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Monday 2 February 2009

HWA - Guilty as Sin

Over on Stan's AR blog you can find this intriguing quote, which I assume comes from John Trechak's original Ambassador Report.

Four ex-WCG members - C. Wayne Cole, Ron Dart, Guy Carnes, and Benny Sharp - testified favorably on Robinson's side at the Tulsa trial. Benny Sharp, for one, was personally aware of the incest, as he was in the room when the legendary "I will destroy you" last meeting took place between HWA and GTA.

In final settlement of a legally dubious, WCG pre-publication lawsuit against Robinson for exposing Armstong's Tangled Web, the losing WCG plaintiffs who sued had to write David Robinson a check for $25,000!

HWA or the WCG never challened the factual, plain truth about Armstrong's incest itself in court, which would be in the preferred legal strategy to stop publication, or get a retraction to set the record straight. But in order to get that public retraction, Armstrong had to have the real truth about the guilt of his repeated criminal incest on his side to win, which he didn't.

The new Living Armstrongism blog fits many of the pieces together in an impressive summary, and reaches its own conclusion. It's an excellent piece of writing.

As the years go by, collective amnesia sets in. Those who left in the eighties were often hard pressed, for example, to tap into the experiences and research of those who'd left in the previous wave of 1974. The Internet has changed all that, and rose-tinted glasses are bound to be shattered.

If the sordid tale of Herbert Armstrong's private life is a threat to anyone's faith, one could only ask whether this is a valuable - perhaps God-given - opportunity to change the focus of that faith. A very long time ago - 1979 to be exact - Tanya Bryan wrote this poem as the result of the upheaval in the church at that time. It appeared in Internews, an early publication of CGI.

HEROES

I am not old
Nor smart
Nor rich
But now I know
There is only one hero.

I've seen promises broken
With no explanation
Words spoken
But not upheld.

I've seen horrendous acts
In the name of religion
People crushed
In the name of God

All the pedestals we place them on
All the blocks we set them on
There is only one we can really count on.
Christ is the only hero.

58 comments:

Anonymous said...

I feel Bob Thiel would gain, if not credibility, or at least some respect, if his "Not Guilty" posting was a consideration of "What If".

Allowing for the hypothetical verification beyond reasonable doubt of this revisited allegation, what, if anything, would be the effect on COG leaders and membership?

Anonymous said...

In all honesty, this HWA incest topic has really stirred up some very personal realizations of how I dealt or actually didn't deal with all that was swirling in the air for practically the entire duration of my ministry. It was "mine" in that I always felt I was working for the people and put them first over those I worked for.
I can give many examples, but won't, of how I did that.

I was in a lot of denial through the years. I believed the message but the administrative messengers were always into some dumbass behaviors and ideas about themselves that was painful to see and impossible to counter and stay with what still seemed to me then to be a correct view of the Bible.

What a conflict it all was. I remember knowing the 60 minutes interview and all th crap I suspected would follow was going to happen, I went visiting and came home after it was over just in absolute denial and not wishing to spend time on the phone having to explain the bafoonery. I was tired even then of being the corporate punching bag. It only got worse through the years of course.

At any rate, it's good to face these things in my spirit and move on. I suppose it accounts now for the need to be authentic and say what I mean and feel.

Thanks Gavin! My brain has had an incestuous relationship with my ever observing self and I haz to repents all over again!

Nice poem. Humans are way over rated heroes and spiritual leaders. That's why now I understand for me that spirituality is an inside job and religion merely what others pour into your head expecting you be certain places, believe certain things and send it in often.

Religion keeps the spirit unconscious and sitting in its seat. (Witness those who come back week after week to hear Dave and Ron, Gerald and Rod) Organizations thwart spiritual growth on the deeply personal level.

Anonymous said...

Again, very good and reaffirming information for those who have left Armstrongism, and whose minds are prepared for this. Somehow, many of those still deeply invested in the WCG+ scam will find ways to circumvent this information and to avoid the obvious conclusions and courses of actions which should result in any logically thinking person's mind.

Generally, public figures will take the time, and spend the money necessary to ensure their credibility. Liberace sued a tabloid and emerged victorious back in the 1950's when the tabloid published an article accusing him of being a homosexual. We now know that the information published in that tabloid was correct, but this did not keep Liberace from defending his reputation.

Carey Grant sued Chevy Chase, and won. Chase had said of Grant on a television talk show, "She's Gay! Didn't you know that? She's quite a gal!"

There are numerous other examples of high profile individuals seeking legal redress when their reputations were in jeopardy.

When GTA allegedly stated, "Dad, I'll destroy you!", HWA could have taken the bait. It seems obvious that since four highly placed GTA sympathizers defended David Robinson in court, GTA was working through surrogates. Just as was HWA when Henry Cornwell and Sherwin McMichael mounted the defense. But, HWA's non-response to the central issue basically muted this attempt to bring the facts into a court of law where they might have been verified and then publicized around the world. It was an incredible example of damage control.

BB

Anonymous said...

"Christ is the only hero"???? Did Dorothy pray to Christ to protect her from HWA's incest? Was Christ HER hero? Did all the WCG members who were duped out of their life savings, out of even seeing doctors to maintain their health, pray to Christ? Was Christ THEIR hero? Was Christ ever anyone's hero? In truth, what has Christ EVER done for ANYONE?

"Christ is the only hero"? What a joke. Christ is a nonexistent mythological figure whom credulous people look to for help, but who in fact delivers none.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:45, I really wish I knew your name. No matter. I'm adding you to my prayer list.

Wheat and tares are allowed to grow side by side for many reasons. One, is God's mercy. He doesn't want to lose anyone, so He allows space for repentance. So, He allows the tares to continue, knowing that their acts spill over and affect the wheat. He gives the wheat strength to get through the adverse things which happen. Those of us who know Him, realize that He can take bad and make good come from it.

I don't know why He allowed this to happen to Dorothy, or why He allowed Armstrongism to continue for so long, taking so many sincere people on a deep dark journey. But, I do know that there are a whole lot of us who might never have studied quite so deeply, or sought Him quite so intensely, had we not needed to recover from the spiritual rape we suffered in WCG.

You might say, in ol' Herb's parlance, that Dorothy was the the "type" of every ACOG member who was ever baptized into Herb's church. In a sad and tragic way, that poor lady typified everyone who ever became part of the Armstrong movement. I hope she finally found her peace with God. That would also be symbolic, and encouraging, because it often appears that some may not make it.

For those who check such things, there are no examples amongst the messages to the churches in Revelation of any church experiencing its genesis with incest in the background. And, the angel would most certainly have known, and would have shared.

Anonymous said...

Overheard at Weiner Dude's house this past weekend: "Laura, come out of the bathtub, baby. You're not going to believe this! The heat is off! All the bloggers have resurrected the old HWA incest stories and are preoccupied with that instead of us!"

LOL,
BB

Anonymous said...

"Those who left in the eighties were often hard pressed, for example, to tap into the experiences and research of those who'd left in the previous wave of 1974."

And those of us who left in the '90s, had completely forgotten about the wave of persona non grata who had been disfellowshipped in the '80s, during the "get the church back on track" era. They just disappeared, as if they had never existed.

Come to think of it, they probably did disappear: As they re-integrated into the main timeline, they disappeared out of the parallel universe we existed in.

Anonymous said...

And now for something completely different:

"People are often surprised to learn that Jesus remains permanently fully human, even as he remains permanently fully divine."

Does anyone know exactly where Ted Johnston is getting these primo drugs from?! He needs to start sharing THAT with the rest of the world, not just the delusions the magic mushrooms are inspiring......

Corky said...

Yep, guilty as sin, no doubt in my mind about it. The man even looked like a pervert now that I look back at 'im.

Don't ya'll think so? Look at that sly, smirky look he has in all his "portraits". Reminds me of the way a fox looks when he leaves the hen house or when a man sneaks in the back door at 3 in the morning.

But, that's just looks, isn't it? He sure didn't look the type that would explode like a stick of dynamite - but he was, wasn't he?

He was like some of the bosses I used to have - claiming to have an "open door" etc. when, in fact, the door was shut - and locked.

Aw Corky, some might say, it's just your hatred of the man that makes you see him that way. But no, I never did hate the man - I despise everything about him and everything he ever stood for, but I never hated him.

There was nothing to hate, because he was nothing, only a con-man who should have spent his last days in a jail cell.

        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

Dennis said...
Religion keeps the spirit unconscious and sitting in its seat.


Kind of like how dogs are in a perpetual genetic state of wolf adolescence?

Its human nature of the leadership to prefer the obsequious groveling to the developed state God intended, of an inquiring and questioning mind seeking knowledge and completely its own goals.

"Such a good boy! Now go fetch this stick!"

Anonymous said...

We will need to hold a trial at some point. Pick the jury, Dr. Bob can play defense lawyer and I shall be the impartial judge!

Anonymous said...

In the end all of this goes to the heart of HWA’s apostleship, his restored truths and other core beliefs. Although it could be said that God has used some pretty questionable folks from time to time (Moses was a murderer, David was a murderer, Noah was a drunk…) never in even the sordid course of the bible was an unrepentant serial rapist or anything of the like elevated by the lord. And to be quite honest, even the bad guys of the bible weren’t as bad as HWA was in real life. If you want to look at it squarely, HWA’s life and work and legacy is almost Satanic. It would be fully satanic, but satan doesn’t have as well filled out of a score card.

Mark Lax

Anonymous said...

Off topic, but Monday was Groundhog Day, and Punxsutawney Phil saw his shadow, so six more weeks of winter weather. I don't remember where, but someone once waxed eloquently on the pagan origins of this tradition.

About a decade ago, I felt like writing an article on who was the better prophet, Herb or Phil. When I asked Phil's assistant for data on the accuracy of the predictions, he told me, Phil is always right! Well, it was still a good movie.

Neotherm said...

'Alexander the Great and many Roman emperors committed incest. They were great men and I am a great man also' sounds a little too convenient. Fits too nicely into the political agenda.

Someone testified that Dorothy said this or that. Show me a signed and authenticated affadavit from Dorothy Armstrong or Herbert Armstrong admitting guilt and I will believe this.

Armstrongite leaders are the least credible people in the world in other contexts in this blog but the most credible people in the world when it comes to this alleged crime.

-- Neo

Anonymous said...

"Off topic, but Monday was Groundhog Day, and Punxsutawney Phil saw his shadow, so six more weeks of winter weather. I don't remember where, but someone once waxed eloquently on the pagan origins of this tradition."

Actually it is Candlemas day, Imbolc, or rather, the Celebration of the Celtic Goddess "Brigid".

"But behind her girlish innocence is the power of a once-great ancestral deity, Brigid, whose name means “The Exalted One,” queen and mother goddess of many European tribes. She is also known as Brigid, Bridget, Brighid, Brighde, Brig or Bride and some scholars consider her name originated with the Vedic Sanskrit word brihati, an epithet of the divine."

http://www.chalicecentre.net/imbolc.htm

The Irish wouldn't give up the celebration of their Goddess, so the Catholic Church turned her into a Christian saint and allowed her to be worshiped in the Spring.

"The 10th century Cormac’s Glossary describes her as the daughter of the Daghda, the “Great God” of the Tuatha de Danaan."

She is "...the most powerful religious figure in all of Irish history"

http://www.druidry.org/obod/deities/brigid.html

There really are Goddesses you know :)

Anonymous said...

When you know a crime is being committed and don't report it, like those men didn't you are enabling it to continue.

Its like witnessing murder and staying silent.
Victims of such crimes are profoundly damaged and some kill themselves.
How could these men stay silent.
Horrid!

Anonymous said...

Thumper, God allowed it because the ministry allowed it. They shut their mouths rather than rescue a girl being abused by their boss.
They valued the money more than the kid. Thats the truth.
They set a man above Christ , far above Christ and worshipped him really.
They allowed him leeway to do as he pleased even if it destroyed lives.
The Talmud says that in the way a person wishes to go he will be lead.
Not by God, no, but by his own inclinations which will seem right to him.
The bible says the whole world is deceived and that included many in the WCG.
God doesn't wipe noses right now in a lot of cases though he does help us out if we are really seeking him.
We are here to learn to handle things like this.
As I said before in a comment earlier, those who knew never spoke up. They are guilty too.

If we see sin we need to speak up and save the sinner from his actions and the victims life and sanity.
If not we are not really Godly people who do unto others are we?

For too long the church of God has sat on its hand and said be ye warmed and be ye filled while they did nothing to make that possible for most.
When push came to shove the church was powerless and pathetic.

It is time it stopped that and turned around.

Anonymous said...

"Show me a signed and authenticated affadavit from Dorothy Armstrong or Herbert Armstrong admitting guilt and I will believe this."

Suppose HWA had prepared such an affidavit for Dorothy to sign to the effect Herbert didn't molest and repeatedly sexually assault her.

If Dorothy signed such an affidavit for Herbert, would you believe that?

Anonymous said...

Boucoup studies have shown insider grapevines more accurate than house organs. This incest offal was common knowledge on the church grapevines back when it seemed to matter, as was the ongoing "GTA and the Millenium Falcon" comic strip/soap opera prior to his permanent exile. Digging up all this rot again has me wondering if Theology ever had a toehold at AC.

Of course it did, and students were profoundly interested in Biblical studies. We believed AC was God's college. That belief motivated the conduct of virtually every student there. Only occasionally did something terrible raise its ugly head, and one quickly learned to hear, see, speak no evil.

At this point in my life the AC experience has become a launching point for reviewing concepts that in days gone by had one leg in truth and the other in distortion. But the goal is the same as it always was -- to understand and embrace Life.

If uncovering HWA's alleged lamentable conduct with his daughter is the only way for some to reach the moral and spiritual high ground, then there are still some primary sources in the extended Armstrong family. Both the Gotts and the Mattsons had children, as did Richard and Ted Armstrong. The Antions are also available, and David Antion pastors an independent church in S. CA. http://www.guardian-ministries.org/

Hearing these stories is an unpleasant matter for me, and extremely depressing, an ugly deterrent to spiritual progress. But then I've more than satisfied my curiosity and now want no more of it.

        AMERICAN KABUKI said...

"Show me a signed and authenticated affidavit from Dorothy Armstrong or Herbert Armstrong admitting guilt and I will believe this."


Show me the law of Gravity, I'm not so sure it exists!

This is normally where I lose all patience with you knuckleheads!

The rest of do all the research, leg work and you sit back in your calcium encrusted cabezas and call us dissidents, hateful, and spiteful.

The only thing that people like us want from you, is to see you open your eyes.

Have a little respect for what we have found on a very obscure subject.

Gavin was kind enough to put it together in a very cogent whole from several sources.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Scribe said...

"We will need to hold a trial at some point. Pick the jury, Dr. Bob can play defense lawyer and I shall be the impartial judge!"

How interesting.

"Former Auschwitz concentration camp inmate Elie Wiesel is said to have witnessed three Jewish prisoners put God on trial in absentia for abandoning the Jewish people during the Holocaust. From this experience, Wiesel wrote the play and novel "The Trial of God'. ...

"The verdict is innocent, after a stirring lone defence by a stranger who in a twist is revealed to be the Devil" (Wikipedia, "Lawsuits Against God").

Anonymous said...

In another thread, Jared appears to agree with the findings.

I wonder if Bob asked Spanky if he ever heard anything?

Well, if Jared agrees, that suits me, say no more...

Anonymous said...

In an earlier thread on this subject matter, Mary Lane said, “when he (GTA) even wrote about the incest problem stating(in a letter to his Dad), "I wanted to leave that family problem behind in your study" quoted in his booklet "The Origin and History of the Church of God International."

MY COMMENT – The only thing I can add to the HWA incest discussion is that when I reached back to my WCG past to get “the rest of the story” after an almost 30 year absence from Armstrongism, I received a copy of the booklet "The Origin and History of the Church of God International”. Mary Lane is correct, and I would challenge Dr. Bob Thiel and anyone else who doubts and is in denial to obtain a copy of the booklet "The Origin and History of the Church of God International” written by GTA and read what GTA had to say on this subject matter.

I would also agree with what Pam wrote only to add that the HWA incest secret was private leverage GTA tried to use when HWA was living. However, after the death of HWA and GTA’s inheritance (the multimillion dollar church business empire) passed to the Tkaches, the HWA incest secret was of no value to GTA. Thus, the answer GTA’s flunky gave to Dr. Thiel stating everything he needed to know about HWA was contained in the autobiography.

The HWA incest secret reminds me of a late 1960s sermon on Idolotry by GTA at Jekyll Island. GTA stated, “If it is true that your idol is YOU, then whom shall God destroy?” To those in denial and blindly revere HWA, I would re-state GTA’s sermon by saying, “If the incest secret is true and your idol is HWA, then whom shall God destroy?”

Richard

Anonymous said...

Thumper said,

"You might say, in ol' Herb's parlance, that Dorothy was the the "type" of every ACOG member who was ever baptized into Herb's church."

No actually you might not say that. I knew thousands who didn't come to Herb's Church. They came because, real or imagined, the Church offered a better literal read of the whole Bible and it's message no matter how conflicted the message is in reality. Most came from the kinds of churches that Joe has now turned WCG into. It's why I told him that he had merely reinvented the Wheel and that which was so new to him was so old and uninspiring or true for most who had more of a background in other church attendance.

I ran across far fewer HWA devotees than I did those that took the Bible as presented by the Church seriously I knew far more that put up with the antics of the Armstrongs and some of the ministry if they had one that made them nuts locally because the message of the book still seemed accurate and they were a part of THAT, not the Armstrongs.

There were always those that follow the man. It was just not my experience with most in reality. I spent far more time trying to balance the membership's anger at the administration of the church for making church more difficult than it needed to be, but they weren't going anywhere. They just tended to vote with their wallet before they really felt a need to vote with their feet.

I told myelf first and then anyone who expressed a concern that it was fine to disregard Gerald Waterhouse anytime they wished. I had long ago, but once I put him in the box that worked for me, I tolerated having to sit two or three times as pastor through his auto pilot series, barely able to keep from going insane. I tended to marginalize those few in my congregations that 'worshipped' GW and loved it when he came.

I stopped tithing in the early 90's and spent six or seven more years in the ministry. I sent them what I wanted to or could afford (inspite of those who think we all got paid big bucks). I'm sure they knew but it never came up. Maybe it did at the end, I don't know.

At any rate, it's not accurate to say the "EVERY COG member..." was a type of this or that based on HWA or any man's faults. Each person is their own person. Each was there for reasons far beyond the adminstration that they didn't interact with often.

I can't think of anyone who was in the church solely because of HWA or GTA and certainly not for the Tkaches. It was how the Book was interpreted that seemed more correct, until it wasn't.

It's exactly why AW can go on for years because those who were the most sincerely into the church's way of seeing the message of the Bible get the most disillusioned over all that has transpired and been ruined in hope, friendships and family matters.

Church members were not a type of Dorothy....or Toto for that matter.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 9:39, there is no reason why these stories should be a spiritual deterrent for you. They are just further indication that we were all looking for spiritual truth in the wrong place.

I see this as simply being a correction. We all felt as if we were studying at the very epicenter of revealed information during this, our own era. The lesson is, we should have done more due diligence. The correct path would have been seeking a relationship with God on an individual basis, independent of any allegedly "chosen" group.

I've been studying the parables of Jesus lately. Our former church affiliation behaved rather curiously like the Pharisees, as opposed to exemplifying the fruits of the Holy Spirit which Jesus brought to mankind. These fruits and lessons have nothing to do with the Armstrongs or their family problems and sins. That is a whole other separate matter. We ought to have been more concerned with discipleship to Jesus rather than looking to one group as our sole source for spiritual guidance.

BB

Anonymous said...

Gavin - "If the sordid tale of Herbert Armstrong's private life is a threat to anyone's faith, one could only ask whether this is a valuable - perhaps God-given - opportunity to change the focus of that faith."

That's a well-spoken phrase right there! True as the sun rises in the east.

Maggie - "They set a man above Christ, far above Christ and worshipped him really."

Also, a well-spoken phrase. And true.

Anonymous said...

Dennis said:
"I believed the message but the administrative messengers were always into some dumbass behaviors and ideas about themselves that was painful to see and impossible to counter and stay with what still seemed to me then to be a correct view of the Bible."

Interesting, how we progress.
As far as Ron Dart now, I think he still believes(or at least states) that the primary problem with the Worldwide Church of God was only one of "administration", and also the fault of members for believing him.

Just like so many others who were once in destructive cults say about the Cult they were once in.

Nice to see we can peek beyond the "church" and see there's a whole world out there which is more honest than any herbie-cult which may have influenced us in the past.

Anonymous said...

Churches can be Pornocracies of the highest order.

Anonymous said...

-- I wonder if Bob asked Spanky if he ever heard anything? --

Rod Meredith's response to one inquiring mind can be read here.

Aw, c'mon guys -- How's come Neotherm gets so much flak? It's not as if he's an Armstrong loyalist or anything. Here's a guy who's dug into WCG's racism and written essays about it -- with footnotes! He finds Armstrongism so anti-biblical that he considers pretty much everyone in the WCG offshoots to be non-Christians. (Which includes me, but that's not my point.)

This man is hardly a Friend of Herb. So why is he being accused of blindly defending the Apostle? If he simply doesn't wish to be counted among the kind of knee-jerk judges that we've all had to endure in WCG, that's a good thing. All he's done is mention reasonable doubt.

I personally believe HWA did it, but I certainly understand Neo's caution.

Libro

(Yay! The Bamboo Frog is back! We missed him!)

Anonymous said...

"As far as Ron Dart now, I think he still believes(or at least states) that the primary problem with the Worldwide Church of God was only one of "administration", and also the fault of members for believing him."


That's pretty much it. Mr. Armstrong made some "mistakes" and caused some harm, but it wasn't that bad and those who can't get over it, or who insist on keeping the memory of those "mistakes" alive in the public arena, have a problem of their own.



Paul Ray

camfinch said...

Here's a question: there have been an number of mentions that Dorothy is no longer with us. Does anyone have certainty of that? Because I have some reason to think that both she and Vern are still alive.

Anonymous said...

"I personally believe HWA did it, but I certainly understand Neo's caution."

Same here.

Anonymous said...

Camfinch: Info on Dorothy

The was a 1999 Journal article that said she was living in Sun City, AZ.

In the introduction to a sermon, GTA mentioned Dorothy and Vern with regards to organizing a "home church" to watch GTA's videotaped sermons.

Anonymous said...

Thumper, this is Anonymous 6:45. Thanks for your well-meaning response. However, the empty platitudes you cite do not help.
"Wheat and tares are allowed to grow side by side for many reasons."? Yes, this is a quote from the book you follow. But the book was written by anonymous men with an agenda. It has no meaning to me. What proof do you have that this is true? God's mercy? There is no evidence of a merciful god. On the contrary, life on earth is quite cruel and merciless.

He doesn't want to lose anyone? Says who? He certainly doesn't seem to be trying very hard to make himself known. He seems to work solely through charlatans who claim to be his ministers and enrich themselves thereby. They and you know no more of god than I.

You say "there are a whole lot of us who might never have studied quite so deeply, or sought Him quite so intensely, had we not needed to recover from the spiritual rape we suffered in WCG." Did you ever consider that those many hours might have been spent on more fruitful endeavors, which might have actually helped you and your fellow man? The time wasted studying an invisible god and a book written by men with an agenda is one of religion's biggest crimes. Wouldn't it be better to cast off the fairy tales, stop making up excuses for your god, and face reality squarely? Only in this way can you truly live life to its fullest.

Anonymous said...

The fact that Thiel won't even consider the accusation (nor any other Cog follower) is because although they claim to believe HWA wasn't perfect (his 1975 prophecies being false), he COULDN'T have been a 'Preeeevert'. It is too sick, too gross, to sinful!!! Way beyond normal human non perfectness. These followers of Cog (Armstrongites) can on one hand believe he had a few human faults, but cannot believe something SO UGLY about the man they worship.

They won't admit they worship him of course. But they do. I Did! I KNOW about following HWA.

Just having this story out there twists their guts! They cannot believe they have followed and still follow someone who has done something SO Evil!

So....is incest a worst sin than lieing? Is the penalty worst? They can follow a liar, but not someone who is sexually immoral.

Seems to me sin is sin is sin is sin is sin.........

Anonymous said...

Camfinch said that he has reason to believe that Dorothy and Vern Mattson "are still with us". He may be correct.

Issue #106 of The Journal (dated January 2006)stated - in an article about Gerald Flurry - that Dorothy was living in Sun City Arizona at that time.

It states, "Mr. Armstrong had two daughters, Beverly Gott, who died in 1992, and Dorothy Mattson, who lives in Sun City, Ariz."

I was one who posted that "...both Herbert and Dorothy are dead..." Maybe not. I thought all of HWA's children had died.

Anonymous said...

Camfinch,

Beverly died in 1992. In Googling Dorothy's name, lots of the incest related sites came up. One indicates that Dorothy lives about 5 miles away from me. Heck, she might even shop at the same supermarket as I do, and I'd never know it.

Is Ramona still alive? Supposedly, she lived about two hours from me.

BB

Anonymous said...

There is a Vern Mattson currently listed in Sun City, Arizona, which agrees with a Worldwide News article of c. 2006/2007 reporting that Dorothy Mattson was alive at a retirement home in Sun City, Arizona. There seems to be no known report of either's death. There is mention on "google" of a Vern Mattson (which may or may not be the same one) who is or recently was 87 years old. The whole story through all these years must have been incredibly painful to these two persons in ways most of us cannot imagine. Although Dorothy's confiding in family members was the source of the story, it appears it was never her wish for the story to become public, which was the doing of others. That is probably the best explanation for why neither she nor her husband have ever spoken publicly about it. Who can blame them for remaining silent. May their final days together be peaceful.

Anonymous said...

Anyone ever read the website Common Ties?

(Google it. I ain't linking it to this post.)

camfinch said...

Thanks to BB, Paco and others who checked further on Dorothy's still being alive. (And yes, BB, her residence is certainly close to you!) The report of Vern's age of 87 sounds about right, assuming the report is a year or two old. I don't know his age in relation to Dorothy's, but I think that she must be 88 going on 89; I seem to recall that she was born in 1920. So odds are they aren't out-and-about very much. But indeed: if all that stuff is true, what a load to carry. Maybe they just found a way to get past it--the human psyche can be most resilient. That they are still together after some 65 years of marriage says a great deal, no matter the history.

Anonymous said...

Thumper, this is Anon 6:45 again. I just need to express one more thought. You say "I don't know why He allowed this to happen to Dorothy". I can tell you exactly why He allowed this to happen. Because he allows EVERYTHING to happen. There is nothing he does not allow to happen. Life on this earth proceeds as if he were not even there at all.

Anonymous said...

There are other WCG retirees that live in Sun City, but I never run into them. One of my geriatric neighbors has invited me to go over there to groove with the retirees at some dances, but no way am I going back to the boogie woogie at the USO mentality of the WWII generation and the WCG. I'd rather listen to Rage Against Machine.

The Mattsons would indeed be in their 80s. I never met them, as the Portune era had already been in progress for several years by the time I arrived at Pasadena. We'd all like to know what really happened, but it's probably best not to disturb these people in their old age. We'll know in the Kingdom, and that's soon enough for me. I don't consider HWA's incest to be a salvation issue, although in some cases knowing might help some others to leave the wrong path.

BB

Anonymous said...

There is nothing he does not allow to happen.

Taken as written, your statement is wrong. For example, He does not allow Fido to die and yet simultaneously allows Fido to remain alive and cheerfully yipping at his owner’s feet. There are only some things that He allows to happen, other things He acts to prevent or directly acts to cause. Probably you meant that things that happen do so because He allows them, though even that’s not quite right.

Life on this earth proceeds as if he were not even there at all.

It is not at all apparent that anything at all could exist if He were not even there at all.

Anonymous said...

Jared Olar said... "Probably you meant that things that happen do so because He allows them, though even that’s not quite right."

Good parsing of the original (insufficiently edited) sentence, but your declaration that it's not quite right is not quite right. I like to pretend that an event is the outcome of an experiment intended to test the hypothesis "God allowed that to happen." In every case, the event is consistent with the hypothesis.

A tornado swept across a community east of here. Some people were killed; others were not. Neighbors attributed the latter to a miracle from God, but if so, he must have allowed the deaths as well. In another incident, a woman was paddling a canoe on a stream north of here. A tree gnawed partway through by beavers fell just as she passed, hit her squarely on the head, and killed her. Just as miraculous as the homeowners spared by the tornado. Consistent with the hypothesis that God allowed it to happen.

By the way, scientists all recognize that a hypothesis that cannot be falsified is worthless.


Jared, you also say, "It is not at all apparent that anything at all could exist if He were not even there at all."

It is even less apparent that God could exist if there were no one in the universe to imagine him.

Corky said...

Jared Olar said...
There is nothing he does not allow to happen.

Taken as written, your statement is wrong. For example, He does not allow Fido to die and yet simultaneously allows Fido to remain alive and cheerfully yipping at his owner’s feet.


Yeah, but Fido doesn't simultaneously die and remain alive. Or, do you think "All Dogs Go to Heaven"?

Anonymous said...

Jared, I believe it is you who is in error. You state "For example, He does not allow Fido to die and yet simultaneously allows Fido to remain alive and cheerfully yipping at his owner’s feet." Yes, God DOES simultaneously "allow" both outcomes - and all other possible outcomes! The fact that God allows them does not mean they all occur! Due to the laws of nature/science, of course only one outcome of a mutually contradictory set of possible outcomes will occur. Whether "god" allows them or not!

Then you say "There are only some things that He allows to happen, other things He acts to prevent or directly acts to cause." Did you make that up? What proof do you have to back up that assertion? Forgive me, but it sounds like so much made-up BS to me.

Anonymous said...

"By the way, scientists all recognize that a hypothesis that cannot be falsified is worthless."

Yes, but this is "worldly science." Godly science is not constrained by beggarly notions
such as hypotheses, which are carnal, human notions and therefore, can be influenced by the Devil.

Paul Ray

Anonymous said...

God allows seemingly random events to happen, but then uses the bad events to turn around and to fulfill His purpose. He's a lot more complex than the human mind can visualize. The subtilties, in many cases, elude the human mind. Actually, all paths lead back to God. Satan probably gets royally pissed at this, but God actually uses Mr. Sneaky Snake for His own purposes!

BB

Anonymous said...

You could call many of Herb's predictions hypotheses; what made them falsifiable hypotheses was sticking dates on them. [Yes, I know, he never set dates on events he said could possibly happen, but sometimes other people, in their enthusiasm, got carried away and stated things that could be mistaken for setting dates. But he said he never did it, so there...]

Anonymous said...

"The subtilties, in many cases, elude the human mind."

Of course. You don't see the shrieking madness in your statements, do you? Of course not. By the way, I have a magic dragon in my garage. What? Oh, of course you can't see it. Or hear it. And my explanation as to why is, well, very similar to your explanation on how God runs The big Show. I hope you will apply your explanation to my magic dragon.

There is a very easy way to deal with reality, BB, without having to construct these Alice In Wonderland mental acrobatic dances:

Sometimes people do bad things to other people. It hurts, and it may not be fair, but it happens. There is no cosmic chess king behind it all.


Paul Ray

Anonymous said...

"God allows seemingly random events to happen, but then uses the bad events to turn around and to fulfill His purpose. He's a lot more complex than the human mind can visualize. The subtilties, in many cases, elude the human mind. Actually, all paths lead back to God. Satan probably gets royally pissed at this, but God actually uses Mr. Sneaky Snake for His own purposes!"

Interesting hypothesis Bob. On what do you base these assertions?

Anonymous said...

"Sometimes people do bad things to other people. It hurts, and it may not be fair, but it happens. There is no cosmic chess king behind it all."

Hear hear!

Anonymous said...

Interesting. AW wants to believe third party hearsay and believe guilt when someone doesn't defend themselves against ridiculous charges but they don't believe GTA when he says "All you need to know about my father is in the "Autobiography of HWA". It appears your true motives shine through.

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:54, what we have seen is third party reports of what they know, and those who were never involved with them denying their testimony.

GTA's statement was made to one of the enquiring parties after the fact. Considering that party's background, GTA must have thought that's all he needed to know... I don't think there's anything to believe or not to believe about his statement.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:47, 3rd party reports don't KNOW anything.That is why they aren't allowed to testify in court! They say they HEARD someone that claims they were a party to a conversation.This amounts to little more than gossip.

Church Trek said...

Intriguing that RLD was a Robinson supporter back then ... later on after starting CEM and its message board, fangs would come out if anyone mentioned this topic, on which the circumstantial evidence is clear as anything ever was. Who is to believe that an uber-narcissist like HWA would not have defended himself, loudly, vigorously and vindictively, if the charges were false? Who would believe that his son -- no matter what disputes he 'd had with his father -- would not defend his father's and his sister's honor, loudly and vigorously, if the charges were false? What causes a person to change like that? Why did GTA walk the thin line of neither confirming nor denying this, but merely hinting at "a personal, family matter"? (A matter too sensitive and painful to describe specifically, yet too obvious to continue to cover up.)

My problem is, I derived quite an education from WCG and CGI for eight long years and I had the luxury of deciding which one to join. So my loyalty was built during those formative teen years, not to organizations or to men, but to the Most High and to the truth. I took the message seriously! Unfortunately, some people caught up in the culture of these organizations made a choice to choose other loyalties than to the truth.

- David Harrell

Anonymous said...

Church Trek, your comments take several leaps in "logic". I was in Tulsa before GTA left and Robinson told everyone to be calm, not to pass judgements and not to believe everything you hear. It wasn't until AFTER he was dismissed that he wrote the book, in which he alleges HE heard GTA make these claims. GTA has NEVER publicly said he actually said that. Using your logic you could jump to say that being that GTA was so furious at HWA for kicking him out, he would have been happy to bring such allegations up and vocalize them to anyone that he could convince to join his flock..but he didn't do that. The fact of the matter is, this is rumor that has always fallen apart when given scrutiny. There are numerous reasons why people don't answer charges, not the least of which is because the claims are silly, baseless or in the case, so pervertedly false. I mean really, do you REALLY believe HWA told Robinson he kept track of how many times he masturbated? The only wacko claiming this is Robinson. I was there in Tulsa, Robinson was a known liar and wacko.

Anonymous said...

Romans 8:28 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

I personally knew (she is dead now) a woman who was raped by GTA in 1971. I was always so amazed how sunny and gracious she was. When I asked her how she could be so upbeat despite what had happened to her, she always referred to this scripture and would say God's love changes everything. She was a stunning example Christian charity.