tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post5441749284793499496..comments2023-11-05T20:19:44.812+13:00Comments on Ambassador Watch: Privilege and Entitlement in Denial - Tabor & AlexanderGavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger146125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-72936239757138913822016-10-23T03:57:39.338+13:002016-10-23T03:57:39.338+13:00Yes, time to move on. I've been sidelined for ...Yes, time to move on. I've been sidelined for a couple of weeks, but hope to be back on deck soon. Meantime this thread can be closed and nck can take a breather and ponder the virtues of staying on topic.Gavin Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17965552923012880262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-77732477637374350022016-10-23T03:51:08.061+13:002016-10-23T03:51:08.061+13:00Miguel come on,
I said that the summary was excel...Miguel come on,<br /><br />I said that the summary was excellent and stated that the person making the summary might not even agree and at the same time make an excellent summary, that's all.<br /><br />My offer to delete postings was to make room again for NEO's excellent personal contribution.<br /><br />It would be telling if I had deleted but I know some are waiting for that to accuse me of cowardice.<br /><br />Your comment is telling unfortunately and speaks about your character which is of course of no concern to me. What do I care if your personal decisions who is sane and rational work for you. <br /><br />On the other hand I'll give you some slack as you might have missed what I actually said to scroller in between that large amount of postings.<br /><br />ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-44057286954258046992016-10-23T03:29:24.650+13:002016-10-23T03:29:24.650+13:0061 comments by nck. That's got to be some kin...61 comments by nck. That's got to be some kind of record. My critiques would be that in the course of that, he attacks someone who is known to be one of the more sane and rational voices on these blogs. Also, he poses as the all knowing teacher as if presenting priceless gems that some "finally get" so that his work is done and he can remove his posts. Those acts are rather telling. I don't believe I'd want to do Dos Equis with this guy. Clearly, he's not the worlds most exciting man. (See Dos Equis beer commercials for reference)Miguel de la Rodentehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01316579412398751358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-22178633470740653332016-10-23T03:18:48.500+13:002016-10-23T03:18:48.500+13:00And I agree. We need a new topic. This one has b...And I agree. We need a new topic. This one has been squeezed for all its worth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-32348486564784671402016-10-23T03:14:45.610+13:002016-10-23T03:14:45.610+13:00The last great day is on Monday.The last great day is on Monday.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-69003304479359020472016-10-23T01:36:47.553+13:002016-10-23T01:36:47.553+13:00If I'm not mistaken, today is the last day of ...If I'm not mistaken, today is the last day of the Feast. The so-called "Last Great Day". Maybe Gavin will be back soon with a new topic.<br /><br />The Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02327459017793489626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-83600067120154136472016-10-22T20:24:34.635+13:002016-10-22T20:24:34.635+13:00Wow. I was just readin dennis his post on forgiven...Wow. I was just readin dennis his post on forgiveness on banned. In the reactions you can witness the paradox of rampant intollerant protestant conservatism in combination with the use of latest technology produced by capitalism that eroded the foundation of the very values they promote. The paradox of america. Somtimes combined or represented in just one single person. Ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-28560477802904792292016-10-22T19:49:25.444+13:002016-10-22T19:49:25.444+13:00Anyway I am rambling again.
Fast forward.
Hard...Anyway I am rambling again. <br /><br />Fast forward. <br /><br />Harding/ Coolidge (reprenting small town America both extremely incapable but wildly popular)<br /><br />1920 Small town america beats the cities.<br />-Prohibition<br />-1924 restriction of immigration<br />-Rise of KKK<br />-Cultural agression of rising fundamentalism<br /><br />It would be more fun for yourselves to research what realy happened in Chicago during that time when hwa was a business representative.<br />Anyway lets limit to immigration laws.<br /><br />1917 Regulations on immigrants to be able to write and read. Unfortunately and to the surprise of many this did not help since most were able to write and read.<br />Agitation increased with shameless racism. The pureness of the Anglo Saxon race was threatened by Polish, Italian and Jewish immigrants.<br />1924 The national origins act<br />Quta restrictions from certain nations. England, Sweden, Norway and Germany could not even fill those quota. Immigration from Eastern Europe and Southern Europe came to a sudden halt. Asian immigration was restricted completely.<br />1920 KKK profesionalises and became profitable. <br />KKK is at best a local attempt to maintain theh political and cultural status quo. In favor of maintaining traditional patterns and against everything else catholics, jews, blacks and sin in general.<br />4 milion members in its heyday. <br />(Especially Oregon Portland as it lies North West as promised) Read ou resident journalist essays.<br /><br />1920 – fundamentalism<br />Tenessee forbids the teaching of Darwins evolution theory. John Scopes trial.<br /><br />However the Cause of all this change (unbridled capitalism) was unstoppable and in fact lauded by the reactionaries themselves. Far scale erosion of the original populist ideas in the 1920’s led to an embrace of capitalism.<br /><br />This is the cultural paradox of the reactionaries. The very machine that eroded small town morals (capitalism) was embraced by the same.<br /><br />So I might just agree with NEO.<br />KKK, Prohibition, The Scope case might just have been “fair ground attractions” against a large scale revolution of mass production and durable consumer goods.<br />There was a looming danger that teenagers would neck and pet in daddies car. But dad would stilll buy the car on lease.<br /><br />Now what does this have to do with hwa. I don’t know. But it was nice talking to you.<br /><br />nck <br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-3394967759290191642016-10-22T19:48:26.651+13:002016-10-22T19:48:26.651+13:00Reaction 2
Acceptance of the new (Industrializatia...Reaction 2<br />Acceptance of the new (Industrializatian) submitted under the rules of the old regime. Large scale corporation and monopolies should be reduced to smaller units. The one power to do this was the government.<br /><br />Reaction 3<br />Again Idealistic and Utopian. <br />The development of large scale entities should serve the social and cultural values of small scale ideals of the Republic.<br />A fusion of the ideals of Jefferson and Hamilton.<br />Re Edward Bellamy: Looking Backward 1887 sold a stunning 500.000 copies.<br />It tells the story of centralisation for the furtherance of american small town values “The Great Trust” and “The National Party”. It reads like “The wonderful tomorrow what it will be like”. 1887<br />And of course it is the United States that shows the entire world the road to this utopia. (a precursor of rockefeller’s united nations model)<br />Looking Backward gives a fascinating insight in the psychological universe of the protestant movement 1880-1910. The world is a world of order, decency, culturally and socially homogenous.<br /><br />The protestant world/universe encompassed every aspect of society. Sin had become inexistent.<br />Intollerance is present in all three Idealtypes of reaction.<br /><br /><br />1889 spawned 162 Bellamy clubs and inspired “The Nationalist movement.” And merged into the Populist movement. Then moved on to the Progressive movement of Theodore Roosevelt and later Woodrow Wilson of League of Nations fame.<br /><br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-36845785464091353952016-10-22T19:47:11.699+13:002016-10-22T19:47:11.699+13:00NEO
I agree with almost everything in 15:55 except...NEO<br />I agree with almost everything in 15:55 except the 5th paragraph.<br />As a matter of fact if few more valid complaints on the volume will be made I might offer to delete my contributions under the express condition that all of your and scrollers post remain.<br />In this time and on this express subject much time has been devoted to BI and racism. Which is the actual topic at hand.<br />You have alluded many times to “the sons of the confederacy” however.<br />That could serve another topic. I believe it is impossible to understand rcg, hwa without understanding 1880-1933 america. After all we are speaking about a persona born in 1892. <br />You might not like Madonna the singer or any of her songs. But I would use her in 2098 to explain some of your current conditions and beliefs even if you haven’t even heard of this New York girl.<br />Early 1900 was a period of rapid Industrialization.<br />AC was founded in houses of people that became immeasurably wealthy in that time.<br />The vast majority was poor. The new city dwellers felt displaced. Between 1880 and 1914 more than 16 million arrived and lived in squalor. Social conditions in the cities and agricultural areas where a disaster. So there was a paradox here. Reaction: American Federation of Labor 1886, Interstate Commerce Act 1887, Sherman Anti Trust Act 1890.<br />There was also an IDEOLOGICAL reaction from the rural areas. Agriculture versus Industry. The “original” small town America versus the new Industrial and city dwelling America.<br />For many Americans the transition was as difficult and painful as it was for immigrants. The immigrants being politically weak retreated in their ethnically homogeneous neighborhoods. Whereas many “born” Americans resisted fiercely.<br />They believed the power of the republic was rooted in small communities. Small farmers and small town citizens ruling and rooted in some form of protestantism. Every weakness in that system was fought with large scale “revival and tent meetings.” Convert and convert again.<br /><br />Politics was a direct extension of religion. Differences of thought would not only make one a political adversary. One would be a sinner in need of conversion. This culture pattern was enforced with two mytiical themes.<br />=The Frontier Myth (Solidarity among citizens of all classes building a city.)<br />=The Agrarian Myth {thomas jefferson) Small farmers are superior in thought. <br />Reaction 1<br />-A reversal to the old ways. Scapegoat would be the immigrant. Wasn’t everthing downhill since the coming of the small dark haired mediteranean and eastern european type? Stop immigration or wither. Those already here needed to “convert” conform and reeducated. Fear and insecurity was rampant.<br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-67090723155739697322016-10-22T15:55:15.257+13:002016-10-22T15:55:15.257+13:00"NEO in his personal account has not contribu..."NEO in his personal account has not contributed one word to political parties, ideologies or prominent politicians. On the contrary he has focussed largely on recurring and latent thought patterns present among large swaths of people."<br /><br />I backed off because I was having a lot of trouble parsing through some of the ideas presented here. Let me tell you how I see BI in context with every thing else in the world:<br /><br />* I believe that BI is a conspiracy theory. It appeals to people who like conspiracy theories - illuminati, ancient aliens, etc. You find these people scattered throughout the Armstrongist congregations. Hoeh said there was a great conspiracy to hide the identity of true Israel. The Irish monks altered genealogies to conceal the Israelitish identity of the British.<br /><br />* I believe that BI is occult. The validity of this truth may not be known by direct methods. Science, such as genetics, cannot be believed. Knowledge of the identity of Israel is a mystical phenomenon. That is why Armstrongists will discount any evidence that contradicts this special knowledge. Genetics means nothing to them. Genetics is just an attempt by the Dark Side to throw up a smokescreen. <br /><br />* HWA's BI is uncoupled from politics, immigration, intelligence agencies, health food, organic food, the Cold War and Congressional legislation - almost anything you can free associate. Herbert read a book and liked it. It made him feel good about himself. It stroked his ego. So it became "obvious" truth. He wrote his own version of the story and published it. <br /><br />HWA's minions elaborated and extended the doctrine. Racism may have been an unforeseen consequence of the idea. I don't think Herbert set out to purposely become the ecclesiastical equivalent of the Grand Dragon of the Klu Klux Klan. This would be an embarrassment to someone who later was energetically trying to ingratiate himself with world leaders. But this Klankraft outcome is what happened and the WCG became ideologically a part of the Invisible Empire. And Herbert's ideological mantle was passed down to all the myriad splinter groups via men who were more than ready to receive that mantle - sons of the Confederacy - men who believe that Jesus was not a Jew by redefining the meaning of the term Jew. What some of the Armstrongist leaders believe coincides almost point for point with Klan belief. <br /><br />Except for a few thousand people, nobody in the world remotely believes this bogus BI concept. Unfortunately, its limited popularity is interpreted by its followers as an evident sign that they possess special revelation and they are, therefore, special people. Its instantiation within the WCG is really only about Herbert's ravenously hungry ego. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-12606705604547753102016-10-22T07:58:07.388+13:002016-10-22T07:58:07.388+13:00Scroller. I took a little more time to read your s...Scroller. I took a little more time to read your summary. I might just conclude that my work is done. It is even better than i first thought. It looks like my dung (as black opps would likely summarize) produced something edible. You might not even agree with the analysis I recognize that, but your summary at least restores my confidence in my former brothers abilities and therefore by extension my own choices. Perhaps it only took you two minutes. But as leonard cohen spent 2.5 years on hallelujah and asked bob dylan on one of his hits. Bob dylan answered 10 minutes for his hitsong. So time invested would not be a good key performance indicator. But thanks either way. Nck nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-82153405864139418522016-10-22T07:23:33.219+13:002016-10-22T07:23:33.219+13:00It s ok black opps. Everyone can see that your res...It s ok black opps. Everyone can see that your research skills are nill to zero. <br /><br />Why would you suppose did the press make such a fuss about trumps peacefull transfer of power this week? <br /><br />Because the system is rigged toward hillary?<br /><br />No man get real. An entire army or should I say militia is awaiting for a signal to wreak havoc with versions of your irrelevant ideology in their kit. Just as the other guy saw the waco signal and the government called him a traumatized lone wolf. But the oklahoma bombing was entirely ideology driven from compounds. It is not irrelevant. It is a greater threat to american democracy at present than islamism. Ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-84344225378558998392016-10-22T06:27:37.035+13:002016-10-22T06:27:37.035+13:00I am being misrepresented, since I have said nothi...I am being misrepresented, since I have said nothing about how Herbert Armstrong chose Feast sites. In fact, the poster can't even get the avatar right.<br /><br />The poster's comments represent this logic:<br /><br />A=B; B=C; C=D; therefore, J=L and M=Z.<br /><br />If you don't accept this as true, you are a liar. You are wrong 99% of the time. You are also crazy. I give you six URLs to prove that this is true. None of them are relevant. If you check them and call him on it, he will protest that you will find proof at Ivy League Schools (which is rubbish, since it wasn't true in the first place and there is no said proof).<br /><br />British Israelism has always been irrelevant and racist. Except for Herbert Armstrong and his stupid wrong prophecies, no would have paid attention to it except for an odd intellectual academic curiosity. Of course, there is a British Israelism society, but it's not centered in the United States and while some of the Protestant clergy revel in the 'truth' (which it is not), it is basically unseen. As for racist, it promotes Britain (and to a lesser extent the United States) as a chosen people -- lost tribes of Israel, even perhaps greater than the Jews in Palestine. Some of the white separatists are steeped in British Israelism because it promotes their narrow view of race to make whites supreme.<br /><br />British Israelism has quite a long history, even possibly back to Oliver Cromwell in Sixteenth Century, but it is just a crazy idea that some small segment of people may find as a curiosity.<br /><br />BI promotes one race over all the others under the guise that it has God's support. That's ridiculous, of course, but it makes for heady hubris, or if you are English, HuBrits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-54346150114234643402016-10-22T05:20:22.169+13:002016-10-22T05:20:22.169+13:00And to answer Black Opps on his remark about hwa&#...And to answer Black Opps on his remark about hwa's choosing of feast sites.<br />Perhaps for you this choosing was a random act. I am 100% sure hwa did not choose randomly.<br />It is my professional experience that tells me that "association" meant everything to hwa.<br /><br />I answered the following on banned.<br /><br />5:19<br /><br />I see what you mean.<br /><br />For me it is not so hard to imagine where hwa would choose the first feast sites.<br />As an avid news enthusiast and "self styled" reporter on current events he would be very much aware of locations that would be befitting toward his ideology.<br /><br />I would remind you of his 1947 european trip where he decided not to have ambassador college in lugano but liked geneva better for its diplomatic activity and intelectual logistics.<br /><br />ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-46728821174041411782016-10-22T05:02:12.980+13:002016-10-22T05:02:12.980+13:00Sroller,
Perhaps I should just delete all I wrote...Sroller,<br /><br />Perhaps I should just delete all I wrote. Copy and edit your analysis. Send it back for approval and then perhaps have my name in small letters somewhere on the inside of the back cover. I like your summary and can expand privately on that basis.<br /><br />And yes I am certainly trying to bypass "conspiracy." I happen to believe that some people really and truly believe in what they are tought. I am not someone who supposes that hwa "plotted" it all. I feel he really believed what he believed but did not have the talent to manage it all. Of course this was the vaccuum filled by Stanley Rader. But that is another subject. To believe that hwa plotted it all cunningly that would be in the realm of conspiracy thinking. I am more practical and relate my experience in the fold to my experience with those in the boardroom. And actually my experience is, and please keep it a secret for the masses, for they might revolt, that the people in the boardroom many times don't know..... That's why they go and talk in Davos. To learn from equals and get input from well......think tanks.. be it ideologically driven or not.<br /><br />nck<br /><br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-60169064810317292852016-10-22T04:46:22.385+13:002016-10-22T04:46:22.385+13:00That is exactly my point.
What do the ordinary pe...<br />That is exactly my point.<br /><br />What do the ordinary people need to know really on how things came to be?<br /><br />Speaking about the thirties my point is indeed based on a very small minority and I pointed at Yale. As a matter of fact some families have been around from the time China was enslaved by opium until present presidential canditates. The same families but different and modern outlook on life. Of course it is not the strongest that survives. It is the most adaptable.<br /><br />So yes BI served its purpose in its time. And now there is something new. <br /><br />Even Christianity was introduced in the empire for that very reason. Or do you suppose emperor Constantine was a devout Christian himself. No of course not. But the people need direction. And marketeers are to provide that direction. And leaders should point the way of course.<br /><br />Speaking about Israel.<br />I believe a number of interesting main stream books have been written on how it came to be that the entire American bible belt believes what I just said. That thousands of evangelicals celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles some flocking to Jerusalem and many never heard of armstrongism.<br /><br />How it came to be that there is a not be broken tie between the heartland and Israel while there is absolutely NO strategic reason to protect that nation. (and this is from neo conservative source)<br /><br />How did the vast majority of the american heartland come to believe that?<br />That is not an accident or by circumstance. This has been a massive lobby that has turned a jew hating christian heartland into one almost identifing with Israel. <br /><br />I am not against it at all. I am not attacking it. I am merely making a point that what you call "the vast number" are usually not aware of what they think and why they think this and how that came to be. <br /><br />Man I start sounding like Herbert Armstrong himself. Perhaps because just like him in his early days I have in common with him that we sit/sat in boardrooms and decide on what the people are going to think next about the new product months ahead before the people know what they are going to like.<br /><br />And you are well aware that this goes for ideology and politics aswell. And yes ideology that worked in the past might just not work in 2016.<br /><br />Therefore a subject like this has no place on the blogs attacking the splinters. For they are lost in ideologies past. But a discussion like this might just evolve on a blog where people are supposed to have one more brain cell and know something about how the board works. It is not about individual people. At the most about categories or segments.<br /><br />ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-90857833776598845542016-10-22T04:44:15.670+13:002016-10-22T04:44:15.670+13:00Miguel,
I would not argue one point of what you s...Miguel,<br /><br />I would not argue one point of what you said.<br /><br />-The ordinary person in WWII would have enlisted for all the good reasons like fighting for freedom, liberating the oppressed etc etc. That is all true and actually very commendable.<br />Who would have bothered with the larger strategic concepts at stake. Like markets for american products. Not the average person in the here and now (1942)<br /><br />-The average person in todays election is concerned for a job and some fun in life. I was not mocking those concerns when I stated that the wealth of the average american is being transferred to other nations as the new equilibrium. That today billions of people profit from the same pie that used to profit the few. And yes 300 million is just a few on a global scale. <br /><br />So yes it is hard on many to close the steel mills and the coal mines etc etc. But my analysis does not concern "the average" person in the here and now when I speak about the billions. It is not stealing of american wealth. It is a reshuffle to a new order.<br /><br />-Of course it loomed on you. In the seventies there even was a Southern President elected stemming from the farming south who based his entire foreign policy on "christian morality." The next president was even stranger in his apocalyptic predictions that brought the soviet union to its knees knowing that this was a man who would not yield as he was driven by linear thinking that the world would end....<br /><br />The vast number of average persons living today and now would believe Santa Clause has been around since the birth of Christ. Who would want to know that "we" invented the guy in 1930 for the exact purpose of selling a brown sugary drink.<br /><br />NEO in his personal account has not contributed one word to political parties, ideologies or prominent politicians. On the contrary he has focussed largely on recurring and latent thought patterns present among large swaths of people.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-23833977126700165362016-10-22T04:22:49.592+13:002016-10-22T04:22:49.592+13:00One person over at Banned! seems to have his numbe...One person over at Banned! seems to have his number:<br /><br />Anonymous said...<br />nck,<br /><br />If we want to make some random associations, consider that Jerry Falwell Jr.'s office is in the former home of Carter Glass who spent much time writing bills there, including as congressman the Glass-Owen Act of 1913 and as senator the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.<br /><br />-----<br /><br />And that's just it -- random, irrelevant associations, some of which have extremely dubious provenance. <br /><br />It would be unwise to try to follow the supposed reasoning and logic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-28431123267586350462016-10-22T04:16:40.183+13:002016-10-22T04:16:40.183+13:00nck, I see that you are giving a picture of a wide...nck, I see that you are giving a picture of a wider cultural studies context to the hwa/british-israelism phenomenon in America, arguing that it is just one variant of a larger self-understanding of white Protestants running America and the British Empire, a sense of being divinely chosen and entitled due to being Israel. I see that your point is this wider ideology combining race (whiteness) and religion (Protestant Christianity) and imperial power (British Empire and America). <br /><br />And true enough, the pilgrims, the Puritans, the Protestant colonists of America did have ideas of being Israel metaphorically with british-Israelism belief being a sort of literalism or subset of the wider belief.<br /><br />One significant exception--I think--however: the Quakers, who at their height in 1700s colonial America I believe were about the second most prominent religious identity of whites in North America next to Puritans. But Puritans--dissident English Protestants with theocratic notions that they were the "one true church" implemented in civil government-- became dominant, the "center" of white American identity, and Quakers lost both political power and numbers. Quakers founding Pennsylvania had an almost eschatological sense of the colony being "a peaceable kingdom", "a holy experiment", and such. And yet I do not think Quakers spoke the language or self-understanding of claiming themselves or their colony was "Israel" metaphorically or literally. Quakers also were not part of the genocides of Native Americans and were notable for having bought the land and paid for it by peaceful treaties and having good relations with Native Americans. <br /><br />OK nck, you're expanded my thinking a bit. In the sense of cultural history and context, in which British-Israelism is part of a larger tapestry of the whole ideology of "Israel"/Puritanism/noble British Empire/"white man's burden"/Manifest Destiny/Protestant white entitlement and supremacy to land, natural resources, and military power ... OK, that is a real analysis, that rings true. The argument being that hwa/british-Israelism was a variant manifestation of a larger context, in a variant gargoyle-like form, but of a larger context. And that focusing solely on hwa/british-Israelism as if it occurred in a vacuum that happened on its own misses the larger context, a larger context that is part of history that should be looked at more reflectively. <br /><br />I am trying to paraphrase in a way that bypasses notions of conspiracy theory and understands this instead as cultural history, analogous to Edward Baptist's "The Half Has Never Been Told" as well as other books bringing out things on American slavery that are factual and stunning but not well known, "the half never told". This is in the genre of ignored history that is not secret except that it is little known or recognized, lost to cultural memory, deep-sixed in national consciousness, "the half never told".<br /><br />GregDScrollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07423946480322218881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-90693984554726564422016-10-22T03:33:54.327+13:002016-10-22T03:33:54.327+13:00NCK, the vast number of people alive today live in...NCK, the vast number of people alive today live in the here and now. Their reasons for believing what they believe are rooted in the present, not some long forgotten philosophies or ideologies of the 18th or 19th centuries. That would be like Armstrongism, which attributed everything they didn't like to Babylonian paganism. That is not to say that there were not influences. Probably the greatest example of influences would be twentieth century attitudes in the American Southeast, which were still very much influenced by the Civil War. And those attitudes were so widespread and pervasive that they would have been difficult to deny. We from the North had studied the Civil War in history classes, but it did not loom on a daily basis for us as the huge and influential event that it did for our counterparts growing up in the South. <br /><br />Had I never heard of Armstrongism, there was nothing in my surroundings, education, or daily experiences which would have made me conscious of that. Manifest Destiny, yes. Protestant influences on the founding, yes. The wide group of white minorities, and the African slaves and Native Americans present during the foundational years of our country, yes. But nothing learned from school or family about the US being a new, modern day incarnation of Israel. In fact, if anything, Israel was associated with Jews. Although the allies rescued massive numbers of Jews during WW-II, there was much anti-Jewish prejudice in the US. That is not to say that maybe some prominent politicians didn't know about BI, or were not influenced by it, but it was not overt and pervasive. At best, it was a viewpoint held by a very small minority.Miguel de la Rodentehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01316579412398751358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-43123025730892618732016-10-22T00:21:01.570+13:002016-10-22T00:21:01.570+13:00btw I am in no way against whites or something. Bu...btw I am in no way against whites or something. But I share with NEO and other commenters that a lot of people wouldn't even recognize their prejudice if it was explained to them since it is ingrained or has become part of a culture that due to multiple reasons has become wildly succesful in its execution. That is indeed a great feat. But now that a natural economic equilibrium seems to be restored and power shifts back to the natural leader China a lot of people become confused and vote for the one that promises to bring american coal back to production.<br /><br />Wow. From the Great Armada to American Coal production.<br />As Miquel de Rodente said. Please only respond to that that you might find most interesting or peculiar. I might go into more detail on that particular subject. Usually I have no feed back loop in what might be considered "interesting" only in what some consider lunacy. Usually that what people consider lunacy in what I say is based on the highest of learning and what they consider fact or truth is when I am joking or being sarcastic. <br /><br />ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-78511224827988107602016-10-22T00:20:45.864+13:002016-10-22T00:20:45.864+13:00Scroller,
Your 20:54 summary is quite good. I hav...Scroller,<br /><br />Your 20:54 summary is quite good. I have no trouble with you summarizing in the way you did.<br /><br />-I like for instance that you are able to view BI as an ideology instead of a "bible based doctrine".<br /><br />-Ideologies are used and abused for political purposes. Just in the sense that ISIL has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. It is a political ideology. Or perhaps Zionism which is a political ideology which at one time was inseparable from the racial "pure" Jews. So it becomes confused what is "race", what is "religion" and what part is "political ideology."<br /><br />-Do you hold the position that the Spanish Inquisition in the 1500 murdered "millions" or at least hundreds of thousands of protestants and burned them at the stake? <br />Latest studies confirm that it did not come close to a tenth or perhaps a 5th of that number. <br /><br />Albeit I am not catholic at all I am a student of propaganda and these inflated numbers are a direct result of the extreme success of the propaganda of the protestant cause. And the printing press which was freely available in these nations.<br /><br />Now why would I shift the conversation to 1500 protestantism?<br />Your citing of 19th century BI makes it clear to me that you have not been in contact with the origins of the "ideology" identification of protestants with "the people of Israel."<br /><br />When you read 16th century printed propaganda in the form of sermons or songs or pamphlets it becomes pretty clear that the protestant Dukes are likened to Moses who is leading his people out of Egyptian idolatry. That the protestants are lead of the "whoredom" of the Holy Roman Empire like the people of Israel. That it is Gods deliverance of the protestants that caused the Spanish Armada to flee. (a still repeated argument by armstrongist to this day). In the 19th century the british propagandists make it clear that it is Jesus who walked the green pastures of England. That London is the New Jerusalem. That it is the Welsh troops at Isandwandla and Rourkes Drift that "walk this barren land." That is the British and Dutch Tribes settling South Africa. etc etc etc Sorry for my sudden shift from 1500 to 1900. But you get the drift.<br /><br />So my point is we are looking at an ideology of the white man that was rampant until 1990 in the country clubs of Georgia. And I am not talking blacks no Jews with billions of dollars on their accounts could not get into the country club. It was not economic, nor social, nor religious it was ideology what prohibited the membership.<br /><br />Now it will go to far in how this ideology shaped the State Department that consisted for a large part of Yale alumni. But it was pretty clear that the great Cold War warrior Ronald Reagan was conducting a battle not against a defunct economic state but against an EVIL empire. That is not rational. That is ideology driven. And hwa did everything possible to show his respect for Ronald Reagan in personally picking his pictures for the PT.<br /><br />Both Reagan and HWA were great believers in the linearity of history. That history had a beginning and would have an end as predicted in the bible. The Soviets were very much aware that Ronald Reagan was on a sacred mission a mission he shared with that other world leader that like him felt that they were delivered from death for a cause after being shot at work.<br /><br />Now as you can see. My writing in this post has not been coherent AT ALL. Mostly due to my fast typing and limited time.<br />I hope that at least you can see that I am in no way attacking you perhaps only adding different insight. But that my view stems from a wider view than just 19th century BI.<br /><br />And yes BI is in no way the leading ideology that shaped the USA. It is one of many. Like masonry. But to insert masonry in the discussion now would be completely distracting and open a can of worms where I would have BB accusing me of conspiracy again and I would be "fighting" a battle on 2 fronts. (since you bring up Dr Reah (not martin).<br /><br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-78940697519400367192016-10-21T20:54:25.940+13:002016-10-21T20:54:25.940+13:00nck, yes there was prejudice against Italian immig...nck, yes there was prejudice against Italian immigrants and Catholics earlier in American history but my illustration was meant now when that is basically past history. You bring out that earlier American immigration policy favored Protestants not Catholics, and you observe that that roughly correlates to hwa/wcg's parameters of definition of "Israel" (as the Protestant part of Europe). From what I pick up you suggest hwa's british-israelism in agreement with that correlation was in some sense being used as or an instrument of American State Dept. policy. <br /><br />I have not heard that argument before. I can't see it. I think the definition of which lands were "Israel" in the hwa/wcg/hoeh system and the immigration preference for Protestant European immigrants is coincidence. Germany was considered Israel by british-Israelites in the 19th century but lost their Israelite status when Britain went to war with Germany in WW1. Or rather, some 19th century British-Israelites thought Germany was Israel whereas the Assyria identity also was floated by other british-Israelites 19th century, but with ww1 Germany basically lost its claim to be Israelite in british-Israelites' eyes. I don't know how Italy was regarded by 19th century British-israelites--a detail which could be researched--but the wcg had Italy as Chaldeans from Ham based on a paper by Ernest Martin. (From my memory, Martin argued that Italians are numerically more from Roman slaves than Romans, and that the Roman slaves were Babylonians or Chaldeans from Ham, was the gist of the argument.) One possibility is Italy's being part of the Axis with Germany, at war with Britain/U.S., is what could have caused them to become or become confirmed as "gentiles" in the wcg world of british-Israelism.<br /><br />In any case as discussed before I know of no evidence that WCG/HWA was wittingly being used by anyone, nor evidence that any state agency was directly using HWA/RCG unwittingly, in the early decades of hwa's work. The similarity between israel-identity nations and America's immigration policy preferences is not enough, since both have separate histories and causes. I think HWA's success with his form of British-Israelism mixed with end of the age prophecy was an historical accident, a symptom of the times, and not an operation planned by anyone other than HWA. There were others running around with british-Israel ideas in Church of God 7Day circles but HWA happened to be the one who succeeded with it in a big way.Scrollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07423946480322218881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-79176664104022846432016-10-21T18:45:02.087+13:002016-10-21T18:45:02.087+13:00Scroller,
I can see you have not investigated fur...Scroller,<br /><br />I can see you have not investigated further on my hint on the italians and the changing of immigration laws from the 1900-1924. And the express limitation of the numbers of Sicilians. I would ask Frank Sinatra on his experience in Hoboken.<br /><br />There was widespread bias against catholic influx at that time.<br /><br />Just as in the 1500's the Ottoman Pasha was a lauded ally, friend and trading partner of the Protestant nations (Sweden, England, Northern Germany, The Dutch Republic, against the vile "whore of Rome" which would be the Holy Roman Empire.<br /><br />I was visiting Nuwara Eliya in Sri Lanka a couple of years ago to see what happened to the AICF project. (It's a school again.) We had to watch for militant Buddhist along the way. Who would have thought?<br /><br />Well as I speak the Russian Baltic Fleet is crossing the North Sea in an attempt to reach the Mediteranean by next week. Nato fleet is closely monitoring the fleet that is about to destroy the Islamists at Aleppo and "Dabiq" which is the place where the Mahdi army would fight the infidels. Well they stand no change. The Russians could beat the crap out of them from the British Channel. But that would of course cause offence to the Anglo Saxon world rulers.<br /><br />ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.com