tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post7053629544698191397..comments2023-11-05T20:19:44.812+13:00Comments on Ambassador Watch: Larry's questionGavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-58948679526026629682008-06-30T04:20:00.000+12:002008-06-30T04:20:00.000+12:00On a personal note, If Tom Mahon needs me, I will ...On a personal note, If Tom Mahon needs me, I will be in D.C.<BR/><BR/>RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-36947147367035132072008-06-30T02:32:00.000+12:002008-06-30T02:32:00.000+12:00Paco,Thanks for the book recommendation, I will ke...Paco,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the book recommendation, I will keep my eye open for it.<BR/><BR/>You're right about treating everything in moderation. I think I've pretty much OD'd on the ex-member sites for the better part of the last year, but it has definitely had a positive impact on my mental life. Now it's time for me to parlay that positive effect onto my physical life.<BR/><BR/>"But they just keep pullin' me back in!!" ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-90820773736113255362008-06-29T14:12:00.000+12:002008-06-29T14:12:00.000+12:00I haven't read all the comments, so this may have ...I haven't read all the comments, so this may have been said before, but I think one of the reasons we do it is because we want to know that we're not the only one who has the feelings we have about our experience in the WCG. If other people react the same way I did, then there is probably something wrong with the organization, not with me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-29542213752845039702008-06-29T13:34:00.000+12:002008-06-29T13:34:00.000+12:00Purple Hymnal,I think participation in these group...Purple Hymnal,<BR/><BR/>I think participation in these groups for me presents a fine line between improving my mental health on one hand and exacerbating old mental and emotional wounds on the other hand. A little of it can be invigorating.<BR/><BR/>For instance, I learn more about the real origins of some christian teachings and I get to validate my experiences through comparable experience of others here on this blog.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, too much exposure brings on depression and anxiety.<BR/><BR/>By the way, "Rational Recovery" is a real book that is primarily concerned with helping people overcome alcoholism. I used its principles to help overcome - or at least hold at bay - certain thoughts and anxieties that bothered me a lot when I decided to break from wcg "church thought."<BR/><BR/>On a personal note, I like Aggies even though I attended and graduated from other Texas universities. Gig 'em!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-65255772303736851302008-06-29T13:33:00.000+12:002008-06-29T13:33:00.000+12:00Purple Hymnal,I think participation in these group...Purple Hymnal,<BR/><BR/>I think participation in these groups for me presents a fine line between improving my mental health on one hand and exacerbating old mental and emotional wounds on the other hand. A little of it can be invigorating.<BR/><BR/>For instance, I learn more about the real origins of some christian teachings and I get to validate my experiences through comparable experiences of others here on this blog.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, too much exposure brings on depression and anxiety.<BR/><BR/>By the way, "Rational Recovery" is a real book that is primarily concerned with helping people overcome alcoholism. I used its principles to help overcome - or at least hold at bay - certain thoughts and anxieties that bothered me a lot when I decided to break from wcg "church thought."<BR/><BR/>On a personal note, I like Aggies even though I attended and graduated from other Texas universities. Gig 'em!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-91340897084665406462008-06-29T13:12:00.000+12:002008-06-29T13:12:00.000+12:00"Wonder where the double doctor gets his inside in..."Wonder where the double doctor gets his inside information from.<BR/><BR/><BR/>He makes it up as he goes along. Since humans have not perfected knowing what is going to happen an hour from now, we can rest assured he has not perfected 2012+3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-87088784681977057992008-06-29T12:47:00.000+12:002008-06-29T12:47:00.000+12:00"Whether you like it or not, whether you believe i...<EM>"Whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, you know alot more about God and Christianity than most other people, even people who have studied it all their lives.</EM><BR/><BR/>Exactly right. I absolutely agree with this. I know that Christianity, the state religion of Rome, was based on the Egyptian mystery school religions of Isis, Horus, and Osiris. The christ figure in the canonical christian new testament is a very bad parody of the Horus legends, and the canonical christian texts of the old testament matches up with the Egyptian creation legends almost word for word.<BR/><BR/>And if I hadn't been raised in an oppressive, restrictive, thought-reform regime, under a Bible-based high demand religious group, I would never have known that there were other versions of reality out there, then just the warped version the church preached.<BR/><BR/><EM>"I just hope and pray that your character is not so hardened by these blogs that you refuse the accept the truth in the resurrection."</EM><BR/><BR/>Oh, I don't intend to refuse to accept it, I intend to do a swan dive into the Lake of Fire, laughing all the way down --- because that is definitely not a kingdom I would willingly spend eternity in!!!<BR/><BR/><EM>"Participation here is also part of the "rational recovery" that I go through on a constant basis to protect my sanity."</EM><BR/><BR/>Paco! You mean that's what keeps pulling me back in?? 8-OAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-5372927286700954492008-06-29T12:33:00.000+12:002008-06-29T12:33:00.000+12:00Best explanation for the reaction Armstrongism has...Best explanation for the reaction Armstrongism has produced on these forums, sites and blogs is Newton's Third Law.<BR/><BR/>BBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-46066168136277679732008-06-29T11:40:00.000+12:002008-06-29T11:40:00.000+12:00Side note:Bob Thiel made it official on his web si...Side note:<BR/><BR/>Bob Thiel made it official on his web site today....The Tribulation "CANNOT BEGIN BEFORE 2012"!!!!<BR/><BR/>"As I have been posting for a while, the Great Tribulation cannot begin BEFORE 2012 and is most likely going to start 1-3 years after that."<BR/><BR/>Wonder where the double doctor gets his inside information from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-62889521098216653822008-06-29T11:25:00.000+12:002008-06-29T11:25:00.000+12:00Hey Tom,When are you going to post your picture th...Hey Tom,<BR/><BR/>When are you going to post your picture that you said you would.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-288015428766061542008-06-29T11:20:00.000+12:002008-06-29T11:20:00.000+12:00"because the message is SO powerful and touches th..."because the message is SO powerful and touches the innermost core of man's desires.""<BR/><BR/><BR/>How so?? <BR/><BR/><BR/>The Apostate PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-4271867842823644792008-06-29T10:50:00.000+12:002008-06-29T10:50:00.000+12:00Tom Mahon said... Steve said...>>>I said that?It's...Tom Mahon said... <BR/>Steve said...<BR/><BR/>>>>I said that?<<<BR/><BR/>It's a paraphrase of what you said.<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: You sure do try to weasel your way out of the holes that you dig for yourself, don't you?<BR/><BR/>>>Well, go ahead...examine them. Please use Scriptures to prove me wrong.<<<BR/><BR/>To date you haven't posted an explanation of any doctrines, so how can I prove you wrong?<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: Here's what was said:<BR/>tom mahon said..."As a consequence, he announced that the Sabbath had been done away;"<BR/><BR/>I said: He was right on that one. No command in the New Testament to keep it.<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: Prove me wrong.<BR/><BR/>"Christians could vote;"<BR/><BR/>I said: Right again. Christians voted in the New Testament.<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: Prove me wrong.<BR/><BR/>"birthdays could be celebrated"<BR/><BR/>I said: Right again. No where does it tell us that it is a sin to celebrate birthdays.<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: Prove me wrong.<BR/><BR/>"and that when sick, going to the doctor should take precedence over being anointed:"<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: Have you ever been sick...I mean, to death?<BR/><BR/>"just to mention a few heretical changes."<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: So, name some "important" ones.<BR/><BR/>>>>If you want to, we can make it a private discussion. Makes no difference to me.<<<<BR/><BR/>That is OK by me. I will post on my blog, my criticism of Tkach's view that God has more than one church; that WCG was not the one true church God and that there are Christians in other churches. Is that OK with you?<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: I don't think we were discussing that one. Just came up with it out of the blue, did ya? Yeah, it's ok with me. ;-)Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-51152283146174307422008-06-29T10:37:00.000+12:002008-06-29T10:37:00.000+12:00Tom Mahon said... Steve said...TOM>>>In a world of...Tom Mahon said... <BR/>Steve said...<BR/><BR/>TOM>>>In a world of uncertainty, doubt and mutual flattery, anyone who speaks with certainty is often described as arrogant, self righteous, bigoted or even insane. So your comment confirms the human condition.<<<<BR/><BR/>Steve>>>I wonder if the Pharisees in Jesus' day thought the same thing.<<<<BR/><BR/>How does what you wonder help us to understand the perception of self righteousness, in a world of uncertainty, doubt and mutual flattery?<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT: I wonder if the Pharisees of Jesus' day asked the same question.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-87262427108785339132008-06-29T10:08:00.000+12:002008-06-29T10:08:00.000+12:00Larry said, "The Church has always been special an...Larry said, "The Church has always been special and unique. This is why such a small group has made such an amazing impact on civilization down through history, because the message is SO powerful and touches the innermost core of man's desires."<BR/><BR/>MY COMMENT - Oh boy, are you ever delusional! <BR/><BR/>So Larry, what amazing impact did HWA and the WCG have on civilization? <BR/><BR/>99.9% of the earth's population have never heard the name Herbert W. Armstrong or the Worldwide Church of God, so please tell us the amazing impact on civilization?<BR/><BR/>RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-62737966154727807182008-06-29T09:53:00.000+12:002008-06-29T09:53:00.000+12:00"He was astounded by the fact that he already knew..."He was astounded by the fact that he already knew this information which was considered "new and revolutionary understanding" by everyone else."<BR/><BR/>Yes, when I was an adult in the Army and re-visiting the religion my mother taught me as a small child, I too was astounded at the "truth" I inherently knew that other could barely understand! Amazing! The problem was that it was invalid- all Really Bad Theology and utterly worthless. But I got off on the self-righteous high it gave me, as all of us did to one degree or another, and some of us- you and Tom included, still do.<BR/><BR/>The Apostate PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-78385918162348442752008-06-29T09:51:00.000+12:002008-06-29T09:51:00.000+12:00Basically we're all here because we were once part...Basically we're all here because we were once part of WCG. Just a bunch of people trying to process a very UNspecial and relatively minor cult.<BR/><BR/>Man! I'd love to be a fly on the wall at some of the sphincter groups' sabbath services today! I'd just bet that someone, somewhere would say something like, "Hey, did you see what is happening at Ambassador Watch? Two of our brethren named Tom and Larry have signed on there and are just kicking ass on all the infidels!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-5118209025667149622008-06-29T09:37:00.000+12:002008-06-29T09:37:00.000+12:00Larry,Your comments are living proof that you are ...Larry,<BR/><BR/>Your comments are living proof that you are still a "true believer" (of who knows what) who is impervious to fact or reason. You live in a fantasy world.<BR/><BR/>As the saying goes, "I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you." The multiple comments in this string have given more than adequate responses to your query. You, however, seem to have no ears to hear, at least at this time. You can't comprehend the elephant that is standing right in front of you.<BR/><BR/>I respect your right to believe whatever you choose -that's your choice and your responsibility - but I don't have to respect what you actually believe. I sometimes participate in this blog because I want to do something to help people get out of or recover from the life-crushing experience that was and is the wcg and its offshoots. Participation here is also part of the "rational recovery" that I go through on a constant basis to protect my sanity.<BR/><BR/>You are not special and neither is the wcg or its children (and neither am I). You are part of a destructive cult. You and I are part of the 6 billion people on earth trying to get through each day as best we can. Try living in reality for awhile.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-33312212586403097132008-06-29T07:46:00.000+12:002008-06-29T07:46:00.000+12:00Paco, your very presence here is living proof that...Paco, your very presence here is living proof that it is "special". I am piercing through TO reality. TRUTH is indeed, and always has been stranger than fiction.larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207263922457941293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-33152653245424017282008-06-29T06:55:00.000+12:002008-06-29T06:55:00.000+12:00Larry,Your fundamental premise of the "specialness...Larry,<BR/><BR/>Your fundamental premise of the "specialness" of the wcg is wrong. To me, the question as you framed it displays a certain naivite and a touch of arrogance. It is only because the wcg experience is part of our story that it feels "special and unique" to us.<BR/><BR/>The wcg is not and has never been "special and unique" except in the very specific details of what went on there. Other religious or personality cults have the same general story but differ on the specifics.<BR/><BR/>Former wcg members are not unique in their passion. As an example, the Mormon church has a vigorous group of former members who warn people of that cult. There are also sites that deal with Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Oral Roberts, and many others.<BR/><BR/>People are passionate about their wcg experiences because that experience was all consuming. For many, the church was their lives. They sacrificed their present lives for a promised future, based on what "God's Apostle" assured them was their ultimate reward. "God's Apostle" turned out to be a self-serving egomaniac. The promises turned out to be lies or at least wrong. Some former members have a lot of anger that they direct to themselves (for being so stupid as to get involved) and to the wcg power structure for victimizing them.<BR/><BR/>There are now current and former wcg people spread out all over the continuum of belief in a long line of belief, partial belief and non-belief in the doctrines once taught by the wcg. Each person is at a different point on that continuum. That is why we get so many different responses to questions about why it happened and what it all meant.<BR/><BR/>This is just my impression, Larry, but it seems to me that you are one who believes that the old wcg was essentially correct and that you and a small group of other true believers are members of God's chosen few who still hold to the truth no matter what. Either that, or you may believe that making the transition from the old wcg to the new wcg makes you special in God's eyes. You seem to think that the "passion" displayed by people on this blog is somehow proof that the wcg is or was the unique place in which God was really working with people.<BR/><BR/>If you believe that, or something close to it, that is your right. However, it is my view that people who honestly believe that the old or current wcg was or is special in God's eyes are totally incorrect. My view is that you are in an extreme state of denial of reality.<BR/><BR/>Some people are passionate about the wcg experience because it was such an important part of their lives and it turned out to have such a negative - and sometimes devastating - impact on their lives.<BR/><BR/>Your comments about the biblical ignorance you find in many other other churches, while true in many cases, is irrelevant to the argument that the wcg was or is special is God's eyes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-32074512983153784092008-06-29T06:54:00.000+12:002008-06-29T06:54:00.000+12:00Larry said...I have been to many other churches an...Larry said...<BR/><I>I have been to many other churches and my wife is a devout Catholic. The level of true ignorance in these other churches is beyond description. All of this is not coincidence.</I><BR/><BR/>It most certainly is not coincidence. And if one of the other chuches visited one of the ACoGs, they would say the same thing about the "true ignorance" of the ACoG.<BR/><BR/>It is because they have been taught to believe different doctrines than the CoGs. <BR/><BR/>To you the Catholic is wrong, to the Catholic, you are wrong. Proving that both are a delusion of the respective person's mind.<BR/><BR/>It doesn't involve coincidence at all, it's perfectly natural and human. <BR/><BR/>The believer thinks that the unbeliever is stupid and ignorant and the unbeliever thinks that the believer is stupid and ignorant - same thing.<BR/><BR/>If a person is born and raised in a Christian country, chances are he will be Christian. If a person is born and raised in a Muslim country, chances are he will be Muslim.<BR/><BR/>Delusions of the mind and idols of the heart is all it all is.<BR/><BR/>A person who knows "the truth" knows nothing but a delusion of what he thinks "the truth" is.<BR/><BR/>Too many things that are "the truth" today will not be "the truth" tomorrow, so that "the truth" is impossible to apply to all the time, because sometimes it's not "the truth".Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-59596055246654040302008-06-29T06:02:00.000+12:002008-06-29T06:02:00.000+12:00The answers to the question you posed have been in...The answers to the question you posed have been interesting, but no one has touched on the main point. Why does the WCG elicit such an intense emotional response in its current and former members? <BR/><BR/>It is special and unique.<BR/><BR/>The Church has always been special and unique. This is why such a small group has made such an amazing impact on civilization down through history, because the message is SO powerful and touches the innermost core of man's desires. This is the desire to live, to accomplish, to know, to reach out beyond one's self, to interact with God. <BR/><BR/>Humans inherently and instinctively feel this need, but often cannot explain it, and certainly cannot satisfy it.<BR/><BR/>Regardless of how you feel about Mr. Armstrong, he reached that area of the mind for many people. Lots of you here suggest that this was all a ruse, not so. <BR/><BR/>I have been to many other churches and my wife is a devout Catholic. The level of true ignorance in these other churches is beyond description. All of this is not coincidence.larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207263922457941293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-7267876994843336222008-06-29T05:59:00.000+12:002008-06-29T05:59:00.000+12:00What's the first thing you get when you move into ...What's the first thing you get when you move into a new neighborhood? An invitation to a church! <BR/><BR/>"Come be with us and feel the love and the warmth. Meet people. Fellowship with us." <BR/><BR/>I still say that ALL churches are cults, and belong to satan. The God that people are looking for is not there. He is not in any so called church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-51692335792975849172008-06-29T04:42:00.000+12:002008-06-29T04:42:00.000+12:00'They seem to be those, not unlike gang members an...'They seem to be those, not unlike gang members and members of cults and occults, who "just need to feel a sense of belonging to something".<BR/>Those who remain are those who actually took the time to prove the things they were professing to believe.'<BR/><BR/>Why the heck do you think people go to a Protestant or Catholic congregation... or Jewish or Muslim?<BR/><BR/>Churches are the poor man's country club. It is a place for friends and a sense of belonging. <BR/><BR/>ALL CHURCHES ARE PLACES FOR POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS FOLKS TO MEET AND FEEL LIKE THEY BELONG.<BR/><BR/>And why the heck do you think CoG folks are so lonely? It is because their place of meeting and belonging has been taken away from them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-43207062757877322482008-06-29T03:56:00.000+12:002008-06-29T03:56:00.000+12:00Tired Skeptic said...Tom>>>Are you new here or "fa...Tired Skeptic said...<BR/><BR/>Tom>>>Are you new here or "fairly new?" Which ever it is, it would have been courteous of you if you had introduced yourself by saying, my name is.....! Then a welcome could have been extended to you.<<<BR/><BR/>DB>>>It's as we suspected for some time: The dyslexic personality disorder laden has taken over Ambassador Watch as the moderator now -- or at least, as he weaves his web of deceptions, would like people to believe that he is IN CHARGE.<<<<BR/><BR/>I am sure that had the person introduced himself, Gavin would have welcomed him: and even you, if your anger can be abated for a few minutes, would have added your welcome.Tom Mahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087223683733643082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-71450429830152099442008-06-29T03:42:00.000+12:002008-06-29T03:42:00.000+12:00Steve said...>>>I said that?It's a paraphrase of w...Steve said...<BR/><BR/>>>>I said that?<<<BR/><BR/>It's a paraphrase of what you said.<BR/><BR/>>>Well, go ahead...examine them. Please use Scriptures to prove me wrong.<<<BR/><BR/>To date you haven't posted an explanation of any doctrines, so how can I prove you wrong?<BR/><BR/>However, if you support Tkach's doctrinal changes, it may be pointless even discussing them with you, as most people who support the changes are completely irrational. Over the past 13 years, I have discussed the doctrinal changes with many who are still attending WCG, and they have all trotted out a list of religious platitude, taken from Joe's Evangelical Alliance Scrapbook. I hope your approach will be different.<BR/><BR/>>>>If you want to, we can make it a private discussion. Makes no difference to me.<<<<BR/><BR/>That is OK by me. I will post on my blog, my criticism of Tkach's view that God has more than one church; that WCG was not the one true church God and that there are Christians in other churches. Is that OK with you?Tom Mahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087223683733643082noreply@blogger.com