tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post2276619651340423800..comments2023-11-05T20:19:44.812+13:00Comments on Ambassador Watch: Confronting Racist HooeyGavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger144125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-71650039824971522712008-04-06T23:51:00.000+12:002008-04-06T23:51:00.000+12:00OOPPSS I think I accidentally deleted from my last...OOPPSS I think I accidentally deleted from my last post..it was my husband Jim that I was talking to...<BR/><BR/>SueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-21240070437454444512008-04-06T23:48:00.000+12:002008-04-06T23:48:00.000+12:00I do have to add one thing to my last post. Withou...I do have to add one thing to my last post. Without telling him anything about this thread on AW I asked him if he had ever heard anyone say anything in WCG to the effect that Native Americans should have been exterminiated. He said yes he had. But he said not in the local area or from a local pastor. And then he added that he thought it came from Dr. Hoeh and the Compendium. Then he added that it came from the idea that because the Israelites were to kill the Canaanites, so the "modern day Israelites" should have done the same. I then told him about this thread on AW. Of course he doesn't agree with this, but since I had never heard it, I was surprised when he had!!<BR/>So even though I did believe Neotherm, I really have no doubt since Jim said the same thing without even knowing why I was asking him about it.<BR/><BR/>Just glad to be away from those disgusting attitudes!!<BR/><BR/>SueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-51717170442550303682008-04-05T07:00:00.000+13:002008-04-05T07:00:00.000+13:00Neotherm stated:"But there is a notable difference...Neotherm stated:<BR/><BR/>"But there is a notable difference. Armstrongites advocate that the following people should be entirely exterminated:<BR/><BR/>North American Indians<BR/>Inuit<BR/>Lapplanders<BR/>Australian Aborigines<BR/>Maoris<BR/>South African Blacks<BR/>Polynesians<BR/><BR/>In short, any people who occupied the land before the arrival of so-called "Israelites". <BR/><BR/>Advocacy of genocide is an alarming position for any church to take and greatly differentiates the Armstrongite churches from just run-of-the-mill racist churches.<BR/><BR/>Would the Texas State Government, if they knew that the UCG advocated genocide, permit them to move into the State of Texas, as they currently plan to do?<BR/><BR/>Would any State have them?<BR/>Would Ohio permit them to continue to function?"<BR/><BR/>I have found this tread interesting and I did read all of Neotherm's correspondence with HH. To me, Neotherm's letters were very "authentic" and he spoke from the heart about his experiences. And I believe he is honest about his experiences. HH was well known for his evasive answers. When the changes in WCg began to happen, no one knew where HH stood on the issues...not even at the time of his death, so it is no wonder he was evasive about this stuff also. <BR/><BR/>Having been in the WCG from 1965-1995, I do know of racist attitudes. I can only draw from my own experiences. As a teen I had a black friend in the WCG. Of course at activities, like dances, blacks could only dance with blacks and whites with whites. My friend was allowed to come to my house for a day activity, but not allowed to stay overnight. This was not my parent's rule, but the pastor's, although my parent's abided by it. It was upsetting to me at the time, and still is when I think about it. <BR/><BR/>My ancestry contains some Native American...but a small percentage. My maternal grandmother looked very NA...and it was she who was part NA. I also have Irish, English, German...and just recently in looking over a lengthy geneology my dad has done...apparently also some Spanish and French.<BR/><BR/>Our first FOT was in Jekyll Island, GA. One racist thing happened that I recall...we were camping that year and found the designated camp grounds. We set up camp. Along came a police car and the officer told my dad we had to move. Dad of course asked why...he informed us we had to leave because we were in the black campground!! So we moved to the white campground. <BR/><BR/>On the way home from the Feast we went to services somewhere in the South...not sure what state....probably Carolinas. the congregation was a mixture of blacks and whites. We were told not to intermix outside the building. Inside was OK...there was no segregation that I could tell. The reason we were told was because the KKK was active in the area and it was to avoid any problems from them with the local members. If there was more to it than that, we were not told.<BR/><BR/>Of course I am well aware of the interracial marriage rules in WCG and I do consider that a racist issue. That should be decided by the couple marrying. Period.<BR/><BR/>I have to say, in the 30 years in WCG and then 10 in UCG...I never heard the stuff about that Native Americans should have been exterminated. But I do not doubt that Neotherm in fact endured what he says that he endured. Could it be that this degree of hatred only existed in some circles in WCG? <BR/><BR/>I do have to take exception with Neotherm in some of the above however. <BR/><BR/>I never heard in UCG that any of the above mentioned groups, or any other groups for that matter should be exterminated. And I knew fairly well some of the head haunchos in UCG, and never heard anything like that. And I do not know of ANY members who ever said anything like that. Also, I think Neotherm might be surprised who some of the head haunchos of UCG children are married to...yes different races...and I mean black and white. Like I said that should be up to the individuals involved and no one else. So hopefully, some of the very, very top guys in UCG are not advocating genocide of these races, or any mixed children (their grand children).<BR/><BR/>Having said that...I will relay one incident of a local UCG member who was quite racist. This fellow was and is a hot tempered guy. At a dinner with several couples a few years ago this issue came up...I believe because of some of the interracial marriages going on. He bacame quite animated and stated that if his son married a black woman, he would disown him and if they had children, they would not be acknowledged as his grandchildren by him. We were all shocked and said things like, oh, you can't mean that...but he was quite firm...he said he would never see his own grandchildren if they were half black. Well, his son did go on to have an out of wedlock child, but that did not seem to be a problem...well, at least after he admitted after some months, that he had a grandchild.<BR/>But this guy is known for his rants on a variety of subjects, so you get the picture. His wife sat in embarrassed silence as she often does when he does one of his rants. <BR/><BR/>Also, one time an elder & wife who were outraged that a black fellow sat too close to a white girl at a YOU activity....and it wasn't the fact that they were sitting too close, but the race thing was the big issue.<BR/><BR/>Part of the reason we left UCG...because these were the people that the pastor seemed to hold up in esteem...and also by some in the hierarchy. As well as a whole string of other reasons.<BR/><BR/>So as in all other issues, I don' think a broad brush can be painted with to put everyone in this group or that group into a racist or nonracist category. I think there were racists in WCG...including some at the top, but I also think there were those who were not racist.<BR/><BR/>SueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-74505724262773888472008-03-22T05:09:00.000+13:002008-03-22T05:09:00.000+13:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lussenheidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07497063495672247362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-10895565831945316932008-03-22T04:58:00.000+13:002008-03-22T04:58:00.000+13:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lussenheidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07497063495672247362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-89169776183205186382008-03-16T21:13:00.000+13:002008-03-16T21:13:00.000+13:00Many thanks for posting that most informative link...Many thanks for posting that most informative link! It's really helpful.<BR/><BR/>On the other side of the "Pond", I imagine both state and federal laws are involved. Is the situation "better" in some states than in others? Or is every US citizen basically in the same boat?The Third Witnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07215930025342828429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-50546674913946389982008-03-16T11:03:00.000+13:002008-03-16T11:03:00.000+13:00UK law on religious discrimination is now forged i...UK law on religious discrimination is now forged in the EU. Try the following:<BR/><BR/>http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/dvsequl/relgdisc/relgdisc.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-80982042810440728652008-03-16T09:29:00.000+13:002008-03-16T09:29:00.000+13:00On the "time off for holy days" issue (which must ...On the "time off for holy days" issue (which must strike a chord with many of us), I just saw <A HREF="http://edition.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/worklife/03/10/religion.at.the.office/index.html/" REL="nofollow">this item on CNN.com</A>.<BR/><BR/>I remember a WN article (late 70s?) about the lack of legal protection for US church members wanting time off work to keep the Sabbath at that time. A member in the UK (by the way, <B>Greetings, Tom!</B> it was Cliff Marsh – do you remember him, by any chance?) wrote a letter in response (which was published in the WN), pointing out that in Britain there was even less legal protection in the field of religion at that time but that, nevertheless, in every case he personally knew of, those who lost their job over keeping the Sabbath "ALWAYS" [emphasis his] found a better job afterwards. Fast-forward to today and it's interesting how people's general approach has changed since then.<BR/><BR/>Like Gavin, I strongly agree that a good employer will try to accommodate a good employee in cases like this, and I'm also curious to know what sort of legal rights there are in the US (and, indeed, in the UK) these days, as I'm way out of touch with the situation in both jurisdictions. Anybody up to speed on this who'd care to comment?The Third Witnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07215930025342828429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-62612891496031372202008-03-13T23:12:00.000+13:002008-03-13T23:12:00.000+13:00The irony is that the WCG in Cape Town were pionee...The irony is that the WCG in Cape Town were pioneers in social interracial mixing, compared to other WCG churches in the country. The quality of our mixing - friendships, ease of mixing, etc., I found to be superior to other mixed situations in the country - churches, universities, etc., where the warmth we in WCG had for each other was not evident. The apartheid laws let WCG off the hook in South Africa on some of the stuff that Neotherm was subject to. In the WCG Regional Office, non-white staff were paid less than white staff, because the latter's living expenses were higher (same justification for my father - "coloured" - being paid half the salary of a white teacher).<BR/><BR/>Craig White from Australia, firm devotee of HWA, reports on oconversation with Hoeh, which leaves no doubt that he still believed in "Old Covenant" doctrines, and that he didn't buy into the pretentious and illogical dross dished up by Joey and friends.Henrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18363791530373678652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-46503463571413022492008-03-13T17:07:00.000+13:002008-03-13T17:07:00.000+13:00"Bob", why is it I have this wild suspicion you're..."Bob", why is it I have this wild suspicion you're white? Never mind, just a wild guess. <BR/><BR/>You write: "Racism? On whose terms?"<BR/><BR/>Uh, maybe blacks? native Americans? hispanics? US courts? Dictionary definition?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps total exclusion of blacks from Imperial Schools, and from Ambassador College Bricket Wood, for decades simply because of the color of their skin and no other reason, in keeping with articles by Herbert Armstrong and Hoeh, doesn't qualify as racism to you.<BR/><BR/>Could it be that's because you are white and not black or native american?<BR/><BR/>"Who May Attend Our Schools?", H.L. Hoeh, Good News, March 1958.<BR/><BR/>"Because Abraham was the first to be willing to give up fellowship with the world, God has made it possible [at Imperial Schools] for his [Abraham's] fleshly children to be the first to enjoy a fuller social fellowship with one another in the church ... that is why God has guided His Church to commence its Grade and High Schools for the children of racial Israelites FIRST....<BR/><BR/>"[C]onverted Israelites (who are Semitic) may intermarry with converted Semitic Germans, West Slavs, Armenians and Syrians (who are all sons of Shem), and with non-Semitic Whites such as Russians (who are from Meshech, Tubal and Madai--the sons of Japheth) and Greeks (who are of Javan, the son of Japheth) and Italians (who are of Javan and of the Tyrians from Sidon, the son of Canaan). These are all of the White racial stock (though they may have come from different sons of Noah) and are permitted to attend Ambassador College and the present Imperial Grade and High Schools....<BR/><BR/>"Because our Latin American brethren are not basically of the same race as Israelites, they will have to solve the problem of schooling for their children in the same manner as do most of our Israelite brethren who are not attending our schools..."<BR/><BR/>[i.e. no Imperial Schools for your kids, wrong race, sorry]<BR/><BR/>Does exclusion of Hispanic and black children from an all-white Imperial Schools seem right to you? <BR/><BR/>I have never known a black WCG member from those days, no matter how otherwise faithful and believing, who did not see the WCG of that era as racist or, as one euphemistically phrased it to me, as having "had some issues". Have you? Even Tom Mahon, an almost lonely voice on this list otherwise defending HWA and the old WCG with great passion, doesn't deny that HWA and WCG were racist. He says (and I believe him--however much I disagree with him in other areas I do not doubt his courage) that if he were there in those days he would have opposed it. <BR/><BR/>Did you ever oppose it when you were there? Not your problem, eh? Excluding blacks and hispanics just peachy to you? Out of sight, out of mind? <BR/><BR/>I agree Hoeh was a gentleman and a nice person. That, however, is not the issue here.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to condemn "Neotherm" if you haven't walked in his shoes. A lot of God's children were needlessly and stupidly hurt by these policies and attitudes. It is one thing where there is true repentance and attempt to repair what is broken. Some have, and I look for a world in which there will be full healing of all hurts and wounds. Others remain in denial and, as in your case, engage in name-calling directed at those who were hurt.<BR/><BR/>GregDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-53300640423554439882008-03-13T15:34:00.000+13:002008-03-13T15:34:00.000+13:00Confronting Racist Hooey,is just that, a bunch of ...Confronting Racist Hooey,is just that, a bunch of hooey by disgruntled folks, in most cases, who can't take responsibility for themselves.<BR/><BR/>I knew Dr. Hoeh for years. Had many hours with him in and out of class.<BR/><BR/>Virtually none of what is said here about him in this distorted negative way is accurate. Mostly it is fantasy from minds looking for an excuse for their own failings.<BR/><BR/>Racism? On whose terms? I spent most of my youth overseas and knew nothing about racism in America until after I went to college. Where I discovered it was in a bus trip across country, not at AC.<BR/><BR/>It seems that those who already have a bent toward racism are the ones who see racism in the teachings of the wcg.<BR/><BR/>The distortions about separate churches, etc. are based on an assumption and not the reason that there were in some cities separate churches.<BR/><BR/>Now, on the positive side Dr. Hoeh was more than a gentleman, and kind beyond belief compared to the drivel posted about him on this site.<BR/><BR/>I find that the more I read here the more I question the negatives about the people I knew and see the negatives in the people here who criticize while still in a childish mind.<BR/><BR/>Clovis points? Big deal. Dr. Hoeh knew when to answer a challenge and when not to. He knew it wouldn't make a difference to someone already set in mind, so he didn't waste his time arguing.<BR/><BR/>BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-74761450176930416362008-03-13T08:51:00.000+13:002008-03-13T08:51:00.000+13:00I believe there are reasons to suggest that accord...I believe there are reasons to suggest that according to genetics all of us are descended from a single 'mid-brown' family - 'Adam'. (It's unlikely evolution produced two identical families.) All genetic traits were in that family, and as their progeny dispersed sub-groups produced racial characteristics - including skin colour, determined by how much or how little melanin was in each, from ebony to albino. Any geneticists out there?<BR/><BR/>So no excuse for prejudice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-70290083371953234992008-03-13T04:22:00.000+13:002008-03-13T04:22:00.000+13:00"I laid a silver half dollar on the dresser. ‘Do y..."I laid a silver half dollar on the dresser. ‘Do you see that<BR/>half dollar, son?’ I asked. ‘Yes, Sir!’ he answered, eyes sparkling in anticipation."<BR/><BR/>Jesus save us! Garner Ted has risen from the grave and he's posting on AW!!<BR/><BR/><BR/>PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-91590247601654847012008-03-13T03:51:00.000+13:002008-03-13T03:51:00.000+13:00"So, why, going well into the 1970s did we have L...."So, why, going well into the 1970s did we have L.A #1, L.A #2, and L.A #3 churches? And, if you guessed the ethnic makeup of these churches, you'd probably be right."<BR/><BR/>BB, you're so right; it wasn't just segregated seating in southern congregations up until about 1970, it was the fact that in metropolitan areas where there were plenty of church members, congregations were established by "race". I remember that there was an African-American congregation in the Chicago area, for instance. Thanks for reminding me about the segregation of L.A. churches.camfinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15687305972492937862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-2175974224313722422008-03-12T18:01:00.000+13:002008-03-12T18:01:00.000+13:00Old habits are hard to break...At the Hotel Patton...Old habits are hard to break...<BR/><BR/>At the Hotel Patton in Chattanooga, Tennessee, I called a bellboy to my room. In those days the customary tip was a dime. A half dollar then had about the same effect<BR/>that a $20 bill would have today. I laid a silver half dollar on the dresser. ‘Do you see that<BR/>half dollar, son?’ I asked. ‘Yes, Sir!’ he answered, eyes sparkling in anticipation. After ascertaining that he would be still on duty at 6:30 next morning, I said, ‘If you will pound on that door in the morning at 6:30, until I let you in, and then stay in this room and prevent me from getting back into bed until I am dressed, then you may have that half dollar.’<BR/><BR/>I found those bellboys would, for a half dollar tip, even wrestle or fight with me to prevent my crawling back into bed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-54194675349206982392008-03-12T17:55:00.000+13:002008-03-12T17:55:00.000+13:00All of the pros and cons, the possible rationales,...All of the pros and cons, the possible rationales, and the outright excuses made for HWA/WCG fall flat when we remember one bit of history. Los Angeles had never been part of the Confederacy (and, please, everybody, not all Rebels are Racist). I can assure everyone that virtually nobody outside of a handful of hate groups in the greater Los Angeles area would have objected to mixed seating in WCG sabbath services. Frankly, these were closed to the general public in the first place.<BR/><BR/>So, why, going well into the 1970s did we have L.A #1, L.A #2, and L.A #3 churches? And, if you guessed the ethnic makeup of these churches, you'd probably be right. <BR/><BR/>Later on in the decade, some of the top ministers were heard to remark, "Oh, well, we just kind of assumed you people would want your own church congregations!"<BR/><BR/>BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963860939122842077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-10085310052696419362008-03-12T16:12:00.000+13:002008-03-12T16:12:00.000+13:00"The speech went down well, there were no adverse ..."The speech went down well, there were no adverse comments. Neither were there any follow-up comments from the ministry after the event. This was in England, so I don’t know what would have happened in southern USA."<BR/><BR/>In the "Old South", the issue wasn't about Native Americans, it was about African-Americans. And by the late 70's, even that would not have been so much of an issue, proclaimeth I, who might be a bit naive on the subject. The extremely disturbing information from Neotherm and others about ministers openly saying that Native Americans should have been extinguished lays a layer of bricks on Armstrongist ideology that seems to kill whatever life could conceivably remain in that system. <BR/><BR/>I can never recall hearing such teachings in my time at college and in the church. Yes, I heard mild racism (and maybe, were I not Caucasian, the racism would've seemed more than "mild"), but not the advocating of genocide in the cause of opening lands for "Israelites". <BR/><BR/>To give some credit where credit is due: the pastor in Greensboro in the late 60's to early 70's was Roger Foster (who I believe is now a UCG minister). I distinctly remember him giving a strong warning against anyone in the congregation who would advocate a "rebellious" attitude of yearning for the old Confederacy. While my own opinions these days about the desirability of secession from the larger nation tends to favor such action (under certain rules), I took his meaning really to be that any white people in the congregation should be on notice that racism was ungodly and had no place in the church. Because "pro-Confederacy" was a code-term for "racist". <BR/><BR/>I have to give him that one.camfinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15687305972492937862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-62461913319801500152008-03-12T16:07:00.000+13:002008-03-12T16:07:00.000+13:00Dennis: An interesting part of Indian history is t...Dennis: <BR/><BR/>An interesting part of Indian history is the ghost dance movement in the Northern Plains. The Sioux and some other tribes became convinced that Christ was going to return and save them. They believed the Messiah was going to come and restore the earth to a pristine state. <BR/><BR/>The ghost dance referred not to something creepy at all but was a reference to resurrected Indians. The term ghost could better be rendered "spirit". They believed the Messiah would resurrect their dead ancestors and relatives. The dance was meant to represent these resurrected Indians. <BR/><BR/>The plains Indians had hit the end of their rope and in desperation looked to Christ. I recall reading that a Government official told the US Cavalry that there was no more reason to attack these Indians than to attack the Seventh Day Adventists. This fell on deaf ears and the ghost dance movement was crushed and many Indians were killed or subjugated. <BR/><BR/>Putting all these ideas together in my mind, I can envision desperate Indians, faced with extermination, appealing to Christ to save them and devout Armstrongists standing on the side lines applauding at their destruction. It makes a bizarre but conceptually accurate picture.<BR/><BR/>-- NeoNeothermhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546163563669263135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-17830110334458614942008-03-12T15:12:00.000+13:002008-03-12T15:12:00.000+13:00"No doubt there are files kept by the old Church A..."No doubt there are files kept by the old Church Administration Department that would be revealing if anyone could access them. I know that difficult racial decisions were referred to the CAD."<BR/><BR/>The WCG's version of the Stasi files? You just know Junior had minions shredding them even as they were lowering Senior into the ground.........Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-41645877078089163832008-03-12T14:24:00.000+13:002008-03-12T14:24:00.000+13:00"Everywhere the White man has touched the earth, i..."Everywhere the White man has touched the earth, it is sore."<BR/><BR/>"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?"<BR/>Red Jacket-Seneca<BR/><BR/>"We did not ask you white men to come here. The Great Spirit gave us this country as a home. You had <BR/>yours. We did not interfere with you."<BR/>Crazy Horse<BR/><BR/>"Did you know that trees can talk. Well they do. They talk to each other and they'll talk to you if you listen. Trouble is, white people don't listen. They never learned to listen to the Indians, so I don't suppose they will listen to the other voices in nature."<BR/>Walking Buffalo<BR/><BR/>In our war, money, stuff, debt, consume and religious insanity of the day, we have lost touch with the earth. <BR/><BR/>"The Spirit of the land hates them."<BR/>Wintu WomanDennisDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05069884969156562133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-67753152596562957892008-03-12T14:11:00.000+13:002008-03-12T14:11:00.000+13:00"There were many of us who were uncomfortable with..."There were many of us who were uncomfortable with the college's policy, but not even Herbert W. Armstrong could change that policy by fiat--amazing as that sounds."<BR/><BR/>Yes, it sounds very amazing, perhaps even far-fetched, considering HWA could change doctrinal stances by fiat (Pentecost, Make-up) when those doctrines were deeply ingrained in the psyches and lives of every member of the church- and the members accepted the new doctrines without much trouble (except for the enormous mental strain it must put on the brain to have to wrangle with that kind of COGnitave dissonance). While HWA coulndn't have rooted out racism in the hearts of evermy member, he could have easily issued a thunderous edict and at least expelled racism from policy and public speech. To think otherwise is being naive or dishonest Dart is full of it.<BR/><BR/>PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-63334661951625898852008-03-12T13:32:00.000+13:002008-03-12T13:32:00.000+13:00In the late 1970’s I gave a speech at a spokesman’...In the late 1970’s I gave a speech at a spokesman’s club ladies night, about the ‘Native American’ Chief Joseph, from the Nez Perce tribe, who tried to lead his people to the ‘safety’ of Canada, having to fight off the US Military virtually all the way. <BR/><BR/>I greatly admired this man, and in the speech paralleled him to being similar to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt.<BR/><BR/>The speech went down well, there were no adverse comments. Neither were there any follow-up comments from the ministry after the event. This was in England, so I don’t know what would have happened in southern USA.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I noticed that the UCG had a recent article quoting this same Chief Joseph in a very positive light.Questerukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06659962107808147107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-63956900035871071202008-03-12T12:27:00.000+13:002008-03-12T12:27:00.000+13:00Speaking of race, here is a idea even Herb would l...<A HREF="http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0803/opendoors.html" REL="nofollow">Speaking of race, here is a idea even Herb would love!</A> Sense of humor required...KScribehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07034049680872790004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-10736679533399785912008-03-12T12:03:00.000+13:002008-03-12T12:03:00.000+13:00Well Neo..all I can say is...Shook-mani-took-tonka...Well Neo..all I can say is...<BR/>Shook-mani-took-tonka Oh wachee<BR/><BR/>:)DennisDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05069884969156562133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-7234976754789052702008-03-12T11:51:00.000+13:002008-03-12T11:51:00.000+13:00Greg: I believe what Dart wrote about this. When...Greg:<BR/><BR/> I believe what Dart wrote about this. When you look at the part of society that the WCG lay members came from back in the Sixties, you can understand why. The Wichita, Kansas congregation in 1968 was remarkably homogeneous. Blue collar workers, limited education, limited income, almost all White. <BR/><BR/> Although it is hard to imagine any issue being bigger the HWA. <BR/><BR/> After Pasadena had created the Frankenstein monster, they could not get rid of it without alienating the base. This would translate directly into a reduction of tithe receipts. <BR/><BR/> Also, my guess is that this attitude towards races is still entrenched in the current Armstrongite derivative churches. <BR/><BR/>-- NeoNeothermhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546163563669263135noreply@blogger.com