Reading the comments section on this blog is sometimes a bit like entering a war zone: beware the spitballs!Genteel debate is more the style I had in mind way back when AW relaunched in this format, but I guess I didn't factor in the strength of the monochrome mindset that dominates among many disenchanted former devotees of Armstrongism. Yes, I'm talking about myself here too. Time, it seems, doesn't heal much. Express a contrary opinion and prepare to get both barrels. It's an online version of road rage. On the other hand, if some of the folk who erupt in graceless indignation here actually met their ideological opposites "in the flesh" I expect they'd be polite and politic in expressing their views, and even generous in their response. Don't we do just that with relatives and friends who have moved in a different direction? Go figure.
Do you believe in God? Uh, hang on a moment... define God. And what do you mean by believe... intellectual assent? So many of our "beliefs" are fashioned by our individual temperaments that I'm not too sure there's value in arguing the point over the finer points of theism vs. atheism, for example, let alone insulting those who don't see it with the precision and clarity we enjoy. As I've said here before, I'm not an atheist, but if you want to portray God as a Sky Father, well, I certainly don't believe that. Out race the literalists who protest that God is indeed a Big Man-shaped Bloke in the Sky (exhibit 1), while from the other side come equally strident voices protesting that the definitions are being changed on them in some kind of crafty sleight of hand to salvage the God Delusion.
We're living in a world where Christianity is being sucked out of Western society (except, it seems, in parts of the US.) The bulk of true believers are taking cover in reactionary or "feel good" churches, which is a ticket to nowhere ultimately. A minority are trying to future-proof their faith in a post-Enlightenment, post-modern world by re-envisioning God, the church and Jesus. One is a ghetto, the other is so elitist it makes precious little sense to anyone outside a certain liberal, educated demographic. Then there are those - including a lot of ex-WCG members - who have absolutely no interest in either option. Faced with the Gordian Knot, they simply whip out their vorpal blade and go snicker snack: problem solved!
- One, two! One, two! And through and through
- The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
- He left it dead, and with its head
- He went galumphing back.
Given that we are complex creatures who see the world variously, and that integrity necessarily takes on many shapes, it seems strange that folk who have been forced into such radical change and growth as we have through the shattering of the Armstrong idol, should end up screaming at each other and tossing insults like water bombs in a school playground.
What's the point, other than demonstrating that we're feeling a bit threatened? There are subtler options... maybe a pinch of humility, a cupful of well dried humor, and a splash of self deprecation?
34 comments:
Hey, Gavin.
Sorry about the spitballs. I've got comments in my high school yearbook about those!
I agree with you that we're faced with an amazingly complex (for lack of a better term) "learning experience". It is often difficult to respond on occasions when we feel as if we have been misjudged based on stereotype, or somehow the point made was missed by others. Some of us do become animated, and this tends to create quite a flurry of blog activity.
I'm going to attempt to neutrally express a few trends we've seen which occasionally make me scratch my head. I guess we could call these "pet peeves".
Real and/or perceived "agendas".
The quoting of non-Armstrong
"fringe" theories as being fact.
It wasn't bad enough that Herb used these on us? Now we need to dig up new ones? To me, that's an Armstrong logic hangover!
The quoting of apocryphal gospels by non-believers.
I-O thinking, with no shades of grey, no reading between the lines.
Questioning of intelligence or methodology rather than adequately countering or addressing a point.
The need to place others in "boxes" rather than seeing each as an individual.
Some nicknames are cool. Others are derogatory and ratchet up or inflame the rhetoric.
Well, that's a few. I've deliberately included some acts of which I am guilty just so nobody feels picked upon. I think we should all realize by now that nobody is winning any of the discussions or arguments here. The best any of us can do is to perhaps stimulate thought for one another. We all find ourselves on opposing sides from time to time, but I seriously doubt that anyone wishes another dead.
BB
One of my professors studied this phenomenon, and termed in transactional distance. The research was primarily in the field of distance education.
During one online course, we told to comment in anonymous mode rather than showing our real names. It left some of us with the nagging feeling of Who said that?
Being a college teacher, I encounter some shy and "silent" students while chatting online. They would never speak in class, but this "distance" drops the inhibition.
Gavin said...
"...it seems strange that folk who have been forced into such radical change and growth as we have through the shattering of the Armstrong idol, should end up screaming at each other and tossing insults like water bombs in a school playground."
Probably the best posting on the WCG experience ever Gavin. Of late, comments on many topics have been little more than "yeah?" ... "Oh Yeah!"
Usually what happens is a few snarky painbodies appear in the place of the more genuine and reflective self and off we go. We all do it and my own "painbody" lies about two inches behind my eyes ready to take over. It's not easy to tell it to go to hell.
Since my weekend job at the local hospital dried up, I had time to attend the local Unity Church where maybe I could find some peace. Unity is of course a very liberal, all is One approach to God.
I sat through the service hearing a good message that I could have easily given myself. The songs were very uplifting yet when projected on the screen, tweeked me into recalling my last days in WCG when I was being programed to sing "Shine Jesus Shine." (I guess when one realizes Jesus may be the SUN of God, it ironically fit.)
On top of that, I had rented Unity Church for Sabbath during the last four years of my WCG experience. So there was that lecturn where I had given hundreds of sermons myself including my last one. I think I spent most of the sermon reflecting all that has happened in the last decade both as a minister and personally. Wow..ouch...what is..is.
But it was still Church. They still wanted volunteers for this or that and they were arguing over who and how the labringth (sp) should be built. Someone quit the committee. So "where two or three are gathered together..."one is in charge, one does what they are told, and one has to argue with it, was still part of the show.
I always called Unity Church "the Church of the Exiled" since it attracted all those that other churches wouldn't take or those who wouldn't go to them.
I didn't find enough to go back for. Perhaps belonging to anything is just not possible anymore.
Anyway, good posting.
Gavin, I think that under normal circumstances, time does heal. But, as I have said before, the COG experience is so much more than a cult, a traditional ordinary church, brainwashing, or joining a fraternity.
It involves the deepest human spiritual desires, needs, and emotions. In a sense, the people who post here are fortunate. Most folks on this Earth are clueless about all of the issues "discussed" here.
And I don't think God is finished with any of you yet.
Fundamentalist Christianity is making one last brave, well funded stand in the South East United States. The danger of their theocratic ideals has been manifested by the eight reign of G.W.Bush. This fanatical minority is being successfully opposed with logic, science and rational argument.
My two cents.
The best thing about this whole thing is that...
Ron has really painted himself into a corner claiming he and his wife are The Two Witnesses!!! The shelf life of this lie won't be too long and it will be impossible for Ron to explain (attempt to spiritualize away, probably) his way out of it. It’ll be fun to watch him try though!!
There's some good entertainment here and in the near future. I love reading whatever Ron writes. I just get to giggling and laughing. But, seriously he has painted himself and his wife into a corner of a burning house. (snicker)
What are some of the things ole Ronny will have to do and quickly too. Let's see, I hope to get them all.
He'll have to declare the beginning of his Witnessing, Prophesying, and Punishing ministry, a period of 1260 days.
And this isn't lackadasical Witnessing, not just speaking from a platform to a congregation, or tapes of him speaking. NO... FOR PEOPLE TO CELEBRATE AND GIVE GIFTS UPON THE DEATH OF THE TWO WITNESSES... Ron's message is going to be condeming and inflammatory. And what else?
WELL, how about prophesying? Yep, that's one of the Two Witness duties, too.
Ron's taken a couple of shots at that. Ron, we're hanging on your words, carefull that you don't hang yourself with them.
You’ve claimed to be one of The Witnesses, so preach and prophesy away. We're listening with baited breath.
BUT, thats not all. RON AND HIS WIFE WILL BE ABLE TO...if anyone is wanting to injure them (PERHAPS LOCK THEM IN FEDERAL PRISON- THEREBY STOPPING THEM FROM PREACHING), they can issue fire from their mouths devouring their enemies. Hopefully, this would exclude skeptics like me. Believe me, I'll be one of the first to snap to when Ron and his wife breath fire, turn water into blood, and stop rain, and bring plagues through God's power.
Any one wanting to injure them, in that way they must be killed. (This would seem to be caused by the MESSAGE THEY PREACH AND PLAGUES THEY BRING, NO?) Perhaps, the Anti-Christ will send people to kill Ron and his Wife? But, we haven't heard from the Anti-Christ yet have we? HMM…
Well, Ron and his wife are not as we have seen defenseless. Ron and his wife will be able to stop it from raining anywhere in the world. WOW! That might be what pisses some people off.
Hold on now, I'm not the one claiming to be one of the TWO WINESSES SENT BY GOD.
Ron and his Wife will also be able to smite the land with plagues AS OFTEN AS THEY WISH.
This will be very impressive and will occur in the one thousand two hundred and sixty days of their ministry! Which may have already begun!!
According to Ron, we're moving into that ministry period we may even perhaps already be in it!!! Whoo-Hoo!!!
Ron and his wife are going to do some pretty spectacular things too as we move toward Christ's Return.
I, for one, am looking forward to Ron vindicating himself, showing himself to be a TRUE PROPHET OF GOD.
Of course, his followers also look forward to this because they have put their money where their faith is. And Ron has, before God and man claimed he and his wife are God's Two Witnesses of Revelation!!!!
Well, Ron, we're watching. We're waiting. The clock you set is ticking.
Dill Weed
I very much am in general agreement with your comments, Gavin.
The whole issue of human perception - the why and how of arriving at metaphysical conclusions - is much more complicated than most realize, as many factors feed into the process.
Personally, I find it incredibly fascinating.
Retired American newsman Walter Cronkite has said (along with many others) that fundamentalist religion will pose the single greatest threat to mankind in the 21 century.
I have learned a LOT from reading the various comments on this site - even the more impulsive and less articulate ones. It's remarkable to me how some folks think very deeply about such important issues, and this is typically reflected in their comments - and how little thought others put into arriving at and forming their beliefs.
But it takes all kinds of folks to make a world!
"And I don't think God is finished with any of you yet."
Larry, I couldn't agree more. The Great Pumpkin is very patient, even with you Christian-types. He may very well be using your belief in Jehovah as a stepping stone- leading right into his loving vines.
Let us all unite as one, and worship the true Kreator, The Great Pumpkin.
I feel better already.
Dennis, care to lead songs? How about a rousing version of "Behold, Photosynthesis Will Occur?"
Paul Ray
A True Believer
Words of Tacitus:
"Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius (14-37) at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
Heh heh, kind of like today, ain't it? And, our prisons are full of Christians. 75% of the population of the U.S. but 95% of the prison population. I reckon Christians should still be considered "mischievous".
Anonymous 12:34. Anonymous commenting is actually recommended as an educational exercise? Wow. This changes everything! Like a banana, I think it's got a certain amount of a peel! It might even help deflect some of those spitballs we've been slinging.
BB
Well Corky, Christians never get fair treatment from the Press. Some things never change.
"Perhaps belonging to anything is just not possible anymore."
Why is it necessary?
Gavin said...
Genteel debate is more the style I had in mind way back when AW relaunched in this format....
Gavin,
The AW blog could be useful for such things as exposing the false prophets on the COG scene, their wrong guesses, and their bad behavior. AW could actually help people by telling the REAL TRUTH (no apologies to David Pack) about what goes on in the COG scene. People cannot get this sort of information from their official church sources.
However, if you try to find fault with the Bible, you can be sure that it will just show a serious fault with your own self. By now you should have seen enough of the "thinking," language, and behavior of those who reject the Bible (including the Sunday keeping sinners who reject it) to know better. Or did you think that atheists could refrain from their angry swearing and depravity long enough to pass themselves off as "genteel" and civilized?
Trader With Style here - just forgot my Google password. I'll add a humble, but hearty "so be it" to Gavin's comments, particularly the "snicker" application.
I invite a few contributors on this blog to consider that when more than a few former WCG members transverse from their old beliefs into a new model, many fervently proclaim their "new truth" -- be it atheism or whatever "ism" -- with the same zest and vertical intolerant mindset that they possessed regarding former Armstrong-fueled beliefs.
If humans are good at anything, they make great "label-making machines," slapping on superfical tags that mean little but sound great. I would suggest that a variant on the Monty Python theme -- "I was an idiot, but then I got better" -- appears to hold little weight here in terms of justification.
We tend to forget that the book of Acts represents a considerable amount of open conflict between 1st century Christians, many of whom were eye-witnesses or 1st generation believers. Was that a bad thing? Measured conflict requires us to consider our belief structures in ways that can strengthen us in important ways. Ad hominem tautology only brings us back to the very things we purport to abhor.
Forgive me for indulging in perhaps a little "master of the obvious" here; hopefully reasonable dissent can continue to challenge and strengthen us as we all find our way.
"I invite a few contributors on this blog to consider that when more than a few former WCG members transverse from their old beliefs into a new model, many fervently proclaim their "new truth" -- be it atheism or whatever "ism" -- with the same zest and vertical intolerant mindset that they possessed regarding former Armstrong-fueled beliefs."
That was Gavin's point, I believe, and it's one I have been making ever since the evangelizing Christians started not-so-gently trying to push me into their black-and-white mindset back on the old Shadows forum.
The thing that pissed me off about Shadows (oooooh I cussed that means I'm demon-possessed --- NOT) was the hypocrisy, not the religion. They said they were all things to all people, but patently they were not.
At least at ISA, we guarantee that we are NOT "all things to all people", and never intend to be. (At least I never intend to be.)
Gadzooks! Man the bazookas! De-rack the rakes! Un-pitch the forks!
Light the torches amidst this verdant darkness!
Never again shall we be savaged by the sheeple again!
Anonymous 4:52 wrote:
"However, if you try to find fault with the Bible, you can be sure that it will just show a serious fault with your own self."
Sorry, Anon, free exchange of ideas just doesn't allow you to put certain ideas or sources "off limits." This is what Dark Age Christianity did. This is what the world of Islam does, at threat of death. And the terrible results are recorded in the history books in the former's case, and both history and current newspapers in the latter's.
You are in favor of debate...as long as your cherished foundations are protected - that way you don't have to argue for them nor demonstrate them with logic, evidence and fact.
The real world of intellectual exchange just doesn't work according to your limits and restrictions. Better stick to the stifling confines of religion - that way you can evade having to prove and/or document your assertions.
"Or did you think that atheists could refrain from their angry swearing and depravity..."
Oh, the depths of depravity that I have foundered in! Swearing! Eating shrimp! Christmas Shopping! Uttter depravity! Do not turn Thine Eye away from me, Oh Great Pumpkin, er, I mean Jesus!
Paul Ray
A most excellent post Gavin.
I found the predecessor to this website back in 2003. I was taken aback and yet sucked in at the same time. I finally put on my big boy pants and could sort through the various opines/perspectives whether humorous, impudent, or bitter anger, and usually appreciate the person behind the comments. I became even more understanding of others once I found myself "de-deaconed" and disfellowshipped from UCG and supposedly outside the bounds of my Lord's grace. I have actually learned a number of things from folks posting here; particularily from Dennis, Larry and you, Gavin. Your personal example of open heartedness to people of various stripes and personal baggage is encouraging.
Larry is absolutely right that God is not finished with any of us yet. I personally believe there are many atheists who will fare far better in the judgement than most ministers of cog-land (or most Christian churches). I know most "non-believers" would find the previous statement humorous since they do not believe in God hence there is no judgement, however, I strongly believe we are all spiritual brothers by us all having the same spiritual origin. The name and understanding of our origin is different in different cultures and places over the ages, but there is the source of life for each of us. Anyhow, the God whom I know in a personal, experiental way after dumping the cultic mindset of cog, does not seem to have a terminal view of humanity so then I cannot and should not either.
Dennis, I have a very hard time attending any church as well. I visit a few churches locally from time to time, but the machine of each is very distracting to the spirit. I find some spiritual benefit either attending or preaching the chapel service at the local homeless and rehab shelter. Since there is no money involved it seems to be a simple and rather focused lot, and I enjoy discussions and prayer with others there as they are usually quite genuine and full of struggle.
Thanks again, Gavin.
jds
I might remind the Purple one that at Shadows Forum there were a number of very kind and very concerned ones that just couldn't accept 'let the dead bury the dead'. That's more than you can say for the elitist Armstrongists, who would never come back to pick up and help someone. There's lots of lessons to be learned from Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Not too many people are willing to dive into the bowels of hell to help a brother or sister.
JDS,
You mentioned the places where you can usually see God working most dramatically, the places where you would normally expect people to be hopeless. Those folks have had everything stripped away from them, and are more open to a genuine spiritual experience. Anyone who has been close to anyone in such circumstances knows this. The problem is that such people, by their very nature and appearance, tend to repel about 99%of the general public, so very few get the opportunity of learning what they could teach us. They know all too well what Jesus meant when he said to pray: "Give us this day our daily bread".
"I might remind the Purple one that at Shadows Forum there were a number of very kind and very concerned ones that just couldn't accept 'let the dead bury the dead'."
That's right, they viewed us as spiritually "dead" because we never converted, under the onslaught of their omnipresent altar calls.
And don't even get me started on the preferential treatment Christians got away with, from the Christian admins; whereas, the atheists (myself included) got our wrists slapped on a daily basis, for daring to ask questions or raise topics that might "shake the faith". (When it was supposed be 100% equal for everyone.)
Don't even get me started on the number of times threads were hijacked and detoured into harping altar calls, if they threatened to veer into non-believer territory. The way they would work it is, one of us would start a thread in the Atheist Discussion section, one of the Christians would be assigned (or took it upon themselves) to post an altar call, thus "allowing" (yeah right) the Christian admins to move the thread to the "safe" Christian Discussion area, and everyone got to pat themselves and each other on the back about how much they loved Jebus. Sorry, I mean Horus. Leaving the original discussion completely and effectively shut down. (Yeah, that's really "respecting all paths" right there, isn't it?)
Nothing wrong with that, no, nope, nothing at all. "Kind" and "concerned" and "caring" ohhhhhhhh suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.
And I've a lovely bridge to sell you.
Another example, someone posted an atheist quotations thread (in the appropriate Atheist Discussion section of the forum), titled "Atheist Favourite Sayings", which was immediately hijacked by insulting comments and bitter sarcasm from a Christian believer. Do you know what the Christian admins did about this?
Not a bloody goddamned thing, until it was explicitly pointed out to them that, hey, this might be out of line here you know?? Yet, if one were to even hint at something that didn't 100% agree with the Christian worldview, it was an admin warning for you!
Don't get me started on Shadows. It was a shell game from the start, and I'm only sorry I stuck with it for as long as I did. I might not have some of the "baggage" I am currently dealing with, vis a vis fundamentalist Christianity, if I hadn't.
Oh, and the evidence of my recollections above? Has been toasted. "J" decided to delete all the incriminating material when he "revamped" the forum.
(And look how successful that one was. Not.)
Don't speak to me about how kind and caring and concerned the Christians on Shadows were, anon. They were cold-hearted and self-centred and self-deluded. The way Christians are.
I was an admin on the shadows forum. I had to leave when I tried to run things fairly and got pissed on by "J" (hey, that word's in the bible) and I decided it wasn't worth sticking around anymore.
In retrospect I should have stood up a little more. After all, I owned the server, I could have at least insisted that he follow the rules that he created.
Oh well. What's done is done.
Just a thought:
On personal growth through the various experiences of the WCG experience, as perceived by each individual.
"We can't wait until we know for certain God exists or that Jesus lived, or that this or that religion is true, before we embark on a journey of self discovery. Such procrastination, said the Buddha, resembles the behavior of a man who has been wounded by a poisoned arrow, but who resists the attempts of his companions to pull the arrow out until he has found out the name, the home town, the stature, the colour and the caste of the man who fired it."
The Gospel Zodiac/Darlison, pg 59
One can spin their story of how the arrow hit them, the time of day, what direction it came from and who did it until ones brains fall out. But a useful blog on such matters needs to be one that helps pull the arrow out and begin both treatment and healing.
Just yelling "I'm hit, I'm hit...%&&$%&%*^^$#* I'm hit," may get someone's attention, but it doesn't get the arrow out. Demanding the arrow stay in a bit longer until it really hurts, isn't ultimately helpful either. But hey, yelling is a part of getting some help with the hit. I just imagine if one is still yelling for help, when help is available, there is a certain detachement taking place.
However, we all perceive our wounds differently and when we tire of the pain, out it comes.
AW, to me, serves as a good arrow puller though we all perceive our wounds differently and our arrows stuck in different places in our bodies. It does make a difference where it hit you, however, when poisoned, not so much.
IMO
This is somewhat of an interesting phenomenon. Usually, when one considers the atheist, one envisions a toughened individual, perhaps somewhat independent, one who goes through life rarely considering things spiritual.
If you ask a typical atheist whether he or she feels persecuted or embattled, they would probably answer in the negative, with the possible exception of certain times of the year, such as Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving. Those are the times of the year during which the last visible vestiges of Christianity are permitted to manifest themselves during this, the post-Christian era.
The WCG atheist differs from this mode, at least the visible ones on the forums who are daily confronting past issues from Armstrongism, as well as the religious alternatives that former brethren have often employed as their own solution to the Armstrong problem.
Also, the WCG atheist often has close relatives, who could only be described as being the religiously rabid, e.g. continuing members of WCG or perhaps one of the splinter groups. These relatives may occasionally be confrontational, based on concerns or other emotions.
The WCG atheist has undoubtedly had experience with an extreme religion, one of the worst examples of the breed. This leads to greater passion, a passion which is often seen by believers as nearly a religion unto itself.
Usually, when one thinks of persecution, one thinks of the followers of Jesus Christ. But, one can honestly understand how a WCG atheist could see himself as being persecuted, due to the unique circumstances and pressures which have led each to their non-belief.
It is how each chooses to deal with such circumstances that provides or denies healing. Those of us with WCG backgrounds often find ourselves in the same ratcage, a ratcage that was created by a man, Herbert W. Armstrong. It's tempting for the rats to forget this, and to direct animosity towards one another, whether or not this is actually and logically justifiable. One can see why either atheists or Christians would feel persecuted or embattled under such circumstances.
I think all these little BlogWars are very silly. The respective owners need to smoke a joint or at least have a pint.
Byker Bob Lives!
Paul Ray
Anonymous,
Sorry, Herbert W. Armstrong didn't create any ratcages.
Paul Ray,
Gotta pass on the J-bird these days, but I agree with you about the blog wars. They make for excitement, I mean, I'm sure everyone's been glued to the blogs over the past week or so, but they can result in severely hurt feelings if one party or another doesn't have the common sense to back off at just the right juncture. Believe I'll take the high road here (no pun intended!)
The funny thing is, I don't believe a lot of the rhetoric is personal. I mean certain people have at least three of my email addresses if they really wanted to have personal discussion regarding any of these matters. That it all plays out instead on the forums and blogs shows me that some are indulging in a bit of posturing for the onlookers.
I've said all along, I believe salvation is going to be universal. We'll have to party and have a good chuckle about all of this when we get there. I've heard that my Skybuddy makes some darned good wine!
BB
PS: Dev isn't me, so have everybody be good to him or her.
Ex WCG make good atheists because we started with a belief system that deconstructed christianity and reconstructed it into an alternative fundamentalist approach (like the Mormons). When this belief system collapsed there was nothing left. So those good looking AC grads/WCG field reps in nice suits (like those fresh faced Mormon reps) didn't have all the answers after all.
AC grads in suits:
That is the best explanation I have heard of that to date.
Hi Gavin,
Just a note to say thanks for putting AW up, in whatever form. Since the days of the old website, your service has been one of the best sources of COG-related news and information available.
We certainly don't mind you taking the occasional vacation as you did recently -- you definitely deserve a break from time to time! But please don't make the vacation permanent anytime soon. I'm sure sometimes it doesn't seem worth the hours you put into it, but you benefit more people than you know.
Libro
(I second Paul's motion -- Viva el Byker Bob!)
AC Grads in Suits, Charlie's right. That's a 100% spot on the money assessment. And why I stand by the assertion that we were never Christians, and why I always felt uncomfortable if someone identified me as same, or asked me if I was one. Christians were "the harlot daughters of the Great Whore of Babylon" after all.
We were never Christians.
Angry Beavers was a great show. SPOOT!
Post a Comment