tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post6423308413486839754..comments2023-11-05T20:19:44.812+13:00Comments on Ambassador Watch: UCG letter, harbinger of a difficult year aheadGavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-77548663346476994372010-01-06T03:28:57.329+13:002010-01-06T03:28:57.329+13:00Oh my, the "David sinned too" quote that...Oh my, the "David sinned too" quote that is most often used for GTA's antics!! I always answer that David's example is there so we know what NOT to do...not use it as an excuse to sin. The NT gives guidelines for ministers conduct...if a person cannot follow those guidelines it is simple...he shouldn't be a minister.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-33258746514243188432010-01-05T11:59:16.158+13:002010-01-05T11:59:16.158+13:00Check out the UCG bloggers trying to keep the shee...Check out the UCG bloggers trying to keep the sheeple in line!<br /><br />John Carmack: "DAVID SINNED TOO!!" *waves hands frantically to distract people*<br /><br />Mike Bennett: "DO NOT BE STIFF-NECKED AND REBELLIOUS PEONS!!!" *cracks whip like an Egyptian*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-66849161538107065582010-01-05T04:26:52.143+13:002010-01-05T04:26:52.143+13:00Part 2
That is but ONE SMALL example. It happened...Part 2<br />That is but ONE SMALL example. It happened to us over and over in different ways, and I know of many, many other congregations where the same type of things happened. In other words, even doing good things for others was not only discouraged it was forbidden and often stopped. Yet even today, they don't seem to get it that as long as the local congregations are ruled over like that and all they want is funding from the members...there is not going to be unity, there is not going to be enthusiasm (they squelch it), there is not going to be joy (serving is discouraged)...I could go on and on.<br /><br />But like the letter said...this is the way it was set up...with the COE in charge. Now maybe this group of guys want to loosen it up a bit, but I am quite sure neither they, nor the CGE as a whole is willing to overhaul the system into one of inclusion of the church members.<br /><br />Pay and pray (and shut up) is NOT the way.Former UCG membernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-57721275660883903322010-01-05T04:26:28.376+13:002010-01-05T04:26:28.376+13:00And here I thought they had gotten rid of all the ...And here I thought they had gotten rid of all the "troublemakers". The majority of those "troublemakers" that have left UCG over the years were usually, actually the whistleblowers on less than ethical behavior on the part of pastors, regional pastors, administration, or COE members. These would be some of the same folks that the COE is now writing about. Some (most?) RP's and some in administration, and some local pastors are the old school hard heads who are causing the current COE the consternation they now feel which prompted them to write this letter. I won't say I like the letter, because I don't agree with the premise that God is necessarily endorsing UCG in some way. <br /><br />It's too bad UCG won't do what is REALLY necessary to make it work...GET RID OF THE HIERARCHY. Some of us independents have discovered the joy of working together in peace...and NO ONE is in charge to make it happen. Of course any group is going to have bumps in the road, but our little group of about 35 have learned that we have to work together and use everyone's talents to make the congregation work. Yes, we all have our roles and responsibilities, and we do have organizational meetings, but when everyone has a humble attitude, it all just works!!<br /><br />But this would be way too radical for most UCG folks. There has since the beginning been a clash between the COE and aministration. It represents the larger problem of the 2 camps in UCG. It is a constant power struggle. And will continue to be. This letter is going to irritate the "other side". It is not going to help. Whether the hierarchy is led by an individual or a COE...it is the concept that there should be a hierarchy at all that goes against what was advocated in Indy. I was there...I received copies of the papers telling the local congregations to set up boards and collect tithes locally and that TRUST was going to be placed in the local congregations. Instead of building on that approach...it quickly returned to what we were told are the "normal, traditional way of doing things". This meant from the top down. It is why we left UCG. It wasn't what we had signed up for. It was bait and switch. The idea of a COE was in itself ill conceived. There should have been a board of a mixture of folks. Members (men AND women) and some ministers, and ALL members (and here I mean church members, not the legal corporate members) should have had a voice in who those folks would be. But most folks in UCG don't have a mentality to be able to do that. I mean to look around objectively and see who would be a good leader...in that I mean who would do a good job of SERVING...like Christ did.<br /><br />When I look around at folks in the independent world...they are most often the folks who had been doing A LOT of the serving in their UCG congregations. They are the ones who had initiative and would get things done. <br /><br />As an example of squelching enthusiasm...and I could give MANY, MANY examples....our UCG congregation had become sister congregations with a congregation in Nigeria. We were sending money over for them for Feast Days, etc, so they could have some special meals. When Home Office found this out...suddenly no one would take our contributions over when they went. We had to send any funds to the HO...and they would decide to whom and where the funds would go.<br /><br />see part 2Former UCG membernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-7808362569304707242010-01-04T19:44:11.350+13:002010-01-04T19:44:11.350+13:00Just a bit from one paragraph of the letter-
&quo...Just a bit from one paragraph of the letter-<br /><br />"We have a toxic atmosphere in the Church where innuendos (“it looks like...”)"<br /><br />And then, the letter says-<br /><br />"Some in the ministry appear to be getting together and “roasting” the Council based upon second- third- or fourth-hand hearsay or rumors."<br /><br />Huh?!?!?!<br /><br />Doesn't "appear to be" fall into the same category as the "it looks like...", which the letter has just demonized?<br /><br />I suppose they(the ones behind the letter) figure if they do it, it's ok, but if anyone else does it, they ought to be demonized.<br /><br />To take the logic further, those who wrote the letter are saying that they themselves are Satan's pawns!Melnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-44899642790535885092010-01-04T17:24:03.476+13:002010-01-04T17:24:03.476+13:00From what little I know about what's going on ...From what little I know about what's going on in UCG it is interesting the Council is asking the people and ministers to support them for the sake of unity. Didn't most of these Council members get there by opposing the actions of the former Council and the administration? Interesting how submission and unity is good when it is convenient for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-2587794061949195102010-01-04T14:51:59.084+13:002010-01-04T14:51:59.084+13:00Larry said ... "You folks who persist in sayi...Larry said ... "You folks who persist in saying that the WWCG "does not follow God anymore" are just clueless. I suggest you refrain from opining on subjects about which you apparently know nothing."<br /><br />Thank you Larry!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-32470929837960464762010-01-04T13:31:05.754+13:002010-01-04T13:31:05.754+13:00I hope they can get this straightened out in time ...I hope they can get this straightened out in time to "clean up" (sic) for The Days of Unleavened Bread!!!!!! <br /><br />Wow A group of people that has to contend with inuendos and "false accusations" that meet behind closed doors!!!!!! Remember a leopard can't change his spots!!!!!Vee have vays of making you listen!!!!JIM (Masters Degree in the obvious)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-59067361914712587582010-01-04T02:29:35.200+13:002010-01-04T02:29:35.200+13:00Why am I not surprised? The leadership of United ...Why am I not surprised? The leadership of United operates and thinks inside the box built by WWCG. This is the only way they know how to think and operate. A real blast from the past. Maybe they should hire Dana Carvey for some "church lady" counselling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-40029359846151489352010-01-02T19:53:09.339+13:002010-01-02T19:53:09.339+13:00UCG is as fractured internally as the hundreds of ...UCG is as fractured internally as the hundreds of COG splits at large? How can this be?<br /><br />How can it <i>not</i> be?Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-89817305023925105502010-01-02T17:23:09.390+13:002010-01-02T17:23:09.390+13:00First of all, thank you Gavin for posting this let...First of all, thank you Gavin for posting this letter. This is why I (a UCG member) appreciate you keeping up AW, and hope you'll continue to do so -- to "keep it real," as they say at TMZ.<br /><br />I frankly have my doubts about whether this letter will be read at UCG services. So I'm glad it was posted here. The membership needs to know what's really going on -- if only so it can pray for the healing of the church body.<br /><br />I personally was surprised that Clyde Kilough received another term as UCG President, given the way the "move to Texas" was handled. Perhaps others can analyze (in a measured and serious way, please) what that means in the overall scheme of things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-11745219394242465622010-01-02T16:36:40.146+13:002010-01-02T16:36:40.146+13:00"I'm proud of the people of the CGI and i...<em>"I'm proud of the people of the CGI and its courageous leadership, naysayers not withstanding. CGI rocks!"</em><br /><br />Larry is still in Gracie's cultic clutches, Susan, he's not a member of Dropped Dead Ted's little coven.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-32756355924621378072010-01-02T05:37:13.836+13:002010-01-02T05:37:13.836+13:00Hmmmm..... does this mean Joel Meeker is going to ...Hmmmm..... does this mean Joel Meeker is going to be fired?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-44000078926238784052010-01-02T04:20:54.139+13:002010-01-02T04:20:54.139+13:00The UCG letter reads "When the Council states...The UCG letter reads "When the Council states that it would like to see increased emphasis placed on preaching the gospel, an outward focus that has always been a driving force in the mission of the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Council is accused of neglecting the local congregations....."<br />A primary reason for this is that the UCG doesn't understand that the mission of preparing a people is to facilitate the local congregations to 1) take care of themselves and 2) reach out to others. The UCG is all about controlling both aspects with the unbiblical idea that the God actually desires the kind of corporate structure that excludes His people from the actual work. The UCG people are isolated from the mission having practically no part outside of financing it. All they are being prepared for is seat warming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-81892252070306865852010-01-01T19:58:09.876+13:002010-01-01T19:58:09.876+13:00larry said...
Those of us in the GCI are and have ...larry said...<br /><i>Those of us in the GCI are and have been devout servants of The Almighty God, and have every intention of staying that way.<br /><br />You folks who persist in saying that the WWCG "does not follow God anymore" are just clueless. I suggest you refrain from opining on subjects about which you apparently know nothing</i>.<br /><br />Those of us who were members of the WCG know for a fact that GCI is not one and the same church as the Armstrong cult. Somewhere along the line you lost connection.<br /><br />I could <i>suggest</i> that is you who should have no opinion, because apparently you don't have a clue about the changes made from the WCG of our days to the GCI of today.<br /><br />I don't know if you had your head in the sand or up your a** but it must have been somewhere besides on your shoulders.<br /><br />That aside, keep on posting, I love to use your snippets as email forwarding jokes.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-2953182153170080892010-01-01T14:58:41.808+13:002010-01-01T14:58:41.808+13:00Typical Armstrongite blubbering.
Satan is the bla...Typical Armstrongite blubbering.<br /><br />Satan is the blame for everything. Satan is the all powerful, omnipotent, all know god of Armstrongism. Armstrongites believe that Satan is much more powerful than Jesus. Old JC only gets a little lip service one or two times in the blubberfest. Yet Satan is a busy little demon stirring a general stink ALL THE TIME! <br /><br />It is no wonder Armstrongism is dying off. It has nothing to offer the world except a pesky old serpent called Satan. <br /><br />Jesus is not a priority in Armstrongite scatology and is glaringly absent in UCG elder letter.NO2HWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-25936780553932411312010-01-01T14:33:33.717+13:002010-01-01T14:33:33.717+13:00Mickey said...
Do you wonder how many long for th...Mickey said... <br />Do you wonder how many long for the "good old days" when there was only one dictator in charge?<br /><br />Of yes, "the good old days," just like the current administration of UCG would like to see, "top down goverment." <br /><br />I applaud the current, new council, for taking charge and stopping the men who would take the church back to those "good old days." <br /><br />So why have we not heard from the President of UCG? Should he not also be sending out a letter encouraging the church/ministers/members to support the decisions made from the GCE and the council for the sake of unity? Or is he part of the problem of fanning the flames? All the church has seen from Kilough is stepping down from the new council. <br /><br />Let's hope for the sake of the church that all the adiministration will be removed from their jobs and that would start with removing Kilough. <br /><br />Let them form their own church if they want a one man, top down dictatorship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-48315285973926011592010-01-01T13:37:25.084+13:002010-01-01T13:37:25.084+13:00Larry said ... "You folks who persist in sayi...Larry said ... "You folks who persist in saying that the WWCG "does not follow God anymore" are just clueless. I suggest you refrain from opining on subjects about which you apparently know nothing."<br />-----------------<br /><br />Well said, Larry. We in the CGI are deeply committed to the way of God. And we appreciate true Christians in other Churches who are so committed. I'm proud of the people of the CGI and its courageous leadership, naysayers not withstanding. CGI rocks!SusanCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-22944776934855121292010-01-01T13:35:15.858+13:002010-01-01T13:35:15.858+13:00A shot from the progressives across the bow of the...A shot from the progressives across the bow of the conservatives. Amusing.<br /><br />I think it's funny that UCG quotes the Bible throughout this letter where it suits them, but ignores it where it doesn't. I'm speaking specifically about their practice of holding secret "executive sessions", which they justify because apparently other non-profits do the same and as such that makes it all ok and perfectly acceptable.<br /><br />Yet the Bible exhorts believers to avoid the appearance of evil. Holding closed-door meetings, whose outcomes affect not only the livelihoods but the very reputations of individuals who are often not present to defend themselves, certainly constitutes "the appearance of evil."<br /><br />We all know these executive sessions have been used to steamroll members and ministers alike in the past. What proof is there this is going to change anytime soon? None.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-21235501033373240202010-01-01T13:13:06.582+13:002010-01-01T13:13:06.582+13:00John Foster was let go? When did this happen? An...John Foster was let go? When did this happen? And for what reason?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-82635199212081657472010-01-01T12:34:43.659+13:002010-01-01T12:34:43.659+13:00Fracture and break apart, you who pimp Christ for ...Fracture and break apart, you who pimp Christ for a profit! You will need a strong arm from somewhere.<br /><br />May I suggest the church return to its roots and embrace an Stalinist way of governance once again.<br /><br />But who to chose? Decisions, decisions! I know who...........<br />http://tinyurl.com/y99kudoMr. Thttp://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j30/kimtassstic/MrT15.jpgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-10798802659118869182010-01-01T12:11:51.925+13:002010-01-01T12:11:51.925+13:00Larry said: "You folks who persist in saying ...Larry said: "You folks who persist in saying that the WWCG "does not follow God anymore" are just clueless. I suggest you refrain from opining on subjects about which you apparently know nothing".<br /><br />MY COMMENT - Agreed! The WWCG does not follow Herbert Armstrong anymore.<br /><br />RichardLake of Fire Church of Godnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-23791283127999542042010-01-01T11:44:52.452+13:002010-01-01T11:44:52.452+13:00Splits and schizmsSplits and schizmsSchits and splizmsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-89070286608700835002010-01-01T11:19:58.120+13:002010-01-01T11:19:58.120+13:00Whew! You would think that the United Church of Go...Whew! You would think that the United Church of God was actually important on some cosmic level, as opposed to being an increasingly inconsequential splinter of a fading movement. It was not founded on any biblical ideal at all—and everyone involved knows it. It was founded on the same ideal as any organized crime family—the ideal being that each don would respect the other’s territory. As long as we don’t filch each other’s flocks, we can claim to be something along the lines of treaty organization. Church? Yeah, there are certainly some things we can share, as long as the split is even. <br /><br />“We would never have allowed this in our former association! We would never allow it in the congregations that we pastor. In what some of our members like to call the “real world” in which they work, such breaches of confidentiality, slander and lack of organizational cohesiveness would be dealt with immediately by appropriate disciplinary action for those responsible.”<br /><br />They sound like a group of escaped SS officers.<br /><br />There is a fundamental difference between a church or a club or a regular game of cards and the ‘real world’—and it’s pretty obvious to those of us in that world. For most of the people involved, church is a voluntary organization. People don’t like it, they go elsewhere. In most churches as small as UCG, the congregations pay the minister and decide how much to kick back to the mother ship. <br /><br />If UCG insists on playing denomination, then they need to do exactly what they are proposing that they not do: Hold another election of board members. Second, going forward, NEVER EVER HOLD ANY CLOSED BUSINESS MEETINGS. All of your problems are now over. <br /><br />The next time I have to correct you, there will be a charge. <br /><br />Mark Lax<br />Pastor General Supreme<br />Of all of Armstrongism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-84072383258707576652010-01-01T10:41:26.883+13:002010-01-01T10:41:26.883+13:00I can't make heads or tails of it, and to be h...I can't make heads or tails of it, and to be honest, can't make myself read the whole thing (someone want to post a synopsis?), but one thing shines: The tried and true Armstrong method of demonizing your opponent as a tool of Satan, no less. <br /><br />First, dish out out some syrupy humble pie, we are all men who make mistakes, we really love each other, we sometimes go astray, blah, blah. <br /><br />Second, blame the general trouble on evil supernatural beings.<br /><br />Third, now that you have in the mind of the reader, associated the "trouble" with evil supernatural beings, blame your opponent with specific actions.<br /><br />Voila! Without ever directly accusing your opponent of being influenced by the devil, the laysheep certainly make the connection. And once the laysheep believe the opposition are influenced by the devil, they will ignore them out of hand. You win! And you come out smelling like roses. <br /><br /><br />The Apostate PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com