Wednesday 29 October 2008

The True Dave Pack

David C. Pack has launched a new publication called "The True Jesus Christ." The RCG website gushes: A single book can change people forever. The True Jesus Christ – Unknown to Christianity does this! There has never been a book like it!

Never? Well actually Dave, there has; The Real Jesus by Garner Ted Armstrong. How could you forget, especially as almost all your stuff is rewritten from WCG originals to circumvent copyright infringements? Please tell me you're not in the early stages of Alzheimer's!

Big Dave has also picked up another trophy-elder, this time a Peruvian UCG minister: Wilfredo Sáenz Asencios.
Mr. Sáenz was a member of the very first Peruvian congregation established in the Worldwide Church of God. After his ordination in 1978, he raised up and served a number of local churches in Peru and Bolivia, working full-time in the ministry from that point. He left the Worldwide Church of God for the United Church of God when it formed in 1995, continuing to oversee congregations in his native country.
Determined to hold fast to the full truth, Mr. Sáenz will care for members of The Restored Church of God in Peru and a number of other countries, alongside RCG’s other minister serving the Spanish-speaking world.

Exactly how many RCG members there are in Peru - other than the few that jumped ship with Sáenz - is unknown.

RCG may not have a TV or radio program, but the lads in Wadsworth do know how to put audio and video online, and are about to make a big, expensive leap forward: The World to Come will soon transition from audio to video! From a newly built state-of-the-art television studio, David C. Pack will continue to address the pressing issues of today, making plain the truths of the Bible and tying their significance to world events, trends, conditions—and to your life!

A state of the art TV studio for a glorified podcast? Hey, why not?


Anonymous said...

Sadly, and of course, Dave's "Real Jesus" is the cobbled together one from the contradictory Gospel accounts, the Apostle Paul's, "honest, I saw and heard him in my head," Jesus and the psychopath Jesus of Revelation.

Somehow this Jesus is one and the same person, being, imaginary friend.

No COG minister ever asked, in the midst of the splendor or Rome, the intellectual setting of Greece and the theological and divisive environment of Judaism, did "the real Jesus" ever write anything himself in his entire life? We know he could draw circles, but that's about it. Writing from Heaven doesn't count. Too easily contrived by men.

The Real Jesus will be about as accurate as "The Real Osiris", "The Real Dionysius," "The Real Mithras," or the "Real Adonis."

Let's see. Dave will reveal...

Jesus owned his own home.

Paid Taxes

Owned a sword and a nifty spear

Was partners in a boat company on Galilee

Had many female supporters, but
loved none of them.

Had many male supporters, but loved none of them.

Owned a supporter

Was a Jew so RCG is right on with it's practices.

Didn't eat Pork, but did ruin a guys living driving a herd of demon possessed porkers down into the sea. We won't get into the fact the town listed was 30 miles from Galilee. Tired pigs.

Was a swell guy

Was not adverse to having expensive gifts sent his way or used on him because "the poor" are always around.

Ascended into heaven from various places at various times depending on which account one reads.

Is now sitting on the right hand of God, which explains why God can't get up and do something for us all down here.

The COG's would do well to drop words such as "Plain", "Real", "Revealed" and "True" from their booklet vocab. The "Real Jesus" will simply be a prooftexing romp through the Bible, as if any of the writers ever met him or spent any time with him. Throw in some non OT prophecies and it will be spectacular, stupendous..nothing quite like anything Dave has ever written or understood until this very time.

Anonymous said...

What I want to know is, did Pack borrow the adjective-noun combination, "pusillanimous pansy"? If not, then what piece of alliteration could he write that is half as good as that?

Anonymous said...

From what I have heard, the Church in Peru was there for many generations before ever having any contact with the Worldwide Church of God. They kept the same holydays and traditions of the Church. They were truly part of God's church from years back. I heard that the break up of the WCG dessimated them.

Anonymous said...

Tom M,

I think the term "pusillanimous pansy" was coined by former U.S. Vice President Spiro T. Agnew, who was the first vp under Richard Nixon. (Agnew resigned after being involved in payoffs back in his home state.) Agnew was Nixon's attack dog. He or his speech writers also came up with "nattering nabobs of negativity."

Anonymous said...

Agnew also came up with "effete snob."

Anonymous said...

Gluteus Capitus,

HEY! I copied and pasted your name and capitals magically appeared- it's a miracle!

Anyways, I wanted to say:
Stop making sense, or you're going to get Om-Tay Ahon-May ad-may.
Not to mention some other olks-fay.


Anonymous said...

Gavin said:....."Never? Well actually Dave, there has; The Real Jesus by Garner Ted Armstrong. How could you forget, especially as almost all your stuff is rewritten from WCG originals to circumvent copyright infringements?

MY COMMENT - I still have a copy of The Real Jesus by GTA on my bookshelf. Funny, on the front cover of the book right above the title, The Real Jesus, are all these various photo images of Garner Ted Armstrong preaching. Ten photo shots of GTA on the front and side of the book, and one large portrait on the back.

In retrospect, isn't it rather strange, perhaps even sublimal, to have a book purporting to be "the magnetic minister's new vision of the life of Christ" containing 11 photo images of the author on the cover of the book?

"A book that could change your life, if you let him...."

To quote GTA from 1968 Jekyll Island FOT in an ironic twist for both Dave Pack and himself, "If it is true that your idol is you, then whom shall God destroy?"


        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

Tom M (not Mahon) said...

What I want to know is, did Pack borrow the adjective-noun combination, "pusillanimous pansy"?

I'd like to know how that's translated into Peruvian spanish!

        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

You know in Peru, they eat Guinea pigs for Thanksgiving!

Anonymous said...

So will Mr. Pack go all the way, and declare his book the most important one since the Bible?

If not, where does it rank behind Mystery of the Ages? Second? Third?

Anonymous said...

Two comments:

First, the COG's are in such decline that the past several years now they have been gleefully excited when very small groups - typically in third-world areas - finally "see the light" and want to become part of their larger group. I know Hulme's group made a big deal of this when several folks from Africa wanted to become part of Hulme's COG-AIA around 2002 or so. I've even heard ministers speculate that "It appears God is now focusing on reaching out more to the Gentile nations" in order to explain the obvious decline in greater COG-land located within what they see as the "Israelitish nations" of the western democracies.

And second, another story from AC: Back around 1978 or 1979 I remember Richard Ames once spending an entire class going through GTA's book "The Real Jesus" painstakingly pointing out what he saw as "the many historical and doctrinal errors" contained in it. So GTA's pathetic little volume (and his later sequel, "Peter's Story" I think it was called) never gained a whole lot of traction in the world of the old WCG.

Corky said...

Pffft. Hocus Pocus, try to focus.

The "real" Jesus of the NT fame, never existed, but you just wait until the "real" Messiah of the Jews (of OT fame) finally shows up (one of these days). Then "christians" will catch hell.

Better pay attention to that malignant monster OT God - he's big on genocide - especially to those who object to Israel stealing their land.

The "real Jesus" is his son, you know - like father, like son. So, from that you can tell that the Jesus of NT fame is a fake.

Anonymous said...

Ted Armstrong's Real Jesus was Sunday School stuff. For a man that was supposed to be so intelligent, he got stuck in the 1968 and never grew past it. He cruised on much out of date info, if it was ever "in date," for the rest of his life. A Theory for the Birds and a Whale of a Tale were the high water mark for his understanding, or lack of, of evolution. Clever titles...lousy information.

Anonymous said...

Implicit in Pack's "true historical facts about Jesus" is that there is a mainstream christian conspiracy that misrepresents the "historical" person. Yet Pack draws from the weak data as the alledged conspiracists: the christian holy book !


Good scholarship Questions everything

Anonymous said...

With regard to "too easily contrived," I humbly submit that tautology remains by no means exclusive to COGs. If we deploy some of the propositions and ad homineum attacks mainfested on, then we may also safely arrive at conclusions that support:

-The holocaust never occurred
-Neil Armstrong never walked on the moon
-Churchill was the worst political leader in the history of humanity
-FOX News represents an unbiased voice of reason

On a related note, why do not we ever read of the works of Ben Witherington in these discussions?
( While obviously an evangelical, Witherington's scholarship chronicles fairly the 1st century conflict over the Hebrew law in early God-fearer/Christian communities and even occasionally quotes none other than Lester Grabbe, a former Plain Truth senior writer-turned OT scholar (in the growing tradition of James Tabor).

Anonymous said...

The RCG website said --

Mr. Sáenz will care for members ... alongside RCG’s other minister serving the Spanish-speaking world.

How about a name for the "other minister"? Is he insignificant? Or perhaps the same minister who looks after the German/Dutch/French/etc speaking world?

Anonymous said...

The World to Come....I think the Eternal Church of God uses that name. Wonder what will happen with this?

Richard said...

Maybe that "other minister" is lurking in another denomination right now -- waiting for just the right moment to make a break for it.

Or maybe he has to be anonymous, to escape persecution. Those pro-Chavez groups in Venezuela can be pretty intimidating, you know.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:23 said --

The World to Come....

Dave said when he sees Herb (in the World to Come) he'll tell him the title "The World Tomorrow" wasn't correct. He was assuming the name of the "broadcast" had to be the correct English translation of some biblical text. HWA's choice has more marketing appeal.

Anonymous said...

Maybe Dave's state of the Ark IT team created a virtual ministry.

Anonymous said...

In speaking about the financial crisis, Dave said that when he was at AC he visited "Millionaires Leap" where victims of the '29 crash chose to end their financial worries rather dramatically.

Is that so, or another of Dave's whoppers? Perhaps he was thinking of Millionaires Row?

Anonymous said...

I think I have posted this information once before on AW, but with Gavin’s permission I will re-post this information again.

The Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C. has a floor exhibit on the Great Depression era of the 1930s. In one of the display exhibits is a copy of Time magazine from 1939. On the cover of this particular edition of Time magazine in big letters reads – World of Tomorrow.

We now know HWA plagiarized almost word for word large portions of at least two of his early booklets that I am aware of. My personal speculation is that HWA changed the title of his Radio Church of God program to “World of Tomorrow” and later shorten to “The World Tomorrow” after seeing the cover of this 1939 edition of Time magazine.

There is some basis for my speculation. Herbert Armstrong was an advertising man, and I am sure he reviewed major magazines of his era with a personal interest to see who was advertising, and then also to gleam print ideas for his then fledgling Plain Truth magazine.

This would not be the first time a major print magazine influenced the WCG religion. National Geographic magazine once ran a story on Petra in the late 1940s/early 1950s. Loma Armstrong saw it, and made a comment to someone that Petra would be a great place for a place of safety. That is how the Petra place of safety belief in the WCG got started.

One thing I should mention to temper our views on the WCG experience:

People like Roderick C. Meredith, Raymond McNair, Herman Hoeh and others were all very young impressionable men with little real life experience when they came under Armstrong’s influence. Herbert Armstrong was 30+ years their senior when these and other young men became pioneers of the WCG. So, if Loma Armstrong made an offhand comment that Petra would be great place for a place of safety after reading a National Geographic article, these young men would take a comment like that from the Armstrong’s as quite literal and the comment would soon take on a life of its own - spin first into church prophetic speculation, and then repeated long enough through the church speculation grapevine so that it soon became a church doctrine.


Anonymous said...

Lest we give Dave Pack a big head with all of this attention, let's not forget Billy Graham's birthday! This is his 90th birthday, and TBN has put together an incredible gala celebrating Dr. Graham's live and work.

When I was a young child, my parents began watching both HWA and Billy Graham on TV. Too bad they couldn't tell the difference between hamburger helper and filet mignon. Billy Graham has led more people to Jesus Christ than any other evangelist in the entire history of the world, and with more genuine character and integrity than the Armstrongs could ever even begin to fake!

Happy Birthday, Dr. Graham!


Anonymous said...

I wonder whether Mr. Sáenz will complete his year at RCG. Most people who go there hardly make it. And if they do, but "have no fruits" at the end of that one year, according to Mr. Pack, they're out the door.

Good luck Mr. Sáenz, hope you bring in some converts! Enjoy the ride.

P.S. As to the other minister, could this be Mr. Victor Cabrera, a recently ordained elder at RCG?

Anonymous said...

And if they do, but "have no fruits" at the end of that one year, according to Mr. Pack, they're out the door.


From the current WCG to the PCG to the LCG to the UCG to the little rinky dink COGs, many of the BAD leaders on the COG scene today should be "out the door" for all the ROTTEN fruits they have produced! I am sure that many of them would be terrified if they were actually required to produce good fruit.

While I cannot recommend that anyone rush to send in their house or retirement plan to David Pack and his Restored Church, I can recommend his video in which he called the other splinter leaders "evil men and seducers."

The evil that is being done today in the so-called COGs really is being done by people who pretend to have survived the WCG apostasy and who pass themselves off as standing up for the truth.

From lying false prophets like Gerald Flurry and his PCG full of deranged tyrants, to the lying false politicians in the UCG that cater to the vulgar mob and pervert justice for a paycheck, David Pack is absolutely correct about the various splinter leaders being "evil men and seducers."

In the past, in the old WCG, after a certain sermon, I remember once wondering greatly why what I had assumed were good church people would, in the coming "Laodicean era," have to go into a "Great Tribulation" and get kicked in the head by neo-nazi skinheads to smarten them up. Now, having seen what the leaders, as well as many members, of these groups are really like, suffice it to say that I wonder no more.

Richard said...

Back on the original topic -- I went searching for something in GTA's old book this weekend, and never found a mention of it.

Jesus was seen at the winter "Feast of the Dedication" in Jerusalem in John 10.

Does this mean Christ kept Hanukkah?

GTA never mentions it. UCG's booklet on Jesus refers to the passage as "another occasion" --but never says what the occasion was, why Jesus was there, and whether we should be doing the same.

Anonymous said...

"This is his 90th birthday, and TBN has put together an incredible gala celebrating Dr. Graham's live and work."

90 years of fleecing a different set of sheeple. Way to go for Billy-boy.

Charles Templeton almost "saved" Graham from the lucrative evangelism business when he went off to study to real theology (during which Templeton became agnostic), a near-miss I am certain the well-heeled Graham is glad he barely escaped, these days.

Anonymous said...

Does this mean Christ kept Hanukkah?

In a short PT article (probably in Letters) Hanukkah was dismissed as a National celebration, and was equated to keeping July 4th.

Anonymous said...

Anonimo. First Perú. Now it's up to Chile ... What is happening in the Latin American?.
It is known that Chile with the world's largest congregation of UCG is the two men vying Ambassador: Mr. Langarica and Mr. Seiglie. Seiglie lives in USA but the third part of the congregation supported him in Chile and upset the current minister.
The current Mr. Langarica suspended at 2 brothers-in-law of Seiglie (1 is a deacon) and they appealed to the council in the USA and want to humiliate Langarica.
Reserve locations being a strong round.
Quijano in Peru silent.

Anonymous said...

I wish I could get paid to stand before crowds and drone on about imaginary beings and their role in our lives. What a score!

Paul Ray

Anonymous said...

"In a short PT article (probably in Letters) Hanukkah was dismissed as a National celebration, and was equated to keeping July 4th."

I thought that was Purim? No?

Anonymous said...

-- While I cannot recommend that anyone rush to send in their house or retirement plan to David Pack and his Restored Church, I can recommend his video in which he called the other splinter leaders "evil men and seducers." --

One of Pack's more memorable sermons in Global COG had to do with wolves. He said that one of the most important mistakes members make with wolves is warning them: "Now, Mr. Wolf, I'm onto you! If you don't shape up, I'm going to report you to HQ!"

He observed that this way, people feel they're being fair and giving the wolf a chance to change his ways. But in reality, all it does is give the wolf enough time to arrange his chesspieces to be ready when HQ comes a-calling. A wolf has no compunctions about pulling the rug out from under you -- and you'd better not let him know what you're planning.

Very interesting moment in that sermon. Like the video you recommend, he was actually talking about himself. If you don't realize Dave Pack is an evil man and a seducer in his own right, well...

...then I guess that's proof he's a semi-competent seducer.

But only semi-competent. Dave really doesn't seem to be able to keep individual followers seduced for years and years. Most of them discover before long that he is one of those "deranged tyrants" who "pervert justice".


(Judging by your comments, though, I'd say you deserve your seduction. I mean, really -- you approve of neo-nazis kicking people in the head?? You must be one of those "good church people" yourself.)

Anonymous said...

PH - Hanukkah/Purim -

Remember this was in the PT... consider the level of scholarship.

The article also said Jews were complaining that Hanukkah was becoming too much like Christmas. And that was years before South Park.

Anonymous said...

"PH - Hanukkah/Purim -

Remember this was in the PT... consider the level of scholarship."

Right, but I do recall that some similar point was made about the Jewish festival of Purim --- that it was a national festival, and had nothing to do with "gawd's holy days", which was why the church didn't keep it. Might have been in the Good News.

Am I mis-remembering, or conflating this with the anti-Hannukah injunctions? I remember church members saying it was just as pagan to celebrate Hannukah, because it was a Jewish substitutionary holiday for Christmas.

Another of the "The Jews got it wrong." anti-Semitic perspectives the church "blessed" us with............. :-(

Anonymous said...

Libro 66 said...

(I mean, really -- you approve of neo-nazis kicking people in the head?? You must be one of those "good church people" yourself.)

Libro 00, the "Evil Mouse and Seducer Wannabe,"

Yes! Yes I am good! Very good!!! Relatively speaking. But, sadly, many others are not. Now, 00, try using your own head for once BEFORE God has to send some neo-nazi to kick-start it for you.

The truth is that wicked, lying thieves like Gerald Flurry and all the other lying frauds and impostors should be kicked in the BUTT too, just in case their brains are actually stuck up there rather than in their heads.

Also, don't try to fool people with your fake concern.

Anonymous said...

After watching Dave's attempt to replicate the old WCG programs, I remember Lloyd Bertsen's appraisal of Dan Quayle.

Dave, you're no Ted Armstrong.

Anonymous said...

I read Dave's introduction to his Jesus book then read Garner Ted's; Moses smell the roses, it's like an American idol singer trying to copy Elvis Presley