG, used the GI Bill and some federal student loans to earn some tech certificates and now do fairly well in the software industry...and they don't get a f'ing dime.
Now if I could just shake the rest of the mental baggage and rescue my parents...
Laughter is the best medicine right?? I'll give Dennis another call, he has this way of finding the humor in it all.
Larry: "Nothing illegal has been done to you."
Now there is a comment from an insider. And a remarkable one at that.
Religious leaders know that the Constitution guarantees neither taste nor truth in matters of Religion. Americans have a right to make fools of themselves as so may of us did and many are still doing.
At the same time it is interesting that so may here take postings as if they are actually from the people they say they are.
That is demonstrating the same level of gullibility we manifested while in Armstrongism. Jeez, didn't we learn anything?
Now I don't take "Larry" as who he pretends to be. But the quote I cited is a true statement. None of us have a legal case in spite of how much complaining we do.
Now if we speak of ethics, then we have grounds to stand on. But that is not a legal issue.
larry said... “The fact of the matter is that how much Joe Tkach, Jr. gets paid, is none of your business. And it isn't mine either.”
The fact of the matter is Larry, that if I am investing in a business, I expect the management to be accountable.
I expect regular accounts, so I can see how this business that I have invested in to performing, and I expect to know how much the directors and managers of the business are being paid. The directors are often in a position to set their own pay, and so it is not at all unreasonable to have this as public knowledge for those with an interest in the business.
The above applies to a business – it should apply even more to a church where the person donating to it is voluntary giving their personal substance to a cause that they believe in. Openness from those that are managing the church is even more essential than in a purely business situation.
Leaders of a church have a responsibility not only to be honest and above suspicion, but to be SEEN to be honest and above suspicion.
I am no longer a member of WCG, so in theory it is no longer my concern (although when it was my concern financial details were not being produced). However, Larry, I suggest that it IS your business – your should have access to the financial details of the church that you support.
If everything is fine and dandy, why would any church have a problem with that?
I said before,
"Nothing illegal has been done to you, and there are billions of people out there who would trade places with you in a New York minute."
All of you should be focusing on the second part of that statement.
Count your blessings every day. I do.
Larry said, "All of you should be focusing on the second part of that statement.Count your blessings every day. I do."
MY COMMENT - Finally Larry, there is something we can both agree on. I do the same. I am thankful, hopeful and grateful.
Richard
Richard, you should be in agreement with me on everything. I am a very agreeable person.
Thank you for all the explanations. I have read pieces referenced and looked around at various things about the church.
The teachings on some things seem ok others not so much really.
I tend to believe the incest charges because no one rallied to speak up in his defense. I even found a place where a minister who seems to head one of these off shoots is interviewed by a man and basically just can't deny the charges. That is fairly damning I think.
Over all I can see why people would feel cheated.
It is hard to see God using a man who was molesting his own child for that long in the way this church portrays him as being used.
Thanks for answering me.
...."there are billions of people out there who would trade places with you in a New York minute...."
Now that we've escaped the clutches of the church? You're absolutely right Larry. Although I do believe that's not quite what you intended.
Larry said, "Richard, you should be in agreement with me on everything. I am a very agreeable person."
MY COMMENT - All right Larry. Let's not push it or get mushy. Peace to you on this Sabbath day. Oh, which day do you keep now since you remained in the WCG - not that it really matters?
Richard
Larry, you said, "I think it says alot of good things about the 20% who had the courage not to leave."
Courage not to leave? Why was it courageous to stay?
How about those Levites and many others, especially from Ephraim, Menashe and Simeon, who packed up and left their homes and land in the apostate northern kingdom of Israel to go south, to Judah? Were they they cowards? Were those who stayed the courageous and praiseworthy? Does the analogy fit, even a little?
I'm sure you have your reasons, and that they make sense to you. Maybe a good job, family ties?
To each his own...
larry said:
"Nothing illegal has been done to you and there are billions of people who would trade places with you in a New York minute."
Later:
"All of you should be focusing on the second part of that statement."
Before this thread dies I would like some clarity on the second part of that statement.
What do you plainly mean?
Thanks.
What Larry plainly means is, we should fall on our knees and thank his god, that we were under the oppressive, repressive, evil thumb of his god, for all of our formative years.
Any wonder Junior wants to change the name, if the members of the inside are still like Larry.
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