Stan over at the AR blog has some further info on David Barrett and his survey. While it's amusing to fill out one of the many informal polls on sites like AW, the Barrett questionnaire gives members and ex-members a chance to participate in a very real piece of research. If you haven't already done so, toddle across to www.quest.thenewbelievers.com and give it a go. The password seems to have posed problems for some, but most of us shouldn't have too many hassles: David asks you to type in the name of the city where HWA's radio ministry began on KORE (and where he famously hung out in the public library), followed by the year Radio Church of God first hit the airwaves... e.g pasadena1972 (which is of course wrong on both counts, but you get the idea.)
If you haven't checked out Bill's links on Ekklesia lately, there are some new entries. Bill has also dug up a nice little variation on WCG hymns... including Everybody Wants To Be a Pastor General and Onward German Soldiers (a sense humor is definitely required!)
26 comments:
Vorwaerts Deutsche Soldaten(Onward German Soldiers).
And,of course,we cannot forget what the German infantryman had on his belt buckle,"Gott Mitt Uns".
Indeed,Assyria was part of our philosophy.And of course,we had an in-house expert,Dr Herman Höh.
Funny how the Oktober Fest more or less coincides with the FOT some years.Give me a Jawohl of German beer anytime.There is the German Lied,"Beer from Bavaria Is Good For Malaria".May many households be plagued with the Anopheles mosquito.
And,of course,these turbulent economic times play right into the hands of Herr Gerald Flurry:...... Steuber,Bavaria and all.
Auf Wiedersehen
Jorgheinz
OCTOBER 2008 NEWS FROM BERLIN: Jörg Haider, Austrian far-rightist, killed in car crash at age 58.
Poor little Jorgie. His untimely death was obviously the fault of Gerald Flurry. Gerald's shameless false guessing about Jorgie's prophesied future is, no doubt, what drove Jorgie to drink too much and drive too fast to try to "get away from it all."
I feel like I must, reluctantly, give credit where credit is due. So, thank you, Gerald, for killing off the potential "Beast" of the United States of Europe.
Were it not for Gerald's always wrong guesses, Jorgie would have lived to a ripe (meaning stinking) old age.
If Gerald keeps on guessing about who the "Beast" will be, all the popular candidates for that position will meet some tragic fate--just to keep Gerald from ever being right about anything that he ever predicted.
If Gerald will just keep on guessing wildly and blindly like the lying false prophet that he is, he can bring to ruin all the potential "Beasts" before they can grow up and do any harm.
Clearly, Flurry, like Dankenbring, has special reverse powers that should be used to save us.
Well, I don't know about you, but that about sums up my WCG experience.
You know, I'm voting for Barack Obama for President of the United States. This is the first time I've actually been voting for the Democratic candidate, not just voting against his Republican opponent, and I have to say that after reading William Dankenbring's nonsense, I'm even more convinced that I'm on the right track. Does WD even read or watch the news?
Anonymous said...
You know, I'm voting for Barack Obama for President of the United States.
Wow! Voting for Obama. You must be attempting to hasten the arrival of the Apocalypse.
If my vote could really hasten Jesus' return, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I tend to doubt that Jesus would want us voting for a pro-abortion candidate tho.
Not to change subjects, but the following news item is reminiscent of Herbert W. Armstrong parting ways with son Garner Ted Armstrong. Of course, no speculation of sexual or financial scandal in this news report. There is no claim by father that the son is over worked and is experiencing emotional problems. And, no claims that the son is "in the bonds of Satan".
I have to wonder how much of our WCG experience such as child rearing, attitudes toward sex, sermons against "rebellion" all boiled down to a generational family struggle between the father and son Armstrong.
Still, the following news item should remind us all that there is nothing new under the sun.
Richard
Crystal Cathedral TV preacher removed by father
FILE *** Robert A. Schuller, left, poses for a photo with his father, Robert...
Sun Oct 26, 4:00 AM EDT
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GARDEN GROVE, Calif. — Crystal Cathedral founder Rev. Robert H. Schuller has removed his son as preacher on the church's weekly "Hour of Power" syndicated TV broadcast.
Schuller said in a statement read to some 450 congregants Saturday by church president Jim Coleman that he and his son, Robert A. Schuller, "have different ideas as to the direction and the vision for this ministry."
"For this lack of shared vision and the jeopardy in which this is placing this entire ministry, it has become necessary for Robert and me to part ways," Schuller said.
Robert A. Schuller will remain as senior pastor of the Crystal Cathedral, though it was unknown whether he will continue to preach, a church spokesman told the Los Angeles Times.
The elder Schuller said in the statement that he was bringing in guest pastors to preach during the show.
Church officials did not return messages left Saturday seeking comment from Robert A. Schuller and details about what prompted the schism between him and his father.
Robert H. Schuller had turned over the church ministries and the "Hour of Power" TV program to his son during an emotional service at the Crystal Cathedral in January 2006.
___
Information from: Los Angeles Times, http://www.latimes.com
Miguel de la Rodente said...
"I tend to doubt that Jesus would want us voting for a pro-abortion candidate tho."
Don't doubt...
I can't speak for Jesus as it seems not have come up in his lifetime. However, His Father, God is not pro life either from what I read in the OT. Perhaps we could throw in the Revelation where Jesus aborts large chunks of humanity to attrack the love of God.
However, God the Father is another matter.
Abortion:
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life.
How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
God can be rude the baby shortly after it arrives as well.
Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
And I believe this audience is OT Bible savy enough to understand that children were expendable and all humans who get in the way.
Abortion may seem wrong to "God" in the view of some. But the evidence is just not there in the actual text for that conclusion.
gluteus captitus said...
Miguel de la Rodente said...
I tend to doubt that....
Don't doubt...
Abortion may seem wrong to "God" in the view of some. But the evidence is just not there in the actual text for that conclusion.
So, you guys are saying that abortion is a wonderful blessing from God, and that the people who are appalled by it today are simply a bunch of goodie two shoes who are trying to be better than God?
You're saying Barack is more in keeping with the original ideals of Yahweh, and his pro choice status is actually one of his strong positive points?
My problem with that is, what about Jesus? What are you guys? Old covenant atheists? People who use the old testament not to foreshadow the new, but to invalidate the whole Bible, and belief in general?
Jesus fulfilled the OC. We are now in a new era. Show me some New Testament scriptures supporting abortion. And, by the way, it was never a discretionary privilege of mankind to abort, even in the Old Testament. If and when it was done, it was done only in cases specifically sanctioned by God, and against the enemies of Israel or God himself.
"If and when it (killing, abortion) was done, it was done only in cases specifically sanctioned by God, and against the enemies of Israel or God himself.
Bullshit. Of course, this would be not morality for all humans, just petty and cultic local God behaviors.
When humans tell you their stupidity and evil is "sanctioned by God," the one they hear in their heads..watch out.
Miguel said :" If and when it was done, it was done only in cases specifically sanctioned by God, and against the enemies of Israel or God himself."
Can an all powerful and all knowing God actually have enemies? What possible harm could a philistine or an assyrian, or even satan for that matter, do to God? If the answer is none, then why do suckling babies and pregnant women need to be slaughtered???
Some comments re that fearsome OT God:
All of us live with death - it is inevitable. But isn't it a puzzle that a loving God claims to kill His creation? How can we reconcile that with Jesus' claim that he came to save the world?
The Old Testament record makes clear that JHVH did indeed kill - sometimes on a massive scale. All mankind but one family of eight, for example, was destroyed in the Flood (Genesis 6). Why? In short, God has a set purpose for the pinnacle of His creation, mankind, and is not disposed to jeopardise that plan. He will remove all obstacles - human, spirit - that knowingly oppose it
Having created man and instructed him in the way of life, the Creator had initiated His plan, having made it plain (Romans 1). We blew it. Rather than follow the Manual we devised our own operating system, and as with any misused device it didn't work. Over the centuries man deviated further and further from the Way - to such a degree that eventually '...GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (Genesis 6:5). The result? All of mankind but for one righteous family was 'purged' in a worldwide flood - to save the plan
Lessons were not learned, and before long the different families were scattered (ch 11) - again to save the plan. But corruption once more set in. The 'righteous' became ever sparser, and the LORD again had to work with one family - that of Abraham. In his days the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah had become degenerate: '...this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me .' (Ezekiel 16:49-50). Clearly a corrupting influence: '....therefore I took them away as I saw good'
God had given ample time for the nations to embrace the one true faith. The Amorites - perhaps the leading Canaanite tribe in occupation of Palestine - sank deeper and deeper into lawlessness, despite the righteous witness of Shem, of Abraham, of Melchizedek. They continued four generations before being expelled by Israel (Genesis 15:16)
Nothing will stand in the way of the fulfillment of God's loving purpose. Here's what the Psalmist tells us: '...You [God] warn the nations and destroy evil people; you wipe out their names forever and ever' (Psalm 9:5 CEV). And: '...the LORD preserves all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy' (145:20). Solomon adds: '...I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me' (Proverbs 8:17). God will when necessary remove individuals, communities, nations who stand in the way. He warns, He is very patient, He is merciful. God is love. But when we persistently 'throw a spanner in the works' - He acts
Jesus is generally perceived as expressing love for all mankind (John 3:16 etc). He is not, however, the 'gentle Jesus' of childhood's bed-time stories. In the days of his flesh, he was fearless when opposed, courageous in face of death. And he 'told it like it is': '.. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:42). The words of Jesus himself! And through the apostle John he adds: '...hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? ' (Revelation 6:16-17)
God's purpose is that not one of us should ultimately perish, that we should change, and He patiently gives us time to so do (II Peter 3:9). Some flatly refuse, preferring their false faiths and corrupt life-style (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11). They will experience the 'wrath of the Lamb', Jesus
In both Old and new Testament the Godhead is presented as loving, gracious, merciful (II Chronicles 30:9 for example). When the Father and Jesus kill it is to protect and advance their master plan (Romans 11:36)
Somebody wrote "When the Father and Jesus kill it is to protect and advance their master plan"
You mean like the Nazi's and their master plan? If the ends don't justify the means for mere humans, why doesn't your God play by his own rules?
Ned
"In both Old and new Testament the Godhead is presented as loving, gracious, merciful (II Chronicles 30:9 for example). When the Father and Jesus kill it is to protect and advance their master plan (Romans 11:36)"
I'm going to puke.
Anon,
Sounds like there is something seriously wrong with The Plan. It keeps breaking down. Maybe the Planner screwed up and doesn't know how to fix it. He just keeps on trying the same failed plan over and over...
Oh, well. Time to wipe 'em out and start over again.
There is no problem as long as you are 'in tune' with the winning team.
Normally, one would think that an all knowing, all understanding being could not have enemies. But, there are those who are 'out of tune'. Willingly, or otherwise they become set up in enmity with God.
If you consider shedding innocent blood to be at the top of the heirarchy of right and wrong, and you work down from that into adultery, stealing, lying, hatred, greed, and vengeful retaliation, an objective person would have to admit that one's quality of life and relations with fellow man improve dramatically in direct proportion to avoidance of the big no nos. Why is it that all civilized nations acknowledge these universal and self evident truths in setting up their own forms of government? Why is it that atheistic communism causes the most horrid contemporary examples of human rights violations? And "they" say that Christians have started all of the wars!
It's not just the Bible that teaches a basic code, either. The great logicians and thinkers of the world have deduced similar behavior and acknowledgement of some of the same principles, only often based on logic rather than crediting a loving Creator. Belief in karma ends up supporting such principles, as well. Being in tune is very important to one's advancement as a human being, or as a civilization. Most people realize this to one degree or another.
If the Old Testament proves anything, it would be the total worthlessness of pain compliance. Man's innate predatory nature cannot be modified through pain compliance. Something higher is required to accomplish that. The dyslexic would hasten to credit man's best friend, doG!
Anonymous said: "In both Old and new Testament the Godhead is presented as loving, gracious, merciful (II Chronicles 30:9 for example). When the Father and Jesus kill it is to protect and advance their master plan (Romans 11:36)"
I get it, it's the old, "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" routine.
Never believed that either.
Should the story be true; remember that they put us here on the same planet that they cast Satan. How wise was that?!
There was no freaking way mankind could win in that scenario.
We didn't blow it, they did.
You wouldn't purposely put your kids in a situation where they grew up with corrupting influences and then blame them for becoming corrupted, you would have to point that finger right back at yourself.
CHARLIE: Should the story be true; remember that they put us here on the same planet that they cast Satan. How wise was that?!
A and E had the same spiritual resources as did Jesus to choose life. He - 'tempted in all points' - chose life, they chose death.
Anonymous retorts: "A and E had the same spiritual resources as did Jesus to choose life. He - 'tempted in all points' - chose life, they chose death."
Um, Jesus was "God" and A & E were human.
In the Bible, Jesus knew who he was; I doubt he felt very tempted at all to take over the kingdoms of the earth or jump off the building.
Give me a break. You cannot compare the two.
I suppose you believe that killing babies in the bible because Samuel saith it was commanded is true and an example of the OT God's "loving and merciful' nature.
CHARLIE: Um, Jesus was "God" and A & E were human.
A & E had no 'baggage'. THey communicated face-to-face with their Creator, and they were thus at least influenced and empowered by the Holy Spirit. They were equipped with the ability to choose right or wrong, implying they knew black from white. Just like Jesus.
...and conversed with a snake.
Get real dude.
A&E? Have we suddenly graduated from basic cable here at AW??
To the anonymous who is literalizing the Old Testament texts (at least I think that's what you're literalizing, if you mean "Abraham and Elijah"), those dudes never lived, dude. They're ancient desert tribe fairy tales......
Hey "Purps". If Abraham and Elijah never existed (from the Qumran scrolls), what makes you think that your Nag Hammadi "dudes" ever lived? I mean, you use them to discredit the canonical gospels, don't you?
Seems like you don't have any organized system of belief, but you'll take any convenient road to discredit that of others.
CHARLIE: and conversed with a snake
Actually, a creature that became a snake. Who knows what was its original form.
"Hey "Purps". If Abraham and Elijah never existed (from the Qumran scrolls), what makes you think that your Nag Hammadi "dudes" ever lived?"
I don't think the Nag Hammadi "dudes" ever lived, either. I think they are allegorical teaching parables, as I believe the canonical texts to be as well. (Albeit re-translated and re-interpreted to suit first Constantine's, then King James', political ambitions.)
"I mean, you use them to discredit the canonical gospels, don't you?"
"Discredit", no. Provide a different perspective on perhaps, for those who are willing to see their spirituality from a different angle than literalist fundamentalist Christianity, yes.
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